I have read that the effects of MaF often take 6 months, which can feel excruciatingly long. also, I believe the UA book has a story about a nordic skier who was doing huge volumes of high intensity work but had plateaued in speed. it took a longish period of low intensity to reset and ultimately become faster at high intensity.
brianbauer
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ParticipantParticipantbrianbauer on December 14, 2021 at 2:19 pm · in reply to: what does this tell me about my AeT and AnT levels? #60803
Scott,
ok, so I just finished my “indoor skimo workout” and I added the 1 x 3 kicker at the end. I maxed out my incline at 12% and increased the mph by a few clicks. here is what happened:
– because I alternate 20min running intervals and 12 min ME strength, that meant that I hit the 1 x 3 min kicker after doing my last set of ME
– my HR during ME is between 135 140. so today I started the 1×3 with a HR of 135
– within 30 seconds in the 1×3 my HR got to 155 but never got higher. I know from experience for me to break 160 and get closer to max HR takes much longer than 3 mins…basically my HR did not have time to synch up with my PE.
– my PE during the ME was close to a 9, and maybe I could have held on for 4 mins, but prob not longer.my question is this: if I am correct in assuming that the point of the 1×3 is to get close to max HR, I think I could more likely achieve that if I did the 1×3 immediately following my last 20 min run interval…that would put my HR at the start of the 1×3 somewhere between 155-160, and it should climb from there..making the 1×3 closer to a max HR effort. how does that sound? doing it this would make the 1×3 much harder, but I think that is the point?
Participantjt, I believe my LT has gone up in the past 8 weeks, but its what I call “marginal gain” territory. eg. gone up from maybe 157 to 160. I do not imagine I will get to say an LT of 165, given than my observed max HR is prob 170. if I believe my LT is about 90% of max HR at the moment, what I really want is to ensure that I can complete something like 5 sets of LT efforts, with descents in between( simulated indoor doing ME strength).
Regarding the outdoor workouts at avg 18% grade: I have experimented alot in trail races. what I have found is that I am more efficient power hiking vs running on steeps. for example – I can power-hike at 16-17min/mile while staying below LT, but if I try to run the steeps at 15min/mile, the amount of increased effort it takes to gain 1min/mile is simply not worth it in a longer race. when dry-land training at the local resort on steeps, I am using poles and taking elongated steps at a snappy cadence. in between pitches there are a some short sections where it flattens a bit. in these flatter sections I will sometimes do 30 – 60 seconds of bounding. bounding will spike my HR above LT so I keep the bounding efforts short.
basically I will run up to about 12%. above 12% I’m faster and more efficient power-hiking. its worth adding that I am built more like a bulldozer than a deer.( 5’11 187lbs…and I’m about as lean as I dare be).
Participantbrianbauer on December 14, 2021 at 7:42 am · in reply to: what does this tell me about my AeT and AnT levels? #60781thanks Scott. I appreciate the validation of my workout structure. I will try the 1 x3 min add-on. my treadmill only goes to 12%, but I can also increase the speed a touch to get the desired effort.
I will add that I cannot imagine doing these intense workouts with a clear goal. my goal is to be as prepared as possible for skimo racing. when doing these workouts I visualize myself ascending in a skimo race and crushing it – thats the carrot. the stick is: I tell myself that if I don’t push hard now, I will regret it during races, and regret that you could have prepared more is the worst.
Participantjt, I am 51 and also race ultra trail. the vast majority of my training has been done in the 135 range for ultra distances. this will be my first year racing skimo, and I knew I needed to work on 2 things to prepare: uphill intensity and ME leg strength. for the past 8 weeks I have been doing 4 reps of 20 min uphill intervals at 10% on a treadmill, with my HR at between 155-160. I believe 160 to be my LT based on lots of hours training and anecdotal notes of when lactic acid starts. on weekends I do 5 reps of 15 min intervals at the local ski resort at an avg grade of 18%, with HR in same LT range. when I started these workouts 8 weeks ago I was huffing and puffing with 1 interval. now I do multiple sets with ME leg work in between intervals without stopping. my PE has remained the same in these workouts at about an 8. I have had to increase pace, incline and ME reps to maintain the right heart rate range. your age and HR range seems similar to mine, so maybe you will get some benefit from what I have described.
Participantmy ultra trail racing training includes any number of back to back long runs on weekends. the 2nd day long run is designed to be done on somewhat tired legs. for me, these long runs are done at an easy pace. back to back efforts must be trained for, and managing your effort during each is very important. eg. when I do back to backs, I think of it as a 2 day event, not 2, one day events…
ParticipantI’ll share another story about indoor training: about 15 years ago I was a Cat 3/4 road bike racer, mainly doing crits. I did 99% of my training before work on a Schwinn spin bike using only a HR monitor. my outside work included a Wednesday night club practice crit, then races on weekends. everyone told me I could not be competitive by training on a spin bike. my last year racing I was 2nd in the state champs crit race…I went off the front at about 1k to go, I was only pipped at the line because I lacked the experience to simply look behind me and see the guy coming. I made a poster of me losing by about 2″. also note Taggart VanEtten.. set the 100 mile treadmill record and translated that ability outside at Tunnel Hill. he trains mainly on a treadmill.
indoor training works, especially if you have a treadmill with incline.
Participantthe consistency of GU gels makes me want to puke even when I am not racing. I also don’t like flavors. my gel choice is Maurten. less viscous, tastes like nothing, you don’t need to take with water. I will say that the Maurten 100 with caffeine has kind of nasty taste, but without caffeine has no taste. I also like Maurten drink mix, but recently have been favoring Beta Fuel.
Participantif I am racing less than 6-7 hours, I only take in drink mix and gels. if racing longer than that, I will eat some real food( and starting before the 6hr mark). so think about time duration not distance.
Participantmy goto for a long time was Quaker instant oatmeal. sure its not the best choice, but it worked for me: tasted ok, easy to make and travel with, filled me up, no digesting issues. then one day I decided that I don’t really like oatmeal, and was just eating it for the reasons stated. I thought about what I do like, and landed on: 2 slices of whole grain bread, chunky peanut butter, organic raw honey( the white stuff, like paste). I *love* peanut butter and honey sandwiches. if I am flying to a race, I still pack oatmeal. if I am driving, I eat my favorite sandwich. when the mood strikes I bake my own rustic bread and the sandwich meter goes to 11.
Participantbrianbauer on December 9, 2021 at 8:01 am · in reply to: How to balance ski season and ultra-running #60525I never stop running workouts during ski season. skiing does not replicate the pounding on muscles and joints experienced during running. run workouts can be easier, but in my opinion its far better to maintain some running every week.
Participantis your “mountain race” a Sky race type, or a trail race in the mountains? training for the terrain matters.
Participantbrianbauer on December 9, 2021 at 7:50 am · in reply to: Short steps. How to increase step length? #60523watch videos of some of the best mountain trail runners in the world compete in the Golden Trail series, usually about marathon distance. you will see power hikers and runners maintaining the same pace on steep climbs. in interviews, some people( both men and women) say “I never hike, I always run”. some say ” I find power hiking more efficient”. I do not believe there is a right or wrong answer. also, watch videos of elite Spartan racers competing at places like Big Bear, Mammoth and Lake Tahoe. before you scoff at Spartan, elites like Atkins and Webster are top performers in trail races like Broken Arrow, and they also cross over into Skimo( and do very well). power hiking vs running is intentional with these runners, and Spartan coverage on YouTube is excellent. watch how the “walkers” and “runners” maintain the same pace. my advice for you is: be less concerned with whether you are hiking or running the steeps, focus more on efficient climbing based on your personal physiology and fitness.
ParticipantI am not a doctor, but I can tell you what I have been doing. I finished my ultra trail racing season in late summer at Broken Arrow. after that race I needed to shift to Skimo race prep. I needed 2 things that are generally not in my ultra plan: 1) ME strength 2) high intensity intervals. I work on these things both indoor and outdoor:
Indoors on treadmill
1. 10 min warmup
2. 20 mins interval at 10% grade
3. 3×15 single leg box steps, 3×15 single leg lunges: repeat 3x(180 reps per leg, 540 total reps after 3 complete sets)
4. repeat 2 and 3 three times with no breaks. takes about 1:45 with short cool down jog
my HR is slow to get elevated, but by the mid-point of my 2nd run interval my HR holds steady about 88-90% of my max( max established as highest recorded rate during shorter races, which is slightly above 220-age)
by the end of the workout, I have 40 mins+ in my target HR range. my target range is the point just below LT. I understand my LT HR to be about 90% of max HR based on hours of training. above that HR, I feel lactic build-up. Note: my perceived effort during intervals is about a 7.5. I can comfortably hold the HR for extended periodsoutside
I do laps of my local ski resort. there is a section of trail that is .73 miles with 697ft of elevation gain = avg grade of 18%.
1. warmup lap
2. 4x laps at LT. takes about 15 mins to go up at a PE of about 8. down takes about 10 mins at slow jog
3. if I am feeling frisky, I may throw in some leg bounding for 30 secs, once per lap
4. cool down jog back to carI apologize for not being as technical as some of you guys when it comes to talking about training. and after writing up this workout, I realize that it may actually be closer to a Z4 workout( I have the UA book, but I am not fluent in all the terminology)
what I can say is that after 7 weeks of doing the indoor workout 2x per week, and the outdoor workout 1x per week: my ME leg strength has improved significantly. I have had to increase my indoor pace by .4 mph to hit and hold my target HR. I take 2 rest days per week, an do low intensity running on the other day(s). 2 important notes: while 3x/week hard workouts seems like too much, because I ran ultras all season, my current weekly volume is much, much less than it was during ultra season. I am a Masters level competitor, and I need 2 full days between ME strength workouts. also note, at week 5 I had a 5 days business trip and could only workout once. on my return, I did the outdoor workout and in 4 laps bested my per-lap PR by 1 min per lap …which. tells me that the extended rest was a good thing…but that was intentional because I knew the trip was coming and would afford a rest
ParticipantI also come from an ultra trail running background. in the summer I sometimes drink 1 liter per hour, for 6-7 hours and still end up out of homeostasis for a few hours after. now that its finally colder, and training in 25-35 degree weather, 500ml/90 mins is more than enough. I also dress lightly and need to keep moving to stay warm, but sweat loss is much less. my skimo race pack has a soft flask holder in the shoulder strap good for a 500ml bottle. the crampon pocket in the back is also good for another 1-2 bottles depending on how long I am out. unlike running races, aid stations in skimo races do not appear to be a Thing.