00:00.16

Alyssa

Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast our mission is to elevate and inspire all mountain athletes through education and celebration. My name is Alyssa Clark and I will be your host today. We are beginning a new educational series focused on trail running. Uphill athlete has long coached and supported trail runners but we are dedicating even more time and attention to this ever growing sport along with this podcast. We are also launching a trail running training group in June led by coaches Alexa Hasman, Brian Passenti and myself. We are revamping our training plans and have many experienced trail running coaches on staff available for one-on-one coaching. We are thrilled to bring on Brian to kick off our first episode in the series covering trail running. Brian has been involved with endurance sports for over 40 years and has years of coaching experience from one mile to 240. He has 7 Leadville one hundred finishes, two Moab 240 finishes and many many other ultras under his belt Brian coaches a wide variety of athletes from high school track stars to first time two hundred mile runners thanks for being on the show. Brian.

01:15.47

Brian P

Thanks for having me Alyssa, I’m happy to be here.

01:19.53

Alyssa

It’s so fun because I think the first time that we met in person we well I was told by Steve that hey there’s this other guy that we’re planning to bring on as a coach and how funny he happens to be doing moab 240 at the same time that you are so we met at the end of Moab 240 on the last day as we were cheering in the other competitors and I was like oh this guy he knows what’s up. He’s a good dude and I think we shared some pizza together. You brought me some blankets because I was freezing cold and it’s awesome to be on the same team as you today. So how did you get your start in endurance events and coaching and what brought you to uphill athlete?

02:08.23

Brian P

Oh thanks Alyssa hey I’ve been running since elementary school I started as a track star moved in a cross country and I’ve been in the endurance sports spot ever since all through the military and into my adult years I dabbled in ironman distance triathlons for a bit and kind of landed in ultra distance in 2009. I’ve just kind of always lived in that space and really enjoyed it. I came aboard. Actually, right? While we’re in conversation at the finish line of moab 240 in October. Steve and I were talking about a spot on the team for me and so it worked out and I’m happy to be here ever since and it’s been a great experience.

02:59.44

Alyssa

That’s awesome. Yeah, there were a bunch of coaches meetings that were happening right after Moab and I just remember being on the call thinking. Why am I doing this? I can’t even keep my eyes open. It’s also cool because you started in 2009 a lot of us are much more in the mid 10s but so you really saw a lot of the evolution of the sport. It’s grown so much. Um, but you knew some of the OGs and I guess or go ahead Brian.

03:33.62

Brian P

Oh yeah I think I just read Born to Run quicker than anyone else did. I must have had one of the first copies. I feel like I had 1 of the first copies. I think that’s ah. I think that’s how I got my start just quicker than you guys did.

03:43.38

Alyssa

Yeah, for me, it was ultra marathon man. I was like this guy’s nuts but let’s do it this sounds great I think I was like 10 years old when I read that? Um, so I’d love to hear what is trail running to you and then if you could give us some history, especially as we were just talking about. The growth in the last 10 to 20 years is just insane. I’d love to hear your perspective on that.

04:09.57

Brian P

So I mean trail running is new. I mean it doesn’t feel new. There’s nothing new about running on a trail. But I think this ultra endurance world ultra distance running is fairly new to the scene I just had some athletes run the Boston Marathon and that was at the hundred that’s a 127th annual Boston marathon so when we put them into perspective I want to say that western states was in 1974 with with Gordy Ainsley the western states 100 endurance run ah Leadville was started in 1983 the Leadville 100 and the Vermont one hundred started in 1989 so when we think of the Boston Marathon and its longevity. It’s over one hundred and twenty five years old and our signature races are races that are big time in our world in the Ultra running world aren’t that old quite honestly.

05:07.20

Brian P

Um, ah, forty almost fifty years I guess at this point for western states. So um, not in comparison to ah road running or the marathon and um and I think it’s just really expanded since 2009, a quick short story is that I actually signed up for the 2010 Leadville Trail 100 and I’m almost certain I mailed in a check and there was no waitlist. There was no nothing I think I mailed in a check in February like fairly late and that in in the season not late in the season but I was.

05:39.50

Alyssa

Wow yeah, it.

05:45.52

Brian P

I was training to see if it was possible and then I mailed in my check and you know I got in I mean I mailed in again I like we don’t even do that anymore mailed in a check and got mailed back a letter saying I was invited to the event because I’d paid so you know I mean the space has grown and I think there’s some statistic that it’s like 300% year over year or something along those lines and now we have lotteries. The big races are filling up super quickly. You got to be on ultra sign up super fast to get into some of these events. And it’s great. It’s great for the sport. It’s great for our community. It’s great to be part of it and to see it. There’s races that I have athletes you know asking if they should put them on the calendar or not that I haven’t even heard of sometimes because the weekends are full. I mean if you go to ultra sign up, there’s probably 10 races this weekend. There’s 10 races next weekend and so on and so forth. So the space is really just exponentially growing faster than we could ever imagined from my point of view from 2009.

06:49.41

Alyssa

Yeah, it’s insane to me with the growth of races per weekend like I started back in 2015 and you’d be lucky if there was one in your area every month maybe and now it’s like oh my gosh there’s races every weekend and I’m sure you felt this. To a much greater extent than I did when I said I was an ultra marathon runner people had no idea what I was talking about. They were like I’m sorry, what classic? I don’t even want to drive my car that far. I’m like I don’t either which is why I run and so people just had no idea what it was and now it’s mainstream and everyone has a brother, a sister themselves a friend who does ultra marathons like truly I mean Candice coined the term of 200 is the new one hundred but 50k to 50 miler is the new marathon.

07:44.29

Alyssa

Almost a hundred miles is the new marathon which is a little bit scary.

07:50.65

Brian P

Yeah, definitely. There’s definitely something to be said for that in the two thousands I think the marathon was the staple and I feel like oh 5 to 10 or even 15 maybe there was a little shift to Ironman Triathlon long course Triathlon for a little bit and then quickly it went to ultra running and initially again the same thing that you just said nobody knew what an ultra was and now there’s the degree of separation somebody knows somebody.

08:08.41

Alyssa

That’s true. Yeah.

08:23.87

Brian P

That you know when I say I’m an ultra runner they say oh do you know my cousin he did western states and I’m like I don’t know your cousin I’ve never done western states but so we all know somebody in that space now that has done the 100k or a hundred miles or greater.

08:40.46

Alyssa

Definitely it’s kind of like oh your cousin lives in Chicago. Oh you must know such and such and you’re like it’s a small community but it is growing quickly and then you look them up and they know 5 people that you know you’re like okay, it’s still about that big. Yeah it’s crazy to me too because I truly think of 2020 in many ways as kind of the I called it the year of ultra running because I think when the pandemic happened people felt that there wasn’t as much of a barrier to entry. I think there was a lot of intimidation behind entering a race cutoffs etc and the fear of not finishing and when the pandemic happened people a had more time to trade because they were working from home. You know doing something outside it all of a sudden it wasn’t so much about. A race is a personal adventure which I think that’s truly the core of Ultra running is it really is a personal adventure. These are not distances where you just go out and say yeah you know I decided on a whim on Saturday I’d go run five ten miles which is a long distance. It’s something you really have to work up to and so I think actually by not having races it lowered the barrier of entry and people started doing the David Goggins challenged they did all of these things and realized oh I just did a 50k or I’m an ultra marathon runner now and that opened this space.

10:07.59

Alyssa

To allow people to get into races to do all these personal adventures and I think that it’s a beautiful thing that happened out of that time period is people just realized they were capable of a lot more than they thought they were.

10:23.76

Brian P

Definitely and I see that um like you touched on I think the 2020 pandemic lockdown needing to get some outside space.

10:37.71

Brian P

Created that space where it doesn’t have to be a race. It doesn’t have to be a event I don’t have to pay you know one hundred and fifty bucks up to a thousand bucks to go and and go to a starting line with other runners I can create it in my backyard I can create it in near my neighborhood I can create it in the trails near my house. And all those are acceptable. It really kind of lowered that entry barrier like you mentioned?

11:01.80

Alyssa

Absolutely and I think as I mentioned it goes to the core of ultra running when we get in these races. Yes, you know, maybe at the highest 5% to 10% are racing each other. But truly it is yourself against the distance with these other people to help you. I mean one of the most beautiful things I think of when I think of ultra running is that there is a clause in almost every race that says you must help someone who is in need. Your race is never more important than helping someone through an injury through whatever they need and it is your responsibility to stop and help them and I think that truly to me has always defined the ultra running spirit and I’ve seen it in racing all the time where you offer someone food you offer someone water. It’s not about your individual accomplishment. It’s about how we collectively move through these places and move through these distances for a long time. Didn’t think it was even possible.

12:12.44

Brian P

The trail running community is not selfish at all. They’re completely giving and their crews. Their support teams are all completely giving as well. I’ve gotten aid and service. You know in an appropriate spot at appropriate aid stations.

12:24.49

Alyssa

Carry on. Yeah.

12:27.78

Brian P

Um, from other crews though. Yeah, just to put that in there. But from other crews that don’t know me and are just I think we all have the general idea that we want to be better than we were yesterday and that means like let’s help everyone get to the finish line. I may not be racing you Alyssa. Um, but we’re racing our former selves and our crews can help each other accomplish that goal.

12:54.99

Alyssa

Yeah, absolutely and I see it so often my husband wants to become a professional crewer which we’re working on and he so many times I finish a race and he’s best friends with everyone at the finish line and then someone else crosses and gives him a big hug and it’s like he’s been helping them the entire race and giving advice and giving them food and you’re just like what a cool time. This is a cool community and people are there because they want to be there not because there’s financial gain. Because there really is not much at all if any and so it’s so fun to see that. Especially I mean pacing itself is such a selfless act too and that’s we’re getting really far into the weeds and we’ll get there. But um, yeah, it’s just it’s an amazing group of people and. Willingness to step outside of yourself is such an important part of it. Um, yeah, but okay, let’s get back to back to it. I guess one thing that I’d love to hear from you because I think that. reduce some of that intimidation factor. Do all trail runs have to be ultras? We so often put them together but what are some standard distances that we have? Are there different lengths of events at races? I’d love to hear you’re so knowledgeable. How do we think about trail running?

14:23.93

Brian P

So I guess we should just back up one step and define what an ultra event in the running world in the running community is: an event that’s longer than twenty six point two miles and 26.2 is the benchmark for a marathon. So that’s by definition. What an ultra distance is.

14:43.82

Alyssa

I always joke that if you are late to a marathon and you run to the start, you run an ultra you’re done.

14:52.74

Brian P

There you go if you’re running from the porta potty line to the starting line. You’re over so that’s the definition. But trail running doesn’t have to be ultras. Um, there are all sorts of distances, the standard ones that.

14:54.21

Alyssa

Exactly exactly.

15:11.40

Brian P

That we see are the 10k or the ten kilometers a trail half marathon which is thirteen point one the full marathon, the fifty kilometer distance, fifty miles, a hundred kilometers and a hundred miles are the standard ones we are starting to see a little more of the two hundreds gaining momentum as well and then there’s and those are the standards I should say but gosh every but there are so many variations there. There are so many races that fall between those standards they’ll say hey we’re got an 8k this weekend or we have a 22k or they just.

15:36.72

Alyssa

There’s so many variations.

15:49.69

Brian P

You know they come close and I think that’s another quick point is that the distances are vague at best. don’t think that you could start your watch and expect to land at the finish line at 22k if they say it’s 22k.

16:06.10

Alyssa

Such a great point.

16:09.14

Brian P

It’s usually pretty vague. You know it’s a little short. Be graceful with a race organization and know that it’s not a standard distance. I think your road marathons or your boston marathons is like a certified course and that’s twenty six point two miles. I mean that’s certified. There’s you know, somebody out there with a wheel that’s walking it and doing all the tangents and figuring it out. But when we get on the trail running it’s a vague description of the length of the course.

16:40.80

Alyssa

Oh absolutely. Especially I’m not trying to call out the european side of thing but but the european side of things Tor Des Geants, I always say is like two hundred and fifty miles at minimum and everyone’s like no, it’s two hundred and twenty-thirty miles. I’m like no when I hit a hundred miles I was like 20 like one hundred and fifty miles I was twenty miles longer than they said and I was like nope that is almost a full marathon difference of what you’ve said and I’m barely halfway. So yeah, it’s that it’s just ah, bonus miles. It’s just more fun. So I think that’s actually a really great tip within that is never be so caught up on the distance that you don’t have a little bit more to give because chances are it’s going to be incorrect and that’s okay.

17:37.39

Brian P

And that’s you know the difference in trail running. It’s a little more vague. It’s a little harder to get out there and walk the course and know what the distances are and then the GPS technology is a little bit different for everyone’s watch. Whatever they’re using to calculate that distance is always a little bit off as well.

17:54.50

Alyssa

Definitely.

17:54.26

Brian P

Um, you and I can run the exact same course to the mailbox impact for my house and it’ll come out different on both of our watches. So we just know that and accept it as is.

18:03.93

Alyssa

Absolutely just more for your money. The other thing I just want to point out is to those who are newer to those distances. It’s very interesting. We kind of vacillate between distant points using kilometers and miles. I think that shows how global ultrarunning is and kind of the roots of it. But when we say a 50k that’s approximately thirty two ish miles when we say a 100k that’s approximately sixty two miles so um it is really interesting how we go back and forth with. In those 2 and as an ultra runner you get really good at converting kilometers to miles. It’s probably one of the only things I’m good at math in and shock people with my skills as opposed to trying to calculate tips on my fingers. Um, but yeah, there’s a lot of going back and forth between kilometers and miles. Um, so if you’re actually seeing a hundred mile there so like utmb for example is about one hundred and five miles and that’s approximately 170 kilometers ish right around there I’m looking at you Brian as I just bragged about it. But yeah, it’s like a.

19:13.43

Brian P

And I’m shaking my head because I’m not exactly sure what the UtMB course is claiming to be their kilometer distance.

19:17.78

Alyssa

Yeah, a hundred miles is approximately 160ish kilometers is kind of the conversion. So if you’re seeing that. That’s what we’re thinking about. But yeah, there’s a lot of back and forth and truly distance is just a figment of our imagination. So really, it doesn’t matter.

19:38.41

Brian P

That’s right.

19:39.11

Alyssa

So we’ve talked about distances but within man there’s so much. Ah, what are the different kinds of races that are available? We think like the traditional mountainous you know UTMB or any of that. But what are some other. Types of racing that we can do.

20:01.80

Brian P

Gosh yeah, there’s this ah the standard or the typical you know, starting line. You know the big race everyone goes and we all finish when we get there. There’s inside of that. There’s point to point which means you start.

20:18.96

Brian P

At one side and you run the distance of the event to another finish line somewhere else. So there’s um, navigational challenges for getting to the starting line and or getting back to the finish line your vehicle and dropping cars off and all that kind of stuff. Ah, the race usually has a good explanation of how to do that whether it’s a shuttle bus or if they have some sort of way of transporting it back and forth. There’s looped courses. Um, so I’ll use a 5k as an example, a 5k loop course.

20:55.12

Alyssa

You can have a 240 mile looped course too.

20:55.44

Brian P

And it’s just 1 example, there’s many different variations of loop ohh that’s true. That’s true. Actually you’re totally right? So yes, you can do a looped course where you um, so actually that’s Candice’s um a little bit of claim to fame in moab. Is that it’s a looped course and so none of it is repetitive and exactly what that means is you’re gonna go out on yourself and come back on a different route and never get on the same course again or a piece of course that you’ve been on already. There’s no out and backs. There’s no turnarounds. You’re just running in a complete loop and you come back into the finish line from the the starting line that you went out prior to however, many days ago that was so there was a loop course in that way but I was also thinking of a loop course of of like a 5k loop and you run continuous loops of that. That’s actually fairly common these days and it’s actually great training runs. I think some sort of loop course you have every 5k yeah, you know you have your vehicle potentially at the start finish line of that 5k so you can. Have your night gear and your day gear and your sunscreen and your refills and all those things that you would need out on a course but you’re never too far away from the vehicle on a looped course. Oh gosh there are relay events of 8 to 4 participants or even greater or less than that number. So they tend to be point to point in your leapfrogging a vehicle and running at the same time. So 1 participant would run leg one Alyssa and I would run leg 2 and then we’d have a participant run leg three a teammate. And they seem to be fun and a lot of camaraderie and a lot of team building in that type of event. There’s hourly timed events. So there’s 6 hours 12 hours 18 hours 24 hours 48 hours gosh I bet you there’s 72 hours.

22:58.36

Alyssa

There are 72 hours there’s six day.

23:02.22

Brian P

If I dug deep enough I bet you on ultra signup, you could find any type of hourly event. You’re looking for or near what you’re looking for and they typically run on a looped course and so you run. Back to my example, you run your 5k for 6 hours and you try to log as many miles and or laps as you can in that time frame the one I didn’t touch on just yet which was a little bit tougher to explain is the last man standing and this is the format where the or origins of this format is that it was a 4 point you’re gonna have to correct me here a 4.12. Okay, yeah, so 4.166 six seven

23:40.73

Alyssa

1 6 6 6 So it’s if you did exactly 24 hours it would be a hundred miles is the yeah.

23:54.19

Brian P

A 4.16 6 6 seven mile loop in 1 hour and you continue that every hour for 24 hours and like Alyssa explained it. Ah, the distance comes out to be one hundred miles in 24 hours so you have a full hour to cover. The four point roughly two miles to get there. But you can’t start before the next hour and you have to finish within the previous hour or the current hour. I guess I should say and if you don’t then you’re cut off and you can’t start the next lap and so each hour is almost a mini race in itself and there’s no winner of each lap but in order to move on. You have to complete in the time period of the 1 hour and be back to the starting line ready to start your next lap at the top of the hour that was the standard or the origins of it but there are variations of that now you know a little bit shorter 30 minutes whatever it might be There’s different plays on that as well and so that last man standing only leaves 1 finisher.

25:11.45

Brian P

Who is inevitably the winner and everyone else is a dnf it did not finish in that regard. So you may run for 26 hours, but the inevitable winner may run for 32 hours and finish 32 laps of whatever the distance is.

25:29.31

Alyssa

Yeah, yeah.

25:30.32

Brian P

Race dictates. So those are just some and I think I probably missed a few. I took some notes. Those are the notes I took and I’m not sure if Alyssa had anymore that I might have missed. 

25:41.20

Alyssa

Yeah, the only ones both. Yeah there’s so many variations, other ones I can think of are out and backs. Um, so you’re just doing a big old run out 50 miles and running back 50 miles which is what Leadville is, it can be really fun. In many ways because you get to see people along the way I’ve always really enjoyed that. Um you can have like HURT is an out and back loop which is kind of wild. You do this kind of like spider legs so you’ll go out. It’s a loop but it’s like an out in the back and an out and a back on the loop. Um and then crisscrossing and yeah, so it can be kind of all over the place. Um, yeah I mean they’re the only thing I can also think of and there’s tons. There’s stage racing. Um, so that’s where you run a certain distance during a day and then you camp out spend the night somewhere um that’s and for some of the stage races you carry everything you need on your back and then for other stage races. Whatever the race is brings your stuff with you so you just have what you need for running with you.

26:59.95

Brian P

Yeah, definitely that I guess if you’re a fan of stage racing stage racing is similar to like the tour de France. You have a race a day and then the rest of the afternoon and or evening you’re off recovering.

27:03.86

Alyssa

Yes.

27:15.61

Brian P

In trail running. We usually see that you’re camping at the start finish line for the next day. Race management can either cart some belongings to the next finish line for you or depend on the event. Um, you’d have to carry your own gear but the next day would be a different race. You get a cumulative time. And they usually award each day’s stage winner as well as an overall winner of the whole event of say it’s 6 stages. So the 6 stage overall winner and then each stage has its own specific winner of each event.

27:50.15

Alyssa

Yeah and 1 of the most I would say probably the one that going back this I don’t I mean people know of it but I don’t think it’s actually quite as famous as it used to be but the marathon de sables is probably one of the most famous stage races out there. And that’s where you’re not carrying your tent but you’re carrying all of your food gear and all that which that is a wild set of logistics when you are trying to figure out food management because as we all know with running it gets you really hungry and so if you mismanage your calories that can be really tough so stage racing is that with each of these. There’s huge levels of logistics that go into it and it all just kind of depends on what appeals to you. The only one I was going to add is there are within those hourly events often done on a track. And so you can have people doing track timed events. So yeah, they’re running around and they have aid any time they want but that can also be detrimental because you can waste a lot of time picking up aid as well. So yeah, there’s pretty much like for everyone.

29:04.58

Brian P

That’s a great point. Listen you know I think the reason that track timed events like the track 24 hours or 36 hours, 48 hours whatever it might be fall into the trail running realm is because it’s still considered a soft surface. Um, the track is it has that rubber track and it’s not so hard on your feet as like asphalt or something like that but a quarter mile at a time is a lot of laps to cover in 24 hours.

29:31.47

Alyssa

Yes, yes, I just tried to do a timed event on a two mile route and got to 50 km was like I’m good for the day. I would rather be out in the mountains running in a single direction for more than two miles. So have I hats off to those who do the timed events and the looping. Yeah yes.

29:58.67

Brian P

I definitely think there’s a space for everyone. I mean you and I both enjoy the mountains and ups and downs and trails and neither is here nor there but I think there’s a space for everyone in ultra running to figure out what they enjoy and where they might find an event.

30:16.53

Alyssa

Exactly and I think that I mean that’s why we’re talking about this but it truly is what inspires you to get out there. What motivates you to challenge yourself in a way you’ve never challenged yourself before and for us we find mountains to be that thing that lights our souls on fire for other people. It’s how fast can I cover this distance and for others you know having the safety of an aid station right? Of coming back to your family of having that community. That’s really appealing, especially if you’re newer to it or um have kids or something like that. It really comes down to what inspires you to get out there and motivates you to challenge yourself so we’re going to tap into one other aspect of um, well with so many other aspects but another. Type of running slash moving through space that isn’t technically a race and you get to do it anytime you want so Brian what is an fkt.

31:31.64

Brian P

An fkt is a fastest known time. It’s the acronym for fastest known time and and a fastest known time it’s not an event. It’s a process where an athlete takes on a known route that has been established by Gps a starting point, a finish point and then a route within that. Um within those confines of the starting line and finish line. Um.

32:02.75

Alyssa

You could think of it. Oh.

32:05.93

Brian P

And you’re trying yeah and you’re trying to do it as quickly as possible. Um, good.

32:09.50

Alyssa

No I was just going to say think of like the John Muir Trail the pacific crest trail, the appalachian trail those are really long versions of it. Um, the grand canyon rim to rim to rim so trails that actually a lot of people would know. But you’re trying to do it the fastest that ever the fastest known time. So that’s kind of been the differentiating factor is that there might have been times that were faster but they weren’t recorded. They weren’t you know and about so now it’s like it’s essentially a world record. For that specific trail space distance.

32:51.60

Brian P

The route for sure I think that we saw fastest known times have been around for a decent amount of time I think they got their origins as well. Back in 2010-2012 ish area. There’s a website dedicated to it I think Buzz Barell still manages part of that or at least has his name on it as one of the founders of it. There’s definitely more and more routes getting established in those confines. 

33:29.33

Brian P

I think for the everyday person looking to get in the trail running even for myself. Fkts aren’t a space that I’m going to go do but like I’m not going to try to get the fastest known time on a particular route but it’s great to go in there and check out some of the routes. And see what other people are doing and capable of and then I actually like to go out and go run a route knowing it’s not going to be the fastest but just kind of and then going back and looking to see what the fastest was and being completely awe inspired that you know the fastest known time is literally twice as fast as I ran it? Um, my good day you know so I think there’s something to that. It allows a fastest known time for the athlete to wait for like a weather window. That’s perfect you don’t have to race next Sunday and not know what the weather’s gonna be, you don’t have to think your race might have been canceled or something else. You might have a ton of fitness and you could just go test yourself on an fkt and and give it a test if you don’t do well at it or if you don’t. Claim the fkt you can go back tomorrow and try it again or you could go back next week and try it again. So um I think there’s a couple like supported and unsupported as well which is like splitting hairs there. But maybe you could touch on that.

34:52.34

Alyssa

Well yeah I was going to say I’m happy to talk about that to Brian do you have any fkts or have ever. Oh okay, all right got to change that some point soon you don’t sound serious. 

35:01.78

Brian P

Um, no, no, we’ll see.

35:09.96

Alyssa

I love fkts they really actually exploded I think again in 2020 when there weren’t racing opportunities. We saw some of the hardest, most competitive routes just I mean fought after like a race which was really fun. There’s 3 different ways that you can do an fkt I love fkts. I have a couple of them. Um, one on a particularly long trail and one on a particularly technical trail. Um, and so an fkt you can do the most race like is supported so a supported fkt means that you can use any kind of aid anywhere you want people can literally like I’ve had people hand me oreos outside of a car. Um, so you don’t have to carry anything. You can have your pacers carry your pack for you as long as they don’t push you forward or they you know they don’t do anything where they are actively moving you in a direction. It’s super fun because you really can put down very fast times. With a full support which in races often there there’s much more limiting factors about what you can do so that’s fully supported then there’s self- supported which means that you do not have someone who is with you but you can say leave a package for yourself. You can go into a grocery store. Um, you can do anything that anyone else could do um without someone else doing it for you? Um, so for example, I’ve done an fkt on the pinhoti trail which is a 350 mile trail. First time I attempted it I did it self-supported and I mailed packages just like a thru hiker a thru hiker would be considered a self-supported adventure. Um, so I mailed packages I was planning to stop in stores all of that fair game anything anyone else could do or have access to.

37:22.90

Alyssa

You’re good the third version which I think is super hardcore is unsupported which means that the only thing that you can take is you can get water out of a stream or I think a public fountain with like a spigot which that’s. Even that’s been like a part that I don’t fully understand but essentially you have to carry every single thing on your back that you’re going to use for the event and the only thing you could do is if you cross a water stream you could fill up your water. Hopefully you are using a filtration system. That’s a whole other story. But yeah, so unsupported is really hardcore. You can’t have any outside help. You’re not even supposed to have people like you shouldn’t have anyone coming out and meeting you even if it’s moral support because that’s considered actual support. Yeah.

38:17.29

Brian P

And yeah.

38:19.76

Alyssa

So fkts are super fun. They’re a great way to challenge yourself. There are some athletes that don’t race at all. They just do fkts and that is enough for them and then the fun thing about. Fkts is that they can start combining other sports and other adventures. So for example, there’s fkts on mount rainier. There’s fkts on hood. There’s fkt’s in places that races can’t go and part of it is that requires a lot of skill. To be able to do these fkts. You do have to be conscientious of the fact that there is not necessarily a safety backup for you if things go wrong, but it can also especially as we have a lot of um, multi-sport mountain athletes in this area can be really fun like. For example, I’ve done an FkT Mount Whitney where I ran from Lone Pine so as a road run twelve miles picked up my mountaineering stuff and then soloed up the mountaineer’s route to the top of Whitney where I had to have um an ice axe I had pretty beefy microspikes on. Um, definitely consequential and then ran back down, put my road running shoes on and ran all the way back into town. So it’s just really fun. You can mix and match what you love doing in the mountains.

39:45.75

Brian P

Yeah that’s a great explanation. I think that clears up even some of the questions I had. I guess I didn’t know there was a third category. I only thought there were two but I think that there was a huge boom in Fkts during covid everything was getting crushed left and right it was great to see it was fun. People were getting outside and doing things and I think there is a lot of merit to go into places where we can’t hold events with large amounts of people and not because of any type of pandemic. But just because of the impact that we have in that that space like the grand canyon we’re not going to get you know a thousand people to run rim to rim to rim in an event with a starting line and a finish line and aid stations like you would see at a normal event but to do it self-supported or even with some support. Um, it is capable and still gives you some credit and some ability to go out there and do those things in spaces where we can’t have those events.

40:50.40

Alyssa

Absolutely and one of the things that I see fkts opening up a space and I’m hopeful kind of not to be negative, but the downside of this explosion of trail running is we do see a number of people and we’ve seen it. And really sad circumstances of people who take on these mountain events and when you’re in a race you feel like there’s the safety blanket around you and so often people are not procuring the mountain skills they need to do mountain. Trail races and so if you’re doing the Wasatch 100 even the hurt 100 you know if you’re doing hardrock etc all of these these are high mountain sports with consequences if a storm comes in if a lightning happens, snow. Huge variations in temperature, wildlife etc and so something I really hope to continue to emphasize in this space in this works in the fkt world. It works in the trail running world is that we should be good mountain safe athletes when we are doing these braces. We should not be relying on the racing teams to save us to be our rescue at any time. Yes, they’re there as a framework and a support but we should also have the survival skills to be able to manage ourselves in the mountains we see that.

42:22.32

Alyssa

We have a lot of races now having required gear oftentimes an emergency blanket and extra jacket extra calories. I think it’s also on us as runners as Mountain athletes that we need to be procuring those skills as well. And I’m curious too with your clients how you manage that.

42:45.80

Brian P

That’s a great question. You know I think that um I think the required list is starting to get more common at these starting lines and and rightfully so for those reasons that we need to be self-reliant out there on the trail. And of course someone might help you out but we can never expect that I don’t think that should be the expectation that someone’s going to bail you out when I tap out and I say I’m done. Um I still have to get myself to a safe spot and get myself Out. No one’s going to fly in and pick me up and get me out I think. The other caveat is that we as a community need to know how to use those safety items as well. So not just packing them in the pack and then never never deploying your emergency bivy never figuring out if you can.

43:30.57

Alyssa

Yeah.

43:40.46

Brian P

Um, light your candle or not whatever, whatever your safety items are on the required list I think we need to know how to use them and when to use them before triggering an emergency alert system of you know search and rescue to come out in the middle of nowhere to come and get you.

44:00.38

Brian P

Think we have to take a lot of that responsibility on ourselves and to go back to my athletes I think I just explained that as well. I’m trying to get them to know what they have in their pack and how to use it properly. I think that’s the general census of my theory on that.

44:20.70

Alyssa

Definitely yeah, same I always say you know practice with your gear and use what you’re going to use for the race. Make sure you know how to use it absolutely and I think one of the most common misconceptions. You probably see it all the time in Colorado is that people think you hit a Rescue button you hit an sos button and someone just shows up that is not how it works it is it can be hours and hours. It can be an entire night where you are because you are in a remote space. There’s a storm happening and these are people who are not some of. Them are sitting waiting for the call but most of them are not and it takes a long time to get a search and rescue crew out to you so you have to be able to take care of yourself. I love the advancements we’ve made and say helping people in the backcountry. But I also think that it can sometimes be a crutch for people to think well I just press a button and in 30 minutes I’ll be picked up by a helicopter and that is just not how it works and I would recommend that people actually look into how these services are deployed and the steps of okay what happens when that first call goes off how does it then trigger everything to understand how long and how much of a process it is because it is pretty eye opening.

45:42.50

Brian P

The other hand, I would say we have to think of it as a process like if you were to go to the emergency room most of us have insurance and we get a huge deduction in our bill because we pay insurance and that’s what insurance is for. And there’s not a similar I mean you can get you know mountain insurance. Um, but when I think of an athlete pushing the SOS Button I always wanted them to envision what that is doing to somebody else’s life. They’re taking time out of their kids’ softball game or baseball game to jump in the um, you know the ambulance to get to the trailhead to put on the pack and the boots to get a mapping system. You know you’re deploying 10 people to change their lives in order to come and rescue you. And there’s definitely cases where you need to push the sos button and you need to be rescued. But before you do that? Just make sure that it’s an actual emergency and that you can’t self rescue yourself. I think that that kind of just says it all. I mean that there are huge consequences to all of it.

46:37.81

Alyssa

Um, absolutely.

46:48.60

Alyssa

Um, yeah.

46:55.71

Alyssa

Absolutely and yeah, well, we’ve got down a rabbit hole. But I think it’s important. I’ve been on search and rescue team. My husband’s been on the search and rescue team. He’s done a lot more rescues than I have but it is I mean yeah, you are pulling people from their lives. It’s a big use of resources and that mistakes and accidents happen and that’s absolutely why it’s there but also having the skill set to rely on getting yourself out self-extraction all of that you’re bettering the community around you if you have the skill set and again. If you break your leg if something like that happens that is not your fault like rocks, rockslides happen, avalanche is that you know of course not putting yourself in the position but there are just accidents happen. So we’re not saying don’t ever use that or that it’s your fault if you need a call. We’re just saying that the more that you can prepare yourself. Do you have the right gear? Nutrition have the right skill set the more your outdoor community will thank you? Yeah so wow. Well, we went down that tangent but let’s go back to the essence of Trail running.

48:01.66

Brian P

Totally.

48:11.42

Alyssa

And we talked about this a little bit but to you Brian what brings you into the trail running community. What makes you want to go to the Moab 240 to help other people to really be centering your career around this.

48:29.20

Brian P

You know I think we touched on it briefly already. But for me the trail running community is completely welcoming and supportive. 

48:42.52

Brian P

I think we don’t see barriers. I really feel that the trail running community doesn’t see any barriers to entry. You know if you don’t have the right gear on or if you don’t look the part. No one’s judging you. I don’t feel like you know you belong there when you signed up. Um, hopefully you’ve done all the work to get there and we will help you as best as we can and that’s me saying that from a starting line of 100 people and I might only be crewing you alyssa? Um, so you know if I get to mile 10 and you’re not there yet, but there’s another runner that needs help by all means I’m gonna help them out. Give them some water, get them some food, try to fix their feet if they need some you know feet work done or whatever it might be to get moving because we are fully supportive of each other and it’s different from other communities I’ve been in as far as ah bicycle racing or triathlon.

49:39.67

Brian P

It’s really welcoming and um in that regard I just think we just give and give and give as much as we can to the community and I’ve never looked back because of that I think that’s what I saw when I came in and that’s why I’m still here.

49:56.51

Alyssa

Totally I mean I saw it I mentioned the whole thing of helping others. But at the second race I ever did when I first moved to Hawaii I was running along and the 2 guys I was running with first of all, you get to know people so well when you spend. That’s what. Favorite parts of racing is hooking up with someone and just running hours with them and you just get to know them like they’re your best friend because how many times in our society do we have an uninterrupted space of time just to talk and get to know someone. And they started pulling out like gummy bears and all this stuff and they were like hey do you want some gummy bears to need some food. Do you need anything just like so willing to offer me anything that they had like you know if I had said I’m really you know I need some extra stuff. They would have been like here take my shirt and you know make a hat out of it or something. That to me was so clear what this community is that we’re all there to help each other and within that race and I didn’t see it because I was just not in on the course where they were but 2 people completely halted their races to help someone who had broken their leg. And it was just like of course that’s what you do and and they were all part of the the rescue process of helping this person who just had a really unfortunate fall and I was like oh wow I think I just learned some of the most fundamental aspects of this community just in that that second race that I’d ever done.

51:29.73

Alyssa

And that to me just made it very clear how special the community is.

51:36.93

Brian P

Yeah I found friendships along the trail either in training and or racing in places I never thought I would know and you just say hey how’s your day going. You know to the participant next to you and 6 hours later you’re waiting for them at the aid station like oh when are you leaving because I’m going to leave with you. We’re going to keep talking or we’re going to continue this friendship and so sometimes you kind of halt your main plan by like hey I made a friend and I’m going to continue with this friend because we’re having a great time and we’re having fun. We’re passing time, I think that. You’re also touched when it’s just you on the trail and you’re moving. There’s some aspect of moving that helps you become really social but I also think that like we take away all the current barriers we have like this laptop that we are both sitting on talking to each other through and the social media and the phone everything is in my pockets and I’m just 1 on 1 having a conversation with another human being and learning about them and they’re listening to me hopefully and you know it works out I’ve made more friends than not in trail running I can’t tell you that I don’t have any friends or didn’t have a great time on the trail meeting somebody new mean I may not even see eye to eye on a lot of things in the world. But we’re out there in the trail together, sharing in a moment and that’s special. It’s way more special than you could believe and if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking of dabbling into the ultra running world or you’re thinking that oh you know I’m a little bit on the fence. Still you know I think a great idea would be to find a local ultra race and volunteer. The races are always looking for volunteers. Um hand out water give gummy bears. You know you’ll see what we are talking about right here in this podcast. What we’re describing as this community. Um, you’ll see it firsthand. It’ll inspire you and you’ll find your spot. You’ll figure out if this is the space you want to be in or not pretty quickly and I guarantee you’ll enjoy it. Um, if I’m not running a race I’m usually volunteering.

53:52.51

Alyssa

Um, yeah.

53:59.75

Brian P

I volunteered at moab for like four days to run an aid station which is a really long aid station and I’ve paced people for you know miles sixty seventy miles Sometimes as a pacer running with another runner that’s in the event and I’m just their support crew as a pacer. So I think any aspect of that is a really great way to figure out if this is the space you want to be in or not and I bet you’ll be surprised.

54:25.49

Alyssa

I love that and I love the point of bringing up the volunteer because you get to see the inner workings. You get to understand how it is and I guarantee you will leave inspired and it’s inspiring from the person who might be going after the course record to the person who is chasing cutoffs like equally as such because you so you see the sacrifice you see the love you see the determination the hours that athlete has spent to get to that point. And it is incredible.

55:05.95

Brian P

I tease I’ve been to leadville a couple times you mentioned on the intro and um, every year I bring a crew there the following time I go back I wind up losing half that crew because they’re so inspired they wind up signing up for other events themselves or Leadville themselves and so I always you know cycle in new crew. Um, it’s really not that big of a deal but I always pretend to complain about it. But I always say well if you’re going to pace me this year you know be ready to run it next year because you’re going to be pretty inspired. 

55:33.45

Alyssa

And I think that really plays to the point that I’ve done it myself where I’ll say oh I never do that distance or I would never do that race because it’s too hard. It’s too long. It’s too. Whatever and then a couple years later you’re standing on that start line like what the heck I didn’t think that was going to happen and I now know never when someone asked me would you ever do that race I know better than to say no I always say it’s maybe not next year but you never know. And I think yeah I think that’s just such a beautiful part of it is that a lot of I think people come in with the limitations that they feel society has given them or they feel they’ve written about themselves and ultra running I think just gives us.

56:11.78

Brian P

That’s right.

56:29.57

Alyssa

I almost think of it I’ve written about this where you get to pretend to be a superhero for a day for a couple days and you put on your pack and it’s your cape and gives you everything you need to survive and it’s just a glimpse of if we didn’t believe that there were limitations on ourselves. What could we be? Yeah yeah and then nice and then you finish the race and you get to live in that moment for a little bit and then you keep.

56:51.96

Brian P

Totally yeah, that’s really great.

57:03.55

Alyssa

Going on Ultra sign up and keep finding.

57:07.83

Brian P

And then you fall into the natural progression right? I mean yeah, you start to say well I’ve done the 50k so maybe I could do a fifty mile maybe it doesn’t seem that far I think that’s how I got my start at moab as a matter of fact I thought Moab was brand new.

57:26.18

Brian P

17 and I thought gosh two hundred and forty miles just seems forever and so I said, well , I’ll just volunteer so I paced a guy for seventy miles at the original one and I was hooked I was like oh I’ll be back here and so.

57:39.90

Alyssa

It cracks me up with it like but with Moab in particular is that the pacing sections are ultras in themselves I mean insane ultra is not just like I run a 50k it’s like no I’ve run seventy miles you’re like that’s thirty miles less than a hundred miles like that is.

57:54.43

Brian P

I needed a hundred k belt buckle of some sort I need like.

57:59.50

Alyssa

Nuts. Yeah  it’s like I had a pacer pace me fifty five miles it was like fifty five miles toward 15 then like twenty seven thirty seven and like 40 and you’re that’s probably not the right math I’m telling you math hands. Um, it’s while I’m like you all almost ran you all except 1 person ran over a marathon with me which.

58:22.59

Brian P

Yeah.

58:34.13

Alyssa

To have that basis of people who can do that. It’s insane and are willing to do that nuts and all of my pacers after that except my husband were like when can I do Moab myself. He’s still not convinced.

58:52.89

Brian P

Um, you know I think there’s a little bit to say about the crowd at any Ultra race. Um, or the participant list. 

59:08.46

Brian P

I think if you were outside looking in. You may think that it’s just these uber elite athletes that are all skinny and wiry and they’re all gunning for the fastest time or they’re gunning for each other. But really when you get to the starting line there. Alyssa is one of them actually one of those top tier athletes at the starting lines. Um, but they really make up 5% of the starting line usually at most races. The midpack that I’m going to get it done. It’s going to take me a while.

59:26.33

Alyssa

Things spread.

59:42.31

Brian P

Um, make up the majority of most ultra events. So I just want to clarify that so that participants listening think about it, maybe thinking about trying to get into an ultra or just trying to conquer the distance but have that notion in their head that it’s all uber fit. Athletes that are gunning for the win and they’re duking it out at the fastest time ever. No, that’s usually not the case at most of these races. I mean Western States has a huge pro field and some of these races do have a fair amount of pro athletes in them.

01:00:17.19

Alyssa

But we’ll say a fair amount we’re talking like 20 people if not thousands depending. 

01:00:20.16

Brian P

So don’t get me wrong. Yeah and you’re talking 200 to 300 participants. So I have the 10 yeah, totally 5 to 10 percent at a maximum is this old ultra elite field. Um, the rest of the participants. Or everyday shows they go to work they strap on their shoes. You know they got kids they’re running the soccer practice. I’m writing that mix. I’m running the dance practice, I’m running the guitar lessons, I’m running to piano lessons. Um, and we live life. Um, running isn’t all encompassing and so I want to just clarify that it’s not what you envision it to be as being all elite athletes.

01:01:05.30

Alyssa

Absolutely not. But there is something I find that is more inspiring than when you know it’s like I’ve been incredibly fortunate to be able to mold much of my life around being a competitive ultrarunner. But when I see my clients when I see you like when I see all these other athletes and you’re also a very very good runner. So I don’t love the elite kind of it because the funny thing in ultras is that if you play your cards right and you are dealt a great day. It’s like you never know who’s going to be there at the top. Um, so that’s why I’m not a big fan of the whole like elite language at all, but it is so inspiring to be like this person who got up at four thirty am every single day to go run 2 hours. They ran at ten PM at night when they got on the treadmill. They did their weight training. You know all of that to stay at the start line and and do their best and put their best foot forward and so that to me is more inspiring than anything else and I think that’s the beautiful thing about ultras is that it really is something that tips people from being like you can’t be halfway in and that I think so much of our lives have such a short attention span that we just don’t have to focus and you cannot short attention span in ultra. That’s not how it works and I think that’s really.

01:02:38.19

Brian P

You can’t fake. 

01:02:40.66

Alyssa

Yeah, you can’t fake it. It’s and you know, no one’s gonna give you no one in the moment of your darkest moment when it is the hardest is going to give you the fast way to do it the easy button that does not exist. It is in your head. It’s in your mind. It’s in the training you’ve done that’s what’s gonna get you through. Brian we could talk about this all day. This has been so fun. Wow yeah well I guess you’re for those of you who are interested in signing up for the trail running group. This is just a small taste of it.

01:03:19.60

Alyssa

But you will get in the lectures. I have a feeling I will promise to keep them to it for an hour. I have a feeling if you ever wanted to stay longer. The three of us could really just when Alexa comes on talk nonstop because as you can tell Brian and I are really passionate about the sport. We love the people, we love the community and we just want to help. We want to help people feel the way that we felt.

01:03:48.87

Brian P

That’s totally right? I feel fortunate to be in this space and to be able to share and if you get me talking about running. It’s hard to get me to stop.

01:03:58.11

Alyssa

Same I know when people start asking me questions about running I’m like are you ready you really? When I was a teacher I could always tell when my students really didn’t want to learn anything because they started asking me about running because they knew that I would not shut up about it.

01:04:05.20

Brian P

Let’s go.

01:04:15.20

Alyssa

So they learned that tactic really well. But Brian anything you well actually I’d love to ask? What are you up to this year for your racing schedule? You’ve got a fun one.

01:04:27.39

Brian P

Oh Alyssa that’s loaded. You know the answer but I will share that I do have four 100 milers on the calendar. I will start in June with the bighorn one hundred in Wyoming. In July I’ll be in Ouray for the Ouray 100 in August I’ll be in Leadville for the Leadville one hundred and in September I’ll be in Steamboat Springs Colorado for the Run rabbit run one hundred miler they’re all about five weeks apart from each other roughly one might be 6 weeks apart. So it’s going to be a huge challenge. Um, my training currently at the end of April right now is really coming along. Well so I’m happy with where I’m at currently and just looking forward to a great summer being in the mountains. They are all rocky mountain events. And the rocky mountains where I live in Colorado Bighorn mountains are in the range of the rocky mountains here. So I’m excited to just challenge myself and try to do this grand slam of rocky mountain events that I’ve created for myself. 

01:05:38.83

Alyssa

That’s awesome and well I just want to caveat one thing that Brian has been racing and running for a long time. He knows himself. He knows his body knows his training and so yes, this is a challenge for him.

01:05:41.10

Brian P

And you Alyssa there.

01:05:54.95

Alyssa

But this is not out of the realm of possibility and so I just want to make sure that those who are coming in the sport you do not need to go run nor should you go run five hundred or four hundred miles within that time span trail running is something that takes a lot of progression. It takes a lot of skill. It takes a lot of years. Brian’s a super trained act like a really well experienced writer. So this is well within his capability but just to make sure we emphasize you. Everyone has their own journey and you never get to take back those distances. So your first 50k embrace it, love it. You don’t have to go run a hundred miles right away. Um, yeah, but I love what you’re doing go ahead Brian.

01:06:38.79

Brian P

I think I explained it to an athlete just the other day who was trying to load up their calendar a little too much and I wanted to have that conversation with them. I explained that yes we should. Events on our calendars or we should have those dangly carrots out there that scare us but are achievable and are within our wheelhouse and just like you explained four one hundreds does seem absurd. But if you went back and looked at my history. It’s well within my wheelhouse. It does scare me. Um, it’s good. It’s good to have that good fear of um, the summer events that I’ve planned for myself but and challenge myself. But it’s not um, it’s completely doable as well. Um, for the space I’m in right now.

01:07:30.96

Alyssa

Absolutely and you’ll crush it. I’m excited to see it. Ah, it’s better. So I did the Hurt 100 in January which I keep having to tell myself was actually the start of my season. Not a part of 2022 and I will be doing actually after this podcast or this podcast will come out. Um, after I race I will be doing some distance at canyons unsure when please don’t follow this pattern. This is not usual. You should know what distance you’re far advance but you know sometimes you just gotta go with the flow I am at. I’ll say I’m at the fitness level to do something between the 100k to hundred mile distance. We’ll see what the trail running ultra gods have in store for me. Um. Then I will I’m doing a fine turning thirty this year and will do a fun birthday adventure thirty miles thirty v-points of rock climbing and I’m thinking Murph maybe like that to get out of that. 

01:08:36.22

Brian P

No.

01:08:37.37

Alyssa

Day because it’s right around memorial day and I was like that could be a really I’ve always wanted to do it like that could be a really awful way to end a very long day. Ah, but so that’s kind of my 30th birthday adventure. I’ll be doing Val D’Aran. 

01:08:55.49

Alyssa

I say it wrong every time its a utmb race over in the pyrenees and then I’ll be doing the dragons back stage race in Wales which is an unmarked 6 day gnarly race. I’m super excited for it and a fun wrap up adventure of epic five in Hawaii which is not a race, just a great excuse to go back to Hawaii where I lived for a few years. So yeah, it’ll be fun.

01:09:23.90

Brian P

It’s always exciting to follow you Alyssa. You definitely put challenging events on your calendar and are thoughtful in your process to load that calendar properly with the training that you have and not overdo it.

01:09:38.78

Alyssa

Thanks Brian yeah and I will say it was a process because back in 2019 and before that I just wanted to Race and especially if the race didn’t go well I thought I had to put another race on to make up for it.

01:09:39.61

Brian P

Um, it was exciting and I’m sure you’ll crush it as well.

01:09:57.35

Alyssa

Make myself feel better in a way and the way to self soothe is not to sign up for more races. It is to give yourself the space to recover, assess and choose with a clear mind and open heart is what I’ll say yeah, don’t don’t make my mistakes. That’s so we’re here for it. Brian and I are to slowly try to have you make your own mistakes. But we’re just going to try to keep holding you up as best we can.

01:10:26.21

Brian P

If we could, we could teach you and you can learn from our mistakes. You’ll be in a better spot and have learned it quicker than we may have.

01:10:34.17

Alyssa

Exactly awesome. Well Brian thank you so much. This was such a fun conversation I believe we have you on the schedule to come back for another one of the trail running series podcasts so that will be super fun. He’ll be a part of the trail running group we have starting in June and I am sure you’d be happy or you’re open to working with 1 to 1 athletes. So if there’s anyone out there looking for an amazing coach who has a lot of experience in a wide range of distances Brian’s your guy. Um, yeah. So they go ahead.

01:11:12.13

Brian P

Thanks! Thanks very much for having me and I appreciate always talking about writing. I always enjoy our conversations. Alyssa we can talk for hours and have a great time doing it. So that’s fun as well. So I’m looking forward to the training groups. Ah, really excited to jump in there and kind of share in a different group setting. But yep, totally open to one on one coaching and uphillathlete.com has all the information on where to reach us at.

01:11:44.90

Alyssa

Definitely all right? Thank you for listening to the Uphill athlete podcast if you could rate review subscribe on your favorite podcast platform that really helps us to become more visible to reach more mountain athletes. And as always, it’s not just one but a community. We are uphill athlete.