Muscle endurance and AeT

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  • #51771
    juskojj
    Participant

    Today I tried doing an AeT on my treadmill @10% incline. Did my 15min warm up, ramped up to my target HR (trying to see if I was within 10% of my AnT), I was around 4.7mph and u couldn’t walk that but could jog, breathing was easy but my legs were getting a bit heavy and little sore after about 30min so I didn’t keep going and slowed down to finish a workout.

    My question is should I try this outside again or do I need to work on muscle endurance?

    I’ve been at this since the end of last June and have been getting in 4hrs or more all in zone 2 as I’ve progressed. The route I take normally according to my wahoo is 357ft gain over 5miles, which is pretty flat.

    I’m just having a hard time believing I’m not within 10% after 6 month’s of continually zone 2 training getting an average of 4hrs or more a week in. Fora period of time, early on, I was getting 8hrs a week.

    Once I go back to work I should be able to maintain 4hrs a week of training but I don’t want to fall off.

    My last outdoor AeT test i did I was 160bpm with an Ant of 186, so I’m close. I know you say not to do any ME workouts in until within in 10% but being so close is there any harm in doing them? Or even doing more zone 1 and occasionally a zone 3?

  • Participant
    russes011 on #51772

    Hi. I find your question(s) very interesting–because I have similar ones.

    When does one know if they no longer have ‘ADS’ (aerobic deficiency syndrome)? Is an AeT within 10% of AnT the best metric? An alternative method used on TP is to determine your current AnT and then take 75-85% (ie ~80% goal) of that (your running Z2 or aerobic zone) and confirm there is a <5% drift while in this zone for an hour. Which is best? Are there others?

    I’m also curious, if know, what volume and duration of aerobic base training, on average, is required for most previously untrained and not overweight persons to not have ADS? There must be some ballparks here

    — Steve

    Keymaster
    Shashi on #51791

    My question is should I try this outside again or do I need to work on muscle endurance?

    If your last AeT test was outdoors, I would recommend doing an outdoor test for consistency and tracking progress with your AeT.

    I’m just having a hard time believing I’m not within 10% after 6 month’s of continually zone 2 training getting an average of 4hrs or more a week in.

    Uphill Athlete recently shared (on Facebook/Instagram) an experience of a member of this community on ADS. It took this athlete a year to go from an AeT of 135 bpm to 170 bpm. Progress will happen, but the timeline will vary by individual based on their baseline, training volume, fasted training, etc. and other factors unique to the individual. You might find this discussion helpful –

    Fixing Aerobic Deficiency general timeline? tips?

    Scott shares examples of volumes and timelines in the above forum discussion.

    I know you say not to do any ME workouts in until within 10% but being so close is there any harm in doing them?

    Do you have an event/trip coming up? If yes, then include Muscular Endurance (ME) in your training as it will help with your event. If not, doing ME workouts now will not be as effective as doing it when you have AeT within 10% of AnT.

    When does one know if they no longer have ‘ADS’ (aerobic deficiency syndrome)? Is an AeT within 10% of AnT the best metric?

    I don’t know if this is the best metric, but UA coaches have used this approach and see it work for all levels of athletes. As a recreational athlete, for me, that’s good enough. Keep it simple.

    Participant
    LindsayTroy on #51792

    Today I tried doing an AeT on my treadmill @10% incline. Did my 15min warm up, ramped up to my target HR (trying to see if I was within 10% of my AnT), I was around 4.7mph and u couldn’t walk that but could jog, breathing was easy but my legs were getting a bit heavy and little sore after about 30min so I didn’t keep going and slowed down to finish a workout.

    What was your target heart rate and how did you converge on that number? Based on the fact that you were only able to complete half the test, I think that it would be best to complete the test again at a lower heart rate. I can’t advise how much lower since you didn’t specify what HR you tested. I would say that AeT of 160 and AnT of 186 is not that close, its a 16% difference.

    As for whether or not to do ME workouts, do you have an event you are training for thats got you on a timeline? That will determine the best course of action

    Participant
    LindsayTroy on #51793

    An alternative method used on TP is to determine your current AnT and then take 75-85% (ie ~80% goal) of that (your running Z2 or aerobic zone) and confirm there is a <5% drift while in this zone for an hour. Which is best? Are there others?

    These methods rely on population averages. Just like saying max HR is 220 – age. They assume everyone is identical in the population. The training peaks method would not be accurate for a person without ADS as it assumes a bigger gap than 10%.

    Take, for example, an athlete with an AnT of 185 (like the above poster). TP suggests their AeT would be 138-157 which would be 17-34% gap. If that athlete was within 10%, their AeT would be >=168

    Participant
    juskojj on #51796

    My target was 167, I picked that because I was trying to see if I was there yet, last test was 160 which was several months ago so I wanted to try again. Like I said my breathing and lungs were fine just my legs but I also did a tough leg workout last week so maybe not completely recovered?

    Nothing specific just looking for something different to do then just keep running. I am looking at doing a 40/50mile hike in july.

    I started doing AeT test on the treadmill in the beginning but transitioned to outside once it got nice out and kid’s were in school.

    I also did a 10mile run all in zone 2 but at the end my legs were sore even though breathing was fine. That was the longest I’ve ever run in my life as well.

    Participant
    LindsayTroy on #51801

    If its your legs failing first, I would definitely retest with sufficient recovery.

    Are you doing strength workouts currently or just just running?

    Participant
    juskojj on #51802

    Mainly just running.

    I did the 10miles on a Fri(26 feb) then the following Tues (2 mar) I did an ME workout (bodyweight) 6sets, not 4, because I wanted to try and looking for something different to supplement running.

    Participant
    russes011 on #51803

    Thank you for the info Sashi and Lindsay.

    Scott’s past post that you linked was what I was looking for in regard to time/volume.

    On a separate note, I believe (but am unsure) that there may be different paths to achieving the ability to perform within your aerobic zone without drift or decoupling, versus raising your AeT. I assume achieving latter would by default achieve the former, but am not sure the opposite is true. (Not sure if there is an answer to this question or whether or not it really matters–more just thinking out loud here)

    Participant
    LindsayTroy on #51807

    @juskojj- I would strongly recommend doing a max strength cycle before doing ME. That will A) give you time to fix any remaining ADS and B) help to build a better base of strength to then layer on top endurance.

    @steve-

    On a separate note

    When you have separate questions, it would be easiest if you address them in a separate forum post, I’ve noticed you’ve posted side questions to a few posts now. If you dont mind making a separate post for this question, I’ll delete it here and address it over there. Thanks!!

    Participant
    juskojj on #51808

    Lindsay,
    Much appreciated! Can you tell me more or point me in the direction to find out more about the max strength cycle?

    Participant
    juskojj on #51809

    On other question, how do I find my max heart rate?

    Participant
    LindsayTroy on #51810

    Do you have the TFNA or TFUA books? If so, I can point you to pages, or here is a link to the general strength exercises. The idea is to do it 2x per week https://uphillathlete.com/general-strength-routine/

    Participant
    juskojj on #51811

    I have the uphill athlete.

    How about max heart rate?

    Thanks!

    Participant
    russes011 on #51812

    Thanks. Understood.

    Participant
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