That’s a tough one. Sorry to hear this happened. Consider swimming, rowing, or even elliptical/stationary bike if allowed–I presume you’re in a boot. Top roping (indoors or out) and/or autobelay with a good boot or cast, in addition to fingerboarding should be fine too. One silver lining is that when you start running again it should come back quite quick. I’m curious to hear what others suggest. Best of luck.
russes011
Forum Replies Created
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Participantrusses011 on April 26, 2021 at 1:36 pm · in reply to: Maintaining aerobic fitness while injured #53412Participant
Scott,
I understand HR monitoring is a poor surrogate for perceived effort, and in general, has no proven benefit when it comes to race performance or outcomes, but we all like these gadgets nonetheless. They provide motivation and feedback on multiple levels.
Although I never mentioned max HR in this post, I’m happy to play the devil’s advocate in defending it. Max Hr is an objective number, unlike say AeT HR, which is quite subjective and prone to significant variation.
Ones max HR, for a given age range, is basically set in stone, it is what it is. Although max HR doesn’t predict race performance per se, it can predict Z2 pace based on population studies in both untrained and well-trained athletes. If you take nearly all the expert opinions (Daniel’s etc) out there, and all the scientific studies over the past decades, the average is about 75% of max HR. For the average person, this is what it is–we are sadly not all above average. If one has the health and ability to measure max HR, then this is the best way to determine a starting estimate for AeT (alternatively, one can use a percent of AnT HR, but alas, AnT HR is also subjective and variable). From there you can fine tune it with RPE and/or a series of drift tests over time, keeping in mind that on any given day it could vary. I understand the limitations of applying population studies to individuals, but the only thing less reliable to the individual than population studies is no studies at all. Hence, the old adage: “insurance is for those who are bad at math”.
The RUB is that there really is no such thing–physiologically–as a aerobic threshold. At best its a range. Furthermore, when you define it with HR, due to the inaccuracies of HR, this value or range becomes even less accurate and more variable due to the following issues having significant effects on HR: hydration, sleep, emotions, diet macros, fasting status, weather, terrain, previous training, accidental bouts of harder efforts during the warm-up, the actual duration of the AeT drift test, etc. Determining aerobic fitness by a metric which uses a ratio of AeT to AnT, both of which are ranges at best, and via a measure (HR), which is prone to being confounded, may be less precise than we want it to be. This may partially explain @juskoff’s dilemma.
Respectfully,
Steve
PS – I’m obviously no expert or professional coach. I tend to learn by making mistakes, or by folks correctly me when I’m wrong, which happens all the time.
ParticipantGreat to hear! Thanks for the update.
ParticipantThanks for the response David. What you say makes sense, especially when the goal from fingerboard training is to increase maximal finger strength or force. I don’t really see the advantage of repeaters when you have the access and time to climb routes and boulders. It’s just curious to me that the Anderson brothers, and their very popular book, don’t seem to mention anything other than repeaters for max strength, even when one has access to climbing. They don’t seem to to mention max hangs on their blog either. Anyway, thanks again for your input.
Participantrusses011 on April 16, 2021 at 3:35 am · in reply to: How long before you noticed progress on your aerobic base/AeT? #53172How did you determine the top of your Z2: AeT drift test, nose breathing AeT test, MAF, or 75% of maxHR?
(As an aside, I would simply suggest jogging on flat or gently rolling terrain for say 2-3 months at about a 10min/mile pace, 3x per week, working one’s way (quickly or slowly) from 20min to 60min per jog. I would finish each jog with about 4x10sec uphill sprints. You can record your HR if you want for these jogs, but I wouldn’t adjust my pace to target a certain HR–it should just feel moderate/medium in effort. Then after about 2-3 months, I would test and apply specific heart rate zone training zones, and begin a training program if you want. This approach allows for a certain baseline of fitness, running economy, habit formation, enjoyment, injury resilience, and anaerobic power–all to be developed without any significant risk of overtraining. A simple strength program could also be performed simultaneously–anything from the NY Times 9min work-out to the UA general strength routine would be fine depending on your time and goals. A weekly half-day hike would be great too.)
just my opinion of course,
steve
ParticipantI’m not sure if I understand your question. Your pace was the same before and after but now with a better aerobic system its much less taxing.
Were you able to run faster prior to the base training? Is 3:40/KM fast or slow for you?
I assume the pace is slow for you and you want your legs to go faster and to work your heart harder? An 8 min max rep should be high Z4 or so, definitely well above AnT–it’s in a zone and interval length where HR monitoring may be less useful or accurate, and perceived effort is better.
If speed is what you’re after and you haven’t been working speed during the past few months, or at least performing some form of sport specific strength training, then perhaps more speed work could be useful. If you just want a higher HR, or more intense interval, then adding incline may help.
Not sure if I came close to answering anything for you.
— Steve
ParticipantRe: Ant test
Maybe you didn’t go hard enough? Maybe you didn’t ramp-up completely before acquiring the data? I say this because I find the AnT somewhat subjective–ie it depends on what effort you decide (unconsciously or consciously) to put into it. And of course it also depends on other factors like, sleep, fatigue, diet, and heat. Also, your AnT seems to have been 175 in the past but its now 168? I presume you just ran as hard as possible for 30min after ramping up for say 15-20min? As you may know, during this test you don’t pace yourself or follow your HR–you just go all out and then check the average HR for the later portion of the test period (or the average pace if you want AnT pace). I don’t think there is much use in checking drift for an AnT test, I presume if one did it would often be present, and may simply indicate that one started collecting data prior to achieving ~lactate steady state (AnT)–ie, a portion of the data set was contaminated by effort above or below AnT.
Re: AeT Test
If you had <5% HR drift at 160, then I would try a test at 165, etc. The nice thing about the AeT test is that it can be easily performed multiple times per week since many of us do Z1/Z2 runs multiple times per week anyway. Another way to look at it is to simply run at 165 until your heart rate reliably rises 7-8 beats (5%) higher than when you started (after the warm-up) and then either slow down at that point or stop–with time you’ll be able to run longer and longer before your HR rises 7-8 beats, and eventually it won’t. Then you can try a higher HR. Alternatively, if you can’t run the time/distance you want at 165 without the HR rising 7-8 beats, then try a lower heart rate next time. I would just experiment with it a bit and have fun. Another way to do it is to just look at 75% of maxHR and call this your AeT and then adjust up or down as described above, or with an AeT test.
— Steve
ParticipantLindsay,
Sorry to hear you’re going through this. I concur with Thomas. Since there isn’t much of a downside to a trial of iron supplementation, I would recommend that for a few weeks. Dose and duration can be guided by your doctor, of course. I believe most folks without anemia, even with borderline low ferritin have less fatigue after a brief course of iron–this may be in part placebo. Dosing every other day can help prevent GI upset. Also, make sure you don’t take it chronically, iron overload is a real problem.
It may be overtraining, considering you were PR-ing right before. I read somewhere, maybe on UA, that once you start PR-ing in training then you have already entered the early phase of overtraining. Not sure if this is true, so don’t quote me on this. I personally would switch to work-out I am excited to do and don’t do the ones that feel like drudgery or work at this point. And for LSD I would consider switching up the sport for variety, like biking or hiking or something. You can consider additional calories, but I don’t think that necessarily works for RED-S or overtraining, unless you were severely limiting calories beforehand.
Was you thyroid levels definitely normal, or low normal? If low normal, it may be worth repeating. Chronic high volume exercise often causes an induced hypothyroidism that resolves with less exercise. This is why many elite athletes are on synthroid.
Finally, you didn’t mention Vit D. I believe this is an underappreciated cause of fatigue in the winter due to low light exposure. You can get this tested or just take Vit D in the winter. There is not much downside to doing this. The average dose is 1000U per day, with 5x or 10x that for a few days to start–review the dosing with your doctor first to confirm, of course.
Best of luck, let us know what happens if you don’t mind.
— Steve
Participantrusses011 on April 13, 2021 at 3:27 am · in reply to: Goal race date extended an extra week—how to adjust training plan? #53083My amateur opinion:
Add another build week between week 16 and 17. It can be less volume or intensity than week 17. For example, if week 17 is similar to week 15, then make the new week similar to week 14; if week 17 is more than week 15 than make the new week like week 15. If you’re feeling strong (honestly), you could also just add another build week after week 18, that’s more of a build. I think as long as weeks 19 and 20 are stable, and you take a rest week every 3-4 weeks you’ll be fine. Also, I like to put my longest long run about 3 weeks before the race, some do it more like 2 weeks–so this depends somewhat on when day each week of the training plan starts for you, etc.
— Steve
ParticipantRE #3:
I consider anything above 55% of maxHR to be aerobic base. So hilly hiking with your young one would likely fall into this category. You may need to look at the time above 55% maxHR on TP after the hike to see what ‘counts’. You could also pull a Milo of Croton and keep hiking with your child on your back until they are an adult.
— Steve
PS – I have a Polar chest strap–it also has glitches like those you describe.
ParticipantSBR,
Forgot about that. Perhaps a rower at the gym could give you a an intense aerobic work-out without straining your ankle (using a boot). I suppose you could do a one month cycle of higher intensity, but shorter duration rowing intervals. Since these types of work-outs are not very specific to trail running or alpinism, early season may be the right time to do them. Then you can do the more specific, longer slow runs and hikes when your ankle is better, 6-8wks before mid to late summer. I understand this is the reverse of the UA training paradigm, but it also can work.
Best of luck,
Steve
ParticipantSBR,
Since your username is swim.bike.run I presume you swim. I would swim to maintain your aerobic capacity. Also, as Pete mentioned, light weight bearing exercise would be quite useful in promoting recovery, as long as it doesn’t cause any pain in the ankle–sooner you can walk on it without pain the better.
The big question is, as an alpine climber, how do you get back to climbing, at least in the gym. Hangboard is a no brainer. Maybe getting a ‘boot’ to wear would allow you to climb in the gym, and even boulder in the gym. If the injury just occurred, there are a few medical-level things you can do to expedite the recovery, but I would defer this to a medical professional to delineate in person. Connecting with a good PT or sports medicine doc, if insurance allows, may be what you need.
— Steve
Participantrusses011 on April 8, 2021 at 1:49 pm · in reply to: Improving climbing strength to weight ratio #52929Jay,
Based on the information you provided, weight loss will significantly improve your ability to climb harder grades. As David astutely points out, just practicing to climb will also significantly improve your climbing.
So to answer your question, doing both will likely get you there the quickest, and they are not mutually exclusive training goals.
Diet, not exercise, determines weight loss. For a variety of reasons, adding exercise to diet doesn’t necessarily lead to more or less weight loss.
I would suggest: 1. a caloric deficit diet high in protein to slowly reduce your weight while maintaining muscle, 2. no aerobic exercise, and 3. practice climbing 3-4days per week. Adding some basic finger training, like the programs found free on UA, would also be useful (due to your weight you may be at a higher risk of pulley ruptures). I would only ‘try hard’ in the gym like 25-33% of the days you climb, and just practice and have fun the other days–maybe incorporate some drills. Would shoot for a body fat ~12% as an initial goal, and not a specific weight per se. Many scales provide this metric, and it’s decently reliable, at least as a relative value over time.
Of course, if you have the time, which I think you implied that you don’t in your original post, then adding some aerobic training would also be fine, but keep in mined its to develop aerobic fitness and not for weight loss per se.
Best of luck.
— Steve
ParticipantHey–congrats on the epic effort!
I’d say the part of the race (climbing or descending) that beats you up the most is the one you are prepared for the least. That said, with all else relatively equal, it’s usually the downhill, since eccentric contraction is the prime driver of DOMS. Furthermore, your body shuts you down–eg, via cramping–on the uphill well before really severe cellular damage occurs. This cramping response is likely neuro-muscular, and not just electrolyte of hydration related. Downhill seems to be mostly limited by pain, I suppose.
Here’s a question related to the hamstring soreness: what percent of the race did you walk vs briskly hike vs run? and what percent of your training did you walk vs briskly hike vs run? — ie was your training specific enough during the final few weeks before the event? did you do enough brisk hiking? did you train in the heat enough? Those little washes of water you describe that broke up you rhythm may have also had something to do with it.
— Steve
ParticipantDada–thanks for the link and post.
I listened to the podcast and read the review article from 2007 it summarizes. My take home point from reading it is that we don’t really don’t know what is ‘best’ to improve VO2max–training at, below, or above. The data seems conflicting, at least from 2007. I have no doubt that 30/30 improve ones VO2max, but I was uncertain if it was the most efficient approach. I suppose the point is moot, or that we don’t really know whether it’s more efficient, especially since many think as you approach VO2max, the different training responses to different types of intensities and intervals probably just gets blurred anyway. One thing that seems pretty consistent though is that ‘hard’ training is probably required to improve VO2max once one has an aerobic base. Also, VO2max requires laboratory testing to determine–so it’s kind-of useless as a marker of progression or metric to follow. Even LT2 or AnT is also not so reliable a marker to follow either, due to the relative subjectivity of the test, and the somewhat difficult nature of this pace to pinpoint with say 10-20min training intervals. Hence the topic of CP. I don’t know but maybe CP may eventually become the most useful metric for higher intensity training.