Related question…
How does AeT as used here relate to first and second ventilatory threshold?
I had the Met testing done at UC Davis and I’m trying to correlate those threshold results with UA terminology.
AshRick
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ParticipantParticipant
A Coros Pace 2 watch is reasonably priced, and its app seamlessly uploads to TP. I’ve been on a Coros/TP combo for the past 18 months and it’s great.
The Coros app is also useful on its own. They’re doing good work over there.
ParticipantMy AeT HR (as defined here and confirmed at UC Davis lab) is 149. As Scott has written, now that I’m very fit, running at that HR is hard work. My “easy” long run HR is now around 135. I have a decent pace as low as 129. A year ago, 129 was walking.
I plan to sit on about 130 HR on flats, and 35 on climbs, in the first 5-6 hours of my next 100. And then go largely on PE. The big advantage of watching HR early is the avoid going out too fast. At the start of a 100, we’re often in lifetime best shape, and fully rested for the first time in six months. It’s really easy to go too hard.
On the other hand, Camille Herron says she just gets to 75% of her max HR and stays there. Works for her!
ParticipantScott Molina, multi time world champion triathlete and now a coach, says…
Training in the purely aerobic zone with consistency and volume gives you a 90% chance of reaching 90% of your potential.
And that is better than most of us ever achieve.
ParticipantA recommendation from my experience over the last year…do’nt neglect long flat-ground runs. If we’re always on rolling terrain, I think we can get mediocre at hills and flat. The focused 2-3 hour flat runs made me much more economical and smooth (and faster) on the flats.
Then do dedicated hill workouts separately. After all, triathletes don’t do hardly any extended bike/run combined workouts. They work on them separately, and put it all together now and then and for races. Same with medley swimmers — work on four strokes in dedicated workouts, them put them together now and then as a drill.
ParticipantFelipe — I just got around to seeing your posts. Comparing to my test…
First, all of my HR zones are much lower than yours. Product of age and genetics, mainly.
My crossover fat/carb point is at 149 HR, which is also the top end of my Zn2. At the low end of that range (<141bpm), I am burning 185cal carb/hour, or less. Which is great, because I’ll do any long trek or ultra run well under 141 HR. That is easy to fuel. Judd told me I can improve on that with some fat adaptation in the final weeks before a big event. Then carb load day before and day of.
At the top of Zn2 (approx. marathon pace), I’m burning as much as 310cal/hour. That’s tougher to stay on top of, but I’d only need to do it for <4 hours. Regular body stores plus ~200cal/hour would do it.
As speed improves at a given HR, that speed can be a product of economy, but in a well-trained athlete it will mostly be because you’re burning energy faster. All else equal, the athlete that burns energy the fastest will run the fastest. HR can stay low with improving pace because the muscle cells and mitochondria pull more O2 out of each passing milliliter of blood. Same number of heartbeats and breaths — more power output.
Side note on economy — I’ve been practicing a shuffle running style in anticipation of needing it late in a 100 miler (shuffling meaning…no flight phase to the running gait; think “race walking,” but without the locked knee). At first, holding pace and switching to the shuffle caused my HR to bump up a few beats, and PE to increase. That hints at losing some economy. After a few weeks of regular miles doing it, HR and PE are now the same whether I do standard running or the shuffle, at modest paces.
ParticipantWith AnT at 182 — hard to believe your AeT is 102, and only walking speed. Impossible, really.
Not surprised by your track test. Your HR should not drift at all when walking for an hour. The target HR in a drift test is the *highest* HR with minimal drift over one hour. Every effort level lower than that will have minimal drift as well.
It looks like that lab test didn’t properly determine your AeT. I had a lab test done, and it was spot-on to my self-administered drift test.
Have you tried to do a track drift test using what you currently perceive as “long run” pace and HR?
ParticipantI did my first organized 50k recently. 6500ft total vert, and about 1200ft right off the starting line. Going by my perceived pace/effort on that type grade, and “calibrated ventilation,” I felt that I was starting out ok. But my HR was mid-150s, and I should be running a 6 hour event at mid-130s. Weather was cool. It worried me at first, but I just stopped looking at my watch and settled in.
HR stayed way above what I would have aimed for, over the entire event. But I finished strong, doing the last tough 8.5 miles of each loop just nine seconds apart.
So…race day HR might be a little on the high side and still be OK. Excitement, competition, caffeine, etc.
ParticipantI used LaSportiva Mutants for a while. But the sole is a little soft — rocks starting hurting my feet after a few hours.
Recently got the Karacal. Wow. Lovely shoe — cushioned but with great rock protection. Nice roomy toe box. Superb grip.
I’ll be wearing those on the segment of Leadville over Hope Pass and back. Rocky on the back side.
ParticipantSince I’m in final build toward Leadville, I’m going out of my way to run in the hottest part of the day. Adaptation comes on fast. But I can hardly carry enough water!
Comment above caught my eye…”when I saw Steve/Scott talk they suggested having a low and higher elevation AeT/AnT since your HR is compressed at altitude. ”
What does that mean? “Compressed.” I’m going to an altitude event and really don’t know what to expect with respect to HR Zones. I’ll be there 10 days early so I should be able to get in some runs and hikes and learn something.
Anybody have any feedback on what a sea-level resident will see for HR at 10k ft? For reference, I would normally look to settle in at low 130’s HR in an ultra. Easy cruising pace. My AeT is around 148-150.
ParticipantRight…the treadmill paces were all a bit faster than what I do outside; the PE matched HR zones. I mentally adjusted!
ParticipantAshRick on June 24, 2021 at 12:00 pm · in reply to: Replace Running with Cycling in Cardio training #55092Yes, I’ve been liking the bike uphill, ride down routine to get in more vert without the downhill pounding. Ride standing, not sitting. Raise the handlebars so you can stand quite upright. You’d want to emulate hard hiking — lead leg out, lift body over it with torso over hips. Standing on a regular bike setup will have the bars too low and you’ll be hunched over.
With the gearing available on a bike, you can make this as hard or easy as needed. If knee is complaining, keep the gearing low and cadence up. If standing on the pedals still hurts, try moving saddle as far forward as you can and do seated pedaling. Again, trying to emulate hiking body positions.
But the perfect setup would be a ski resort with gondola down.
ParticipantAs a 60-year-old whose HR zones seem to be about the same as when I was 45…maybe 5 bpm lower now, at most.
I’m way slower. It’s maddening sometimes. I ran some 1:50 half marathons off the bike in triathlons in those days. I can barely run a rested 10k at that pace now, and I’m in better running shape!
That said, I don’t have any trouble doing the same mix of *relative* intensities that I ever did. Everything is just slower.
ParticipantAshRick on May 28, 2021 at 11:23 am · in reply to: Combining MAF running and climbing training #54417Alex Honnold just did a “casual” 12-hour R2R2R run. He’s a pretty good climber. 😉
My son is a climber and started doing some longer run training, to pace me the last part of Leadville this fall. His report is that the base running miles have made him a better climber. His buddies are tired after the hike to the climb, and he’s still fresh. He says he recovers more quickly after a given pitch. And is more ready to go again the next day. His long run fitness has expanded his horizon on attacking harder-to-reach climbs, like around Bishop, CA. There are climbs with a 15-20 mile approach to do. Day trip for an ultrarunner. Two days of camping for everyone else.
ParticipantI’ve been through the same cycle. A year building AeT fitness, but I couldn’t really run ~10k pace any faster.
So I did a four-week cycle (just finished) with one workout each week of 5-6 intervals of 3′ hard/3′ easy. The “hard” doesn’t need to be all that hard. Somewhere around 5k pace.
Second workout that week was 8 strides incorporated into a medium-distance run. Smooth accelerations up to about miler pace, then slow back down. Weekend workouts were the usual endurance runs.
My pace at every effort level has now improved. As mentioned, my system just had not “switched on” the faster fibers and the whole neuromuscular activation to run faster.
The “engine” had more power, but the “chassis” couldn’t handle it.