Your Diet Sucks x Uphill Athlete

00:01.41
Alyssa
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Uphill Athlete podcast. And I’m going to say the Uphill Athlete podcast times that your diet sucks podcast today, because I am joined by two amazing athletes, business woman just all around.

00:20.01
Alyssa
incredible people who started a podcast ah called Your Diet Sucks and they were kind enough to come on the Uphill Athlete podcast today to speak with us. So Kylee and Zoe are happy to have you on.

00:34.74
Zoe – YDS
Pumped to be here, Alyssa.

00:36.53
Kylee Van Horn
Yeah, excited. Thanks for having us.

00:39.38
Alyssa
Of course. So I’d love to hear just a little bit about both of you and also ah just a bit about why you started the podcast and what it’s about. Yeah, so if you want to take it away first.

00:53.22
Zoe – YDS
Sure. So, you know, Kylee and I have been best friends for like five, going on five years now. I actually met her while she was screwing her husband at a world record attempt a few years ago. And I was like, this is the smartest person I have ever met. We need to be best friends. And We started doing a lot of runs together, and since she was a registered dietitian nutritionist, I was getting a lot of free nutrition coaching and advice, which was very helpful for me. But as you know both a journalist and an athlete in eating disorder recovery, my friendship with Kylee sort of revealed how many things

01:30.36
Zoe – YDS
I was wrong about nutrition, how many mistakes I was making, or how many misconceptions or misperceptions I had. And For me, like my curiosity has always peaked when I find out all the ways in which I am incorrect about things, because being wrong is the most exciting jumping off point to find a more interesting story and to figure out how to be right. and so you know, a lot of the subject matter of this podcast, if it’s like weird, you know, fad diets or emerging science or cultural narratives are the kind of like juicy topics that Kylee and I like to talk about when we’re on our runs or when we’re, you know, bonding over over a glass of rosé. And I just thought like, wow, like, we both have this amazing professional experience, we should combine it in a format for more

02:20.58
Zoe – YDS
people because she has this amazing nutritional background. And I, as a journalist, I’m essentially a professional question asker. And I thought that that would give us a pretty unique perspective to story tell from.

02:36.41
Alyssa
I love that. I will just quickly add that I have not heard many people say that being wrong is the jumping off point of asking more questions and learning more. And I just want to highlight that because that is incredible.

02:48.53
Alyssa
I wish a lot more people had that perspective. So that’s amazing.

02:52.44
Zoe – YDS
Oh yeah, thinking you’re right is the worst thing you can be for a journalist, especially.

02:53.51
Alyssa
um But yeah, Kylee, I’d love to hear a bit from you. Yeah, yeah.

02:59.18
Kylee Van Horn
Well, I think, yeah, that was one thing too that like every episode that we have, we always want to examine the topic from both sides to see, you know, what research exists on both ends of the spectrum and in between as well, and then help people navigate that information. And we might end up at the end of the episode saying like, well, you know, here’s the nuance, but you kind of still Yeah, here’s this is up to you to make that decision. But we’re trying to present it in a way that’s going to allow people to make their own decision in an informed way versus like a um something that’s biased and and they’re just getting on the social media or something.

03:46.56
Alyssa
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense tonight. I’ve listened to some of the episodes and I do really enjoy coming to the end and not feeling like I necessarily am being corralled one way or another. It’s just like, hi, no more. Awesome. Like I can make a more informed decision. So yeah, definitely doing your job there. Um, so today I’ve asked the two of you to dive into the topic of fad diets, um I think, you know, we see them very commonly in running. I think I also see uphill kind of comes from the perspective of we’ll say like general mountain athletes, incredibly common. um Yeah, the ah the whole facet

04:34.88
Alyssa
training and a low-carb diet, all of that. So we kind of want to focus on fad diets today and I’ll start off with why do you see endurance athletes as being the most susceptible or very susceptible to fad diets?

04:53.70
Zoe – YDS
Um, I’ll have Kylee speak from a more scientific perspective but from the cultural and narrative side of things. um We’re an extreme bunch of people. We spend a lot of our time in extreme environments around other extreme people and I think that that sort of like um that proclivity for extremity makes us additionally susceptible to being like well I already recreationally run a hundred miles and climb mountains for fun like, why would that extremity not also extend to my diet? Like, we’re doing a lot of, like, pretty intense training, and I think a lot of times, uh, endurance sports and mountain sports particularly attract a certain type of pretty tight-knit diet. A person, someone who’s incredibly driven and that drive can be a double-edged sword because it it on one hand is the thing that you know propels us to you know long distance finishes, it propels us off mountains, but sometimes if we don’t harness it in quite the right way that proclivity for like

05:54.10
Zoe – YDS
obsession that’s not properly channeled can sometimes catapult us into less productive ways of expressing that desire to push the envelope, less productive ways of trying to be excellent. And I think it’s just like that, we’re a self-selecting group of people who already do extraordinary things and are extraordinarily disciplined. And I think sort of like the shadow side of that can be like, well,

06:20.87
Zoe – YDS
why would that can also extend to sometimes restrictive diets or um the fact that like a lot of times mountain sports like become pretty insular communities when someone who like you know you’ve been tied into like like the the person that you trust who belays you does something and they say it works for them they have a sample size of one and they say well keto worked for me That can make you additionally susceptible to that, and it doesn’t mean that their in-of-one experience is wrong, but you might be over indexing on how important that very small sample size is.

06:56.56
Kylee Van Horn
Yeah. And then, um, from the, I feel like my perspective from the performance side, like when I’m working with people, they think that, in order to gain that extra small percentage, like the fad diet or the extreme thing is the way to go. And so they don’t want to just be like, well, that you said balanced nutrition. Like that’s not like a good enough answer for me. Um, so.

07:25.78
Kylee Van Horn
you know, that they latch on to A, like wanting to feel like they belong to some certain like community of like diet extreme, and then B, ah they want, I see it a lot for like trying to gain a performance advantage or like that extra percent, when in reality, like the thinking there might be a bit backwards.

07:50.11
Alyssa
From a coaching perspective, I couldn’t agree more.

07:53.29
Zoe – YDS
yeah

07:53.63
Alyssa
It’s like, I always liken it as a lot of times people are looking at step 59 and we’re still not doing one, two, and three that well.

08:04.82
Alyssa
So yeah, it’s, could not agree more.

08:11.72
Alyssa
So what are, and we’ve we’ve thrown out a couple, um but what are some of these fad diets that we commonly see for athletes?

08:22.06
Kylee Van Horn
I would say, I mean, while we see the low carb high fat a lot, I think particularly in mountain endurance sports, we see when we’re also talking about things like paleo or carnivore or those types of diets that are pretty extreme would be, I would say fads.

08:41.41
Zoe – YDS
I always caution people against investing in a diet that has good branding and name recognition because oftentimes the diets that work like balanced agnostic diets, like the Mediterranean diet, like they don’t have a cute little logo in a website where they can take your money. And I think that that is pretty revelatory about what the be all end all goal of a lot of these diets is.

09:05.23
Kylee Van Horn
like the primal blueprint or something by like Mark Sisson, like, you know, those kinds of things that you see by doctors that are like, you know, they’re just trying to make like a little bit of extra money.

09:09.79
Zoe – YDS
yeah

09:16.26
Kylee Van Horn
Like those are at the fad diets that you’re just like a red flag right there.

09:21.66
Zoe – YDS
I would even say that a hyper fixation on or an overemphasis on weight as being determinative for performance success is a fad. It’s not validated in the research and it sort of comes and goes depending on where our cultural sort of Pulse check is around what bodies we currently find acceptable, desirable, and worthy of value in our culture. You know, The sort of bodies that we lift up as athletes now are different from those we were lifting up five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago. And I think that people treating their bodies, the very stuff of their existence, as a passing fad

10:02.16
Zoe – YDS
is really, really detrimental, not just to performance, but to your overall well-being as well. And so I think that just like the focus on, wait, it’s a fad with staying power, but it is a fad.

10:16.40
Alyssa
Yeah, I think that’s a great point. I mean, I think a really good marketing strategy for your podcast could be just like a good healthy diet sticker.

10:27.50
Alyssa
Like, I don’t know if it would sell that well, but you know, like everything is like, oh, vegan, paleo, whatever. Like they’re literally the things on the package that will say that. Like you just say part of a well balanced, great, staying healthy diet.

10:41.37
Zoe – YDS
Yeah.

10:41.69
Kylee Van Horn
Except no one’s going to buy that is the thing.

10:41.89
Alyssa
Yeah.

10:43.69
Kylee Van Horn
So, um, yeah.

10:43.83
Alyssa
yeah

10:46.72
Kylee Van Horn
And I think, but also like, I just, I tried to on that note, like I just finished my, um, endurance feeling book, practical feeling for endurance athletes.

10:57.21
Kylee Van Horn
And I, I made the, yeah, like the conscious decision to not focus on weight and body composition in the book and really wanted to provide a resource for people that was.

10:57.88
Alyssa
Awesome!

11:09.70
Kylee Van Horn
science backed, but also easy to implement. And I think sometimes people get so overwhelmed with information out there, like even one-on-one clients that I’m working with, they’re just so overwhelmed that they latch onto the set of rules in this diet, because it’s like, oh, this is the way that I need to do things. And with more, maybe what they think is nebulous, like a more balanced um approach, they don’t really understand exactly how to implement that in the right way. And so providing them with steps, action steps or things that they can focus on like adding in or getting more of in, et cetera. And here’s how you break this down and approach it. I think that helps people, you know, they would just want something to be able to like, like kind of easily put into place in a way.

12:03.02
Alyssa
Yeah, absolutely. you know that’s As you were saying that, it makes me think so much of how we progress in training people. like A lot of times, I actually see heart rate training as almost like like the bumpers or the training wheels to help you to understand this more, in many ways, like fluctuating and nebulous range of RPE, which is where I tend to like to lead people because I always people who listen to the podcast know me to say that um I always joke if you’re on a mountain in Sasquatch, runs up and grabs your watch and throws it off the cliff, like what are you going to do? Are you just going to sit down and be like, I can’t, I don’t know my heart rate, what am I going to do? I can’t climb this mountain anymore. um And I feel like that’s probably very similar to how athletes feel of like,

12:49.07
Zoe – YDS
no, no.

12:49.43
Alyssa
Hey, I feel really drowned in having all this rage because I don’t haven’t been taught how to just listen to my body. um So I guess how do you help um athletes to kind of let go of that rigidity of those roles, kind of like working more towards that from ah from a strict diet to like, hey, we can undo this. I know that’s a huge question. So take it kind of as you will.

13:20.18
Kylee Van Horn
I mean, I think, I think, um, here’s the thing is like, there are certain things that we know are going to help endurance athletes perform nutrition wise. So I think chatting with athletes about certain things in particular, I’m thinking about carbohydrates and like, I like to teach my athletes, like for a lot of my athletes, if they’ve just been told to eat enough, that doesn’t help them.

13:44.66
Kylee Van Horn
So they want more specifics on things like, okay, what does that look like? Like, what does this amount of carb look like for different days of training? And so I teach them how to kind of get themselves to a minimum. And then we focus on hunger and fullness because here’s the thing is like, uh, there are flaws with even just focusing on hunger and fullness, especially when you’re training a lot. So, you know, your leptin and ghrelin levels can be altered, which can make it difficult to discern like, should I be eating? Should I not be eating? So.

14:14.78
Kylee Van Horn
teaching people how to recognize what hunger and fullness looks like in the context of having some specificity, I think can actually be really empowering. And like, once you get a sense of like, okay, this is about how much carb I need on a heavier day of training, and you kind of get yourself close there and know how to listen to the body, if you need more, then that’s kind of where, you know, I’m i’m trying to help people understand that concept, I guess.

14:42.55
Zoe – YDS
And I would also say that you know for folks like me who are maybe on that journey of getting to listen to learning how to listen better to their bodies, like it is really normal that it is hard. like We live in a culture that like a lot of the messaging, particularly in the world of athletics and fitness, is trying to teach us to be skeptical of our bodies, is trying to sell us something so that we don’t listen to our bodies and we listen to a device or we listen to a diet or we listen to an influencer.

15:12.41
Zoe – YDS
or we listen to a guru or we listen to a training plan as opposed to learning how to prefer our own existence and our own experience. And I think that it just makes a lot of sense that sometimes people struggle with it. And I just wanted to, to validate that. But there are a lot of people who are benefiting from that struggle. And I think always being skeptical of like, why am I being told to not trust my hunger, or like, not in the case of like the leptin and ghrelin and things like there are like, yes,

15:40.37
Zoe – YDS
training does modify your hunger, but I’m speaking more in the terms of like when athletes are told to like, oh, drink water to suppress your appetite, have caffeine to suppress your appetite, or like, you know, don’t eat this or eat this only at certain times of days, because like, it’ll, you know, change your metabolism in this way. And a lot of that messaging can just really get our wires crossed. And that, yeah, I would just always urge people to come back to working with an expert like Kylee and also believing their own experience.

16:10.90
Alyssa
Yeah, Kylee, I have sent your Instagram. I loved when you were doing like the plates and that kind of like a very visual representation.

16:16.50
Kylee Van Horn
Mm hmm.

16:18.48
Alyssa
I have sent that to clients before and been like, hey, take a look at this, like just to give some kind of a basis. But I think one of the pieces, and I think this ties into, Zoe, what you touched on about personality traits is that so, like what we do is hard.

16:34.99
Alyssa
It is very challenging. You know you have to dig. quite deeply at the end of 100 miler or 50k climbing Everest. And so I think oftentimes we really associate that having to be tough and hard, I think also with our diets um as well. And so I’m curious how you kind of nudge athletes towards your diet and don’t have to suck, quite literally, like to prove that you’re tough enough to go do the hard thing.

17:13.98
Zoe – YDS
I, something I would say is I don’t think toughness is always inherently valuable, right? Like I could ram my head against a wall for 10 hours, which would be a very tough thing to do.

17:19.70
Alyssa
I agree.

17:25.09
Zoe – YDS
But the outcome of that is totally decoupled from any of my actual values. And I think that our culture sort of, again, gets its signals crossed and we forget how to celebrate the outcome or we forget how to celebrate perseverance in the process.

17:39.09
Zoe – YDS
And instead we just celebrate inherently like the, eat the thing that we think is easy to see. which is the toughness so you know you don’t like not everything needs to be banging your head against a wall for 10 hours and just because it’s harder doesn’t mean it’s better you know and i think that a lot of times again endurance sports we do kind of like to do things the hard way you know not sure what that says about us but it is true and so i think that that makes it incumbent upon us to be additionally cynical of like any sort of thought process that’s like this is hard so it inherently must be

18:11.62
Zoe – YDS
better.

18:12.26
Alyssa
Good, yeah.

18:12.52
Zoe – YDS
You could, you know, the hardest training is not going to be the most beneficial for you. You know, like I could go out and do Killian Jornet’s training, but the outcome is not going to be the same.

18:23.69
Zoe – YDS
And you know, whatever mental toughness I have in that process doesn’t guarantee the results that I actually care about.

18:33.11
Kylee Van Horn
And then I also challenge athletes sometimes to think about where you have this idea of like less is better, more restrictive practices, but like, have you tried the opposite approach or have you shifted that mindset to like, well, what if I do more? Like what would happen there? What if I tried to add magnesium in my diet or something like that? I’ve never actually done that. So like.

18:59.46
Kylee Van Horn
getting curious about experimenting with things rather than being like, well, you know, it’s just, it’s tougher to do it this way. So it’s better. That’s just something else I like to add to people’s thought processes when I’m chatting with them.

19:16.30
Alyssa
I love that. Along, well, kind of going back to the specific diets, and I’ll just pick out um low carb, high fat, and fasted training. I don’t know if you’d exactly call fasted training a diet, but it kind of falls, I would guess, like I would say under patterns of behavior, are two that we get all the time um for mountain athletes.

19:44.05
Alyssa
What are, would you say, like the perceived benefits of these diets?

19:53.35
Kylee Van Horn
Um, as far as facet training goes, is that what you’re saying?

19:58.54
Alyssa
Yeah. Like, yeah. Like what, what do you see when athletes come to you and they say like, Hey, I’ve been doing this. Like what are the hopes for gains from, from hat, from taking that on?

20:08.38
Kylee Van Horn
Oh, like, well, yeah, the biggest thing that I see is like, uh, they think that their fat oxidation rates are going to improve. And so that, that.

20:22.02
Kylee Van Horn
overall can then help them with endurance. That’s like the the biggest like argument for doing that but like the alternative is like I feel like the the messaging of oh well if you didn’t do that actually like maybe you would prevent bone stress injuries or hormonal issues especially with you know the more research that’s coming out I mean we need a lot more but like for female athletes you know it’s like also are we paying attention to those sorts of differences between people. Um, even for my male athletes that are injury prone, like they don’t recognize that like, Oh, this faster training could have actually contributed to my bone stress injuries that I’ve been getting. But I think it’s kind of to your point, like it’s promoted as like, Oh, you can, this is better for you as a, as your toughness. If you don’t

21:21.47
Kylee Van Horn
eat beforehand, or it’s going to help you lose weight if you don’t eat beforehand. and Even when they’ve done comparison studies between people that fast for exercise and those that don’t fast, there’s not a difference in weight loss or body count change. so it’s just yeah I think there’s just a lot of misconception out there, but I do i am hopeful that the message is shifting actually in that in that in the fasting realm of things.

21:49.38
Kylee Van Horn
but

21:51.83
Alyssa
Yeah, I’m hopeful too. I mean that’s, I will say that we had a time period where we did promote that back when there was thought that it could be helpful with fat app fat adaptations. We do not, we’ve gone very much the opposite direction and have really worked on which is another reason we’re kind of really trying to hammer this point home if this is not great. um So I’m appreciative of you two.

22:20.35
Alyssa
also yeah backing that effort. um

22:24.87
Zoe – YDS
The great news is that doing aerobic-based training will make you more effective at fat oxidation, and that one’s for free, folks.

22:25.35
Alyssa
yeah

22:32.42
Zoe – YDS
You can still eat carbs and get more effective at burning fat.

22:36.60
Kylee Van Horn
Well, it’s kind of like the statement we were making at the beginning. Like, is the perceived benefit of someone doing that, is it actually going to make that big a percentage of difference? ah Likely not. ah um for the majority of people that are like asking questions about this. So that’s the other thing to think about too is like, is the risk really worth any potential benefit that this could provide?

23:05.12
Kylee Van Horn
for most people I would say no, and it’s actually going to be a lot riskier for them to not fuel with something. um And then the other thing that I see is just like people are like, well, I can’t do this because my stomach, it bugs my stomach or I don’t have time. And so like having people understand like, what is the purpose of having fuel beforehand and what are some alternative ways to think about this? You know, I just think,

23:31.13
Kylee Van Horn
people hear something, they latch onto it and then they’re like, well, I have to do it this way. And then I also like it, I don’t have time to do it the other way. And so that’s, I feel like part of our goal as a podcast is to help people with that. And then my goal as a sports dietician is to help people figure out how as well after we kind of set the record straight.

23:53.97
Alyssa
Yeah, no, I love that. Keep doing the work that we need in this world. So what are some of the risks that you see, you know, from these diets?

24:10.55
Kylee Van Horn
Do you want me to take it, Zoe?

24:11.99
Zoe – YDS
yeah go for it

24:12.98
Kylee Van Horn
OK. No, I mean, I think and think ah one that is missed out on a lot is like the mental health side of things. um So there’s no but mental and physical downsides to these diets.

24:23.18
Alyssa
good point yeah

24:28.04
Kylee Van Horn
And for a lot of people, again, it becomes their full identity. they, for for many people it becomes a form of control um that they like can’t break out of um and can’t be, it’s very rigid, so they like can’t break out of that and um can lead people down like a path towards an eating disorder or even like a more extreme just like disordered eating.

24:36.74
Zoe – YDS
Yeah, go for it.

24:47.12
Alyssa
Great point, yeah

24:54.37
Kylee Van Horn
um So it has like physical, social, mental health um downsides and then physically like that increased Oftentimes, they’re with a lot of the extremes, we’re missing out on something because they’re like restricting and cutting something out. So like if we’re cutting out a complete food group or like really limiting carbs or something, are we missing out on beneficial fiber for our microbiome? What about our micronutrients? like um all of the like When we’re doing low-carb, it can increase bone resorption factors, which can ah increase your risk for stress fractures. So there’s like all of these

25:33.02
Kylee Van Horn
things that can happen or are missing out or we might be missing out on. And then for many athletes, like they might not realize it until a little ways down the road. Like, you know, some people are like, Oh, I feel great. Like one or two months into this whole thing that they’re doing. But then you ask them six months, 12 months later. And it’s like, Ooh, okay. Maybe I didn’t, maybe I didn’t realize that these are some of the downsides to this and and it’s too late because I got a bone stress injury or something or my thyroid ended up like going to crap or my gut, like I can’t stop pulling over on the side of the trail because I have to go to the bathroom because my gut’s not functioning. So um I would say like for some of these things, it’s just like you don’t even see the full effects until long later down the road.

26:22.99
Alyssa
Love that. Zoe, do you want to add anything onto that? or

26:26.15
Zoe – YDS
Yeah, I think, I mean, the thing that I would emphasize is that a lot of times people choose these diets as a way of like, I like I need a difference, like to form an identity, to form a community, to have that sense of control.

26:42.77
Zoe – YDS
And those are all very normal human desires, but using your diet as like manipulating your diet to achieve that feeling is like you’re, you’re sacrificing so much of your athletic and adventure potential at the altar of feeling a little more in control.

26:58.91
Zoe – YDS
and potentially not attending to a mental health issue that if attended to could lead to performance breakthroughs in a healthier relationship with food and so like the desire to adhere to these workouts are are totally based on like really valid human needs like we love and i know it sounds counterintuitive but people actually love being told What to do like stricter religions end up being more popular and like the more relaxed ones people are counter intuitively really driven to fairly rigid ways of thinking and being because it makes being a person so much easier and I mean for a lot of people training can satisfy a little bit of that need but for other folks diet starts to satisfy that and there are huge downsides to allowing that to be your primary outlet for identity formation and community building.

27:50.33
Alyssa
Yeah, I think that’s hugh like, I love that both of you have really touched on the mantelpiece because I feel like we’re, I feel like it is becoming very apparent that bone stress injuries, you know, there’s a lot of physical um taxing, but it’s the mantelpiece and just missing out on food is such a part of our culture. and It’s so sad not to be able to engage in that.

28:19.49
Zoe – YDS
Totally. And I think that that’s one of the big, like, think like, we always want to push people to sort of widen the lens on how they view health. And like, if you’re so obsessed with eating healthy that you can’t go out to eat with friends, you can’t have a meal with your family or with your kids or with a significant other if you can’t you know, get a meal at the airport without panicking and like having a big emotional reaction. I don’t know if that’s healthy. And so I always want people like Kylee said to think about their social well being, their mental health and well being as well. And we don’t just eat to make our bodies like better athletic bodies.

28:56.76
Zoe – YDS
Food serves multiple amazing purposes and I think that’s what makes all of this so tricky and complicated and juicy. It doesn’t just fuel us up mountains but it’s also what can make us better. Parents and partners and people and sometimes that we can neglect those aspects of how.

29:14.96
Zoe – YDS
to fuel and how to show up more present in our lives to like to the detriment of that part of our lives, because we get so focused on the athletic part when often sort of fueling in a way that balances both sides of that thing in a way that is balanced and does take into account different aspects of health will typically lead to better performance breakthroughs anyway.

29:38.80
Alyssa
Yeah, no, that’s 100% true. It’s, yeah, it’s nice to just be out of like, yes, validating that. Yes. Let’s keep trying our best and yeah, taking those steps. So how do you, how do we help athletes resist these diets? I mean, you two, I feel like are in many ways at the forefront of this by starting the podcast, by being a coach.

30:06.25
Alyssa
writer, um dietician. But yeah, kind of like what are some of these steps that we can get people on a healthier track earlier?

30:16.82
Kylee Van Horn
Listen to the podcast now. but oh

30:19.19
Alyssa
That’s true. Easy.

30:20.60
Kylee Van Horn
so i No, I think i’m in reality though, like being able, the tough part is like being able to recognize when something is a fad, right? Or like an extreme. And so that’s what we’re trying to do with the podcast is help people navigate that world a little bit better, especially when they’re bombarded with things on social media.

30:46.90
Kylee Van Horn
that um you know might sound too good to be true. Like that is an indicator. It’s like when when extreme ah words are used, when I usually say when things are like completely cut out or really restrictive, that’s another like indicator that maybe you know this might be a fad that’s happening right now. Or um you know we do encourage our audience and people to look up um maybe if they’re where the scientific research is behind like posts they might see or like if a pro athlete is talking about something like whether that’s actually a valid thing. But we do recognize that that isn’t what everyone’s going to do. And it can be hard to navigate on your own. So again, that’s kind of why one of the reasons why we are doing the podcast is to help people navigate them navigate the world with them.

31:43.61
Zoe – YDS
And we always really try to avoid being prescriptive. We don’t tell people what to do or how to think. We try to give them frameworks and sets of tools to think more critically for themselves. And to that end, I would say anyone who is potentially telling you how to think and is like trying to discourage critical thinking and who is trying to be overly prescriptive, particularly if they are just some guy on Instagram with abs and that’s like the, you know, be all in all of his accreditation, be skeptical of that.

32:13.57
Kylee Van Horn
thats

32:16.35
Zoe – YDS
And like, I know that sounds ridiculous, but the way our brains work, we are, a lot of us are more likely to believe the guy on Instagram with abs than, you know, the boring scientific paper that has a methodology section that’s 12 pages long.

32:29.94
Zoe – YDS
And I think that just, you know, being aware of how our human brains work, making peace with that, giving ourselves grace and sort of understanding that anytime something seems sticky in the way of like, oh, like that’s so tempting. Like I really want that to be true and paying attention to the things you want to be true because oftentimes those are unfortunately not the things that end up being true.

32:55.74
Alyssa
Yeah, do you, or have you found that the nutrition realm, we’ll stick to like endurance sports for right now, is moving in a hopefully more positive direction or are you finding there’s still a lot of misinformation and just kind of traps basically out there?

33:22.58
Kylee Van Horn
I think we’re always I think we’re the fads are always happening like I think a lot of people are again searching for that identity or that performance advantage and while I want to be hopeful about things, I think it’s natural for people to want to look for that magic s thing or like pill or diet or thing that could get them a potential benefit. And so that’s why I think it is, that’s why we’re equipping people with the ability to kind of be able to research this on their own or make a decision on their own so that they

34:02.09
Kylee Van Horn
hopefully can make one that’s going to not lead them down a dark rabbit hole.

34:08.38
Zoe – YDS
I think, unfortunately, human nature is probably not going to change dramatically in the near future.

34:12.73
Alyssa
Yeah.

34:13.79
Zoe – YDS
And we’re always going to be drawn to the bright, shiny object. We’re always going to be drawn to what is novel and what promises us the thing we want most. And unfortunately, the thing that is changing is technology, particularly in terms of social media and the attention economy because those modalities are really able to sort of hijack and dial up to 11 how our brains work. And they really overemphasize what is novel and what might lack evidence they really overt like the media that are thriving most think like sub stack podcasts.

34:46.63
Zoe – YDS
um like the the newsletter social media space like those are all in of one sample sizes and a lot of the information people are consuming more and more is in of one it’s less like triangulated like stuff from various sources and experts less citation of sources much more like i did a cold plunge and i lost 12 pounds so should you buy my $300 coaching program at the linkin bio

34:59.17
Kylee Van Horn
Thanks so much.

35:10.10
Zoe – YDS
And I think, unfortunately, a lot of these technologies in the attention economy have sort of hijacked our totally normal, healthy human impulses for their own ends. And unfortunately, the attention economy and the types of media that are really thriving right now are somewhat at odds with really good scientific communication, which is slow, kind of boring, isn’t very prescriptive, and leaves you with a lot more questions than answers. And that’s not what people crave. People crave, like, defend it like something that’s definite. They don’t crave nuance. They don’t crave complicated ways of thinking that, you know, take you to more questions than answers. They crave the guy on Instagram with the six pack who, you know, says that cold plunging will cure your depression and make you lose weight and PR your marathon.

35:58.71
Alyssa
Wow, that would truly be magical. I hate cold plungers though, so yeah.

36:01.76
Zoe – YDS
I wish, right? I want that to be true.

36:06.59
Alyssa
I yeah can’t stand them. I’d rather sit in this.

36:08.85
Zoe – YDS
no Nope, nope.

36:09.31
Alyssa
I’d rather be hot all the time, you know.

36:09.90
Zoe – YDS
Yeah.

36:13.44
Alyssa
I am curious because, I mean, it’s actually something that we think about uphill, because in a way, mountain sports have obviously been around for a really long time, but it is such a small demographic of people. Do you think that part of the susceptibility of athletes is perhaps because a lot of it is N of 1?

36:38.63
Alyssa
um like I think we have a lot more information maybe marathon down um for running, but when you start getting into perhaps like the murkier territory of big mountains, of you know longer ultras, we just kind of don’t have as much of um like, hey, this is kind of the gold standard and yeah, there’s, yeah.

36:59.47
Zoe – YDS
Right. Right. Like there’s not a lot of studies like here, like AB b tested all these different ways to train for a 250 mile race. And we did a randomized controlled trial and here’s what came out as being the most beneficial. Like there is not that much science on mountain athletes, on endurance athletes, particularly operating at the extremes. And I think you’re totally spot on that a lot of times that does leave like.

37:24.05
Zoe – YDS
There aren’t, this isn’t one of those cases where it’s like with a lot of nutrition information, like we kind of know what the like science does have some answers and they’re unfortunately very boring and hard to sell, but we are genuinely operating at the extremes of mountain athletics and endurance sports. I think a lot of times those gaps that would typically be filled in like more um like traditional systems like science, like tried and true coaching methodologies, um end up getting filled in sometimes by people that do mean really well with their sort of experience. And a lot of times it gets filled in with grifters who are trying to sell you something and are taking advantage of that knowledge gap.

38:07.35
Zoe – YDS
So I think people have to be equally cognizant of both, whether someone’s well-intentioned or poorly intentioned. Being like the sample size is always, always, always really important to keep your eye critically trained on.

38:19.36
Zoe – YDS
And that doesn’t mean you don’t listen to people, but I think it just means you really have to always take that evidence with a huge grain of salt. And if you’re a scientist listening, hey, we’re here, do science on us.

38:31.87
Zoe – YDS
I would love a little biopsy.

38:31.87
Alyssa
yeah

38:36.63
Alyssa
Yeah, same. I have done some pretty silly things, we’ll say, in my life, and I would totally have done, like, any, pretty much, maybe not any, but a lot of those, like, if they had wanted to do science on me, like, totally would have been done. um Yeah. i I’m also curious because I think we have a tendency to take either the loudest person in the room or ah kind of the most visible and use that experience as like the end of one. um i i was I like am grappling this because I’m a little bit tempted to say like we often use elites as kind of like this guiding

39:31.87
Alyssa
ah Force for the rest of us, but I do feel like elites tend to be very calculated I think goodness is a little bit less in the mountaineering world just because there’s Really not as much information as there is in the running world, but I’m curious how you kind of see that relationship and like how much can someone who’s kind of at the the cutting edge of the sport how much can more of the everyday athlete take from their example from their knowledge and apply it to

39:48.03
Zoe – YDS
Thank you.

40:02.10
Alyssa
ah to their own work. Is that a dangerous path to go down? Or like, yeah, how do you take that?

40:08.47
Zoe – YDS
i I would definitely proceed with caution because just because someone is good at running and is an expert of their own body does not make them an expert of your running and your body.

40:14.74
Alyssa
Yes.

40:20.20
Zoe – YDS
I mean, you know, if so, Elliott Kipchoge would be also the greatest coach of all time in addition to being the greatest runner. experience is not a one to one for expertise in this way.

40:29.60
Kylee Van Horn
Thank

40:31.85
Zoe – YDS
And I think also when we look at elites like this is a self so like that might in fact be a very poor sample size to look at because how one to one is that like I you know I do not

40:34.24
Kylee Van Horn
you.

40:45.04
Zoe – YDS
i like the lifestyle of a professional athlete where I can just train then convalesce all day and drink my recovery smoothie while I’m attended to by you know various masseurs and you know whatever I imagine professional runners do.

41:00.24
Zoe – YDS
And I think that a lot of times we have to always like to filter that information through the prism of like what additional resources does this person have? Did they also win the genetic lottery? um Does this person have kids? Do they have unlimited grocery resources? like What other factors might explain the efficacy of whatever given intervention you’re thinking of? Because just being elite, like it’s not just a like, OK, this fast person said that they drank tart cherry juice, and that’s what got them a marathon PR.

41:30.36
Zoe – YDS
there’s a lot of variables there that you have no idea about. So I think being really ah skeptical and just being cognizant that it doesn’t mean don’t do it, but it means like, be really aware that you are not a direct one to one. And that’s not because of ability. It’s a lot of times because of resources and genetics and a lot of other things that are outside of your control. And I actually think that sometimes knowing how many things in training aren’t in our control, sometimes causes people to overly fixate on these little interventions that sort of reinforce a small sense of control. Like, well, you know, I have like two kids at home and I’m, you know, I work every weekend and all of that feels pretty out of my control, but I can go buy this ketone supplement. And that makes me feel like I’m re-like putting myself back in the driver’s seat of my training in this small way that I can’t always do because of my specific life circumstances.

42:26.74
Kylee Van Horn
I mean, I also would add, like, I think it, I’m glad that you said, Zoe, like, yes, maybe you would like try some of these things yourself, but also, you know, what, um, I would ask people like for, I’m always asking people first, like, do you have the basic style in, and then like, is this something like,

42:49.39
Kylee Van Horn
that is going to, yes, like work into your lifestyle. Is this something that could interact with your medication? Is this something that like everyone has different um ah physiology and also like different potential health issues, et cetera. And so I think just like looking at a ketone supplement and being like, Oh yeah, I’m going to just go take that um because so-and-so takes it. I just, yeah that’s not,

43:18.90
Kylee Van Horn
taking into account your own personal circumstances as well. But I’m not discouraging people from not getting curious about things either. so

43:29.90
Alyssa
Yeah. And I think that the really interesting thing too, as you’re growing as an athlete, you know, learning is like what worked.

43:39.94
Alyssa
I feel like that’s where people get stuck a lot if they’re like, Oh, I took that key to a key one time and it made me feel great. It’s like, well, actually you probably just got a good night of sleep and ate enough and drank enough water, but then they’re stuck.

43:53.44
Alyssa
I’m like, Oh yeah, now I always have to take it. It’s like, there’s a lot of factors.

43:56.95
Kylee Van Horn
but

43:58.12
Zoe – YDS
Exactly. And it’s so hard to set, like, that’s one of the reasons that there isn’t a ton of science. Here’s because getting quality data would be really hard. Like, how do you do a randomized control trial on a lot of these interventions? And I think that that, like, should just give us all an additional prod to approach with humility and ah and a bit of skepticism.

44:23.43
Alyssa
Yeah, no, absolutely. um Well, yeah, anything else you two would like to touch on? um Again, thank you so much. I feel like I just got to ask questions of like, hoping for these wonderful answers and I got all of it. So psyched to have both of you on. But yeah, anything else you’d like to touch on?

44:46.08
Zoe – YDS
Mostly just that, you know, I also like that I’m an athlete myself and I strongly identify with that desire to try to play at the margins and to try to take advantage of anything that I can. But just like you said, more often than not, it just comes back to making sure you have the fundamentals dialed. And whatever I do find in myself when i like that I want to make a change or I want to try an intervention, I want to buy some bright new shiny object or try some new way of eating or being I always want to ask myself is this meeting more of an emotional need than a physical need and what is like the what ah what am I actually trying to do with this and is it trying to meet a need of like not feeling like I’m enough not feeling like I’m in control

45:29.11
Zoe – YDS
and oftentimes the answer to that question can give me an additional lens to sort of look at whatever intervention I’m thinking of through that can be helpful and make me make a more rational decision and on our podcast we do a lot of science and a lot of research and we also always try to bring in like the historical and emotional context because I know we all like to think that we’re purely rational beings and we make all of our decisions based on the best emerging science and whatever our spreadsheet tells us to do and whatever our coach and training plan and training peak says. But more often than not, we’re actually making a lot of these decisions from a surprisingly emotional place. And I don’t think that’s always bad insofar that we’re aware of it and we’re harnessing it and it’s not harnessing us.

46:15.66
Kylee Van Horn
Oh, I love that.

46:15.88
Alyssa
Love it.

46:17.30
Kylee Van Horn
That was great. Sorry. I would say additionally, um who likes asking people who they’re getting their advice from. Because you know if you ask yourself that question first, and then asking yourself, like what potential motives does this person have? Like the point about Zoe saying that like, is this like an elite athlete that has a different circumstance than you? Um, and looking towards more expert type people in the field versus like an Instagram influencer. So being able to discern like, where am I getting this message from?

47:01.70
Kylee Van Horn
Should I explore this further? If so, can I also explore it further from an expert’s perspective if it’s not coming from an expert? That would be another just like a little tip.

47:14.38
Alyssa
Oh, that’s great. So where can people find the podcast? Where can they get in touch with you? um Yeah, I would love to hear.

47:22.02
Zoe – YDS
wherever you’re listening to this podcast, you will find us also, unless this is on YouTube, in which case we are audio only, thank God.

47:24.92
Alyssa
Perfect.

47:30.85
Zoe – YDS
But we’re also on Instagram at your diet sucks pod.

47:36.58
Alyssa
Awesome. Yeah, we are trying to move in the direction of YouTube. So we’ll see.

47:41.56
Zoe – YDS
Someday, yeah.

47:41.65
Alyssa
It scares me. Yeah. Yeah. We’ll get it there one day. Awesome. Well, thank you both so much for being on and thank you for listening to the Uphill Athlete podcast.

47:53.81
Alyssa
ah It’s not just one, but a community. We are Uphill Athletes.