Training for Trail Running: Round Table Fueling Strategies

00:00.00
Alyssa
Hi everyone welcome to the uphill athlete podcast where we strive to educate and empower you to be your mountain vest today I’m psyched to be doing a coaches roundtable with 2 of my favorite coaches. Also just rock star trail runners and trail coaches among many other mountain sports. So today we have Alexa Hasman and Brian Passenti on with us. They are also two well you actually have your whole trail running training group coach team on with this call. So thanks for both being on.

00:41.93
Lex
Thanks for having us.

00:42.29
Brian Passenti
Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

00:44.46
Alyssa
Of course, so this is going to be a really fun episode I think that we had a preview of how varied our answers are so we do question-and-answer sessions for the trail running training group, and Brian and I were on one of the calls and we happened to get a lot of questions about um race nutrition and what do you do with aid stations and all of that and Brian and I realized that we pretty much had the complete opposite. Ideas and not ideas but like completely opposite strategies of how we approach fueling and nutrition in a race. So we thought it would be really fun to make a podcast with this as the major topic so thinking about how we fuel how we deal with aid stations while we’re actually in a race and the nice thing is is all of us have experience from you know sub ultra distance so twenty twenty-five kms all the way up to 240 plus miles so we have quite the range of. Um, experience with distances so we’ll start with Brian and then Alexa you can follow up. How do you go about planning your nutrition for a race when you sit down you come up with your plan. What does that look like?

02:10.69
Brian Passenti
You know that’s a great question and it’s really event specific if I think about it I usually go to the website with a race site and see what products they’re sponsored by and what products they’re going to offer at their tables at their aid stations. Um, as well as what real food they’re going to offer at their 8 tables as well. So is it going to be ramen and chicken broth or is it going to be potatoes and soup just knowing what’s out there and hopefully their website is clear enough and ah and accurate enough. To give us a good representation of what is going to be offered so that’s the start of my nutrition plan I do use aid stations and I eat quite a bit at them and refuel hydration-wise at them as well. But between the aid stations, I usually use sports specific products and I carry enough between the aid stations I usually create drop bags for those 8 stations. So I could resupply to fit to fill those middle gaps.

03:19.30
Alyssa
Nice what about you Alexa.

03:24.42
Lex
So I am is funny because you said that you’re completely opposite and I would say that I am very the opposite of that. What Brian said I plan out and I plan as if the aid station I just presume that they’re not going to have what I meet or want right? So I go into it with my stuff. Plan my drop bags based on that if I use drop bags or my crew. Um and then carry what I need to on me and I make sure that I have all that and then you know like with anything especially when you get into the longer distance is what you planned of eventually changes right? You no longer want to eat your spring energy anymore. You don’t want to eat waffles anymore and so that’s when I start to rely on the aid stations because I start to switch it up and go to okay well now I might want to check out. Do you have fresh pancakes? Do you have broth and that’s when I sort of switch over to that.

04:17.40
Alyssa
Awesome! Yeah I will say that when I’m planning it out I’m looking really specifically at how long I am in between aid stations. What I have like a really specific I eat something every 40 minutes generally it’s a spring energy and so I’m sitting there and I’m calculating like what I think hours wise is going to take me in between aid stations where I can maybe refuel or if I need to resupply so I’ll sometimes be carrying like 12, 13, 14 spring energies on me because that’s what I need to get through that section and so a lot of my calculations is just literally like with my notebook which I left in the airport the other day which I’m really sad about um anyone in the boston airport finds a notebook. Um, but yeah I just really sit down with a pen and paper and a spreadsheet and just try to guesstimate how long it’s going to take, and then I throw in like a couple extra because you never know what can happen but that kind of goes into my planning for nutrition so Brian you touched on it. But what are some of the key parts that you consider when you’re making this plan and how do you factor in weather terrain altitude other elements because there’s a big difference between running 50k on like a toe path in Maryland versus running 50 k in well like Ouray for example?

05:56.88
Brian Passenti
Yeah I think you hit on a lot of the key points or they’ve been touched already I look at the distance between 8 stations the terrain I’m going to cover how fast I think I’ll be moving at that point in the event as far as weather and altitude goes.

06:13.90
Brian Passenti
You know I obviously keep an eye on it prior to the event but we can never really know day of what it’s going to be like or what it’s going to do on any particular part of any particular course most of the time. So yeah I pad it just like you had mentioned Alyssa I pad it with a little bit of extra. Ah, extra calories just to be safe in case I’m moving slow case something happens and um I really think that’s just about it and just factoring all those components and then padding that.

06:50.37
Lex
I think for me 1 of the things I do consider with weather is well obviously utilizing hot stuff at aid stations when it’s cold but also having stuff in my pack that doesn’t get too cold that it is.

06:50.61
Alyssa
Definitely.

07:05.40
Lex
Hard to eat and I’ve come across that situation before like stroop waffles can get really hard and difficult to eat when they’re cold and so that’s something to be aware of and then on the on flip side things that melt right? If it’s too hot. You don’t want things in your pack that are going to melt and then you cannot eat them. So that’s what I consider when I’m thinking about weather conditions.

07:26.57
Alyssa
Yeah I would just add to that altitude I’ve heard can you can burn upwards of 20% more calories if you are at a higher altitude so you have to consider our racing fueling strategy that might work for you at Sea level or just above sea level. You’re probably going to need more calories when you are at altitude because you are burning more up there and it’s also the same thing when it comes to cold weather that can really take a chunk out of your calorie usage. Um or increase it rather and so what may work for I guess like relatively temperate again like sea level type race as the weather. The terrain, the altitude becomes more extreme. You’re probably going to need more fueling also chances are your aid stations are going to be farther apart and so it’s good to be really taking into consideration all of those factors going into it.

08:37.19
Lex
Yeah, absolutely, and then remembering to continue drinking when it’s cold too because I think we often think okay, we got drink drink drink when it’s hot and when it’s cold. We can sort of be deterred from drinking a ton and it’s important to stay on top of hydration. No matter what the temperature is.

08:56.80
Alyssa
Yeah, that’s a great reminder on that. Um, so I think that we’ve kind of answered relying on aid stations. But what are some of your go to like you come into aid station and you go. Oh yeah, that’s one that always hits hard with me that works for me.

09:19.58
Lex
Yeah, for me, it’s pancakes when they’re making those hot fresh pancakes at the aid station like yeah, that’s killer um, obviously broth with noodles or like potatoes and stuff like that potato chips are absolutely key. Absolutely key and no matter what. I have to have my lays potato chips. I’m very particular like I don’t Pringles are not going to do it. Pringles don’t cut it. Um, ah, of course if they’ve been sitting at an aid station. Especially if it’s like a dewy race. You want to be careful about the potato chips because you reach into that bowl and you’re like oh never mind those are it’s just mush. But heck at that point you might not care right?

10:00.35
Brian Passenti
I tend to fly more by the seat of my pants I kind of like scope out the thing I guess if I walk in always watermelon and salt. Oh that’s like the first thing that’s like the appetizer I feel like I get in there and I’m like eating watermelon and salt. And I’m looking around to see what else I could devour inside of this aid station. Um I’ll do the grilled cheese I’ll do the quesadilla, I’m not a big ramen or potato fan. Ah, for whatever reason I think it’s just years of burnout on it. But I do use the broth. Um, so I used broth and then actually in Ouray this past couple of weekends ago I created chicken dino chicken nuggets and I had them put them in chicken broth. So it was like a chicken soup of sorts.

10:46.61
Alyssa
The did casing didn’t like come off in the soup or did it and you just didn’t care breading. Yeah.

10:48.28
Lex
That’s amazing.

10:52.70
Brian Passenti
It did it. It was breading and it was you know it was fine. It was good. It was it was I mean it was pretty instant. They didn’t make it in then let it sit around for a while they dunked them and I ate them like right out of there so they were moist and they weren’t dry. The nuggets weren’t dried out because they were using them on a flat-top griddle.

11:04.68
Lex
Um, what’s I feel you.

11:08.94
Alyssa
Okay, yeah.

11:11.70
Lex
Really what it comes down to is like toddler style food right? Like my little kids would love them like dyno swimming and like seaweed. Essentially oh yeah.

11:21.10
Alyssa
Oh that’s awesome. Yeah, it’s funny how the more and more you do these the more you realize you’re really just we’re reverting to childhood. Maybe that’s all of us are just massive kids at heart and that’s what we’re trying to get back to. I would say I think that I’m not a huge aid station user. Which becomes more problematic in two hundred miles it kind of bit me at Moab in some ways I do I’ll dapple with some ramen. Um, that seems to sit decently. Well just like that nice warm broth. But I think one of the best things I ever convinced someone to make I was deep in Tor Des Geants and we were at this like crazy mountain pass and I was having trouble eating and they have hot tea with tons of sugar in it which is amazing and I somehow convince them to make me an arnold palmer and just squeeze like a ton of lemons into this hot tea with sugar and it was the best thing ever and I was like convinced myself that I introduced italians to what arnold palmers were and that they were forever going to remember that definitely aren’t but it was game changing of just like this warm, sweet, delicious like slightly sour drink and that was probably one of my like crowning moments of aid station witchcraft we’ll say um, yeah, a good tip for Bigfoot.

12:49.47
Lex
Yeah, that sounds pretty good.

12:55.51
Alyssa
Coming up for you.

12:57.75
Lex
Yeah I like to do like the hot water with like ginger drops in it for like if I’m feeling nauseous at night when it’s cold. So it’s like warming but it’s also like a little bit stomach soothing.

12:59.97
Alyssa
Oh.

13:12.57
Lex
But so that sounds sort of similar to that your sounds really good too.

13:12.72
Alyssa
Yeah I think the biggest thing is just how much sugar ends up being in there makes it so much better. So as we get into like 50k, 100k, hundred mile, 200 Miler what are some fueling considerations that you are making as you are getting into these like let’s start with a shorter distance. So let’s say like 50k, 100k, hundred mile, 200 Miler.

13:47.31
Lex
Yeah, so I guess for me when I think about like a 50K or anything below like 50 miles I think about stuff that’s really quick right? So you just want to think about you know the spring energy is a great example, something that’s quick and easy. You can shoot it in. You can hike while you’re eating it stuff like that whereas when you start to get into the longer stuff. You can take a little bit more time to like eat a burrito or you know your pancakes and waffles and quesadillas and that sort of stuff so that’s how I sort of look at the difference in distances as you start to get longer just allowing yourself sort of bigger opportunities to eat.

14:28.50
Brian Passenti
I’d say the shorter distances um, potentially have the idea that you’re going to be out there for a shorter duration less than 10 hours hopefully dependent on the course and the terrain and where that course is located and so I can survive on processed food for 10 hours a sports specific processed food quick right to the bloodstream and keep pushing for the 8 to 10 hours of a 50k or one hundred or fifty miles as an example, um as the distance grows I tend to eat a lot more and up into two forty I was eating like double cheeseburgers and taking a burrito to go just to keep the calories in because you need it because because you’re out there for three days or better. So you really got to just be mindful of the duration that you’ve planned on being on a course and what those fuel considerations might be.

15:31.64
Alyssa
Yeah I think that one of the biggest takeaways as you get longer as both of you said is that you can’t really survive just off of the sports food like it’s just not a sustainable fueling source. You have to start getting into real food and also just expanding beyond carbohydrates. Because you’re going to need to like at some point your body’s going to start trying to repair muscle and so you need protein you need fat to keep up with the demands of what you’re doing so carbs are great for 50k like exactly as Alexa said quick and fast. Um, but as you’re getting to longer stuff I so envy Brian that you can eat a double cheeseburger that’s truly an impressive skill and is probably why you’re a rock star at two hundred miles

16:24.65
Brian Passenti
Thanks! Thanks I think.

16:27.70
Alyssa
Put that on your resume. Ah so what are your ride or die especially say you’re helping a new client who maybe let’s say is running their first hundred miler? What do you give them or help them with as like your go-to nutrition tips? Go ahead. Brian.

16:56.59
Brian Passenti
Ah I think I make suggestions on how to find what works best for them. I don’t think I offer out what works best for me I think for myself I’ve gone through the process of trying all the sports products and the running stores and ah Rei I’ve bought. Ah, 4 packs of everything that’s been on the shelf and I’ve taken a couple of days to try them and see how they sit in my stomach when I do workouts if I’m doing an interval workout or longer workout and I’ve gone through that process. So I feel like I’ve done the work and I know what works best for me so I offer up that advice to anyone else trying to figure out what works for them. Buy the products on the shelf use them in training see which ones settle in your stomach the best which ones work which ones don’t and find out why what’s in the ingredients that what’s in the products don’t work. Um, what’s the specific ingredient in there that doesn’t make you doesn’t sit right with you? And just look for that in the future so that you don’t recreate that problem and then if you know what works stick with it. Don’t change the plan in the race strategy unless there’s a kind of strategy for failure which we’ll talk about in a little bit but otherwise stick to the plan. And know that it’s been tried and true because you’ve done the work.

18:13.82
Lex
Yeah, and for me I think it’s pretty similar I think of it as long runs are our time to practice. So I’ll give them a list of like this is what I really like but these are also good suggestions and you know everybody so depends on what they like and flavors that they like and textures especially is an important thing to consider. Some people are very textured dependent on things. So I think it’s important to take those long runs to play around with it and figure out what works for your taste and for your digestion. So. Yeah, I’ll give them like a general list of suggestions. But then let them sort of experiment.

18:50.60
Alyssa
Yeah, same and I think one of the things I always try to emphasize with my clients is that there’s nothing wrong with them if things aren’t working just right. That is part of the process and so many of us are always attempting and trying and tinkering to figure out even ones who’ve been in the game for years and years and years and also um, not necessarily changing getting a thing. But if you find like hey this thing has worked for me for like 3 years and then all of a sudden it doesn’t work like don’t try to keep holding onto it. Let it go like things change I mean I’ve had races where only like potatoes and salt were the best thing ever and then the next race I made like trays of potatoes to bring to the race and couldn’t touch them and so it’s annoying. And that’s why I always say to clients like don’t be discouraged like none of us have truly figured it out. It’s always experimenting. It’s always trying your best to troubleshoot. Um, which I think leads us to kind of the next part of this which is troubleshooting. And the first thing that I think so many trail runners deal with is nausea. So how do the two of you and we’ll start with Alexa then go to Brian manage your nausea when it almost kind of inevitably comes up.

20:24.82
Lex
Yeah I think you know I’ve been lucky that I haven’t had too many bouts of really bad nausea which is good. Um, but when I do I make sure to start to focus on ginger. That’s really my go to for it. Um, like I said like the Ginger Drops Ginger. Choose um Coke really helps make me feel a lot better just like a little cup of Coke and um, just sort of slowing down a little bit till I can get it under control has been my experience when I have come across it.

21:00.67
Lex
Then I expect to really hit that hard and really experience that in a few weeks here so I’ll come back to you on that.

21:08.54
Brian Passenti
I’ve I’ve been fortunate enough I don’t deal with nausea that often, but just most recently I did and so how I combated it just most recently um, was with ah carbonation. And in all sorts of different forms just like Alexa had mentioned I’ll do the coke I’ll do the ginger ale. I was eating like the nuun tabs then they got like a bubbly carbonate I don’t know if it’s carbonation. But it’s a fizzy of sorts. And they all kind of settled my stomach I was able to release a lot of air from my stomach just by burping and just kind of letting it out and I think the carbonation helps with that. That’s where my nausea stems from this particular bout with it. And slowing down helped as well or just keeping the pace at a more manageable level instead of ah being up there at the top. The top end of zone 2 or 3 or something.

22:12.16
Alyssa
Yeah I mean first of all I don’t think I would be friends with either of you since both of you don’t seem to really deal with nausea and that’s quite literally been the story of my ultra running career is how to manage nausea because I spent upwards of twenty-thirty hours being super nauseated and oh yeah, I had a race last year in the alps where it took me like nineteen or twenty hours to finish and I think I was nauseous for all of it so that was not fun I’ve done it Moab I was nauseous for like fifty miles ah yeah so it’s pretty much been like my I guess curse luckily I started to figure it out a little bit more, but for me, go tos I actually sometimes will take an anti-nausea which is called zofran it’s legal I’ve checked many many times. It’s actually for pregnant women. Um, it’s like an anti-nausea you can have it prescribed by your doctor if that’s something you’re interested in I know other ultra runners use it. But again you know take it like I made sure that I tried it before I got into race. Um, but that seems to help me combat it some I also always bring Ginger Chews I always bring tums even stuff like imodium and gas x it can be really helpful. We’re getting really deep into the unsexy stuff.

23:46.58
Alyssa
Yeah, as both of you said too like carbonation can help a lot with the ginger ale or the coke. But yeah, the other thing too is I always say that part of the reason why I think I struggle with nausea is because I go out like an asshole and try to just. As much as I try not to just hammer right off the bat and that is a really easy way to get yourself straight into a very nauseous place. So if you can slow down and not be like me ah trying to get better at that then you probably will be smart like Brian and Alexa and not get as much nausea so listen to them. So.

24:27.22
Lex
Yeah, say that though the few times I have got nauseous. It’s because of too much sugar like too much of the sweet stuff and so like really changing how I’m fueling at that point too makes a difference. Like to continue with like chewy sugary things and gels I’ll switch it up and go to something a little bit more savory.

24:53.17
Brian Passenti
And I feel like mine was a direct correlation to being at altitude for just a duration and I think that affects a lot of people even myself I do live at altitude already but being over Eleven Thousand plus feet for an extended period of time I think played into mine particularly this weekend or this past weekend.

25:16.26
Alyssa
Yeah, yeah, I think the altitude it’s really hard not to have some kind of nausea I think I’ve told Brian this but when I raced Ouray which is really like pretty much all seventy five hundred feet to almost 14000. It’s quite high and I think there was like 6 or 7 of us that came through an aid station and every single one projectile vomited and then continued on their way. It was just like the aid station for vomiting. Um, so I think like. It’s unfortunately just an ah reality often of trying to do your best at altitude. But I think before we dive into what do you do when everything goes wrong I actually wanted to touch on because Alexa brought this up. What do you all do for your electrolyte strategy and do you use liquid calories as a means of getting calories in?

26:24.11
Lex
Yeah, this actually came up the other day in our trail running QandA and it was funny again. Brian and I have completely opposite opinions on it. So I do use liquid calories I do the scratch high carb mix and what I use is I don’t count it towards my overall calories I’ll just use it as sort of like a top off method. Um, because no matter what I know that I won’t be getting enough calories. So I just don’t count it towards that and it’s just sort of like bonus calories is how I consider it. That’s what I do and then of course at some point, I switch to sort of half and half I’ll do one like bottle of scratch high carb mix and one of just pure water again just because you can get a little burnt out on the taste in your hydration.

27:14.55
Alyssa
So you do both bottles to start with a high carb.

27:16.92
Lex
Yeah that’s what I do. So first I start with just high carb and then eventually I switched to just half and half.

27:25.22
Alyssa
Wow, that’s impressive. Yeah no I couldn’t do both I always have to have 1 thing of water because I’m just like dying of sweet and also my mouth is just like I hate this.

27:29.87
Brian Passenti
Single.

27:42.39
Lex
Well and that’s the thing that I like about the scratch high carb mix and why I moved away from other hydration brands is because it’s sort of Tart. So it makes me want to drink it a little bit more and it doesn’t have that sweet undertone to it. Yeah because like when I did have like the sweeter hydration things I couldn’t. I Like physically couldn’t do it for very long.

28:01.76
Alyssa
Um, yeah.

28:03.62
Brian Passenti
And I’m more like you Alyssa, I go one to one I go a bladder or a water bottle of water just straight H2O and then a bottle of an electrolyte mix. And I’m not too. I’m not too picky on it usually I don’t take calories in liquid form at all. It’s just that actually will irritate my stomach for me. Um, if I were to have some Gi issues. It would become from liquid calories. It just doesn’t settle the proper way. So I need to eat a double cheeseburger at the aid station and get my calories and I would also say that in some races. Just by previous past experience that it it came to almost bite me in the butt. It was hotter than it was expected to be or normally is in your aid this past event and I had to go to the product that was offered at the aid station which was a scratch product I’m not sure. If It was the high carb or some other product but it was scratch nonetheless and I hadn’t used it before so I was kind of running that risk so I did an ah bottle of half scratch and half water just to dilute it down just to kind of see how it settled and kind of worked my way into it I was.

29:35.65
Brian Passenti
Unfortunately committed to having to do something or I was going to be in a worse spot than I was already in and so I worked through the process I did the half bottle half water half electrolyte mixed and I did a three-quarter electrolyte with a quarter water and then I was just filling full bottles up with electro light mix and it seemed to settle fine for me, but it was a risk that I really wasn’t comfortable with initially I was like this is could be ugly. This could go bad because it was just unseasonably hot compared to what it had been in past years so I was unprepared for that.

30:08.73
Alyssa
Yeah, it’s always tough when you have to make that on the fly decision of like this is it and we I really hope that this doesn’t bite me hard. Do either of you use salt pills or Salt Tabs at all.

30:24.51
Lex
No I’ve had really poor experiences with Salt pills. They make me not feel great.

30:31.29
Alyssa
Do you actually mind expanding upon that a little bit because that’s a question Salt pills are definitely so that’s like I consider slightly controversial,not like oh controversial. But just.

30:36.96
Lex
Sure.

30:47.50
Alyssa
What was that experience and what do you think happened?

30:48.74
Lex
Um.

30:53.76
Lex
Yeah, and like I want to say it was the Salt pills. But I mean it could have been so many different things was when you’re in the middle of a race. You know there are a lot of factors but I took the salt pills and my stomach just started cramping up like crazy. Um I wouldn’t say it was like nausea per se but was just like cramping and like just really felt terrible and was hard to run through. Um, yeah, just not a good experience. So I sort of thought of it as like sort of my stomach took like a salt bomb right. And so I think it was just overloaded on just like a sudden drop of salt into it.

31:27.27
Alyssa
That makes sense Brian, you?

31:28.62
Brian Passenti
I do not use Salt. I do not use Salt Pills I haven’t had a negative experience I just prefer to get salt on my watermelon as opposed to a salt pill.

31:41.81
Alyssa
Yeah, so I’ve kind of been digging more into them because if you are filtering water. You can’t really put any kind of electrolyte into your water. So if you’re doing like an fkt or you’re doing a longer route just as training it’s much more challenging to get electrolytes, especially during the summer and so salt pills can be a good alternative but I think they’re like very much an old school thing and then have kind of like dipped down a little bit and are starting to come back somewhat. Um, but I had always had a similar I hadn’t had a terrible experience with salt pills. But I’ve met other people with terrible experiences with salt pills and so they seem really easy to mess up and that if you take too much. Um, it can be really quite detrimental because your body is just like trying to process it and being over salted sounds really quite as miserable as being under salted. So I think if you are taking salt pills and again like I just had a conversation with someone about them yesterday. That’s why I’m interested in them and kind of been looking at them is you have to make sure that you drink a lot of water with them if you are just taking the salt pill and then just running on your way then your body is not going to be able to process it well so you have to be drinking quite a lot of fluids If you are taking that salt pill and also practice it in your training and read the and the label on the back and see what they recommend and start on the low end and then increase as you see fit don’t just like start dumping Salt pills in because I think that’s where people get into trouble.

33:33.29
Lex
Yeah, and I think another alternative to that is those salt chew that you can do, and that way you can sort of just bite off a little piece of it or like hold it in your mouth a little bit longer and let it dissolve into it instead of like the pills I think are just so concentrated and hit your stomach all at once. I think that’s where people probably run into problems with them. But yeah, they do work really well for some people and that’s great.

33:56.40
Alyssa
Yeah, and I will add as a word of caution that as much as you might be tempted to think that just bringing a bag of salt with you is going to be enough electrolytes I have done it I made a huge mistake in a huge FKT was like I’ll just bring this bag of salt because I’ve heard that like people just stick their finger in and lick it don’t do it. Don’t do it. That’s how you pee blood. .

34:28.30
Alyssa
Um, tell you in my 30 years of life I have made a lot of really dumb mistakes.

34:36.56
Alyssa
So anyway, that’s what that leads us to.

34:37.34
Lex
No, it’s a good. It was a good idea.

34:47.60
Lex
Sure yes.

34:47.52
Alyssa
Ah, anyway, any whodle is oh no I read it somewhere. Yeah I read it somewhere So I got it from someone and it’s just come I’m not that smart to just go of that great plan on my own.

34:48.17
Brian Passenti
You can’t be the first of that have tried that so I’m sure somebody else is listening and laughing as well.

35:04.92
Alyssa
Anyway, so this leads us to a great question I’m excited to hear this What do you do? And I think Brian’s touched on this with his Ouray experience. What do you do when everything goes wrong. How do you refocus and what do you focus on to get yourself back on track and if you want to use like a specific story or just kind of general either. Alexa go first or Brian Ouray got one fixed. So maybe Brian if you have another story from.

35:33.80
Lex
Um, oh gosh. Okay, ah yeah I want to hear your Ouray story.

35:39.37
Brian Passenti
It wasn’t um I just didn’t have enough electrolytes on me. The story is that I didn’t have enough electrolytes on me for the heat conditions I was expecting it to be much cooler up high and even at thirteen Thousand feet twelve thousand feet at 2 in the morning I was still wearing a t-shirt. It was unseasonably warm. Yeah, it was actually scary like it was it just felt odd like I should have a jacket on I should have some arm warmers or something on and I was still in a t-shirt. Of course you know my body was dealing with its own heat issues heat and cooling.

35:58.56
Alyssa
Whoa.

36:17.53
Brian Passenti
Issues. But everyone else around me was wearing a t-shirt as well. So I wasn’t the oddball out and it was just unseasonably warm. So I had to take on more electrolytes and that meant trying something new that the aid station provided because I didn’t have enough on me or with me for that weekend. That’s the end of the year a story but what did I do when everything goes wrong? Um, gosh I don’t know if I have a great answer. Um I think I try to bring it back to basics like to the founding pieces I’ll go back to what I brought for my sports nutrition. I’ll start ah trying to just take in water in not large quantities of water but start with just bringing it back to the basics I know that the sports-specific food that I brought with me and water are the 2 fundamental pieces that I’ll need all weekend and so I’ll just go back to that and see if I could start to incorporate other pieces to it. Broth is always a go to and I tried to focus on what is working even if everything else isn’t working like you know I’m ahead of the cutoff. You know I’ve come this far I’ve done all the training to get here I’ve you know all the things that are going for me instead of trying to focus on the negative I guess and this is the worst race ever I’m a DNF if I’m not going to make it all those negative talk. I try to get that out of my head and go with the positives like.

37:51.88
Brian Passenti
I’m still ahead of the cutoffs like they haven’t told me to stop moving forward yet. So I got that going for me I think that yeah I think that’s about it really. I kind of just in the grinder I can just grind in that space for a while and be okay with it or I have in the past done that.

38:14.94
Alyssa
I think our resident mental training expert would applaud you for that. Ah, that mindset that’s a huge tip but or like not tip but just like that’s a really good way to frame it and I think we’ll be helpful to a lot of people.

38:31.72
Lex
Yeah, absolutely I think well first are you talking about like when everything goes wrong in general or with nutrition?

38:37.50
Alyssa
Well I feel like they kind of go hand in hand because most of the time like I would say when things start to really go wrong. A lot of it is generally based on nutrition deficiencies but take it as you will. We’ll open it up to interpretation.

38:53.72
Brian Passenti
It usually yeah, you go.

38:54.29
Lex
Yeah, as I say like I was to say like usually it’s not a nutrition issue for me when things go wrong. Um, it’s usually like something just completely unexpected. You know, like an injury pops up or something like that. But what I do is sort of like what Brian said I try to reframe the situation. Obviously, I don’t push through it if it’s going to be dangerous or anything like that. Try and learn like okay is this something that I can work through how can I fix it like say if it’s a foot issue can I fix this issue can I keep moving and giving myself that time to sit with it and breathe through it and if it’s like a situation where um, you know. You’re upset about something giving yourself a set amount of time to be upset about that and then being like and before the race starts I always plan that out with my crew like hey if I’m upset about this give me 5 minutes to be upset and then you got to get on with it right? Um, because I think it is important to be able to have those emotions and express them and then be able to move on instead of trying to necessarily push through it when you’re upset. Um for nutrition and hydration, if something has gone wrong in the past, it’s just that I’ve been underprepared.

40:20.90
Lex
So I haven’t brought enough food or water with me and so I’ve run out a little bit earlier than I expected and so I’ve just learned from those mistakes of being like all right I need to bring like 2 extra gels just in case and I need to make sure I have an extra soft flask and that’s just a process of like learning through experience and knowing that sometimes sections will take an extensively longer time than you expect because things pop up or trails are more technical than you think or you hit a patch of snow and it slows you down and you just got a plan for that.

40:52.25
Alyssa
That’s great. Yeah, I would say I mean I can think of mentioned this but in Moab at mile 50 aid station oasis I just Brian knows that’s just a really long exposed section of trail where you have a twenty two mile section and you’re playing the game of like fast and light or be safe and I played the fast and light game and I lost and I rolled into mile 50 something and literally was laying on the ground convulsing in muscle cramps and spasms and was super nauseous and the medic just looked at me and was like this is not great and I was like it’s going to be fine like this isn’t great, but it’s so early like you have time and I think that’s the biggest thing to remember when things go wrong is like trying to like to acknowledge your feelings and then immediately like not immediately. But when you’re ready know that you have time to come out of it and like I love the expression. I’ve said it before it was like it almost always never gets worse and so at your low moment. It could get worse. But there’s a chance it couldn’t and so like I would say the lowest point of my Moab two forty was at mile 50 and the rest of the race, especially from like 21 on went really well and if I had given myself the chance to just like lay on the ground for 5 minutes get my self back together rehydrate etc I wouldn’t have gotten the chance to have like a really fun experience and be out there and a chance for the race to turn around and so I think just similar of like Brian and Alexis point is just reframing things giving yourself the time to acknowledge like yeah this is crappy. But here we are and here’s what we’re going to do about it and I was saying also to a newer runner that as you gain experience you get more tools in your toolbox. So I’m sure that each of us when we get into a situation where things start to go wrong. We have like five, ten, twenty different ways to fix it like oh I’m cold I’ve got a buff to put on I’ve got a hat to put on I’ve got gloves to put on I can pull out my hand warmers like I can move a little bit faster like you just start learning ways to help and problem solve yourself rather than just being like. Here’s the end like this is what I was waiting for I wasn’t sure I could finish it and here’s like the thing that is going to just derail me so I think just making sure you have a lot of options.

43:48.15
Alyssa
And a lot of resources mentally physically etc to pull yourself out of it.

43:55.62
Brian Passenti
I think the question is worded weird. The question is what do we do when everything goes wrong. Um, and I think you have to plan for that as opposed to I mean maybe the question isn’t worded weird. But um, my.

44:09.90
Alyssa
Thanks Brian.

44:12.39
Brian Passenti
My thought is what I’m thinking is that it’s going to go wrong, its more of the case you’re going to have those low moments you’re going to have those low bottoms you’re going to have those bottoms and the lows get lower and the highs get higher.

44:18.35
Alyssa
Yes.

44:31.15
Brian Passenti
The longer that you’re out on a course in two hundred plus miles or so and they get tougher to get through. But you have to have a plan for how to do that I heard. It was funny because I was driving to Ouray for the race and I was catching up on my podcast list because I had a lot of time on the windshield and I was listening to the John Kelly episode I want to say it was in longevity at the top. It was ah a few weeks ago but I was just catching up at the end of it and something that resonated. Um, at the end of that episode was like like I’m choosing to be at the event I’m choosing to be in this space like it’s going to hurt and suffering is part I guess it maybe suffering isn’t the best word, but um, but.

45:17.80
Alyssa
Pain like uncomfortable. Yeah.

45:19.25
Brian Passenti
Feeling uncomfortable is part of the process and it’s not going to be all rainbows and unicorns. Um, and so just knowing that. So while I was in Ouray in the middle the night slogging through these mountains you know I thought of that like oh.

45:35.63
Brian Passenti
I Asked for this. This is what I signed up for this is what I was looking for to get out of this you know and that always kind of helps brighten the light at the end of the tunnel like oh it’s not that bad. You know I paid to do this like it wasn’t this is a forced exercise or something along those lines.

45:53.73
Alyssa
Yeah I think that’s a fantastic point and I always think of it that if I stop early that I don’t get to experience the rest of the event or you know if you have pacers lined up or crew. You’re really excited to see that you don’t get the rest of that event. And get to experience that with them. So obviously there are times when pulling the plug is the correct decision injury etc. But you’ve curated this fantastic experience and like when I’ve had to stop or had things. Lead me in that direction like I’m just sad that I missed out on the rest of it. I’m like no I came here to do the whole thing like I came here to run with my friends to get to see porcupine rim, whatever and it’s like those moments that are super low or when things are going sideways. Are just kind of the test to get you to have the whole experience and it’s so cool when you look back and you’re like oh yeah I did that and like I can do it again now. So yeah.

47:05.10
Brian Passenti
Did you really see porcupine rim though wasn’t it like 3 am?

47:10.22
Alyssa
Yeah, it’s right, Who’s yeah, four AM oh man that was brutal though. It really was oh it was so much longer than I thought it was gonna be alright any last words or takeaways you want to leave our listeners with.

47:34.22
Brian Passenti
Um I have this term.

47:36.50
Lex
Um, I think oh go ahead.

47:40.62
Brian Passenti
I joke a lot. Um, and I say this often as a joke but there’s some truth to it. I always say that I’m trying to get my money’s worth out of the aid stations and what I really mean is like eat a lot and eat often because once you’re behind. It’s so hard to catch up and you’ll never really once you’re in that deficit and you’re still moving forward. You’re never really going to catch up. So maybe my example is obviously a bit funny and in a play on getting your money’s worth out of the event. But um, but really eat a lot. Um, eat often train your stomach as much as you can practice that in training and I think you should be successful with some of those tips.

48:27.47
Alyssa
Love it.

48:32.70
Lex
Yeah, and along those lines like Brian just said practice like make sure that you’re not going into the event not knowing what your nutrition plan is going to be practice it, refine it, practice it again. Refine it some more and get to the point where you feel comfortable with it and it will change. It will absolutely change. But at least go into it with a plan.

48:53.94
Alyssa
Love it and I would just say I feel your feelings but overall the more positive and grateful of a mindset that you can bring to the race to the situation. The easier it’s going to be when it gets hard because it’s going to get hard. That’s what you paid for. As the hurt logo says we wouldn’t want it to be easy. So thank you both this has been super fun as always and good luck Brian you have a race coming up, you’ve Leadville coming up. Alexa you have Bigfoot coming up so two major races. Um, you two are awesome resources. So go for it. Brian oh I have dragons back. Yeah, in just a few weeks like a month so thank you everyone for listening to the uphill athlete podcast if you could rate, review or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform that really helps us to spread education and safety in the mountains. It’s not just one but a community we are uphill athlete.