frnkr the 13 mile run I referenced was 2:15, not 2 hours, and I only got 130hrTSS but 150rTSS because my Z1/2 pace is getting faster. Looking closer, even though my intention was Z1 I was in Z2 the majority of the run. I probably need to do another Ant test for threshold HR and pace so I get more accurate TSS.
hikerobby
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ParticipantParticipant
For perspective, I ran 13 road miles in 2 hours (Z1) a few days ago and only was awarded 150TSS.
I notice my average HR the past two XC ski trips w other people is 100-115bpm, which is about where I am out when I just walk to the corner store, so XC skiing is just recovery work. When I go XC skiing alone, I go faster but still only average 135bpm, which is still low Zone 1 for me (Aet=160 & AnT=173).
If I use 20-40tss/hour for Z1 and 50-60tss/hr for Z2, then my XC skiing w friends would be 60-90 for three hours. I just nerded out for a while, and I think I computed that multiplying the HrTSS by 0.70-0.80 may account for low HR when cruising downhills and be more accurate to perceived effort.
Participant“We have had good success using slopes ranging from 30–100 percent grades (17–45 degrees).”
The steepest trail around is 30% and that’s still not close to 60%. Stairs would work but I def couldn’t go uphill for 60 minutes like the ME workout says. If I lived in the alpine or desert I could find things, but bushwhacking up a rainy fern-covered hill in winter is going to be miserable.
ParticipantMost stairs are 37 degrees or about 75% grade. So 45 degree slope is actually very steep. Think about 55 degree ice that’s a legit climb
ParticipantI may be confused, that’s for sure. I am 90 minutes from a ski hill, and my understanding is that blue runs are typically 25-40% grade. A 100% grade is one foot vertical and one horizontal which is 45 degrees and typically double black diamond. The toughest Tour De France grades are about 10% and only occasionally are the steepest driveways over 20%. According to TP the steepest hill I have done has a 40% grade and that was using hands often, more of a scramble. The one I regularly run is pretty steep at 18% and most people wouldn’t hike it. In Scotts ME video, he says use a 50-60% grade, and I am thinking that would be a 5.2 rock climb or steep ravine. But I am confused bc the 50% slope he said he was doing in his video did not seem like he could have reached out and touched the side with his hand like I have done on 50% slopes.
ParticipantWell I repeated the test, this time on a track, which is super boring but more accurate. I got a Pa:Hr of 3.8 at 161BPMs. So I guess I have a fairly high Aet. Kinda bummed bc it feels like a lot of effort to run like that, doesn’t seem like I could run forever, also bummed that I need to get rid of my Z2 training bc my Ant is 168 (likely higher, I need to retest). We have come full circle: I started this training journey walking or barely jogging and now I guess I go back to that after 14 weeks of training!
My pace for road versus trail is very different. I could never run at 8:15 road pace and often run less than 15:00 pace in the mtns. I am still unsure how to test Aet for trail running without a method to keep grade consistent for 60 minutes.
ParticipantYou’ll have to let me know how they compare, once you purchase the Big Vert plan @rachelp !
ParticipantWould I be right to assume that Luke’s plan is easier (similar to the Mountaineering plan) where it just tells you what to do every day, whereas Mike’s plan takes some computing every day to figure out how to apply the plan to your event? Also, I don’t have a pool for Luke’s swim workouts…… Do both plans only use dumbells/vests or do either use barbell work?
ParticipantI also don’t know how to not compare apples to oranges. Either I run fast on flats and hold HR steady and use Pa:Hr to see change in pace…. or I hold incline and speed constant on a treadmill and see change in HR. My main form of training is trail running which isn’t well replicated by either of those options.
ParticipantSo yeah, since the course is not slightly downhill on the second half, and having my Pa:Hr at 1.9 only 6 BPMs below my Ant makes no sense to me.
ParticipantI do most of my training running on trails (walking uphills and running the rest, my HR would be too low if I don’t run). I do my Aet tests on flats bc that is what the directions say. As for my course, if anything it is uphill at the end. But it’s quite flat, gain of 30 loss of 16 feet. I would love to link my files but I can’t figure out how, the posts don’t post when they have links in them.
As for my perceived exertion, the 140bpm seems super slow, but that is what ya’ll say it should feel like at first. The 152 test felt good. The 162 test felt way too fast, I needed to stop right at 60 minutes. I was doing bw 9:30 and 10 minute miles at that heart rate. My Ant test was on a steep hill and my NGP was 9:00/miles.
ParticipantWell, I tried to really overshoot it today. I ran the same outdoor flat street course at 152 and again my Pa:Hr was BELOW zero: -0.63!!!
What does it mean? This is the second test I got below zero.
If I shot from 133 to 160 in 10 weeks I would be amazed
ParticipantI guess I’m not surprised that a slog uphill is less efficient than a lithe run on flats. Just was surprised to find my Aet may be getting closer to my Ant of 168 than I ever thought possible. The treadmill was only on 15%. I don’t think I was more rested, maybe just having a good day and being outdoors is better than on a treadmill.
ParticipantSo I did this test again yesterday, this time outdoors, on one of my 1:30 Aet runs. I had a gain and loss of less than 50 feet on roads. I ran for 1:30 targetting 140bpms, my average HR was actually 142 and my Pa:Hr was between -0.26 to 1.5 depending on which section I highlight.
Since that is very much below 3% does that suggest my Aet is actually higher than 142? That would be awesome but it would also surprise me that I have a higher Aet outdoors than in the treadmill test I wrote about above.
ParticipantThanks for this and many of your other detailed forum replies Scott! It’s so valuable to all of us that are using your resources!