Jeremy, I have had athletes run both max Strength and Cham at the same time. Typically one Max and one Cham although if you recover adequately and have the time you certainly could do 2 max and maybe a slightly easier Cham (like drop from level 3 – 2) 1X per week. This of course needs to be in context of all the other training modes. Are you getting enough z1/z2 volume in? Are you also trying to do ME work at the same time? I do think the Cham has some real movement upsides that are hard to get at in other training modes and its worth running a bit of it as maintenance.
MarkPostle
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ModeratorMarkPostle on August 3, 2022 at 11:33 am · in reply to: Max strength and General Strength Periods #69656Moderator
A couple of thoughts. I like the way you record things to be consistent season to season and year to year so you can compare apples to apples. Whatever you decide stick with it.
My very loose personal method is that if I am not getting my HR to 100 at some point I don’t bother recording it. Lawn mowing, dog walks, art crawl on first Friday don’t go in TP. I do think that easy walks can actually aid recovery and therefore are beneficial.
ModeratorSounds like a handful of awesome climbs over a short amount of time. When your base is really solid you move more efficiently and are more resilient for multiple outings. Of course you have to “pre-pay” in training time but if you don’t do the work your going to pay even more suffering and/or failing on the outings. Good luck on Baker!
ModeratorSteve and I are just finalizing them now and will share!
ModeratorMarkPostle on July 19, 2022 at 6:54 pm · in reply to: Recovery from Intermediate Goal and Prep for Primary Goal #69312Keith,
Advanced starts out at about 10 hours and 700TSS per week. (Of course you could modify that slightly as you go obviously) so you would want to have a CTL score of something in the 75-80 ball park I would say to jump into the advanced without getting in over your head.
ModeratorMarkPostle on July 19, 2022 at 6:47 pm · in reply to: Hill and Simulated Hill Methods – Order of Priority #69311Great question and the answer is yes. 🙂
For ME I have had athletes use all of the above with some success. Given a choice I would go for steep incline trainer at 25-35%. My one caveat is make sure with the added weight, steep incline, and repetitive nature that you’re not putting too much stress on your Achilles tendons. Assuming that’s not an issue then I really like the continuous ruthlessness of a really steep incline trainer for a hard muscular endurance workout.
Zone1/2 Since you have access to a variety here I would encourage you to mix it up a bit in this instance, that said I probably wouldn’t use box steps as a low intensity aerobic endurance workout except as a last resort. That’s the case then we’re left with three options basically. I like the stair mill because it simulates hill hiking well and is also very much a kin to hiking in snow and following a well kicked boot pack. For climbing goals where that kind of movement is gonna be encountered I think it’s really useful. The incline trainer is potentially my favorite tool but it can be a little hard on the Achilles tendon for some folks for daily use but that’s about my only complaint if the goal is going to involve some steep trail hiking or surfaces where a nice boot pack is not gonna be kicked in and you can’t just follow the steps then I think it’s a slightly more realistic tool. Lastly we have the actual stairs, we have actually had quite a bit of success at uphill with certain individuals training them in tall buildings on stairwells. It’s only a few data points but I do think there is something to be said about moving your center of gravity upwards over stationary terrain vs all the machines moving under you to some extent. For this reason I encourage folks that have access to a stairwell to use it at least once a week because I think there’s real benefit in that movement pattern and the way that stairs simulate having to gain altitude in steep environments outdoors. For some of the longer sessions I find that boredom or repetitiveness is an issue for a lot of athletes which I totally understand, for that and other reasons I will sometimes have them mix two modalities in the same workout if that’s logistically possible. This could look like 90 minutes on an incline trainer then immediately jumping on the stair mill for another 90 minutes. This could also look like running outside in non-hilly terrain then jumping on one of the machines for the second have to work out to finish it in a more sport specific manner.
ModeratorMarkPostle on July 17, 2022 at 4:02 pm · in reply to: Recovery from Intermediate Goal and Prep for Primary Goal #69231Keith, Glad you had a good Peru trip and I hope you’re getting over the Covid quickly! I do think the broad brushstrokes of what you’ve laid out here with a 12 week transition and then 16 weeks of focus training will get you to where you want to be before Argentina. I think the most important thing in the short term is to make 100% sure you’re recovered from Covid and can train effectively. Secondly as you begin to ramp up through the transition 12 weeks make sure that you’re recovering well day today and week to week this is an important time to lay the groundwork and intelligent way and make sure you’re not overdoing it as you need to have some real energy and be healthy diving into the final 16 week run up.
As for the transition from the intermediate to the advanced plan they were written with that in mind I purity. The intermediate leaves off basically right where the advance plan picks up. Most folks that had a high compliance rate and felt like the total load of the intermediate was appropriate will be ready to transition into the advanced plan levels fairly naturally. Of course we’re all a bit different and I’ve definitely had a few folks that were using the advanced plan well but needed to scale back some of the volume a bit to ensure that they’re recovering appropriatelyModeratorKeith, I do think in lieu of training with big boots and snowshoes at times (basically impossible for a lot of folks logistically) that ankle weights are a reasonable thing. Where I have had it go wrong is with athletes jumping in the deep end of the pool with really heavy ankle weights and big milages. Think critically about your goal and build up to something approximating that weight plus distance. In round numbers an Oly Mons and a snowshoe is about 4.5 pounds per foot. Subtract out your training footwear and that should be your added target weight. Maybe something around 3 pounds. Then the lineal distance of the biggest day. For an Denali that would be the first day at 4.5 miles. I would beware of trying to gauge this with total time as at home you’ll be moving much more quickly (many more # of steps) and might be too much abuse on your hip flexors. I have had good luck with folks building up to 3 days/week. Be conservative with your build up the hipflexors are a small muscle group that we ask a lot of already then abuse further by sitting all day at work/driving etc.
ModeratorJuly 13th Zoom recording Rebecca Dent/Nutrition
password: sZm&6E?w
ModeratorSteve, Sadly the June 1 recording is lost in the Cloud forever. I did actually remember to record it but I think the storage limit was exceeded and it was lost. Apologies.
ModeratorMarkPostle on July 14, 2022 at 8:40 pm · in reply to: Another variation of the oft-asked question … #69182Todd, Took a peek at the HR file from your test. Looks good and as you described. I do frequently chop off any anomalies in the beginning etc to get a better idea of the data. Looks like you were drifting about 7 beat over the 55min for pretty much bang on 5%. I would indeed use 128-142 as your Zone 2 and see how you recover. My tests are commonly the same where there’s more drift earlier in the test than later but I find the overall result with the method used here to be accurate. Remember you should be recovering day to day with your Zone 2 training so see how you do with these HR settings and back off if needed but I would use 142 as a maximum.
ModeratorHydration is a challenge for sure on these harder climbs both during the day and in camp. I tend to focus on hydration a bit more in the evening and the morning than during the day when climbing (you have to melt it but at least not carry it around!) As the climbing becomes more technical the more I use this strategy. Try and travel in the coolest parts of the day when appropriate to minimize fluid loss, If possible melt snow when its still warm in the late afternoon early evening (its more fuel and time efficient), and make sure your stove/cooking system is as efficient as possible so you’re not wasting fuel. I like the MSR reactor if needing to melt snow for water unless the trip is very long in duration then I just use a white gas system. Starting the evening meal out with an instant soup is a really good way to jump start your rehydration before dinner.
ModeratorAdvait, Are you using a mobile platform to view them? Some users have had trouble with mobile, I just double checked and I can view them all from both Safari and Chrome on laptop and desktop.
ModeratorThe easiest way I think for folks to wrap their head around the CTL score is that to have a CTL of say 80 then your daily TSS score needs to average 80 for 6 weeks. This obviously is a weekly TSS total of 560. Assuming your consolidation/rest weeks are lower (which they should be) then you need to be doing 600+ TSS for the big weeks. Again don’t let the cart drive the horse but I do think all thing being equal you’ll see more success with CTL closer to 80 than 60.
I think you’re plenty “strong” enough for these goals but I do use the heavy weighted ME pack carry with good success with folks that have goals that don’t have a heavy pack component. It just makes your more fatigue resistant and durable. Keep them down to 1 hour of total “up” time maximum and hit it hard.
With few exceptions I don’t program the 25# weighted aerobic work as a jog, pretty much only hiking. The abuse generally isn’t worth the benefit IMO. Youll likely still have a couple days a week with unweighted jog/runs which is totally fine
ModeratorSteve,
Thanks for the report and sorry the weather wasn’t ideal. Its been one of the best climbing seasons in memory this spring in Alaska and Himalaya for weather but definitely not on Rainer! We were just discussing in the coaches meeting the other day how much of a factor that is in summit success/failure. It does sound like you made it quite high though and came away with some lessons/food for thought.For the Coaches:
1. Should I focus more on heavy carries to improve this?
I think a lot of failed Rainier type climbs are “lost” on the heavy approach days. You do need to address this in training of course but you need to be thoughtful about it so you can recover well in training. You can attack this a few ways
– Adding a moderate pack weight to more of the zone 1/2 volume days (20-25 pounds)
-Getting in a really solid 8-12 week block of heavy Z3 weighted ME work before the climb.
-Doing a couple of hard back to back weekend days with climbing goal pack weights and vertical. You can do a heavier Saturday then a long hilly Sunday to simulate the goal and demands on the body.
– Use any possible lessons from previous trips to lighten up your pack!2. Is the (lack) of acclimatization impacting ability to recover en route / at altitude?
-100% it affects you (and everyone else) I think a big part of it is a reduced ability to recovery at night between big days. Suboptimal sleep, nutrition etc adds up fast even on a 4 day trip. This is really common on things like Rainier where pretty much everyone is coming from sea level and immediately sleeping at 10-11K’. A really solid consistent training history of low intensity base to maximize your aerobic capacity will always be your #1 weapon to fight altitude. I.e. Show up fit as possible. Your CTL score in TP is a decent place to start thinking about this. A CTL of 80+ for a Rainier is where I start to get warm and fuzzy about an athlete being ready for something like a Rainier. If possible you may want to consider a bit of time sleeping at more moderate altitudes of 6-8k’ before jumping up to 10-11 but that’s logistically harder for big volcano climbs in PNW than things in the Rockies or Sierra. Lastly if you do happen to sleep poorly at altitude initially you may consider a low dose of diamox to even things out.3. Does this just point to needing to improve base strength?
I think the most important kind of strength is the sport specific strength like the heavy weighted pack carries. This however is built a bit upon general strength in the “off season”. Chamfit, box steps, lunges, Bulgarian splits squats may be helpful here. That said it is very easy to struggle a bit at altitude with a pack and see the solution as needing to get “stronger” when you may just need to have a more developed aerobic capacity. The primary issue isn’t the pack weight its the lack of oxygen. If you were down at sea level that pack would no doubt feel way lighter.Separate but related – I would love to hear ideas on how to fuel properly during this. The freeze dried backpacker meals were not my favorite! I did bring up about 3000 calories per day – didn’t quite consume it all but tried to force it once we were above 10k.
-Yup freeze dried is easy to work with but is expensive, calorically lousy, and can be hard on your guts. Especially for a 4 day trip its hard to get enough calories down. Commonly with the limitations of the environment and reduced appetite at altitude you’ll be running a deficit no matter what. I tend to eat freeze dried only for dinner and bring a small jar of olive oil or butter to add some quick calories to every meal. You can also add things like cheeses, salami, smoked salmon etc. You can also branch out from strictly freeze dried into things like Ramen noodle dishes and instant mashed potatoes. While you’re at it make sure your stove/pot/fuel/utensil system is getting the job done but isn’t overkill. Experiment at home and dial in a couple of meals that are super easy and work for you. If it does taste OK at home it definitely won’t at 11k’!