Listen to this Episode:
The Uphill Athlete podcast returns with host Alyssa Clark and coach Alexa Hasman. They discuss reframing failure as a learning opportunity rather than a negative outcome. They emphasize the value of compassion and growth through their shared personal experiences with DNFs, highlighting factors like internal pressure, safety concerns, and lack of enjoyment. They stress the importance of understanding personal motivators, such as joy and social connection, and how these impact performance.
Ultimately, “failure” and DNFs can lead to resilience. Setbacks are part of the journey to achieving bigger goals.
00:00:01.74
Alyssa
Hi everyone, welcome to the Uphill Athlete podcast. My name is Alyssa Clark and I will be your host today. I am joined by coach Alexa Hasman, who we love and have heard from before, but she is our mental training specialist on the Uphill Athlete team. And she is here to talk to us about a topic that I think is going to resonate with a lot of people, especially as We are headed somewhat towards the end of the trail running season, although I feel like at this point there’s not really an end. And also as we are headed into training for mountaineering seasons, for alpinism, for ice climbing, I think it’s a pretty relevant topic across the board. But Alexa, do you want to share what we are going to be talking about today?
00:00:58.27
Alexa
Yeah, sure. Well, thanks so much for having me. And today we’re going to be talking about failure, or reframing failure maybe might be better. So this is so relevant for so many aspects of life.
00:01:09.97
Alyssa
Yeah, well, I did title this podcast jokingly as in ah all caps, we failed. Yay. What do we do now? I think it’s pretty.
00:01:27.94
Alyssa
Yes, it’s super relevant, and I think both of us are coming into this podcast with kind of an interesting race.
00:01:39.00
Alyssa
uh, experience, we’ll say this year, uh, we both had some pretty incredible experiences and on paper results. And also some, I think for both of us have felt very deeply disappointed in other areas. And I think what is universal is you can have a lot of experience. I mean, both of us have been running, uh, competing in various avenues for years and years and years.
00:02:10.77
Alyssa
And that disappointment is pretty palpable and pretty ah upsetting even when you know all of the things to say to yourself when yeah, it ends up that way.
00:02:24.52
Alyssa
um So I think we’re both maybe in a position to talk about it.
00:02:25.42
Alexa
Yeah, absolutely.
00:02:27.53
Alyssa
Yeah. So yeah,
00:02:29.71
Alexa
Yes, we’re the experts on failure.
00:02:33.29
Alyssa
I kind of like that. I’m okay with that.
00:02:36.87
Alexa
hey
00:02:39.11
Alyssa
So let’s start off with just thinking about, and I would love to hear because you do have such a strong background in mental training. What do you think of when you hear the word failure?
00:02:54.98
Alexa
Oh man, failure encompasses so much. So it’s hard to pin down, but essentially I feel like it’s that feeling of not completing something and oftentimes not completing it to your expectations or your standards. ah So that’s what I generally think of when I think of failure. What about you? What do you think of when you think about failure?
00:03:18.53
Alyssa
I think, yes, that I also think about the social aspect of it, where there is this embarrassment of, I now have to show up, I have to tell other people or they know that I didn’t do the thing I said I was going to do.
00:03:36.80
Alyssa
And that is there’s this embarrassment, I think that’s attached to failure as well.
00:03:38.37
Alexa
floor
00:03:44.00
Alexa
Oh, absolutely. Especially in the world of social media. I mean, I think we’re all guilty of things like when we’re running a race or doing some adventure thinking about Okay. How am I going to explain this on Instagram? You know, when I don’t finish or when I don’t meet my goal or, you know, how, what am I going to title my Strava for this?
00:04:05.32
Alexa
so
00:04:07.78
Alyssa
Oh, that is honestly, I can’t tell you. I almost think that’s the way to tell if a race or something is not going well is when you’re writing your Instagram post while you’re still in it.
00:04:21.29
Alyssa
You’re like, I shouldn’t be, you’re so far removed from where you should be. I think that’s a pretty good indication that things maybe aren’t going the way we thought or hoped.
00:04:30.02
Alexa
Yes.
00:04:35.79
Alexa
Yep, absolutely.
00:04:36.62
Alyssa
And I think
00:04:37.42
Alexa
You’re thinking about like, all right, how can you explain this?
00:04:41.14
Alyssa
Yeah. And I think if we’re all being perfectly honest, we’ve all written our Instagram posts, uh, during some kind of event.
00:04:51.94
Alexa
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:04:55.37
Alyssa
So I guess to get into that a little bit, why do you feel that there, that we do that? Like, why are we so programmed of like,
00:05:08.30
Alyssa
having to write that inta gross having your Instagram post, having to title that Strava. Where do you think that comes from?
00:05:16.12
Alexa
Yeah, that’s a good question. I think we require a law of external validation. And so a lot of the reason why a lot of us do this is for not only our personal achievement, but having external or social validation. And so Having, like you touched on the embarrassment part, having to write that Instagram post, there’s a level of embarrassment that comes with your feelings about how you performed, right? And it’s not, it’s usually not how everybody else reads it. It’s not how everybody else thinks about what you accomplished or weren’t able to accomplish. But to us, that external validation part is really important and it’s really something that we strive for.
00:06:06.23
Alyssa
Absolutely. I think one of the most interesting interesting things that Steve, our chief CEO, Steve House, has said is that he actually thinks that they’re that trail running, he’s like, oh, I would never brought like race trail running because he said, when I used to go to the mountains, and I think it is a little bit different now,
00:06:35.73
Alyssa
Maybe less so, but when he would go and do an expedition, he could come back and tell no one that he’d done it. I mean, maybe his sponsors, etc. So if he failed, there was not this blaring kind of social discussion on it. but Whereas he said, when you guys race, it is so upfront like how you are doing and when you are failing. He’s like, I could not withstand the social stress and potential embarrassment that you all do by being so visible.
00:07:11.56
Alyssa
in what you’re doing. And that to me was insane. Like his fear of that social consequence, compared to the fear of climbing some insane mountain at, you know, 78,000 meters is wild and shows I think just how strong our fear of um like social being outcast is.
00:07:37.48
Alexa
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And having anybody think negatively of you or or to let people down. That’s always one of my biggest fears with the failure aspect is I don’t want to let everybody else down.
00:07:48.90
Alyssa
Yeah.
00:07:53.13
Alexa
In reality, nobody else’s expectations are anything compared to what I have for myself, nor is anybody’s life or feelings tied up in what I’m accomplishing. So it’s really quite silly when you think about it because like, why would I be letting anybody down by not finishing a race or not finishing it to my expectations? Because it really has no impact on anybody else. So yeah.
00:08:22.48
Alyssa
it doesn’t and every everyone already thinks we’re crazy of doing like hundred and two hundred mile races so they’re probably like cool you thought of something better to do with your time and stopped or yeah
00:08:36.69
Alexa
so
00:08:39.42
Alyssa
like maybe you took a nap
00:08:43.28
Alyssa
So yes, but it is oh, yeah, I feel that so deeply and we can get into it later. But ah yeah, expectations were certainly a big part of how deeply I felt some of my i
00:09:00.50
Alyssa
fail or like failure by DNFs earlier this year.
00:09:01.75
Alexa
I think so actually.
00:09:06.04
Alyssa
So let’s get into what that actually looked like. ah So what were your plans for racing this year? And also, did you feel like there was extra pressure for the races that you choose?
00:09:19.50
Alyssa
And why was that the case?
00:09:25.09
Alexa
Yeah, that’s a good question. So, uh, this past year I had two main races that I was aiming for, one of which being Coca-Dona 250 and the other one being Tour de Jantes.
00:09:36.16
Alexa
Um, so my expectations were, I really wanted to focus on Coca-Dona and then I knew that tour was going to be really hard.
00:09:49.23
Alexa
Obviously it was a very, very hard race.
00:09:49.81
Alyssa
Also one, one pause.
00:09:51.48
Alexa
Um, so yeah.
00:09:54.27
Alyssa
I know that we have talked about these races before, do you? But do you want to quickly tell our audience why those two are like what the distance kind of elevation game, like what?
00:10:04.16
Alexa
Oh, yeah.
00:10:05.60
Alyssa
Yeah. Like a little bit about both of them.
00:10:08.29
Alexa
You know Absolutely. So, Cocodona 250 is 250 miles through Arizona, Phoenix to Flagstaff, and Uh, it’s, it’s an adventure for sure.
00:10:22.22
Alexa
And then Tour de Jantes is about 209 miles in the Italian Alps, about 90,000 feet of gain. Um, so, let’s say I’m making a face because it’s like, it’s hard to know the distance.
00:10:34.65
Alyssa
It’s way longer than 209, it’s like 230, yeah.
00:10:39.77
Alexa
Yeah.
00:10:39.86
Alyssa
and What’s the elevation of morphs?
00:10:40.25
Alexa
It’s like the distance in the elevation. Coco.
00:10:46.45
Alyssa
Yeah, what’s the elevation of Coco?
00:10:50.66
Alexa
Um, I think it was like 32?
00:10:50.95
Alyssa
I think it’s like, what?
00:10:55.63
Alyssa
Huh, okay.
00:10:55.81
Alexa
32,000, I think?
00:10:56.80
Alyssa
I think to add, both of them are, have altitude, like altitude is a factor.
00:11:07.82
Alexa
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:11:09.53
Alyssa
Both of them hit 10,000 feet.
00:11:16.71
Alexa
Yep, they do. Obviously very different terrain.
00:11:22.48
Alyssa
very different.
00:11:25.69
Alyssa
but very hard in their own ways. like to yeah
00:11:28.71
Alexa
Yes, very hard.
00:11:30.33
Alyssa
so okay we’ve set the basis to very difficult races, and then you were saying your focus was more Cocodona.
00:11:42.47
Alexa
who
00:11:42.62
Alyssa
Go for it.
00:11:43.81
Alexa
My focus was more cocadona and then I wanted to go into tour and just experience it. And I knew that there was a good possibility I wouldn’t finish. I mean the finish rate at Tor alone is relatively small. So I knew that there was some level of expectation of not finishing. That being said, I went into it obviously not wanting to DNF. I wanted to finish. That was the ultimate goal. um So and what initially happened or what ended up happening is Cocodona was, you know, ah I finished. Do I have some regrets in some places? Sure. Do I want to go back and try again? Absolutely. um But Tor, I ended up DNFing. And so that was
00:12:38.05
Alexa
Yeah, definitely didn’t meet my expectations for what I had hoped to do there. And that’s sort of where this failure part comes in. How do we deal with making those decisions and how do we deal with the consequences of those decisions?
00:12:56.23
Alyssa
And did you feel that these two races had a different sense of pressure than perhaps previous years of racing or other races that you’ve done?
00:13:12.16
Alexa
Yeah, yes and no. I feel like I always have a level of ah pressure. I think as a coach, we always want to feel like, well, I want to show my athletes that I can do this, right? Even though just getting there, as we tell our athletes, is the goal. ah So a DNF shouldn’t impact our clients to distrust us or anything like that. But there’s still that pressure as a coach.
00:13:42.21
Alexa
Um, I think the biggest pressure that came from this year was that the tour was an international race. So there’s a lot of cost and time away from family and I have two small kids. So I knew that I was going to have to, well, one train a ton and be away from them on that aspect, but then also go to Italy and be away from them for a while there. Uh, and then the cost aspect. So there’s a lot of pressure when it comes to that too.
00:14:11.95
Alyssa
Yeah. No, that makes sense. And that also was my 40th birthday. Right. Wasn’t yeah.
00:14:19.58
Alexa
Yeah, that’s what I kept saying. That’s how I was framing it.
00:14:24.91
Alyssa
Okay. Gotcha.
00:14:25.98
Alexa
that
00:14:26.38
Alyssa
Cause I do remember that you were like, Oh, I want to go big for my 40th, 40th birthday.
00:14:26.85
Alexa
yeah course
00:14:30.70
Alyssa
So you picked two big iconic 200 milers.
00:14:37.38
Alexa
Yeah, and I also didn’t think I was for sure gonna get into the tour.
00:14:37.36
Alyssa
Yeah.
00:14:41.30
Alexa
And I just happened to get in and I was like, oh, shoot.
00:14:46.82
Alexa
You know, whenever you get into those races, it’s sort of like a moment of like, okay, now we got to do this.
00:14:54.20
Alyssa
Oh, when I, I distinctly remember getting the email that I’d gotten into Tor and I was like, what did I just do? No.
00:15:06.74
Alexa
Yeah.
00:15:07.83
Alyssa
I was, I was banking on them telling me that I wasn’t going to do it. But when you’re, yeah, when you, if you’re American, I think the chances are pretty high.
00:15:16.86
Alexa
Exactly. me
00:15:21.78
Alyssa
that you get into a tor.
00:15:22.34
Alexa
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:23.49
Alyssa
If you’re a European, especially Italian, Spanish, or French, it’s a lot harder to get in because they have country quotas, but the US is definitely easier than the Euros.
00:15:25.62
Alexa
Yeah.
00:15:39.29
Alexa
So keep that in mind if you’re applying for Tor.
00:15:44.70
Alyssa
Here’s our piece of wisdom for today. um Well, I can just say from a racing perspective for me, I was It was my first year racing i on,
00:16:07.01
Alyssa
I joined a new team, um racing for a new company, a quote unquote more professional level than I had been previously. And so I wanted it to go big.
00:16:25.02
Alyssa
race as competitive races as I could. And I decided to do Madeira and UTMB were kind of the two main ones that I was going to focus on.
00:16:37.83
Alyssa
And so I took this really, we’re going to call it a hard man’s perspective of like, I have to be the most disciplined, the toughest, the hardest on myself.
00:16:49.79
Alyssa
I’m going to cut everything external out. I’m going to be honest, run without a lot of joy, just discipline. And I had, uh,
00:17:00.59
Alexa
Really.
00:17:02.39
Alyssa
Yeah, yeah, it already sounds really miserable. Um, I had kind of someone else feeding into that narrative. And I was also being told that if I didn’t accomplish these things, essentially, I wasn’t good enough. If I wasn’t ultra runner of the year, like on the top 10 list, etc., that Um, I had failed and gosh, that’s a really good way to put a lot of pressure on yourself.
00:17:34.23
Alyssa
So we went to Madeira and yeah, we learned though, we learned, uh, went to Madeira DNF to like 25 miles in, it was like super early.
00:17:34.97
Alexa
Yeah, no kidding.
00:17:46.92
Alyssa
Um, I didn’t even get to see any of the course in the daylight, which was a real bummer. And then I will get into it a little bit more, but I definitely felt an enormous amount of pressure going into that race.
00:18:00.86
Alyssa
like a silly amount of pressure that I had to prove myself on the world stage otherwise I was a joke and then um I actually haven’t even mentioned this race to a lot of people I decided to honestly a lot of it was the ego of trying to get
00:18:02.45
Alexa
Yeah.
00:18:22.62
Alyssa
ITRA points, and possibly UTMB points. I decided to race a race in Quebec, which is an amazing race. Wish I’d done it for a bajillion other reasons. And DNF’d, gosh, again, 18, 20 miles in. I was just really unhappy.
00:18:46.01
Alyssa
That was internal pressure of feeling. So I signed up for Quebec literally the day after Madeira and I knew it was a bad idea.
00:18:59.20
Alyssa
I just felt like I needed to prove myself. And that’s a surefire way to make running really not fun.
00:19:05.10
Alexa
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:07.40
Alyssa
Yeah. um But we’ll get we’ll get into those a little bit more. So what went sideways and why do you think this happened?
00:19:18.86
Alexa
Oh my gosh, so many reasons. I think, well, one, I was in the second wave It was raining a lot at the start. And so by the time the second wave got onto the course, it was like literally a mudslide. It was wild, right? um I couldn’t stay upright at all. I think that also, I didn’t have the proper traction on my shoes. I think that was a big factor of that too. um But yeah, it was cold and I couldn’t stay upright. I kept falling and that just continued.
00:19:57.61
Alexa
for basically as long as I was in the race. I was just falling and falling and falling. And I was getting to the point where I couldn’t get warm because I couldn’t move fast enough. I kept landing in like giant puddles. I was freezing.
00:20:12.16
Alexa
You know, my hand warmers were so through. I had on all, like I came into it with like, all right, I know it’s going to be cold at night. So I had the warmest gear. I got this amazing jacket. I love, I had my waterproof jacket on. I had my waterproof pants on over everything. And I still was so darn cold.
00:20:29.97
Alexa
I was falling so much to the point where like I was like I’m gonna end up like really hurting myself and having to be helicoptered out of here because I was falling backwards on like rocks and I was like I’m gonna hit my head I’m gonna break an ankle and really I felt unsafe and I was miserable and I think that that’s a big aspect of it too is Um, I think we don’t talk about this as much because it’s not quote unquote a good enough reason, but like, I just wasn’t having fun at all.
00:21:03.25
Alyssa
Hmm.
00:21:06.67
Alexa
Like at all. I think I, and because of this, I learned a lot about what I like and what I don’t like in races. And one of the aspects I realized why I do them is for the social aspect.
00:21:19.24
Alexa
And at Tor, nobody talks. There’s so many different languages out there. So nobody’s talking. You’re not making friends like you are in like the US races, et cetera. And I hated that. I hated it. I wanted somebody to turn to during these climbs and be like, this sucks. And there was no way to do that. Um, the aid stations were the same. Like I just wasn’t, it just wasn’t enjoyable at all. And I felt unsafe.
00:21:47.46
Alexa
So in the end, yeah, decided to call it in. And yeah.
00:21:55.19
Alyssa
Yeah, I mean I think that’s a really good thing to realize.
00:22:00.50
Alyssa
It is funny because I’ve actually made really good friends in tour, but that also, I think, tends to happen late a little bit later in the race where people start to be like, hey, I just want to hang out.
00:22:10.79
Alyssa
And so no matter kind of the language barrier, you start talking. And I think it sounds like ah probably everyone was just miserable. That start of that race just looked insane.
00:22:22.99
Alyssa
It’s so wet and muddy and just cold.
00:22:24.43
Alexa
Yeah, it was
00:22:25.96
Alyssa
Yeah, looked really rough. To be honest, and I want to emphasize the point that you made, that being miserable and just like not enjoying it, is ah that’s a very valid reason for not continuing.
00:22:48.27
Alyssa
Like to be honest, that happened to me at Madeira. Yeah, Madeira and Quebec were both because, a lot of it, because I was just plain not having a good time. Madeira, it was pouring rain. I didn’t have a crew. I didn’t have a crew at Madeira, Quebec.
00:23:06.56
Alyssa
I race my best when I have a crew or a sport team. That matters to me. Having a social aspect for you matters.
00:23:16.54
Alexa
Yeah.
00:23:19.46
Alyssa
Madeira, it was pouring rain. I was freezing. I had no spare layers. My drop bag wasn’t until like 55 or 60 kilometers in and I was hypothermic. I had slipped and fallen and wrenched my back so I couldn’t move fast enough to keep myself warm. And I know I actually have a strong fear of being cold. Like that is really something that instills a lot of fear in me.
00:23:49.13
Alyssa
and not having any way to get out of it. And I didn’t have a way to get out of it, continuing on with the race. I’d used all my layers. I was soaking wet. And I was just miserable. Like it wasn’t having a good time. And Quebec, my back I had had this heinous day of travel. It was way longer than I expected. Two days of travel. My back was super locked up. I was by myself. I was going to visit my family afterwards. And I really just wanted to visit my family. I didn’t really want to be doing the race. And so I was like, why am I out here? I’m not having fun. There’s no one who cares that I’m out here. Like, this just sucks. And it’s not because of the race. The race is great. Both races are amazing.
00:24:42.04
Alyssa
But I was out there for the wrong reasons, honestly, for both of them. And I didn’t have any I felt like backup to kind of like keep like I really love looking forward to seeing someone in a aid station I know someone, whether it’s a volunteer or Anything like that, who is just like waiting in a sight to see me, I’m like, cool, I’ll get there.
00:25:09.22
Alyssa
But when there is no one, when I am just a face going through an aid station, it makes me really sad. That’s just, I’ve just learned that about myself. I love having someone who’s like waiting for me.
00:25:17.75
Alexa
yeah
00:25:20.34
Alyssa
Like it’s cool, good job.
00:25:22.54
Alexa
Yeah.
00:25:22.84
Alyssa
um Which is something I learned about myself too. I also learned that I run the best with joy. with gratitude, not with having to prove myself or my self worth.
00:25:31.59
Alexa
Yeah.
00:25:36.56
Alyssa
So yeah, yeah, those were kind of pretty similar.
00:25:39.51
Alexa
I think those are good reasons.
00:25:42.44
Alyssa
Yeah, and I think Yeah, I hope so too.
00:25:43.19
Alexa
Yeah, yeah, pretty similar. And I think they’re definitely not unique. I think that there’s hopefully a lot of people that resonate with those reasons.
00:25:55.31
Alyssa
And I hope that it gives some maybe even relief of like, it’s okay not to have just broken your leg.
00:26:08.40
Alyssa
And that’d be the reason why you stopped. Like you can, you can be having a miserable time.
00:26:12.99
Alexa
Yeah.
00:26:15.57
Alyssa
You can be worried about maybe what hasn’t happened yet, but could happen. You can, um, Just say this isn’t my day.
00:26:28.55
Alyssa
This just isn’t the time to push myself into that deep of a hole and have to recover and come out of that. And those are all good reasons.
00:26:39.41
Alyssa
It doesn’t have to just be, my arm is dangling backwards because I, you know, rip my shoulder or I’m puking everywhere or I fell off a cliff like, doesn’t have to be that extreme.
00:26:46.71
Alexa
have
00:26:54.59
Alexa
Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. and there used to be this mentality of death before DNF. And that’s so ah gross, honestly. I don’t hate that saying because one, why put yourself in such danger, right? And also, we’re doing this, this isn’t our, like well, yes, it’s your job, but like for a lot of us that are doing this, like we’re not doing this for any other reason, except for that we enjoy it.
00:27:28.98
Alexa
It’s what we love to do. And so why be out there if we’re not having fun, if we’re not enjoying it, right? That’s the time to say, okay, well, I learned a lot from this race.
00:27:40.21
Alexa
Now I know, hey, I like to talk the whole time I’m running, um you know, stuff like that. Even though I’ve had coaches in the past be like,
00:27:47.55
Alyssa
can confirm.
00:27:49.97
Alexa
ye be like, stop talking so much during racism. But honestly, like, that’s one of the reasons why I like to be out there. I like meeting people and connecting. And I’ve made some of my closest friends from like, just talking to them at races. And that’s, you know, a good enough reason for me to say, Hey, this isn’t, this is not fun. And I can’t imagine being out here another five days, being completely silent and freezing and being miserable.
00:28:22.88
Alyssa
Yeah, I mean, mine was only gonna be like less than a day for sure. And I didn’t want to do it. So I don’t blame you at all.
00:28:33.73
Alexa
Yeah. And that being said, I think that we’re all going to be miserable at some point, right?
00:28:36.04
Alyssa
So let’s
00:28:41.10
Alexa
We’re all going to be, um we’re all going to hit that point where we think about who I’m, I’m not having a good time. And no, I’m not saying that’s necessarily always a reason to drop out because then we would drop out of every race, right? And we can, Coca-dona there certainly, I mean, when I was there with me, there were certainly some moments where I was pretty miserable, um, but didn’t have the desire to drop out and it wasn’t, I didn’t feel unsafe enough to drop out. So not saying that we expect you to have joy and fun the entire time you’re out there doing your
00:29:15.23
Alexa
excursion to your races because that’s unrealistic as well.
00:29:21.37
Alyssa
totally i mean Yeah, and I think that that’s the piece that is a little bit different and I feel like as a crew or even as like internally you can feel that you wanted to finish Kokodona more than anything. I mean like I would have had to drag you off that course for you not to finish Kokodona.
00:29:50.30
Alyssa
And things went sideways. They always do. That’s just it.
00:29:54.96
Alexa
Oh, yeah.
00:29:55.50
Alyssa
But your internal fire to finish was so strong and like, that’s gonna get you through. But I think that when you have done this for a while, you can feel the difference.
00:30:11.21
Alexa
Yeah, you can.
00:30:11.32
Alyssa
Because no, like even, yeah, even when it’s tough, it’s still, you’re like, yeah, but I’m going to do it anyway. Like that is strong versus like, oh, it’s tough.
00:30:22.22
Alexa
Yes.
00:30:22.87
Alyssa
And man, all I want to do is not be here right now.
00:30:28.46
Alexa
Yeah, completely. And what I noticed from that is that I have one of my friends that cruise almost all my races and she was on tour with me. And when I came in and I said, I want to drop.
00:30:43.80
Alexa
She knew that I meant it, right? And she was like, I’ve never seen you so sure about anything before, like about dropping.
00:30:47.94
Alyssa
Hmm.
00:30:52.38
Alexa
Because like, sure, I’ve been like, well, should I drop this? I came in like, I’m done. Like I’m miserable and I’m done. And so we were like, I’ve never seen you so sure about making that call.
00:31:08.23
Alyssa
Yeah, because we talked too. And I felt like you.
00:31:12.57
Alexa
Yes, I called you right before I went.
00:31:15.87
Alyssa
Yeah. And I felt that as well, that this just was not, I mean, and I was like, we had conversations at Cocodonta about like, and that was more of a safety thing of like, Hey, you can’t breathe.
00:31:29.31
Alexa
Mm-hmm.
00:31:30.65
Alyssa
Maybe we should think about this.
00:31:33.43
Alexa
I was like, I don’t care.
00:31:33.73
Alyssa
And you were like, yeah, exactly. Versus Tor, I could tell you just, it just was not the experience that was filling you.
00:31:48.56
Alyssa
Because both of us have run in rainy, cold conditions and gotten through it and been okay with it. But there it’s just like there was something about those situations.
00:31:59.04
Alexa
Yes.
00:32:04.44
Alyssa
And that’s kind of what I wanted to get into is, do you think there was either physiological or psychological differences that you noticed that might’ve contributed to that, we’ll say, tour as like, yeah, I’m just, I mean, we’ve kind of talked about the psychological, but maybe physiological.
00:32:32.44
Alexa
Yeah, and the thing that was almost frustrating about the physiological aspect was that I was in much better shape for Tor. I went into cocodona coming off of a pretty major surgery and not a ton of training time. And so I don’t feel like I was necessarily in the best position to be doing 250 miles. um But going into Tor, my training cycle went really well and I trained really hard.
00:32:59.56
Alexa
So that was almost more of a frustrating part because I was like, well, I’m so ready for this. And then it just didn’t, it just didn’t land. And I think that that happens a lot too, right? It’s like also,
00:33:13.08
Alexa
almost this pressure of like being able to use our fitness and being ah able to execute, there’s a lot of pressure in that too. I mean, you put in so much time to train and so much energy. and And that’s what I looked back on as I was making that decision to TNF at Tor was like, oh my gosh, I’ve climbed all these big things. I’ve ran all these miles. How come I can’t execute here? Right?
00:33:38.80
Alexa
Physiologically, not as much. I think it was just, yeah, primarily psychological and like safety, obviously.
00:33:49.69
Alyssa
Totally. And I think that sometimes that’s, uh, like sometimes that’s harder is when you are like, everything has got, or like and the majority of the things have gone right in this buildup.
00:34:01.40
Alexa
Yeah.
00:34:05.80
Alyssa
I’m super fit. I should do so really, really well at this race. I think oftentimes that actually can be when things go topsy turvy.
00:34:18.54
Alyssa
is when it feels like everything is just where it is versus when maybe things have gone. like before UTMB, I got wacked by neuro virus.
00:34:32.38
Alyssa
I had like a couple of things that if you looked at my lead-up You’d be like, oh there’s some there’s kind of some holes there like she got really sick for almost a week in Chamonix and rate in kind of like prime training time and a couple of other factors you’d be like, oh that wasn’t like the most ideal buildup and I think sometimes when you have this like
00:34:47.12
Alexa
Yeah, you did.
00:34:57.80
Alyssa
picture perfect build-up, that’s actually when things can go less well because you’re like, well, I should feel this way. I should be ready. It’s like, well, that extra pressure can often lead to things um not going as well, which is really annoying.
00:35:17.60
Alexa
Yeah, it is. I know with, I mean, looking back at the shake bison and cocadona, I’m like, I’m like, how did I get through that? um But, you know, I think I just had the will of ah some desert animal out there of a javelina to get through that, so.
00:35:33.58
Alyssa
A javelina. I think it was a javelina.
00:35:39.09
Alexa
Yeah, definitely. Still bummed I didn’t see any of those during the race.
00:35:43.94
Alyssa
I know. I think I only saw one during a fun trainee run. I think that was the only time we got to see one.
00:35:50.97
Alexa
yeah
00:35:52.70
Alyssa
They’re very fun. Big fan.
00:35:55.91
Alexa
Yeah.
00:35:56.92
Alyssa
like like cute little not wild boars because they’re not as scary as those so they’re just like bopping around anyway look up javelina they’re quite fun sorry you didn’t get to see one either so let’s flip this uh yes I hope so too let’s flip this a little bit.
00:36:14.54
Alexa
Well, hopefully next time I do cocadona I’ll see one.
00:36:26.57
Alyssa
Okay, both of us have examples of a race that I know, Cocadona wasn’t like exactly what you wanted to be. But I think from a mental standpoint, that was a were really strong race because of everything you’d been through. And you just are like, I’m going to do this. What do you think was a difference or a few differences that went well in Cocadona? Like now we can kind of been focusing on the negative of what went badly, but like what went well that you feel like Oh, yeah, that was a contributing factor.
00:36:57.46
Alexa
Yeah, I think well having you know a crew that I like to be around was obviously beneficial, knowing that my main goal was to go out there and have fun and finish. But other than that, I didn’t you know I didn’t put a ton of pressure on myself.
00:37:24.48
Alexa
actually, that’s not test. That’s not necessarily true. I think I did. You know, in hindsight, we look back, we’re like, Oh, I was so chill.
00:37:29.10
Alyssa
Yeah, you did.
00:37:33.17
Alexa
No, I wasn’t. I think, what was it? I don’t know. I just, I think it was being around other runners and around my crew was a really motivating factor for me, seeing people out there suffering the same way I was and connecting with them about it. um Also knowing that like my family and friends were tracking me, because the tracking on Cocodona is really, they do a really good job with it. And so I was getting texts from, you know, like my brother being like, are you okay? You’re doing great. Next up, you’ve got Jerome.
00:38:11.53
Alexa
you know, little texts like that I know helped me keep going, right? When I was like, oh, shoot, I sort of feel like I need a drop. I would know that my kids were sitting there refreshing the tracker. I told them, like, I felt like I could feel them, like, hitting that refresh button, being like, where’s mom? Where’s mom? Where’s mom? And I couldn’t let them down. I really wanted to show them that mom could do it.
00:38:42.29
Alexa
And I knew that they were worried about me. So seeing my tracker move was important. So I had to keep going.
00:38:53.22
Alyssa
There was also another piece, I would be curious if you feel played a factor is that you were raising money for Cocodona.
00:39:01.77
Alexa
Oh, yeah.
00:39:03.79
Alyssa
How do you feel like that?
00:39:04.16
Alexa
Yeah.
00:39:06.60
Alyssa
Yeah, do you want to speak to that a little bit? And what you were raising money for?
00:39:09.89
Alexa
Yeah, absolutely. So a year before that, almost exactly a year before that, my brother had been shot in a drive-by shooting. And so I became really involved with gun violence reform and change. And so I was raising money for that organization that I’m involved in. And so when I thought about it, and that’s why it was really meaningful when I’d get text messages from my brother, he did survive but because I knew after sitting next to him in the hospital for a few weeks while he was in a coma and recovering from this horrible thing that had happened, I knew that if he could get through that, I sure as heck could get through running through the desert, right? There’s nothing um that could stop me. And I knew that all the people that had donated to make that happen and to make an impact
00:40:07.28
Alexa
Which by the way, the money did make such a huge impact in the state of Oregon. like I think we ended up buying 2,000 gun locks with them, which is amazing and will help prevent like accidental shooting deaths. So I knew that there was going to be a ah bigger reason for what I was doing than just me running a silly 250 miles in the desert.
00:40:36.34
Alyssa
Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. I think that does when there’s a higher reason or higher power that like, Oh yeah, this is just running and eating snacks.
00:40:49.59
Alexa
Yeah.
00:40:49.83
Alyssa
Like I can do this.
00:40:52.42
Alyssa
Yeah. Lots of snacks.
00:40:55.32
Alexa
Yeah.
00:40:56.69
Alyssa
Wish there had been more could force you to eat more.
00:40:57.97
Alexa
Lots of snacks.
00:41:11.79
Alyssa
I’ll just use UTMB for example of a race that went a lot better.
00:41:19.83
Alyssa
I went into it with a curiosity that I didn’t know really what was going to happen. I thought I’d put as much as I could my best foot forward.
00:41:32.92
Alyssa
And I stayed really present in the moment that I was running. I wasn’t projecting and I wasn’t living in the past. And it was awesome. I just got to like absorb every piece of it and do my best. And I didn’t feel that my worth was attached to the outcome.
00:42:01.70
Alyssa
Which gosh, I wish I could do that all the time.
00:42:03.09
Alexa
Good. why do you think that changed?
00:42:11.52
Alyssa
Well, part of it is that I have worked a lot on my mental health, like my mental performance piece. And so I had a lot more tools that I was taking into it. One of my mantras was stay here, be here. So anytime I would find that my mind was wandering, I would just say that of like, okay, don’t project, don’t think about what could be and don’t think about what was. So that really helped.
00:42:47.45
Alyssa
I think it was my first time ever doing it. So to be honest, I just really didn’t know. I’ll be curious, because I am doing UTMB next year, how that plays out. I hope I can come with that curiosity.
00:43:04.35
Alyssa
And I think it’s just, it’s a magical event. And I think when you really get to sink into the magic, That’s pretty remarkable. And I was also, despite the hiccups, I was really well trained for it. And so I just ran. I did what I trained to do, which was run hard. And that was fun. I like just got my mind out of the way.
00:43:29.22
Alexa
Yeah. And you seemed really happy during it, which is, I think, really important. You seemed joyful. And yeah, like you weren’t… It was just a different way that I’ve seen you race. You looked you looked lighter, psychologically.
00:43:48.06
Alyssa
And I had quite a few people who know me really well say that they’re like, you looked so, I mean, obviously it looked like, like, I mean, I was throwing up at the end.
00:44:01.21
Alyssa
Like I gave, I didn’t even know I was going to get down the last three miles.
00:44:03.32
Alexa
Yes.
00:44:05.04
Alyssa
I mean, I pushed hard. I still think there’s a lot more left there. Cause I know like multiple mistakes that I made, but I also, I had my team, like I had my husband there.
00:44:09.42
Alexa
yes
00:44:17.21
Alyssa
I had. all of the power of all of the people who believe in me, behind me, and I felt that so palpably in a way that I don’t think I have in previous like i have in a while, or I didn’t.
00:44:37.75
Alyssa
And what’s crazy is that I would say that this year started out as like a massive disappointment in a big way, like up until UTMB. I mean, San Diego went well, but I felt like, oh my gosh, I have just been the quintessential kind of like first year on a pro contract. Like horrible, tough year. A lot of people who are on their first year of a contract do have a really hard year because there’s this feeling of pressure. like You got to step it up. um And I was like, oh my gosh, how? I’m like playing into that narrative. This is just going to be a bad year, and it is what it is. Everyone has bad years. I had a great year last year.
00:45:32.55
Alyssa
And I had someone, I was just at the running event in Austin, and I had an on person who I know super well, and I run for on, um come up to me and say, was this the best year you’ve ever had? This has got to be one of the best years you’ve ever had. And I was like,
00:45:49.77
Alyssa
Holy cow, what a difference from how I felt in the beginning of July to now being asked by someone who knows my results and knows everything saying, wow, like this pro this was one of your best years, right? And me being like, yeah, I mean, like not, I actually still think yes last year was maybe a little bit, I mean, who it’s like hard to,
00:46:15.62
Alyssa
quantify that, but truly like ended up being a great year. And I think it’s a testament of like, don’t count yourself out.
00:46:27.29
Alyssa
You know, it’s like I had almost written my year off in July, which is halfway ish.
00:46:34.42
Alexa
Yeah.
00:46:34.69
Alyssa
And there was still so much time and also that you can you are in control of changing what’s happening. that narrative. like, you’re… go ahead.
00:46:50.66
Alexa
Oh, yeah, I think for you also a big part of it was changing who you who you surrounded yourself with, you know, changing a major aspect in your training with changing of coaches and changing the narratives that other people told you about yourself.
00:47:10.61
Alyssa
Yeah, and I’m lucky that I had pointing at you and a whole support team that said, it’s not crazy for you to make these. Well, you did the same thing. You made changes as well. And I do think, I know that Tor didn’t necessarily go the way that you expected, but I do, or hoped, but I do think that down the line, the changes that you made are going to pay off.
00:47:43.92
Alexa
Oh yeah, I completely agree. I’m very happy with that decision too. And, and I think that next time I endeavor on something like cocadona, you know, hopefully that’ll show and I’ll see those improvements and changes being implemented. So.
00:48:02.60
Alyssa
Yeah, I think that, um, yeah, I guess just one last two takeaway before we talk about approaching it with clients is that it’s never too late to make those changes that you’re not locked into anything that you are always the one that holds the power. And if you, and I think that was, that was truly for me, like.
00:48:33.83
Alyssa
On paper, it seems crazy to change coaches two months, three months before, quote unquote, biggest race of your career. But if I hadn’t done that, there’s no way I would have ended up where I did.
00:48:52.43
Alyssa
And you have to listen to your own intuition.
00:48:53.79
Alexa
Yeah.
00:48:55.35
Alyssa
But you also have to, I think this is the biggest thing is you have to surround yourself with a team that is greater than that one voice to say that’s not okay. And to remind you of your self worth.
00:49:08.08
Alyssa
So having that core group of people that’s like, Hey, you’re not running with the joy or the lightness or the fun that you usually do. Or there’s something that’s like, that doesn’t seem right within you. Like having that outside perspective, because that can be, and I think women are even more susceptible to kind of just like going along with it.
00:49:35.71
Alyssa
Um, and so, but even though our intuition’s like, this isn’t right, I know this isn’t right, but we don’t want to rock the boat as much. And so when you have those voices that you really trust saying, Hey, that’s not okay.
00:49:49.43
Alyssa
That really helps give you the power to be like, yes, I see that too. I just like, couldn’t, I was a bit paralyzed by it or I couldn’t, I didn’t feel like I had that power. So surround yourself with people who know you and also want the best for you.
00:50:02.18
Alexa
Mm hmm.
00:50:05.96
Alexa
Yeah absolutely. Super important. And yeah, I think you make a really valid point of making making that hard decision. And it’s never going to feel like the perfect time to make any big decision when you’re changing how you’re training or who you’re surrounding yourself with, or even like who’s crewing you or who’s pacing any of those small little things that you surround yourself with for your decision making when it comes to expeditions or events, it’s never going to be a perfect time, but it’s always an important thing to do and to make that decision.
00:50:44.19
Alyssa
And I think that one of the pieces as well is, and I hope all of our clients feel this way, is endurance is the long game. So what might feel really jolting and also what might feel disruptive and potentially impact your next event.
00:51:09.26
Alyssa
that you have to look at the bigger picture of like, okay, the next race, etc. Because I did have a DNF in there, like in between you, I think we’re kind of figuring out Tor as well.
00:51:20.42
Alexa
Yeah.
00:51:23.02
Alyssa
There was a short term consequence or impact of making those changes. But the long term gains are massive. Like, that’s what’s going to lead to a greater change.
00:51:35.72
Alyssa
And I think always remembering The bigger picture, when especially when we’re talking about endurance is massive. Like we’re playing the long game.
00:51:49.94
Alexa
Yes, absolutely.
00:51:53.79
Alyssa
So like I’ve said, you are our mental performance specialist at uphill. You have a client who DNF’d.
00:52:08.56
Alyssa
Tor, what are you saying to them that maybe you didn’t say to yourself?
00:52:16.62
Alexa
Well, I think that I actually did try try to tell myself the same things. So um what I tried to do was really remember why I made that decision. Because after you DNF, you always sit in this like, well, actually, I could have totally done it. I was warm. I was having a great time. I don’t know why I dropped. And you question yourself. So you have to look back and be like, why did I make this decision? Write it down. Remind yourself, this is why I made that decision. And I made the right decision by doing that.
00:52:49.30
Alexa
And then you have to allow yourself a period of grief and like sitting with that, right? I want my athletes to remember that it’s okay to be sad and to feel disappointed and that’s okay. And to use that to look into the future of like, this isn’t the end all be all. My story doesn’t end here. I still have more to give. I still have more to offer. There’s still more that I’m going to accomplish. When I look back at this event, it’s going to be a blip in my history.
00:53:19.19
Alexa
And then finally, the biggest thing is what did you learn from that DNF? What can you take away to take it into your next adventure, into your next race? Where can you utilize those lessons? And we pick ourselves up and we get back after it.
00:53:43.47
Alyssa
Love it. Yeah, it’s funny because I feel like both of us are so compassionate towards our clients who go through these things. And both of us were very not compassionate to ourselves after.
00:54:00.59
Alexa
Yeah, of course.
00:54:02.03
Alyssa
Yeah, because yeah.
00:54:03.72
Alexa
Yeah, it’s easy to be compassionate to other people.
00:54:10.14
Alyssa
Absolutely. I mean, yeah, when I have a client who DNFs, the first thing I want to make sure is, are you okay? You know, how are you doing? And exactly as you said, it’s you had a reason, even if it seems less realistic, or less like real, I guess. And it’s okay to be sad. It sucks. You spent a lot of time focusing on it.
00:54:39.52
Alyssa
But that DNF also isn’t an indicator of failing because you probably learned something pretty incredible from that. like I can say that every DNF I’ve had has taught me something about myself that I would not have learned. Truthfully, I learn the least from races that go super well.
00:55:10.58
Alyssa
Great. Things went smoothly. I didn’t really learn much. Which is, you know, I don’t hate that. Like that is nice sometimes.
00:55:23.15
Alyssa
But the races where things go sideways, that’s where I learn.
00:55:24.12
Alexa
Yeah.
00:55:28.11
Alyssa
And that’s where I put more tools in my toolbox so I can pull them out in later races.
00:55:34.95
Alexa
Yeah, absolutely. I think another factor that’s important is validation. And I was lucky enough to have you know a crew person there. And one of my Alyssas athletes was there with me.
00:55:50.18
Alexa
and they were both very validating of my reasons to drop and then also my coach was super validating of it which is important and I hope that everybody has that experience where their coach can sit with compassion with them and hopefully I mean if you have a coach that is shaming you in any way that’s not an appropriate coach athlete relationship and Now’s the time to make that leap to find somebody that is compassionate and kind and can help you see what you learned and where you can take that in the future.
00:56:27.75
Alyssa
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think that’s just like stamp that piece if as I think ultimately, a coach is someone, I mean, they understand your training history, they’ve been with you through the ups and downs, and their reaction does matter a lot.
00:56:54.36
Alyssa
Regardless of how tough or strong or independent you are, like that person does matter.
00:56:54.63
Alexa
Mm-hmm.
00:56:59.86
Alyssa
So if your coach is shaming you or dismissing you, that’s not okay.
00:57:10.41
Alexa
No, no. Big red flag.
00:57:14.67
Alyssa
Big, big red flag. so Any last pieces you’d like to touch on with failure, DNFs, any words of wisdom when both of us have this happen again, and we are, and we’re going to send this recording to each other and say, listen to this so we can remind ourselves.
00:57:29.90
Alexa
Yeah.
00:57:42.90
Alexa
Yes. um Well, one, DNFs happen. And if you never DNF or you never failed at some aspect of your life, if there was nothing, if you always just perfectly executed and you always achieved exactly what your goals are,
00:57:58.71
Alexa
One, I think that you’re not setting high enough goals for yourself. You’re not pushing yourself because part of learning and part of growing, especially in these sports, is failing. And so it’s unrealistic to expect that we wouldn’t ever hit these points. And again, if you are, if you’re consistently just nailing it,
00:58:18.62
Alexa
I want to push you to choose a bigger, scarier goal because we shouldn’t be able to execute all the time. That’s just not how life is.
00:58:32.61
Alyssa
Love it. Yeah. I mean, that’s, I think that’s such a huge lesson that if you do not, if you nail your goal right off the bat, it probably wasn’t high enough.
00:58:49.44
Alyssa
And that’s, it’s okay sometimes to be like, ah, cool.
00:58:53.98
Alyssa
I feel really good about that, but then you need to keep stretching.
00:58:59.88
Alexa
Yeah, absolutely. Always grow.
00:59:05.35
Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah, I think I would just like to say that the compassion you give to others, I just hope for whoever is listening to this, you can have that compassion for yourself. Because I can tell you, I was really, really mean to myself. And it didn’t accomplish anything. And I regret the opportunities that I regret the decisions I made of like looking up the race results and continuing to like make myself more miserable by the choices I was making when I was really down versus being like, okay, here’s how you’re going to do things that are going to make… like like Force yourself. You can still feel sad, but don’t wallow in it. like
01:00:03.57
Alyssa
Do things that make you a little bit happier or surround yourself by people who help you go to a castle or see marmots or you know something.
01:00:11.86
Alexa
Yeah.
01:00:13.60
Alyssa
Don’t just sit there in your bed and be like, oh yeah, I’m going to keep looking up how these people are so much better than I am and how I failed. Don’t do that. Because it doesn’t help anything.
01:00:25.00
Alexa
yeah
01:00:25.14
Alyssa
And you’re missing out. Hopefully you’re in a beautiful area from a race. Go enjoy that. So that’s something I wish I had done and I wish for whomever is listening that they can have some piece of them that is able to pull yourself out or get the right people on your side to pull yourself out.
01:00:53.38
Alexa
Yeah. And I think another really big aspect is that external validation that we talked about in the beginning. Remember that nobody else has those same expectations of you and that everybody will be happy with your decision if you were safe and you made it home. And if in the end, like you’re happier because of that decision. I mean, you’re sad at first, but if you’re safe and you didn’t get hurt and you made the decision and it was the right decision for you, everybody is going to support that. And if they don’t,
01:01:25.21
Alexa
They’re not your people.
01:01:28.73
Alyssa
Absolutely. Love it. Well, thanks for this. If people want to take part in working with you, mental training, mental performance, how can they do that?
01:01:47.26
Alexa
Well, you can reach out via Uphill Athlete and we can set up a consultation. or we can set up coaching either way.
01:01:58.94
Alyssa
Awesome. Well, thanks Alexa for joining me. I’m excited to get this out so that hopefully if any of you have felt this or are feeling this way, hopefully this is a little bit of support, a little hug that we can extend to you. Thank you for listening to the Uphill Athlete podcast. If you can rate, review and subscribe and let us send that hug out to more people, we would appreciate it.
01:02:28.73
Alyssa
It’s not just one, but a community. We are Uphill Athlete.