If you are doing weight-bearing activities (skiing, mountain running, mountaineering, etc.) then the weight-bearing training (stair stepping, treadmill, running) will be more effective because you will be working the muscles that keep you standing upright and support your weight. Rowing can give a great aerobic workout and good quad strength but you are sitting during the exercise. But, rowing can be a great recovery exercise, especially if you set low drag on the machine, because it’s low impact and gives your legs a high range of motion.
PaulB
Forum Replies Created
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ParticipantParticipant
Hi Greg,
I’m not a coach but I have done both yoga and cycling and recorded the TSS values. It all counts towards fitness, but depending on your fitness level and goals some activities just count, and help, more than others.
Somewhere on this site there is advice to count cycling as 1/3-1/2 the “recorded” TSS, which is what I did when I was bike commuting a lot. For about a week I wore a HR monitor on my commute and recorded 1/3 the HR TSS value that Training Peaks gave me. After that week I stopped wearing the monitor and just recorded the TSS manually because it was really consistent.
For Vinyasa Yoga, I have used 20TSS/hr because some of the poses seemed to give a general strength effect, but not significant. This one seems more like a more individualized TSS would be best.
Others might have a different approach, but that’s what worked for me.
Paul
ParticipantRegarding your third point and your follow-up third point, what I’ve always read on these forums is that to improve AeT it’s best to minimize z3/4.
3. As I understand it, AeT is not a hard number and can change daily depending on your recovery (or life stress, or weather, or if you’re getting sick, or…). So if your tested AeT is 150 while you’re well rested, your AeT any given day might be 145 or lower. That means the 5-10% that you record in z3 could be even higher %.
To prevent that, one option is to set HR zones in Training Peaks (or whatever you use) based on tested AeT but when running keep your max HR 5 beats below AeT. That way if you’re well rested your entire run will be in z2 and if you’re a bit fatigued it will still be mostly in z2. Also, on the uphills if you don’t catch a rising HR early enough you won’t go too much over for too long. It gives a slight cushion.
For the stride work, I have heard exactly what you said, that strides are great stimulus to improve running economy. On my runs, I do a couple 8s strides almost every run as long as my HR stayed in z1/2 the entire run (I do them near the end of my runs). If I accidently spent a lot of time in z3, I skip strides. My HR always goes into z3 on the strides but the z3 time is usually 30-60s per run so it’s a pretty low % of total time.
ParticipantHi Jeremy,
I have maxed out my training time but not yet for an extended period, but I will face that over the next months. As I understand, you can still see improvements even after you’ve maxed out your time. You can see some improvements in AeT (especially if AeT is still well below AnT) and your pace can also improve.
You can always change things up to see improvements. Try max strength and/or hill sprints, the gym based ME workouts, some Z3 work, run flatter/faster routes for a while, find even steeper routes, etc. Or do a month of less training (maybe 70% of what you were doing) and do structural work (hips, glutes, etc.) to get a good recovery and then increase back to your max time again.
But, like I say, I haven’t faced that yet so maybe someone who has can give more ideas.
Paul
ParticipantYes, you can get within 10% of your AnT of 185 but it might take a while especially if only have limited training time each week (you didn’t mention your weekly training time). Continuous work, progressive building, and patience will get you there.
If you’re worried about burning out or getting injured you could try a 2:1 build:recovery structure. A “traditional” 3:1 gives 13 recovery weeks per year (assuming you train every single week) but a 2:1 gives 17 recovery weeks, so you get a full month of extra recovery each year.
Slow down your ramp rate (how much time/mileage you add each week), at least of the Z2 mileage. If you want to ramp up faster, make the excess time very easy Z1 or recovery, even if it means brisk walking. Eventually you’ll max out your available training time with the Z1 and recovery and then you can slowly replace it with Z2 if you want.
Make mid-Z2 your max training HR. There’s several mentions on the forum that AeT varies day to day so if your AeT is 150 and you train at 148-150 every day then you might be going over your AeT several days per week if your AeT that day is actually lower due to fatigue or life stress. Maybe shoot for 140 set 145 as you max training HR.
Lastly, on the uphills, don’t be afraid to slow down to a walk. A brisk uphill walk is often easier on your legs than running and you can probably still keep a low Z2 HR.
With all that said, I don’t know what your goals are or what your timeline is for those goals. For my own training I’m taking the long view because I usually have 2 “big” events per year those are trips with friends, not competitions, so I can afford to make slower progress. But seeing that progress while not getting burned out is also pretty motivating.
ParticipantI second what Mike said. I had my meniscus done a few years ago and as I worked back into strength training I couldn’t go ass-to-grass anymore without some pain or discomfort, at least not with weight. I still do bodyweight squats all the way down, but even now don’t do more than a half squat with weight. SL squat (with rear leg up) have been good along with step ups and step downs. Step-ups I started low and moved to taller steps. Lunges took longer to re-start but now are no problem. Road cycling is definitely a great way to lube the knee. Overall, my experience was not that squats and lunges are gone forever but that it’s best to not jump straight back into heavy, deep squats or lunges right away.
One thing I’ve also learned along the way is to look at what is really needed. Are heavy ass-to-grass squats “better” than heavy half squats or SL squats? Maybe, maybe not. But are they really needed for what I do (running and backcountry skiing)? Probably not. As long as I have that range of motion with bodyweight I focus on half squats, SL squats, etc., for strength.
ParticipantRegarding the Suunto HR strap, I have found them to be very sensitive to static buildup while wearing synthetic shirts even when the strap/sensor is new and then over time the readings get more and more erratic more of the time. I warrantied one strap and my second strap worked okay for a couple months before giving erratic readings similar to yours. I spent several months diligently washing with soap and water after each run, all the while changing the battery every couple months (this is the first thing Suunto always says to do). I finally decided that level of effort wasn’t worth it and bought a Polar H10. I use an Ambit3 Peak and there is no problem connecting the H10 to the watch and so far (about 2-3 weeks now) I have had no erratic HR readings. So, if you can, I recommend getting a different chest strap.
ParticipantPaulB on June 17, 2020 at 10:34 am · in reply to: Aerobic and Anaerobic Threshold Testing near Portland Oregon #42868If you do want to get a lab test, Clark College in Vancouver offers one. I did their Metabolic Profile Testing and it was exactly what has been described on this site (warm up, 3 min stages, etc). I emailed back and forth with the guy who runs it to make sure the test would work for what I wanted.
http://www.clark.edu/campus-life/student-life/fitness_center/fitness-testing.php
He gives you a bunch of recommendations about zones, etc. For me, the info that was most useful was VT1, Fat Max HR, and calories burned along with % carb vs. fat at various HRs. He didn’t want to give me the raw data but eventually did after I bugged him a bit.
It’s only $100 so if you really want the lab test it won’t break the bank. But, as Scott J said, the HR drift test is free. I did my lab test a couple years ago and it gave me a good starting point for AeT but I’ve used HR drift ever since for AeT and a local track to test AnT.
ParticipantPaulB on March 18, 2020 at 11:25 am · in reply to: (T)TFTUA – Treadmill Training For The Mountain Athlete (during isolation days) #39674Hi,
I spent most of the winter on a treadmill because it was the only way I could get much “uphill” in my training. I live near a hilly area but I can’t access the hills during my weekday training window. With so much training on a treadmill, I had a lot of time to think about those exact questions and here’s my thoughts.
It seems to be an okay way to maintain a certain volume and even build volume. You certainly miss out on the effects of the uneven surface of the trail but I compensated as best I could by doing specific hip and glute work, lateral hops, Icky Shuffle, etc. I would also do “side shuffles” on the treadmill every few minutes. It’s not perfect but it’s better than nothing.
For elevation, going “uphill” on a treadmill is great but you miss the downhill. I did some backward running/walking to compensate for that, even though it was not anywhere near as much as I would have gotten outdoors. Not perfect but better than nothing. For logging elevation, I keep an Excel sheet because I’m on a free TP account and I kept a separate column for treadmill elevation separate from my outdoor elevation because most of it on the treadmill was “uphill” and not up/down so you get more “ascent” during the same workout time.
For my TSS, I used a fudge factor of 3 TSS/1k ft “climbed”. The normal fudge factor is 10/1k ft climbed/descended but the treadmill is mostly climbing so I missed out on the eccentric part of the run/walk so I guessed about 5 TSS/1k “climbed”. Then, because the treadmill is moving under my feet I adjusted downward a little bit more and came up with 3. It’s not scientific but it seems to work and roughly match up with an outdoor workout. Depending on how much sideways and backward running you do, maybe 2 or 4 would work but 3 worked for me.
The mental part is the hardest but there’s always podcasts!
Paul
ParticipantHi Scott,
When doing ME work I had not been counting it as high intensity, I was counting it separately, so I’ll change that. I’m limited on my weekly training time due to work and and a kid, so I’ve probably been overdoing high intensity whenever I have done ME work. But I have a question how to count that time.
If doing the gym based ME, would the ME time be counted as the actual “work” time, similar to doing intervals or other high intensity work? For example, if doing 4×10 of the gym-based ME workout (https://uphillathlete.com/strength-training-for-the-mountain-athlete/) let’s say each split jump set takes 30s to complete then the total “work” time is 2min, add in the jump squats, step ups, lunges, and the total “work” time would be maybe 9-10 minutes. The rest of the time is active rest.
Or, would you count the entire session, so the above would be maybe 30 minutes?
These two scenarios yield very different numbers as a percent of total training time!
Thanks,
PaulParticipantHi Scott,
One more question on this. In the past I heard that for an AnT test to take average HR over the final 20 minutes of the 30 minute effort and based my AnT on that. You referenced the latter 20 minutes, too. But the DIY Anaerobic page (https://uphillathlete.com/diy-anaerobic-test/) says to take the average of the full 30 minutes. Is it best to take the whole 30 minutes or just the final 20? Or is that splitting hairs since in my case it’s a 4 bpm difference?
Thanks,
PaulParticipantThanks for the reply and insight Scott. At least now I know that what I’m doing is working!
ParticipantHopefully this link works: http://tpks.ws/A56NSJYSKHMFL5MIUAZEV7ISAM
Paul
ParticipantPaulB on January 17, 2020 at 5:19 pm · in reply to: decoupling of HR and RPE/respiration in cold #36470Cold, dry, and windy…it could be static electricity. Check out this thread from a couple years ago. https://uphillathlete.com/forums/topic/high-than-expected-sustained-hr/
Participant@briguy, I had misread your first post as 10-15km instead of 10-15 miles. Yes, Barrett Spur is a fantastic run/hike, you can do a lollipop route from any of the trailheads and around Elk Cove. You could also check out McNeil Point and Cairn Basin, or do for the longer end of your target range and combine Elk Cove and Cairn Basin.
The Cast Lake to Burnt Lake is in the Zig Zag Mt area and you can do multiple routes to get more or less vertical, and yes it’s very scenic.
The Oregon Hikers page has quite a few hikes on it. To get extra mileage and/or vertical, you can use it in conjunction with CalTopo, or your preferred topo program, and get creative.