Thanks Jane. Sorry, I think my question wasn’t clear. I will see if I can figure out how to re-phrase it.
bill
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ParticipantParticipant
I started wondering how much these adjustments matter for anyone not training at the edge of their capacity and at risk for over-training. I was making them for a couple of training blocks but not really seeing how they changed anything other than my CTL, and I was left wondering about the downside of fussiness/anxiety/over-focus on numbers versus their value in making training adjustments or preventing over-training.
Maybe I am missing something here but if we watch for over-training by doing a good job of tracking fatigue, resting heart rate changes, on-the-hill performance, etc can’t we skip the fudge factors, at least for the aerobic work we do?
Thanks,
BillParticipantBased on what I’ve learned in the forums, Steve’s books, and the Mountaineering training group, training in the upper end of Z2 will build capacity more quickly than training toward the bottom but… it won’t make as much difference as consistency and lots of hours in the zone. There is also one caution: better to be in the lower range of the zone than to push the top and ending up on the other side of your max. The zone boundaries aren’t fixed numbers but more of a narrow band.
ParticipantGood morning Aaron – We talked a bit about this here: https://uphillathlete.com/forums/topic/long-hikes-early-in-the-training-cycle/ and you may find some of the info helpful. Cheers, Bill
ParticipantThanks Mark!
Indeed, I will add rule number four to my list. Thanks for mentioning Z1. Given the nearby terrain, my hikes are typically composed of steep sections linked by more gentle stuff or out and backs, so more Z1 time in a longer hike is pretty easy. I will think about how to adjust my hikes to make them longer without pushing the Z2 work up too fast.
As for Z3/Z4 work… staying out of Z3 and in Z2 has, I think, made a big difference in my aerobic capacity. After a year of this, I am moving fifty to seventy percent faster and able to go longer in most terrain, while staying under my AeT (which hasn’t changed much). My ME and strength still suck but that’s what I will work on in this round of training.
Appreciate the feedback. As much time as I’ve spent digging through TfNA and TfUA, I still need the cliff notes version sometimes!
ParticipantRichard, thanks for the ideas!
Mark – thanks. Whatever we change, it sounds like there are a three basics:
– have to keep up with the other training,
– have to track recovery and not get trapped by over-training,
– have to build aerobic capacity with regular doses of slowly increasing volume.So, if I have those bits right, the question is “how to adapt the plan to account for longer long days?” I seem to have three options: I can increase aerobic hours to match my long days. For example, if my long day is already a three hour hike (two in Z2 and one in Z0/Z1), I could just use that as my base and lengthen it from there. Or I can take the total hours I have in the two “heavy” days and divide them differently to do a light day and heavy day. Or I can cut back and do shorter hikes until my planned hikes are long enough to accommodate what I am already doing.
I don’t imagine redividing the days really works as far as the logic of the training program goes. So is the first option – assuming that I meet those three basics above – wprkable? Otherwise, I should just drop back and do the numbers as designed.
My apologies for my long, complicated questions. I am really trying to figure out how to (a) train while still getting out and having fun and (b) make program changes that don’t defeat the purpose of the work.
Thanks,
BillParticipantMark – Thanks for the info. That makes sense. I will stick with the fixed pacing goal by time and reps, at least for now, which is much easier for me to track. And, yes, I am easing my way into it. I experience with the steep-hill endurance training but haven’t done a lot of the gym-based sort.
ParticipantI’ve been in the Himalayas twice, for about about two months each time, spending most of the trip between 12,000 and 18,000 feet. The docs on the team (we were running a medical clinic) weren’t exactly pushing Diamox but they were certainly recommending it for the first week or so of the trip. As a side note, I tend to acclimatize pretty quickly and have never suffered from serious altitude illness. The first trip, I followed their recommendation, the second I did not but started using it when my sleep started to suffer (the respiratory issues Mark mentions above). The Diamox definitely seemed to help with periodic breathing and respiratory depression; I didn’t see much difference between the approaches wrt to these issues. One caution: the diuretic effect is real and you need to plan for it.
ParticipantFollowing up on my first post…
I am used to figuring out and working through injuries and while I think that there is a lot of good information for self-care available, seeing a physical therapist (and possibly a doctor) for a diagnosis and a treatment plan will probably increase the odds of healing. One example: What I assumed was bicep tendonitis turned out to be adhesive capsulitis along with tendonitis in several parts of my shoulder, which required an MRI, a non-surgical procedure and six months of physical therapy to restore most of my range-of-motion and strength. Working with the PT, I got good feedback and modifications to the work I was doing in line with my body’s response to the work; I didn’t have to depend completely on my own assessment, which was often overly optimistic. I hate to admit it but I would not have figured this out on my own.
Bottom line: dealing with chronic injuries and pain, especially for older athletes, often requires professional help. If the DIY approach is not giving you relief in relatively short order, it is time to have someone with appropriate experience take a look.
ParticipantJane – I have. But for the same reason that I can’t carry a pack, I can’t do burpees, turkish getups, goblet squats, etc. right now and that is a substantial portion of this workout. Worst case, I will do what I can using this as a starting point. Thanks!
ParticipantGood morning! I am wondering about your max heart rate because 179 seems on the high end for AnT. How did you determine your AnT? As a rough estimate, using Heart Rate Reserve (Max HR – Resting HR), you can calculate AeT at HRRx0.75 + RHR and AnT at HRRx0.85 + RHR. As an example, my tested AeT and AnT are pretty close to these calculated estimates.
Another observation… are recovery weeks at 50% of your current training volume really letting you recover? How do you actually feel during recovery?
As another data point, I was fairly aerobically fit when I started the UA training programs but still met the definition for ADS. I started seeing speed and endurance improvements pretty quickly but my AeT didn’t move much for the first four or five months. It has gone up a bit since them but given my age and current max heart rate, it probably isn’t going to go up much more.
Good luck with your training!
Bill
ParticipantI had a conversation about this with Mark Postle during one of our mountaineering training zoom calls. Of course the answer is, it depends, but… the discussion suggested that most of the aerobic improvement will show up in speed and power without moving AeT a lot unless you are really unfit when you start. If you are doing 12 to 15 hours of Z2 work, you aren’t in that category.
Part of this seems to be related to AnT; it is just hard to get the difference between AeT and AnT to less than ten percent unless you are training at an elite level. And once it is less than ten percent, it is almost impossible to move. Part of it may also be related to age. My AeT is limited by age, as my maximum heart rate decreases, so has my AnT and AeT. If you are already pretty fit, raising your AeT is going to be hard, even if improving your power and AeT endurance is not.
But, after all, if your speed and power continue to improve, whatever your AeT might be, does it really matter? Your endurance is improving, you are getting faster, you are getting stronger, which is really the point of all this.
Cheers,
BillParticipantI am on my second round of training using the UA twelve week plan, which comes after six or so months of steady, slow aerobic training. Some observations…
As predicted in TFUA and TFNA, when I started, keeping my HR under AeT (measured by two drift tests) required painfully slow speeds when climbing. Over six months of following the plan – lots of hours of Z2 hiking, starting on low grade (less than ten percent) and gradually mixing in steeper terrain (greater than fifteen percent) – I’ve watched my under-AeT speed almost double, though my AeT hasn’t really changed. Now I am doing weighted pack carries on steeper terrain at a faster pace with less effort then my original lower grade, weight-free hikes. That’s a long way of saying “give the program time and stick to it, it works (dataset of one, of course)”.
Do a proper AeT drift test a couple of times to set your AeT. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that it just works better than RPE or breathing assessments.
If you’ve been living in the HIIT or cross-fit training world for any length of time, like I was, you are likely to find a lot of the TFUA guidance to be counter to your understanding of what works. If you can overcome the resulting resistance and give the approach six months, you are likely to be quite happy with the results.
Yes, condition-specific training is better than non-condition-specific training but lots of people here are demonstrating that it is possible to do very well when one has limited access to steep terrain.
Good luck!
ParticipantI am curious (and a little skeptical) about adjustments like this… my biggest question is what’s the goal? More accurate CTL? Something else? More importantly, does using them improve outcomes? For example, does it lower the probability of over-training?
Thanks,
BillParticipantBrad – This summer I am planning to do a series of hikes/scrambles including South Sister, the peaks around Crater Lake and a group in Indian Heaven Wilderness. Then I am shooting for Mount Saint Helens, Mount Hood, Mount Adams, and finally, Rainier. Hope you enjoy the route in Forest Park! – Bill