Impressive dedication dave and briguy. I absolutely agree about the value of ME training, although I have my own routines for that, which took form over the past decade but accomplish the same thing. Maybe because running has been my outlet of choice for a few decades, but excluding the first one or two sessions back in the gym after some type of break or the first big downhill training session, which might leave me wrecked for a few days, I wonder about regular workouts that would do that. Tired for a day maybe two, ok, and on the odd occasion some DOMS (which for me hits in the 24-48 hour window), ok, but never sore enough to negatively impact running.
Of course, how we distribute our training efforts likely reflects what we each feel are our strengths and weaknesses and where we gain the most for our efforts. Running volume has worked best for me (mentally as much as physically), with strength training tailored to fit within whatever training phase I might be in. Whereas both of you seem to do your ME workouts as a stand-alone session, I back it mostly onto a morning commute run. But this is the fun of the learning process – finding what works for ourselves for any given objective.
Good luck on the 200 miler.
rich.b
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Participantrich.b on September 15, 2020 at 3:39 am · in reply to: Maintaining strength after the ME at home plan #45053Participantrich.b on September 12, 2020 at 11:46 pm · in reply to: Maintaining strength after the ME at home plan #45004
Dave, Dada’s link to an earlier discussion is helpful. Two other things to consider are — as a master’s athlete – to not necesessarily view a training week as 7 days. This is highly individual and relates back to the time you need to recover from any harder training sessions. Ned Overend (veteran cyclist) has been quoted in numerous places as saying he trains as hard at 60 as earlier, only it takes longer. Obviously for most of us, longer outings only fit on the weekends, but for harder sessions like intervals or gym-sessions these may need to spread out a bit more. The second thing is to at least go into maintainence mode for strength/ME training and do not go on hiatus. At 57 I have found it best to at least maintain the foundation, I think it helps with overall durability.
Participantsgw – a bit of tangent from the question involved, but I would be curious what HR levels you sustained on the longer climb and on average? I am curious simply because most of the HR data others show in UA and elsewhere are very different from mine (such as thresholds beyond my max HR), and for once I see resting and max HR in line with mine. Resting for me is 40±2 and max is (probably) upper-160s now at 57 (tested at 172 in 2017), but upper-170s 10 years ago. Although these numbers are completely within the published ranges for long-term, well-trained masters runners, I have always found my HR to be 10-15 beats lower than other runners I know – a difference not age or training related. Obviously, HR is individual; hence why we need to assess our own values to be useful.
On a steady uphill run with a final 1.2 km hands-on-knees steeper section done at good, but not all-out effort, I maintain a steady 140-149 average per km over 40 min (with max values in the steep section of 150-157). With similar conditions for a section of a race, I can sustain a bit higher average values 149-153 (also for periods as long as 40 min). By comparison for a flat run, I don’t break 100 until around 5:30/km, 115 at 5:00 (8 min/mi), and won’t hit the limit defined by Maffetone (180-age+5=128) until getting down to 4:16/km (most find they have to slow way down to stay below this level); these values were similar 10 years ago, so at least these HR vs pace values have not changed with ageing (although RPE is higher now at the faster end).
Coming back to the initial curiousity question, do you experience similar HR ranges?
And as Scott wrote, I don’t find Garmin’s algorithms to mean much. But I will admit I rely mainly on RPE anyway.ParticipantScott and Scott have given specific responses, but it is useful to comment on Friel’s Fast After 50. As with Uphill Athlete, who emphasize having a foundation first, Friel makes clear the assumption that the reader already trains, has trained for a long time, and understands structured training. That is, they already have the foundation. The key point he is making that for many ageing athletes declines in observed/experienced performance are not all age related, and that some of that decline is the result of a gradual retreat to comfort-zone training and avoidance of the harder workouts. This includes both the interval work and the strength work in the gym. Those that maintain volume and quality of training see slower age-related declines than those who maybe retain volume but cease the harder workouts.
Scott and Steve touched on much of this in their recent podcast on the ageing endurance athlete (consistency, strength work, don’t stop – amongst other rules). Getting back to Friel, he is advocating that ageing athletes need to re-introduce intensity into their training if competitive performance is the goal; this is, proper interval training as also discussed in Uphill Athlete, where the duration of those intervals vary according to event duration. If I remember correctly this was ?10% of training, or thereabouts. Friel cites many of the same studies and training principles as TfUA, such as the research from Norwegian groups. And as Scott wrote above, introduce them gradually, as well as don’t get injured (rule #2?). And enjoy the process.ParticipantI should add — given this is under ski mountaineering — that it helps me with uphill strength and endurance for ski mountaineering as well (now that I have started that this past winter/spring).
ParticipantScott,
Yes, aerobic work for the 3-month period was all cycling. For context it was during winter months, which means heavier studded tires and cold and snow and thus less easy-spinning kms. I still compensated with a couple extra hours riding per week compared to running time before PF. Because I had an alpine race on the early summer horizon I did do one indoor session, typically with some type of intervals as described (an ’alpine clime’ with increasing resistenc or 30-60 sec intervals paired with the rapid weighted squats).
Strength sessions were essentially in line with TfUA’s recommendations, with emphasis on higher loads and fewer reps. One benefit from this, besides the strength benefits, has been that I experience less DOMS as compared to more reps and less weight. Focus is mainly on free weights and the classics: Squats, deadlifts, standing press, etc. My absolute favorite session (which I cannot do if PF flares up) is Curtis P (from formerly called Mountain Athlete).
After 3 months I transitioned back to running-centric training over about 2 months, and found the endurance and strength directly transferable.
Another quick comment about whether the mental aspects of slogging on a bike transfer to running — absolutely! I was certain that running up to 3000 m elevation (I live at sea level) would not be worse than riding at -20C in snow and dark.ParticipantWhen running is not an option than certainly cycling is a great alternative (at least better than the alternative of not training). I have spent some time searching the research literature, and there is not much of specific use there.
Some years back I had an alpine race (45+ km with 2500 m climbing) planned for early summer, but had a bout of plantar fasciitis during late fall–early winter, which wound up being 3 months with no running. Consequently – as your situation – cycling was my only endurance option. There were three parts to my altered training regime: endurance cycling outdoors (winter riding using a single speed, which in cold and snow is work), one indoor workout per week that was interval focused, and a strength training phase in the gym. The indoor workout was one of two approaches: 1) high-intensity intervals (ranging from 30 sec to 2 min) with 10 squats holding a 15 kg weight after each interval then 1-2 min recovery, or 2) an ‘alpine climb’ with increase in resistance every 2 min with the final hardest levels using my hands on my knees as I would do on a steep climb running, also. These sessions included 15 min warm-up, 30 min of the workout part and 15 min warm-down for a total of an hour. For strength training I did 2 sessions per week with one session focused on near or max weights with few reps – thus focusing on strength not mass.
I found this worked extremely well and transferred well; with muscular endurance well developed I spent the transition back into running working on running endurance and later some specific uphill/downhill sessions. Again, when running is not an option, you can make cycling work.ParticipantGarret, I would second your preference to do an easy ride as a rest day – although I prefer to label it active recovery. I have always found it helpful to get some low-intensity, non-impact movement to loosen up a bit.
[That said, no matter my injury or recovery needs I have to get in an early morning 30-min bikejoring session for my dog’s training.]ParticipantThis relates back to Thomas Summer’s earlier question on the fundamental cause: a running aquaintance and I both experienced a similar problem to yours – but without getting to the point of the tear or stress fracture. In both of our cases, separate PTs identified inactivation of one of the gluteus muscles, which led eventually to overuse injury elsewhere (groin/pubis pain/inflammation). Was kind of hilarious when my PT demonstrated it. Retraining the neurological contact with specific movements was part of the rehab process.
Pete Dickinson – maybe you have encountered this in your practice?ParticipantYour descriptions are fairly parallel with my first bout of PF; I was ramping up on speedwork. It was rather focused on a particular area, but as you find, I could not identify the spot by pressing on it. Similarly it felt like I always had a lump in my sock at the point (whether I had shoes and socks on or not). It is quite a while ago, but I believe the onset was fairly quick (or at least my recognition of something going on).
Nonetheless, the ideal would be to get help identifying where the problem lies in order to target the best rehab/management strategy. This can prevent the possibility of winding up with a longer-term issue that impacts training. (I’m still a slow learner in this regard.)
ParticipantThis description would point to the possibility of plantar fasciitis. Your descriptions fit well with my 2 experiences with PF: first time was lateral towards the 5th metatarsal, the second time was more classic in the midfoot and toward the heel.
What to do is dependent on establishing if the problem is PF or something else, so it is helpful to get help to establish what is going on. If PF, my experience is that running through it does not work (I am slow to learn with injuries). Tackling the inflammation short term (NSAIDS and ice) is helpful, but not a solution.
For me – and I can only phrase it as my experience – it required that I switch from running to biking (not training was not an option). Well into the first round of PF (after x-rays excluded a stress fracture of the 5th metatarsal) I finally got some good help from a PT, mostly in the form of his recommendation to 1) use a supporting insole (not a custom orthotic) to provide some relief to the PF, and 2) tape-up the sole of my foot (plenty of demonstration videos are out there on YouTube) to support the PF. With these I could gradually shift back toward running. Because of my delay in dealing with it the first time, this wound up taking 6 months before getting back to my normal running volume (total volume was maintained with cycling, and in fact increased to compensate for cycling vs running). Second time around, I understood the problem and quickly mixed in cycling and strategic use of the insoles and/or tape when I did run, and PF was resolved within 3 months (with careful management since then anytime any related sensations pop up – but it has been a few years since last).
There are other helpful rehab measures, but the key is correctly identify what is the root of your issues.
ParticipantA few other points to consider in addition to Sam’s points, Dada.
1. Is that weight measurement a single occasion, or is it a systematic increase? Travel (flying being worst, although that’s not happening these days) or a saltier meal or even a pasta meal can cause 1+ kg water retention for me for c. 24 hours.
2. Is there some change in your training that might lead to gain in muscle mass? With 2 months of skijoring this spring rather than bikejoring (which I typically count separately from ‘my’ training hours) and starting up with some skimo added 2 kg for me.
3. Mainly just because I do not like to bring along more than I have to, up to about 3 hours of running or biking I rarely bring food or water (unless it is hot, than some water). typically these longer sessions are only a couple hours after breakfast, so I am fueled, but it happens sometimes that either i) the run/ride went longer than expected; or the time distance from breakfast is longer. While these long runs/rides go just fine (with an occasional bonk), I can be a bit hungry when I do get back in through the door. On those occasions I may over-compensate on calorie intake because of the deficit. Hunger does not always reflect what your body really needs, so it can be something to consider.