As per the article you have the link to, the fitter you are the more polarized your training needs to be. It looks like you are fit enough to benefit. So make the easy days easy (low zone 2 or zone 1) so that you can make the hard days hard. I usually train about 7-10% below my AeT on easy days.
bbarlin10
Forum Replies Created
-
ParticipantParticipant
Wow seems great to me. I think it is all a matter of perspective. Not sure of your age, training background, available training time, etc. Your AeT and AnT are close, so great. Now it’s time to add intensity. Done properly, in conjunction with keeping your base work up, you will see speed increases. If you are a slow twitch muscle kind of athlete, it will take longer, but you will see improvements. Remember speed is many components, including strength, and given your numbers, you should be able to make progress. Also, don’t compare yourself to someone in an article. Yes there are some superior athletes that train using this method and trying to compare yourself without knowing if it is a fair comparison seems like a good way to get depressed.
ParticipantMy MAF has me at 115 (age 65). My actual AeT after almost 3 years of work is 140 with my AnT at 155 so right at 10% delta. I would take the MAF and use it as a starting point. Obviously you are already beyond that, which is excellent. There is no absolute number, you want it to be as high as possible and you want it as close to your AnT as possible. If you have not already looked on this website, there are several articles and podcasts on this subject. It’s “all about the base”. Now just keep putting in the sub AeT hours/miles.
ParticipantThe 24 Week Mountaineering plan at it’s peak only has about 14-15 hours per week. 12 hours per week was good enough for Aconcagua, but that is a non-technical peak. Before I left for Argentina here is what I was doing per week:
5 hours of sub-AeT cardio with a pack with 20% Body Weight.
3 of strength training/stretching.
1 hour of Muscular Endurance.
One 2-3 hour run.It took me about 2 years to get to this level.
If your climbs will be technical, it will probably be more. Here is my experience. For the older athlete to climb big peaks with moderate technical work, we have to hit a higher level of fitness to achieve the same results that a younger person would. From this post: https://uphillathlete.com/mountaineering/fit-to-climb-everest/#:~:text=To%20climb%20Denali%20you%20want,of%20125%2B%20for%20three%20months
Scott gives examples of what it takes to climb Denali and Everest. For Denali they have a benchmark of 75 in TP. I know from experience that even with my current score of 85, I could not climb Denali. When I summited I would guess I was training about 20 hours per week and was 15 years younger. So I would guess that my fitness was approaching 120 in relative terms. Back then there was no TP. So I would guess add 20-25% more to achieve the same results that someone in their 30s would and then add a factor for the technical difficulty. I wish they would show us the TP Performance Management Chart for Art Muir, the 76 year old that summited Everest in 21. Be interesting to compare. Not trying to depress you, just being realistic. Steve’s most recent podcast again emphasizes there is no quick route to fitness.
I don’t think the summer with unlimited time will help. Unfortunately your body will only accept so much stress before it breaks. There are several good Podcasts on this subject. Being at altitude just makes it happen quicker. Problem is that when you are climbing you are withdrawing from your fitness account, much as you would money from a bank. If your climb is technical/difficult/high altitude (i.e. not a trekking peak) you will run out of “money” and depending on where you are on your climb it could be dangerous. It is unreasonable to assume that you gain fitness while climbing!
To answer your first question, as a compromise, I would try to lose at least 15 lbs before I started a lot of training. Then accept the rest and work on your fitness. Merry Christmas, although I feel like the Grinch.
ParticipantI usually just use my Apple watch, wear it to bed to get my HRV. I had to use a program called HealthFit to get all the different data to TP, it works great. Besides my HRV, I get sleep and weight from my wifi scale. It will work with a lot of devices including Garmin and it’s free!
The 7 hour video series is a very good intro to the methodology for any endurance sport, don’t worry about mountaineering specific at your stage of learning, and it is cheap! However you need the book as backup reference material. I watched it 3 times and referred to the book repeatedly while trying to understand the concepts well enough. This is a very inexpensive way to get an introduction to the methodology. The training plans are cheap as well. There is plenty of articles and podcasts here to help you modify one. If you can’t afford a trainer you can get there, it will just take more effort.
Now to the real issues:
I am 65 and holding mid 80’s on TP. This is after about 2 years of effort with a long history of aerobic and strength training (not always the correct training but consistent over the years). So first I would say that is an aggressive time period. I am training about 12 hours per week to keep that number. By the time my rest day comes I am beat. We don’t recover nearly as quickly. So first question is given your BMI can you really ramp up that much training while trying to maintain a calorie deficit at 60? Trying to lose 30+ pounds in 9 months (based on your original post date) while pounding out the hours is a misery and very demotivating. It will really mess up your recovery. Second, how aerobically deficient are you? You need to baseline your current AnT and see if you are within the magic 10%. If you are really deficient it could take a long time before you can start doing enough hours to really knock off 30 lbs. Unfortunately AeT work does not burn calories very fast. So you have to put in lots of hours, but you are probably not ready to do 2-3 hours a day I would guess.
You don’t really need a special plan for age, you just have to realize it is going to take much longer to get to your goals than a 20 year old. You can do it but I would say more like 2 years, not 9 months. After 2 years of work I did Aconcagua and it was a great experience. Started out with 5 other members in our group, all in their 30’s and only myself and one other group member summited. This stuff works, but over 60 just be patient and have realistic goals. Cheers
Participantbbarlin10 on September 8, 2022 at 8:11 pm · in reply to: Training for Mountaineering – Stair Master vs. Treadmill #70662I assume you are using a NordicTrac Incline Treadmill, since I don’t know of another with 40% capability. I have one, as well as a Stairmaster Stepmill 8. Let me give my own personal experience with these 2 machines. I can train on the NordicTrac up to about 25% incline before I have to hold on to the handles (my old ankles only bend so far), which completely changes the dynamic of the climb. Also the NordicTrac has a safety feature which slows the machine down when you grab the handles, really killing the workout. To further complicate things the NordicTrac motor is weak and as you push to keep moving at the higher incline, you get crazy speed ups since the machine doesn’t have enough power to overcome strong legs. So then you grab the handles because the the machine makes you feel unsafe and it then slows way down. For me, anything over 25% incline on the NordicTrac is just not effective. Possibly those with highly flexible ankles and calves would be able to go to higher inclines and not touch the handles.
The Stepmill 8 is about 60% incline, but unlike the NordicTrac, I always feel very stable no matter how fast I go and it always keeps consistent speed. However, the Stairmster Stepmill, has rotating steps that fall away under you while you climb. So you need to apply a adjustment factor to get the correct vertical distance achieved. Good news is that the Stepmill, because of the height of the steps, 8″ and the rotating mechanism, it is less of a hit than a traditional stepper. On a stepper, I would use a vertical distance adjustment of 1/2. On the Stepmill I use a factor of 3/4 (i.e. 1,000 ft would be recorded as 750ft of elevation gain).
So what I do is use the NordicTrac for Zone 1 or 2 workouts with weight in my pack up to the 25% incline. I use the Stepmill with less weight to do Zone 2 workouts to break things up and then put in more weight to do ME workouts. I don’t think think there is a perfect machine for everything. I live in central Texas (completely flat) and really have tried many other machines (stepper, rower, bike, elliptical) but keep coming back to these two and some outdoor running (when it is under 100 degrees lol). I am old (65), so for someone younger the amount of weight or pace might change but I think everything else applies. Hope that helps.
ParticipantThanks for the reply. Is there anyway that you could post a picture showing a couple of angles of the boot/crampon together? Thanks
ParticipantI am not going to answer your question directly because I’m not qualified. However there is a bigger question here. Not sure from your post what sport you’re guiding but when I have been AT Skiing or Hiking/climbing the guides always have huge packs. If you are guiding with a big pack and still well below zone 1 then yes you are not contributing to your aerobic base. So the question is “what is important”? If you are earning a living then so be it, we all got to eat. But if at the same time you want to do a first ascent or FKT then the question is what is more important. I have read many conversations along these lines and the usual response is (paraphrased) “you have to make a choice”. There are only so many hours in a day and if you want to reach a really hard goal then you may have to stop guiding. The rest will fall out from your choice. If it were me and I was not training for a big goal, I would rest when I was tired, because after all what would it matter? Just my .02c.
Participantbbarlin10 on March 21, 2021 at 11:52 am · in reply to: NordicTrack Incline Treadmill Accuracy Issue #52258Good to know. As to sticker, I put gorilla tape on the deck and then the sticker on the gorilla tape.
Participantbbarlin10 on March 20, 2021 at 7:19 am · in reply to: NordicTrack Incline Treadmill Accuracy Issue #52231Unfortunately the real app you want is Heartbeatz which is only for Apple. It has all the data you want and appears to be where NPE is putting their S/W development. The GymTrakr is a POS and does not work reliably. NPE lists a number of apps that I have not tried as compatible. “Compatible with fitness apps and watches that track a footpod.” is their claim. So if you have a Polar or a Garmin watch you should be able to see the data being produced. Have you tried either of these units?
As to accuracy, the NT calibration is a joke, don’t trust it. You are on the right track with a bubble level. As to what you are seeing, it depends on where you measure your baseline. Is it on the decking or the plastic frame? It is all relative to where you are mounting the unit. Not saying you didn’t measure properly but a picture like the ones I posted would help.
At the end of the day, as long as you use the same metrics each day, your progress will be trackable over time on Training Peaks. However if you are like me I want credit for every foot I climb!
ParticipantHey that’s great. Shared memories with your son are priceless. I climbed Kilimanjaro a couple of years ago with my daughter. Wonderful.
You probably have already thought this through but just to give you some numbers. The route is 50 miles. My friend who is in his 40’s and a distance runner did it in 13 hours, he is in amazing shape and said it was the hardest thing he had ever done. It is really difficult to sustain that pace going uphill. For instance it is about 22 miles from Bright Angel Campground and 5800 vertical feet to the top at N Rim with a constant elevation gain. So maybe walking the up hills? If yes then you have to obviously go much faster on the flats. Don’t forget you have about 5100 vertical feet up on the way back to S Rim. For comparison I did it in 22 hours at a fast walk/jog where I could and the uphill slogs at a walk. My downhill was kinda slow too, have to watch out for old knees. I am simply not capable of running a fast pace for 50 miles and never will be again. But I can walk fast for extended periods as long as I stay below my AeT.
I have a suggestion. Reserve a room at the N Rim lodge. It sells out quickly so get it far in advance. Then if you are destroyed by the pace you have an insurance policy. You can rest over night, get a couple of meals and finish the next day. If you have support, like a spouse, you could have her meet you with camping gear and you could stay at the N Rim campground for cheap (they also have showers there). Good luck, it will be memorable (or epic) anyway you look at it.
ParticipantScott agree I’ve sent him multiple links to your website. I will convert him.
ParticipantThanks that makes sense. I just don’t feel that fit. I know TP is just an approximate measure of fitness but according to this https://uphillathlete.com/fit-to-climb-everest/ “In terms of CTL: Denali 75 | Everest 100 | Everest without supplemental oxygen 125”. When I last climbed Denali I felt way more fit. However I was exercising, not training, so maybe that was the false feeling. I guess I need to get to altitude again and see.
ParticipantDiana,
Thank you. I’m just an old guy trying to stay young. After 2 bouts with cancer, getting out and training is how I reaffirm that I’m alive and kicking.
Participantbbarlin10 on November 19, 2020 at 9:55 am · in reply to: Budget treadmill/incline trainer for elevation gain #47074So I have both a used NT and a used Stairmaster. NordicTrack X22I was $600 (precovid) and the stairmaster was about $1000. The NT works fine and for $600 if it goes belly up no big deal. It only had 20 hours use, like most machines you would buy from a non commercial source. I usually use it at about 20% grade, that is pretty good with a pack with 20% body weight for a AeT workout. Plus I’m doing the walk to Everest Basecamp series of workouts (their Ifit workouts), which is pretty cool. As to the calibration I did this article to address the issues you discussed https://uphillathlete.com/forums/topic/nordictrack-incline-treadmill-accuracy-issue/
I usually use the StairMaster for ME type workouts. I got it from one of the places that buys gyms that are closing and resells the equipment. Great deal for a gym level pice of equipment.
It really burns the legs. Still trying to figure out how to connect the workouts to Training Peaks though. When I figure it out I’ll post another article.Bottom line is if you are in a vertically challenged part of the country you have to make do. Buying used equipment is the only way to go. With covid closing so many gyms, I would expect a lot of high end equipment to be on the market in the next few months.