Martin: The way people or athletes underestimate Aconcagua is that it’s a really big climb. It’s non-technical on the normal roots as, as we discussed, but it’s still a big climb. It takes a lot out of you. So it is tough. It’s a great challenge, but it’s absolutely a rewarding experience when you are up there on the summit.

Steve: Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. My name is Steve House and I have a really great episode for you today. With me here today is Coach Martin Zohr, three time Aconcagua climber and coach to many Aconcagua athletes and climbers over the last years. Welcome Martin.

Martin: Hi, Steve. Thanks. It’s good to be here.

Steve: So today we want to talk a little bit about the challenge and logistics of climbing Aconcagua. [00:01:00] But we wanna spend most of our time in our area of expertise, which is how to physically prepare and train for Aconcagua. Martin, you’ve been there, you know, a number of times, I’ll admit right off the bat, I’ve never climbed Aconcagua, never guided it, never went down there. So why don’t you just sketch out for us what Aconcagua is in terms of a mountain and what the challenge is.

Martin: Sure. Yeah, I’ve been to Aconcagua. It’s been, it’s been a while. Five, five and a half years end of 2019 for me, it was a very important milestone for me as a climber, but also for the experience, as for me, as a coach as well. So I really have fond good memories of that. So at Conka, what was the first, like, real high, high altitude summit? Before then, I’ve only climbed in the Alps, or I was trekking in Nepal. [00:02:00] So the highest altitude I reached , until that point was maybe 5,500 meters but this was a real step up for me big unknown so I went there just without expectations, but trying to make the style that I like the most, which is , try to climb fast and light. and I eventually managed this I approached this mountain through 360 route so we can talk about the different routes later. But it’s important to know that there are two main access valleys towards this mountain. But maybe backtrack. Aconcagua is the highest mountain of the American continent, so counting south and north, higher than. Higher than Denali, almost 7,000 meters says what it is in Vita.

Steve: It is 6982 meters, and I think that boils down to [00:03:00] 22,838 feet.

Martin: Okay, great. Yeah, that’s good. It’s actually the highest mountain outside of Asia. It’s probably good to realize that. So if you go, if you want to go higher, well you need to go to the great Himalaya and in Carra. So it’s, , it’s pretty exciting. But otherwise the Agua at least the normal route, , they are non-technical , go advanced hike to some extent. It can definitely change with conditions it can snow and it can get icy. So it’s good to be prepared for any scenarios, but we can consider it not a very technical climb. Nonetheless, it’s a very challenging one.
Steve: There are four roots and variations. The normal route via the ulu, the 360 route from Plaza, Argentina, the Polish Traverse, and the Polish Glacier. And these [00:04:00] are all a little bit , kind of related, if you will. It’s a lot of these routes and you know, I think you sort of cut your teeth on the, then doing a speed ascent from Plaza deas. I believe you took the 360 route and you were able to complete that. And what was it, like three and a half hours or something insane, right?

Martin: Yes. So approached the mountain through well, they have the names, these valleys, wa, valley. And the other one Anyway, that doesn’t matter really. The guiding companies will guide you there. What is important to know is that the Plaza de MUAs is considered the normal route. It’s the easiest one. The approach towards the base camp is shorter, so it usually takes two days of hiking, which is then usually interspersed with one rest day. So it’s a four or five hour hike towards the intermediate camp. , from there, the next day you go [00:05:00] just for a short hike towards the South face. It’s a very impressive one south face of a con gaga. , and that’s going to be considered an easy rest day. Also staying at the same similar altitude. And then the third day you go towards the place demos base camp. if you go towards Blazer, Argentina, so that’s the eastern side of the mountain, it usually takes about three to four days.
So it’s definitely longer, it’s about 45, 50 kilometers in total distance, but it also allows you to acclimatize, , acclimatize, , progressively. and then the 360 route sort of navigates the mountain. So that’s why it’s called that way. It’s pretty beautiful, like both roots are amazing to me. It’s a stunning place. The undies are a special place for Condors flying above your head. And so it’s really, it’s quite stunning. But as a character like geologically, it’s a desert. It’s [00:06:00] a very, like, barren rock so many glaciers nowadays but it’s still beautiful.

Steve: So what are some of the challenges of climbing Aconcagua?

Martin: Let’s break it down into different, different factors. So when it comes to the physical demands of the climb, so you looking into like Multiday climb from camp to camp with the increasing altitude. So the altitude has a big effect on your capacity.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Martin: if you break it down into the days, , you know, you, it’s easy to look up the, , the way the, the camps are situated on the mountain. So I would say the first part is actually getting to the base camp. I think the base camp is around 14,000 feet, for 4,400 meters. That starts to be definitely felt, and you are sometimes kind of pushed [00:07:00] into a relatively fast climb. Usually what follows after getting to the base camp is you do a carry of material to the first camp, come back down and recover. What follows is then actually climbing from camp to camp higher and higher. First, so there are three camps, main camps on the normal route. 50, 250, 600 and then 6,000 meters eventually cholera camp, which is the highest one. , so there are different logistics on the mountain. So most people, most athletes have to carry their weight, everything, , all the gear, , to the first, , camp, second camp, and eventually even the third one.
So that can be quite a, quite a big, big, carry. It’s quite important and be, you have to be ready for it.

Steve: So I’m hearing that you really have to carry heavy loads. I have to do basically steep hiking and difficult ground like scree and that kind of [00:08:00] stuff. And then you have to deal with, most of us, pretty, pretty extreme altitudes.

Martin: Yes, some, so some athletes choose to not do that. They actually hire porters for that. I know that that’s something that you have to answer for yourself, like

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Martin: How do you want to approach this climb? So that’s definitely possible. But most of the athletes that I work with, they chose to do it themselves. So then, you know, you have to really be ready for it, and that takes a while to build up that capacity. , it’s good to know that with the cold, , extreme cold actually, and the winds, you have to have the high altitude gear pretty much. So

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Martin: in really big boots you have to carry crampons in case the terrain above is icy or snowy. So that’s a lot of weight. And , walking on that screen , it’s like moving rocks with the big boots, it’s, it’s, it’s pretty nasty. It’s not nice. So it’s, I think, I [00:09:00] think it’s important to be aware of this , when you’re preparing for the climb.

Steve: And it sounds like I’m just doing a little rough math on Smith Day. You know, you’re gonna be doing basically a thousand meters of gain and descent that’s probably the lightest day in terms of load carrying. But that comes on top of a bunch of back to back days of carrying very heavy backpacks in very difficult conditions of screw and big gear, clunky gear. , hard to balance. It’s windy. You know, one of the things that people don’t think about when they hear about wind is it makes it very difficult to sleep in a tent that’s like flapping all night. I mean, I’ve spent a lot of nights in flapping tents and it can, it can really be exhausting ’cause you just can’t, you know, you just never get into that deep sleep because there’s so much noise around you and, and energy, like, just like this.
Like, there’s just this anxiety that [00:10:00] you’re, you know, is, is hardwired into us that somehow we’re gonna get blown off the mountain even, even though we’re, we’re most certainly not. Plus trying to eat. That’s another huge challenge on these altitude expeditions is just getting enough calories in. What, what is it that, you know, we need to think about when we think about physically, physically preparing for an expedition like this?
Is it this, is it the, just the aerobic base? Is it the strengths? Is it muscular endurance? Is it the balance? , I mean, there’s so many different things here. How do you approach that as a coach?

Martin: Well, yeah, you named it. it. So the, all the factors that, so I, the way I approach this as a coach is actually doing this, try to break it down into the factors and then see, okay, like how each of these factors is important. And try to then cover them more or less in the, in the [00:11:00] training. And some of them basically are in the same category, right?
So we took we talked about. The Aerobic base, having, that’s the ba that’s really the base of everything on everything else, and

Steve: Yeah, absolutely.

Martin: Kind of include the rest. Right? So, , maybe back to, , what you said before, , what,

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Martin: two, chem three, , getting ready for that big summit day, which is actually in, when it comes to a Concur quad, that is the biggest elevation gain. , if you start from camp three from [00:12:00] cholera camp. On the normal route, so you’re, you are going for a thousand meters elevation gain 3030 500 feet elevation gain, sir.

Steve: For those that haven’t done a lot of altitude mountaineering, you need to realize that starting at a high altitude and then going another thousand meters, you know, 3,300 feet up and then coming back down, is going to feel like that. You’re always gonna feel that. It’s very common also, like for example, on Denali, you roughly climb that high, like this kind of thousand meters on Smith Day, if you sort of look around, I mean, even Mount Rainier is about 1200 meter, , 1200 meters on Smit Day, , is around a thousand meters on the Smit Day from the hut. You know, a lot of these climbs have that amount of climbing on Smith Day. And what happens is, you know, you, you climb up. To an altitude, you’re well above what you’re acclimated to, and then you come back down. But as you [00:13:00] come back down, you’re actually still sort of getting, if you’re getting sick, you’re actually getting sick on the, on the way down usually oftentimes. And you’re feeling, if not sick, you’re just feeling worse and worse and worse. , and so coming back down, it’s one of the reasons that, you know, besides just the mental, , letdown of having been to the smit and accomplished something, you are physically feeling worse as you, as you return to high camp and coming back into high camp is, is, know, people don’t talk about it, but it’s often one of the hardest moments. But let’s go back to, you know, we’ve talked a lot on this channel about aerobic bays. We know that this is absolutely key, especially at high altitudes where we have to be aerobic. We really can’t go anaerobic at 6,800 meters. It’s pretty, pretty difficult to do and it’s also not very productive. So this is, this is [00:14:00] absolutely critical for people climbing and it just takes a certain amount of time. So why don’t you, how long does an athlete or a potential Acconcagua climber need to be preparing? Like, how many weeks or months do you feel like is ideal for someone to start building their aerobic base with structured training?

Martin: It’s a great, great point here you’re mentioning. So when an athlete approaches us, coaches and has certain expectations about okay, I want to climb a certain mountain in a couple of months, so we need to kind of do a reality check, so to speak. But let’s talk about Aconcagua here. Aconcagua season, by the way, we didn’t talk about, starts in December and goes probably until late February, sometimes March.
But , that’s, that’s getting late. So,

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Martin: Now in June, we are looking into [00:15:00] having six months to prepare. So is that enough? So , of course that depends. So we always have to approach each athlete. Individually where they are right now. And try to assess, do some testing and see, okay, like we have six months to train. So what can we achieve in those six months? So we can kind of guess, but also we work with physiology, with the knowledge of physiology, and we know that the adaptations, , that are, that are coming from the training, they have a certain timeline. So from there we can, we can do the planning and I think we can do a pretty good job with most, most, most athletes to prepare them for this climb.
So then as I do as I mentioned before, , I kind of work with those factors. Try to break that, break it down into the factors you need to be prepared for. Well, back to back days, long hikes , increasing steepness, work with fatigue, [00:16:00] altitude, the nutrition, all those all, all those challenges in a very harsh environment with cold wind possibly.
And worse, worse and worse asleep and looking into a really big smit day on top of all, all of the days, all those days, , leading up to the smit. And just by the way, sometimes you will start the summit day, not from camp three. Some companies actually decide to do this from chem two. So just to make it more challenging, some more challenging, , you might actually be doing 1500 meters elevation gain on that last day. Then as you mentioned, , also go down. So that does the descent we often kind of forget. And , that’s where it sometimes goes very wrong. You just don’t have enough reserves in you , to actually come down safely. So of course your, you have a guide and porter, , next to you helping you, but of course you want to, you wouldn’t want to be [00:17:00] independent, and have that in you to come back down. ,

Steve: Yeah.

Martin: , all in all how to prepare, , coming back to the Aerobic base. So that’s really, , that’s really the kind of the core of the, of the training for endurance. , so. It comes down to whether we need to establish, determine where your Aerobic threshold is. An Arabic threshold is, explain to you what the intensity zones are and why we are actually trying to establish them.
Right? So we want to, , we want to target a certain type of metabolism, , talk about Aerobic efficiency. , and , then of course it’s, that’s not everything. You mentioned Anaerobic versus Aerobic. How important is that? I definitely touch in, during the training cycles through, during the, the whole year cycle.
I definitely go into the [00:18:00] anaerobic zone. Sometimes we try to also improve their lactate threshold capacity. , we try to increase the VO2 max, so the maximum aerobic capacity, which is actually the top of the, sort of like Aerobic engine, if we can call it that way. , but when it comes to the climb. The most specific intensity that you will need to have, like really strong, is really the Arabic base, so-called, and , that is the most important one.

Steve: Yeah, and I wanna highlight something that you just said and make sure that people hear this, that, know, constrained, for lack of a better word, by our physiology. And when we use our aerobic base, we are changing our metabolic properties. You know, and I think I would really encourage people to, if they haven’t already, go and read some of the blogs and listen to some of the other podcasts that we have at Uphill Athlete about [00:19:00] aerobic metabolism and how. happens when you train it because there’s really no shortcuts. If somebody comes to us eight weeks before acaa, I wish I had a magic pill that they could swallow to make them aerobically fit, but I just can’t help them as much as if they came to me eight months before. If I have eight months. With an athlete working towards a big climb, we can make incredible changes in their metabolism as it pertains to the ability to go at moderate and low heart rate intensities for hours on end, carrying heavy packs, and doing all the things that are required on an expedition like this. So the more time you give yourselves to prepare, the much better off you’ll be. There’s really no shortcuts to your aerobic system. And you know, this is one of the uncomfortable truths of training for mountaineering is that you’d need a lot of [00:20:00] time to do it and. I also really encourage people to think about this for a multi-year of, you know, not just what do I need to do in the next two or three months, but you know, I’m a mountaineer.
How do I continually improve my aerobic base over years? Because I’m always gonna climb mountains ’cause that’s part of my life. And that’s really when you get into these long-term, incredible , positive adaptations.

Martin: Yeah, I agree with you, Steve, I think that we are, we can mention the core training principles here, right? So it’s the, it’s kind of the, , the, just really working from the base. So , keep it easy, easy, moderate, and , yes, you want to go sometimes to a high intensity. But I guess where most athletes, most people get it wrong is just pushing a little too hard, a little too often, or almost all [00:21:00] the time, almost every session, you just kind of like, I need to push hard to get better. And that is where it often goes wrong, where it leads to plateaus in, in your performance or just not really seeing, seeing getting better or getting stronger. You wonder why, why am, what am I getting wrong? So that’s really one of the first messages we try to, , try to get to the athletes is just, , try to stay patient and you will see the improvements,

Steve: Yeah.

Martin: in, in everything.
But really try to be consistent. 

Steve: Sorry if I may interrupt. I just want something you said. I just wanna summarize, and we said it a thousand times before, but you cannot shortcut. Aerobic base building with high intensity training. High intensity training absolutely has an important place within training, but it needs to come on top of the aerobic base, especially when we’re talking about high altitude mountaineering objectives. And I think, you know, [00:22:00] you’re, you’re really good at, at blending those, , as a coach. And that is sort of some of the magic of either building a great training plan or whether or building a great training program for an athlete that you’re coaching is to blend all these different modalities.
So what is, you know, if, if we’re looking at someone, let’s, let’s take a hypothetical athlete, and they’re, let’s say six, eight weeks into working with you, what does a week of training look like for that person?

Martin: so, so. I guess after having established the, the, the thresholds just to really make sure that we have those right. , so I guess what the week looks like, I will start with the rest of the day. That is the, maybe also mentioning the recovery, the importance of the recovery. That’s where actually the body is getting stronger and is adapting to all the training load. , I would say then I will. [00:23:00] Kind of have the two categories of the workout, so the key sessions of the week, and then the maintenance sessions. So what those key sessions can look like. It really depends on the training phase. So the phase of the training, I’m trying to, trying to work on one, one factor. So let’s say it can be the Aerobic base. So the key sessions could be just the simple zone two sessions or the Aerobic sessions, which can, which I’m then changing through the, throughout the training phase or in that one week is the vole. So it can be one hour, it can be two hours, it can be actually five, six hours in, in zone two, which, which definitely is super important.
And then actually also covers the fatigue resistance. So dealing with a lot of fatigue. So, you know, then I am actually , like looking for certain, certain metrics. Certain, like a feeling, like how does that feel? How is it? When did you get tired? How did you, how did that fatigue show up? Is it more [00:24:00] kind of, , the, the cardio function or is it, , so the heart rate is kind of starting to go down because of the fatigue or is it the muscle fatigue? and , it’s gonna be, so back to the key sessions. , I would say the strength part. So , usually there is at least one strength session. , in the week. , and so, we can be looking at the maximum strength, or we can be, , we can be covering the muscle endurance, protocol, which, which is for me, the very specific one before most expeditions.

Steve: Yeah.

Martin: I definitely want to improve the most. And , then the rest of the week looks like maintenance. So it can just be simply the easy moderate sessions or then recovery. So it’s very easy. Instead of having a complete rest day, I ask the athlete to just go out.
But it’s just very easy. Don’t really focus on gaining fitness. It’s more about helping and [00:25:00] facilitating the recovery.

Steve: Yeah. I want to highlight a concept that we talk about as coaches, not just internally at uphill athletes, but universally among endurance coaches. That there is this concept of, , the training density. And this is the idea of a period, and you can use seven days or 10 days or whatever period you want.
Let’s stick with the seven days and How is that, how dense is that training? So for example, if I have a really hard strength workout on Wednesday and then a really long aerobic effort on Thursday next day, that’s really, that’s really high density. There may be a time and a place for that, but this is where you, you need to know the difference between when it’s right, the right moment to do that for the athlete versus having the strength training on [00:26:00] say, a Tuesday and having the long, , endurance aerobic session on say, a Saturday with lots of time in between with lots of these kind of recovery workouts in between.
That’s a lower, much lower training density. And this is another one of those that as coaches we’re working with, because it’s not only the workouts, right, it’s also the. The human, what is going on in their lives? How much are they working? How long is their commute? , all, how many responsibilities do they have?
Because stress is stress and the body doesn’t really differentiate between training, stress and stress due to other external factors. So we need to really think about that, and that’s something that as we progress, we can increase the density as an athlete adapts and make some of these hard sessions, , [00:27:00] purposefully close together.
And one of the things that I know that, that you and I have talked about and we’ve talked about internally as a coaching team very often is the art of. to build back to back long zone two sessions, which I think is very relevant for us. You know, typically for most athletes it’s Saturday and Sunday. Because most of our athletes are working professionals and they have full-time jobs. So that’s the weekend when they have the time. And so that’s, what does that start to look like if you’re gonna, if somebody gets to the point where they’re gonna be able to do two longer zone two sessions, how are you, what does that look like?
Is it like one hour and three hours? Is it two hours? Two hours? What does, what is that sort of looking like

Martin: Sure yeah, I like it. It is you, you actually touched on, I. some important points here. So maybe first that [00:28:00] most of us are no professional athletes, so we

Steve: Right.

Martin: include all the other stressors, , in our life. So then of course , I need to account for that and , adjust the plan based on the athlete’s life and duties and, , recovery or the lack of sleep, for example, right? So , the plan can look perfect on on the calendar, but it needs to be adjusted on a daily basis. So, the daily, pretty much daily communication is a key there. , then how do I kind of, , keep making sure that, let’s say you have the space for the strength and the recovery after the workout, and then, , how far apart are these key sessions?
Right. So, , I would say maybe somewhere beginning or middle of the training phase. We talked about months. I. , leading to the climb or to the, to the project, , to the objective. So I guess we try to really develop these, these kinds of unique factors, but then [00:29:00] sometimes life is not perfect, so the athlete kind of needs to shuffle things around. So what happens if I, we put on a heart brain strength session and maybe a long, long zone to workout, a long hike, a long, long uphill day, , close together. So I actually sometimes encourage that. , possibly closer to leading to the climb because yes, as you, as you already mentioned, this is working, possibly the fat fatigue resistance we call it, or the durability.
So you are actually tired leading into the next session. And that is something very important also, to develop. That also helps me as a coach to kind of increase the training load. , sometimes the, most of the time, I guess most coaches , try to increase the overall training load in the, in the training block, , by increasing the vole or increasing the intensity or both. But sometimes we don’t need to do that. We actually can kind of shuffle the workouts as it is with that given vole and [00:30:00] putting the harder sessions together, and that actually increases that training stress. And, , it’s a, it’s quite an efficient way to do it, I think with most of, I. , the, the type of athletes we have, the, the time crunch athletes, and, , so just something I wanted to mention,

Steve: Yeah.

Martin: Guess coming to the specific phase before the objective, what did that look like?
So yes, I believe that for most athletes that would be the weekend. We have the time, we have the time to train. So I sometimes , actually put the day off just before Friday to make sure that the athlete has actually the capacity to do the big, big long day or actually the big back to back. So that is, for me, also very important to actually be okay, like prepare that body and to really go big and deep into life, hitting that physiology. , and , that’s one part, one thing. , and then I guess it really depends. It can start with the first big day. So that’s [00:31:00] basically coming from that rest day, sure that the body’s rested. And so I just kind of go bigger. I, I put like the bigger day on as a first. And the second day. It’s gonna be like four hours, two hours, so Saturday to Sunday, or it can be equal. It really depends on the options that the athlete has as well. I also try to, , make sure that mentally, , it is, it is manageable. So some athletes, they don’t have hills or mountains around, , which is, I guess, the most specific way we can train for mountain objectives. Sometimes it’s really just the gym, gym option. So StairMaster inclines the treadmill, where we can really focus on those specific factors, , like the appeal capacity. , and so putting the, you know, asking the athlete to do 4, 5, 6 hours on the STA master. I mean, that’s sometimes necessary for sure, but I try to be careful with that because the mental aspect is really important. And , the boredom, the, just the mental [00:32:00] strain of it is really, I. Quite, quite high. So, and then asking the athlete to do it again, even maybe less so on Sunday. I mean, it’s sometimes a very, very tough task. But, , you know, try, try to, I guess juggle all these, all these aspects, , the physical and the mental, , based on the daily side.

Steve: I want to highlight something that you said, which is, I think an area where a lot of people who are working from a training plan or working from the books or from Reddit or wherever they’re getting their training information, make mistakes. And that is moving workouts around. When people look at a training plan, whether it’s uphill athlete training plan or from another provider, often they’ll take the training plan and then they’ll look at it in the beginning of the week and they’ll say, well, this doesn’t fit my schedule, so I’m gonna move this to this day and this to this day, and that to that day because that’s when I have time, because I have the babysitter this day, or I have this work trip that day. And they [00:33:00] don’t under, they don’t take into consideration that the distribution of the training loads over that week has been very carefully thought through. And when you do that, your, your randomizing, the training density, , which is a really good way to. Get overtrained, honestly, because, , especially if you, if you, if you increase the training density too much too soon, more than what you’re ready for and, or you shoot yourself in the foot and cause yourself to plateau because you’re already well along in your training and all of a sudden you’ve, you’ve taken the training density from high to really low.
And so if you’ve done that, you’re not going to adapt and you’re not gonna increase in your fitness. So this is a concept that’s really important. It’s really thought through. It’s something that coaches spend probably a lot of their mental energy thinking about when they’re working with athletes. So, wanna, wanna [00:34:00] highlight that? That was a really good point you brought up.

Martin: Yeah, I agree. I think that we can agree on this. The, for each athlete, I, I guess the, back to the individuality, that’s the one of the most important training principles. So each athlete is individual and they are at their given level of fitness. So you cannot just, , throw at the athlete, , , training plan for, for, from, for somebody else. It’s, , it can go, it will go wrong. Most of the cases. So there’s the optimal dose of training and we need to figure it out very quickly, , in the beginning of, , the coaching process and, , and yes , just monitor throughout. Then, the training phases monitor the athlete. So I guess the fatigue is an important part of, of course the fatigue has to happen so that the body adapts to it. But if there is too much of it, then over training is a real danger here and that’s something to Abso absolutely avoid.

Steve: Yeah.

Martin: Do we do that? I guess to just, , communicate, try to see [00:35:00] all the metrics in training peak, so the response to the training, , and then the recovery metrics. , if you, if it’s a resting heart rate, , heart rate variability or just, , just really the communication just to kind of see, okay, notice the, the signs of fatigue or, , yeah, the stagnation, , lack of response to the training. Those are the signs of excessive fatigue, I guess. And it’s just good to take a, take a rest day, take care, easier week, and , making sure that we do this, do this right.

Steve: I wanna drill down on something that you just touched on, which is the data. And we are living in an era where athletes are swamped with data potentially. And if you are an expert or if you are a coach, you will. the when and where and how of something like [00:36:00] heart rate variability. But if you are not an expert, , this is, this is very difficult to, to put in the context of everything else that’s going on with your physiology. I want to encourage people to both those, working with a coach to communicate this. And if you’re not working with a coach and you are using a training plan to listen to this simple response to this question, how am I feeling? Because this simple question is going to assimilate all of the data that, that, that we have, whether you know it or not, and it’s not a, a number or any of these doesn’t need to come from a wearable, your. Your subjective feeling of how your body is doing is going to incorporate how you slept, how well your, , how well you ate, how, how well your nutrition has been supporting your training, how much stress you’re under or not. You [00:37:00] know, how hard the workout was, how high the training density is. All these things are going to kind of come together and, and be very, very valuable. You know, I look at a lot of athlete data and I, if my athletes don’t sub out a subjective note about how they’re feeling in their workout in training peaks, I always text them and I, it becomes a joke because it’s like the most common question. In my, in my chats with my athletes, it’s just like, how are you feeling? How are you feeling? How are you feeling? And you know, I was like, you know what? I’m gonna ask you. How are you feeling? ’cause you didn’t tell me over there in the comments. So, , I need to know before, know, I, so I can think about how to adjust or whether or not to adjust the training for, you know, the, the coming days. So that’s a, a super important, , thing and I want people to really encourage them to, and it’s also connects, if I may [00:38:00] become slightly philosophical for a second, think it connects very deeply to the purpose of climbing mountains and training and running ultras and all these things that our community is doing, which is really like understanding ourselves and. Making space for checking in on, on ourselves and how we are doing. And that’s a practice, right? You gotta do that to get good at it. So I think that that’s super valuable. So thanks for, thanks for highlighting that, Martin. I think that’s really key.

Martin: I think so I would just maybe re respond to this. ,

Martin: That is, I guess we can go into all those topics, , separately. And I think many, many are, have been covered in other podcasts here on this space. But , yeah, how do we measure intensity? Which metrics are we looking for? And,

Steve: Yes.

Martin: I think I can definitely attest to this, that, , the, what research is showing and what kind of the coaching world is, is, is saying is that [00:39:00] yes, we are , getting more and more data, , and we can definitely use that. It takes a lot of experience and knowledge to be able to read between the different lines on the graph.

Martin: But when it comes to, , the subjective feeling, it still has a big, big place, if not the most important one actually at the end of the day, even with elite athletes, when it comes to the coaches asking them, how was the, how was it, how do you feel?
All the data is showing great, but the athlete says, okay, I wasn’t feeling it today.

Martin: that the coach, a good coach, will definitely pay attention to this and maybe step on the brake a bit because there is something going on under the surface where the heart rate or breath rate or power meters, , they don’t really show yet,

Martin: going on there.

Steve: hundred percent.

Martin: RPE, the rate of perceived exertion using that or then basically the feedback subjective feeling is so important. But then I guess what we are here for is [00:40:00] well for the athletes, , and when, why they are hiring us is they just don’t really know what, how to read themselves maybe at the beginning.
So for me, , it’s quite an exciting part of this, , of the coaching work is to try to help them with this. And this is so relevant and so important in the mountains and in the extreme multitude especially. You need to know yourself, like how hard it is. Is the effort right now? Can I manage this? Will I be okay in 1, 2, 3 hours?
Will I have enough capacity for the descent as we discussed before and on, on Everest, on these, , , high mountains? It is so, so important. And, , so I try to always kind of work with the data, connect the dots, , establish the heart rate zones, but then definitely make sure that the athlete starts to understand, okay, this is what the zone one, zone two, zone three, zone four, et cetera, they feel like, and so they can connect the dots, and so they don’t need to rely [00:41:00] on the heart rate data. Why, why is that also super important to say within our space of mountain sports is that heart rate is not a reliable metric when it comes to, well already, like fatigue, dehydration, which happen in, you know, multiple hour workouts. So for long workouts, you have to rely less and less on heart rate as a metric of intensity. , but then when it comes to altitude, when it comes to heat, , and, , I like other stressors, actually, life stressors, ,

Steve: Hydration is a big one.

Martin: I mentioned dehydration, right? So then they affect, , they have the heart rate in a way that you just cannot rely on it.

Martin: to Aconcagua, coming back to Aconcagua, you will not be able to rely on heart rate.
It’s just at that level already, like Basecamp and, and anything higher, it’ll just be off. It’ll not reflect the intensity. It’ll mostly reflect the stress that the body’s going through with the altitude

Steve: Yeah.

Martin: very dry air. [00:42:00] So to a large extent, you’ll be dealing with a lot of dehydration during the climb. So you need to, you should really know, , how to pace yourself pacing strategies, right? So, , so , yeah, I think these are very valid points. I

CTA: If you’re enjoying the show and want to take the next step in your training, join our newsletter and receive a free four week sample training plan. Head on over to uphill athlete.com/ let’s go, and once you sign up, you’ll instantly get a link to try out some of our most popular training plans. It’s a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals.
Check it out@uphillathlete.com slash/Letsgo. That’s uphill athlete.com/letsgo.

Steve: I want to try to pull together some of the different threads we’ve talked about in terms of the, the [00:43:00] different. Threads we can pull on to help people train for climbing Aconcagua. And then I wanna move into acclimatization as its own subject for a moment, but we have talked about aerobic base. We’ve talked about the consistency required of building that.
We’ve talked about building that into the capacity to do longer, back to back sessions, meaning one day, two days in a row of long zone two sessions. We’ve talked about strength training and we didn’t go deeply into it, but you did mention. , periodized approach that we use that all coaches use for, , approaching strength training from, you know, general strength to a maxim strength to muscular endurance, which is the most specific and most relevant talking cops, but you need to do the other two prior to that and have had a good buildup to get the most out of the muscular endurance. , of [00:44:00] courses you have to continually. , maintain the strength you’ve developed, particularly in your core. , as you, as you move through these, these longer periods. We’ve talked about the amount of time all of this takes. We didn’t spend a lot of time talking about high intensity, but muscular endurance is part of that.
You know, it’s typically done. Zone three, we’ll also talk about many, , in many cases, if we have enough time. If I don’t have enough time with an athlete, I would omit this. But if I have enough time with an athlete, I’m absolutely gonna do, you know, higher intensity intervals, like zone four intervals or on people. , I often explain this to people that those are like strength training for the heart, essentially. ’cause we’re asking the heart to work really hard for a really short period of time. And that’s really healthy for that muscle and that is really valuable at high altitude. And of course, doing all of this while staying out of injury, staying in good [00:45:00] health, . know, and, and, and hopefully having some time to work through this period on the technique of mountaineering, whether that’s hiking up and down scree slopes or, or getting to a glaciated peak or something. But, you know, that’s something you want to try to, to build into this progression as was for you, Martin. Most people that go to Aconcagua, it’s a big step up from something they’ve done before in terms of the complexity of all of these different factors that mountaineering makes up. I think high altitude mountaineering is sort of a cruel mistress in a way because, know it, everything gets more complicated the more difficult it gets you. There’s no way there’s, it’s very difficult to just. Increase the sliver. You can’t just increase the altitude, you increase the altitude, and all the [00:46:00] other factors by nature get harder. It’s very difficult to, , kind of remove some of the variables so you can test yourself in, in limited ways as you move through the way It would be in a lot of other sports like rock climbing for example, where, you know, you can, you can do, you know, really short route and do many of those before you start doing longer route for, for example. But that’s sort of a quick summary. I want to talk specifically about acclimatization. And I wanna just sort of preface this by saying the best thing you can do for your acclimatization is have a really good aerobic base and be healthy. Right? Not, and, and those I want, those are, I’m gonna emphasize both of those equally because it’s important not to have.
Any kind of infections or anything like that? No. Kubu cough as we like to call it. , and to be well aerobically trained. And then the actual, [00:47:00] , physiology of acclimatization is not something we’re going to go deeply into here, but I wanna talk about it as it pertains to OC cargo, because it is what most people are looking for, or most people are identifying as the primary challenge. They wanna go and climb an almost 7,000 meter peak. How was this for you? And you went there for the first time?

Martin: So, , for me personally, , AUA was as I was, as I said in the beginning, a big step up, , with altitude. So something very new. I think I came prepared in a way that I live in Germany. I have access to the Alps. So, but it’s still a relatively medium altitude level compared to Aconcagua and anything higher in AYAs. But , for me, the biggest advantage was that I used to work on the high altitude lift here in Mnet, which goes to almost 4,000 meters. And I was working up [00:48:00] there, , as kind of a lift guy. Nothing fancy, but , the acclimatization part was amazing. I basically spent like four or five days per week, , sometimes even sleeping up there. , and for those who know Shaman and Mont Blanc and the area. So that’s a, it’s not easy, it’s, it’s. Quite a substantial altitude already. , and so I think it did something to my body. Like I, I worked out there for I think 11 years. , so that for me was like a big confidence builder. So I, that I would be fine. So this was basically happening , like after the summer season. I had several weeks off, so I was not at that altitude. , and I flew to Argentina. I went to Aconcagua, but I was pretty confident that my body would respond really quickly. , so then coming to Argentina, you fly to Mendoza. That’s a kind of flatland In Argentina, you take a bus or a van, they break you down to [00:49:00] Penitentes, which is kind of a road across the border.
You get to Chile. I think it is close to 3000 meters and you start your hike towards the base camp. So , I was just really training hard from the beginning. , not something where we want to recommend, but I was really kind of. motivated to try myself, to try, , , like a strong fast time, , in that altitude. So, , I guess I don’t need to recommend this kind of strategy for most athletes. , but yes, I think to talk about the acclimatization and what’s needed, , you, you need the time. You need, your body needs time. So for me, I spend it there. Almost three weeks, which is kind of the limit as well with the permits.
You need a permit, , you need to pay for the permit on a con. So the limit is 20 days, meaning you enter the park on the approach towards the base camp. So that takes you a couple of days, right? So you need to, , with the [00:50:00] client needs to happen within 20 days. But then most of the companies that you go with, the logistics are set pretty much to, I think two weeks, , two, two weeks.
And then there is some space for bad weather. So probably like 12, 15 days. I don’t think many people stay there for longer than that. So, , so, , when it comes to acclimatization and how long it takes, , mostly you should be fine. Mostly your body should have the time to adapt. . I would say maybe I can mention some companies nowadays, , nowadays, , lead these, , flash expeditions.
So fast expeditions, we can talk about that possibly. So the idea is actually to pre-acclimatize back at home using mi, the rail altitude. If you live, you are lucky enough to live close to the rail mountains and high, high enough to actually. , offset the de adaptations, , or you can pre acclimatize at home using hypoxic tens generators.
And , that’s the topic we’ve covered already in different podcasts. [00:51:00] and so in that sense, you can climb ba cara possibly within 10 days. Within 10 days, or even shorter sometimes. , another like chapter possibly to touch on. And it’s important to know, , to mention this, , there are, , companies now, , selling, , oxygen climbs, climbing with supplemental oxygen. , I think it’s the idea behind this to kind of prepare the client, these, these types of clients to 40 high altitude lamps in the Himalayas. So they kind of get used to the setup and what it means, what it does to your body. I don’t personally recommend it because I think Aconcagua is a great step up for everybody as it was for me.
And, and as a, as an athlete, I think it’s great to experience that, to just test your body, , because most people climb Aconcagua as a part of the seven summits,
Steve: Mm-hmm.

Martin: mountains in seven on seven continents. So the logical step up then is Denali, , and then Everest [00:52:00] eventually. And so you want to know what happens, how your body responds to this level of altitude.
So as it is really close to 7,000 meters, that is usually kind of the limit of where you need to get without oxygen on, for example, on Everest. I mean, it kind of depends, but , you probably want to get there without supplemental oxygen if

Steve: Yeah.

Martin: I mean, you know, you are limiting yourself.
You, you definitely can put the supplemental oxygen on Everest, , lower than that. , y you, you have a kind of back, more narrow margin for your performance

Steve: And I don’t have enough experience, I don’t have any experience with Oxygen Mask and Apparatus to have an educated opinion on whether or not that’s good personally. But I, it does make intuitive sense to me that the goal of climbing to 7000 meters here is to see how your body responds to altitude. And [00:53:00] not just that, to get used to how bad it feels. Because the reality is, , you know, we’re sitting here and we’re both at, at sea level at home, and we can talk about how, how this, as it’s, as if it’s something that is, . Very abstract, but being in high altitude is just really uncomfortable. And I think that the most relatable thing I can ex, the most relatable way I can explain it is it’s like being very hung over, but you’d never better. , you feel nauseous, you may be vomiting, you feel exhausted, you have a massive headache. , you have no motivation, you don’t wanna do anything. Like, I remember the first time I went to high altitude, I was very young. I was 20 years old, and I got up to about 6,500 meters. [00:54:00] And , you know, I remember waking up, I slept at 6,500 meters and I remember waking up. I could, it took me like, I can’t remember, but it was like three hours just to get my sleeping bag in my backpack so I could walk down, , because I was just flat on my back and. Eventually you realize that that feeling and everyone’s feeling is different and it changes over time and every expedition is different, all that. But being able to operate through that is a skill. It’s a little bit I’ve talked about on this channel and others about how to manage fear. This is a little bit like how to manage pain. And one of the things you realize from climbing at high altitude a lot is, you know, imagine pain goes from one to 10 or zero to 10.
And the thing is about my experience with pain is it, it goes to 10, but there is no 11. It doesn’t get worse. Like it gets bad and then that, that’s kind of as bad as it [00:55:00] gets. And once you can kind of just accept that, relax and operate through that, you can do quite a lot. And it’s mostly a mental game. So understanding how you. Feel at a really high altitude, which I’m gonna tell you right now, if you’re gonna feel bad and, and relax into that. I feel bad, but I’m doing this. What’s the next thing I can do? I have to put my cramp on, on my left boot. Okay, let’s find the cramp on. Let’s get it on. Let’s get the strap through the buckle. You know, just, you just break it down into these really, I need to start the stove. Okay. How do I start? You know, like, you just break it down into these very, very simple things. And this is, this is the value of, of exposing yourself to high altitude, in my opinion, of, of doing something like us. So don’t underestimate it. Don’t expect it. It’s just gonna be like a super [00:56:00] fun picnic in the sun with you. If you want that, go to the beach. If you want to understand how your body’s gonna operate and what it’s gonna feel like and learn how to operate through this discomfort, then absolutely. Like meet the mountain on, it’s on its own terms.

Martin: I agree a hundred percent with this. Yeah. I think why do, why would you kind of reuse that challenge? , because that’s what you’re looking for? I

Martin: not, not right now going into the philosophical part here, but I think it’s actually you can test yourself on a close to 7,000 meter mountain, which is non-technical, at least. about the normal route here.

Martin: is the biggest big advantage. So

Martin: Most athletes, they’re, they’re approaching us because they want to get into mountaineering, , but then they also eventually want to try the seven smits or just try some harder climbs, , in the great ranges in Asia. , so this is a challenge that, , is relatively [00:57:00] easy to take , logistically well organized. And you, you can get a lot of data there, like for me as a coach working with the data. So I will get a lot of information on how you deal with the altitude and how you talked about it, right? Like , how does it feel?
Because the response to altitude is to some extent with training, but maybe less so, is really complex and really individual. ,

Martin: It is related to fitness, but it’s not at all kind of, it’s not a hundred percent related as well. Like you can be really fit, but it still deals badly with altitude.
So that’s, it’s, ,

Steve: But not correlated.

Martin: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, , this is a great kind of experience where you learn about yourself, , learn about yourself, learn about your body, but also coming back to the philosophical part, you will, you will get to know yourself, , working with a lot of adversity, , with a lot of these factors. , you know, and talking about like being, it, [00:58:00] being non-technical. I mean, it can snow up there, right? So it looks like a kind of bare rock and just a scree. But then I had cl , clients, , sending me messages on, on Garmin saying, well, there’s 50 centimeters of snow. I wasn’t ready for this. So , not many people are, because it really doesn’t snow there so often, but it can. And so you need to be ready for these unexpected , unexpected , events. But that’s what. Mountain rings are about a lot. And so I think it’s really good to, to have this experience as we have from the mountains and, and then, , helping our athletes with this to be prepared. So back to the training, you want to be as physically prepared as possible, that is your biggest asset. And then I guess go to a conga and learn, okay, like, how will my body be affected by this altitude? How can I manage, how will my speed be reduced? Because it will be reduced to a, like, really a large extent, how do I deal with sleeping? [00:59:00] , because some people really struggle to sleep up there, and that of course affects your recovery and your capacity.

Martin: All these things, that’s super valuable , information for me as a coach. And then we take it to the next mountain. And,

Martin: So I guess the biggest advantage I see on a conc is that it’s non-technical. So you can kind of really focus on, on this, the performance and the altitude and dealing with that. Having

Steve: And the response.

Martin: Again, the more technical route, like the Polish Glacier, for example. That’s no joke at all. It’s, , 50-60 degrees , snowy slope, sometimes icy. So you actually, some, some athletes ask me, Hey, I, I kind of don’t want to do this,, , long hike. , so on the screen I’d rather do something more difficult. So we can discuss that of course. And , so then we are looking into a very different scenario. You are climbing quite a serious, serious route and, , the most. The difficult part is actually close to the summit, [01:00:00] so close to 7,000 meters. So we can then take, , all that information and a preparation for maybe more technical clients in Himalayas or,
Steve: Yeah, that’s great. You know, I agree. I couldn’t agree more. I think that. Talking is a super valuable kind of crucible for people to go through. of your specialties and, and academic interests as well is how to do physiology and you’re working on, on doing some studies in that area, but you also are running this pre-lit is hypoxic conditioning with athletes that are heading over too high to objectives like Aconcagua, but others as well. What is that? Just give the five minute university and what pre acclimatization is.

Martin: Sure. So I guess the, what is acclimatization is the, the way our body adapts to hypoxia, so that’s the word, the lack of oxygen that our body [01:01:00] senses and altitude, , which is related to the lower and lower barometric pressure. , so, , I mean we discussed the detailed physiology, , in other podcasts. So I guess what I am trying to help athletes with is the strategy here. So sometimes it  involves simulating altitude at home. So using the generators like hypo is one part of other athletes, they have options to go to the real mountains too, you live in Colorado, for example. You actually live at an altitude that is quite substantial enough to elicit a really good amount of adaptations. So there is less need to do that or worry about it. And we actually get enough data from possibly climbing the fourteeners in the States. , right. You, you can actually span, do some specific sessions on these mountains. So that’s often the case with my athletes living in, in the regions with mountains. We take it from there. I kind of tell them, okay, this is the situation. This is what you can do on Aconcagua. We can also, , if we find the logistics with companies, we can make your trip shorter. So you don’t need to actually spend that first week, 10 days , to pre acclimatize before you actually go. , for the smit, that is really the timeline of those first adaptation in acclimatization seven to 10 days when you actually are adapted to a certain level. Mostly it’s about not getting sick. So getting the, the mis adaptation where you actually are. You can get into a life threatening situation.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Martin: So I guess I was pre-acclimatized at home. So the way it works is that you have a generator that is simulating altitude by reducing the number of oxygen molecules in the space where, which is usually a tent, you are spending your time in the tent. So whether we have [01:03:00] options either, either you work on the computer, for example, so you can set it up in a way that you actually work on your computer and you know, in a simulated altitude. But most of the time it’s not possible or just logistic logistically. not you, you cannot just get there. So you use a tent and you sleep in the altitude. So we monitor that and, , there is a certain required time to accomplish a certain amount of adaptation. So we don’t need to go into the details there.
It takes weeks and months to actually get a reasonable amount. Why, why months? All of a sudden, as I said before, seven to 10 days on the mountain, because with these hypoxic generators, you are only spending a certain amount of n, , syndrome, of hours per day. So you have to sort of calculate the time. And so that takes weeks and months compared to

Steve: Why, why so?

Steve: Why can’t I [01:04:00] just rent one of these generators and do it myself and like turn it up high and why do I need you?

Martin: Yeah, there’s a, well, there is a lot of knowledge behind this. I mean, you can definitely try that, but it most likely will not work there as we discussed before. The

Steve: And we’ve seen that, right? We’ve seen, we’ve had a number of people come to us and be like, I tried to do it and it didn’t seem to work. Like, what do you guys know? That I don’t know.

Martin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah there’s an optimal dose for everything and I guess for

Martin: Specifically, and also it’s super individual, so everybody responds slightly differently, and so that’s why you need a protocol that’s adjusted to you, to you individually. So we, we are, I, as a coach, I monitor the responses. Then, I use certain metrics to monitor that. And based on that I can help you with the process. So that’s one way. Then the different way that I use more and more is the actual active training in [01:05:00] hypoxia. So break, prepare your body to be active. So the first part was relatively passive. You kind of spend the time passively in the simulated use. We are kind of talking about two different categories here. So

Martin: passive versus active, and the kinds of adaptations. That happened in the body. So , we talk about central and peripheral. What happens is centrally, the body senses the lack of oxygen, so it starts to adapt so the heart, lungs, blood, blood distribution, and then there is something happening in the muscles when the muscle all of a sudden looks at the body, but the muscle lacks the oxygen. And that, of course, is very, very impactful. , talking about Arabic metabolism. So the muscle muscles adapt in a certain way and that, , there is, , there are a lot of positive positives coming out of it.
So we can, or I can help out with that as well [01:06:00] and fit it then into the overall picture. Like what, what is

Martin: for Aconcagua, right? So back to the beginning, you want to get fit first, and on top of it, we talk about acclimatization in that order.

Steve: Yes. A hundred percent. Great. I think this has been super helpful for people to understand what to prepare for climbing Aconcagua. And it seems like there’s some really common mistakes that, you know, you and I have seen. Just in summary, what are some of the things you wanna make sure people avoid?

Martin: I guess the way people or athletes underestimate Aconcagua is that it’s a really big climb. It’s non-technical on the normal roots as, as we discussed, but it’s still a big climb. 

Martin: A lot out of you there’s a lot going on with conditions. So again, the cold temperatures, the weight, and then really important altitude, high altitude I think physical factors [01:07:00] like weight carrying.
So you have to carry a lot of weight at that altitude. So  if you’re not prepared for it, I mean, , what feels hard in sea level, if you have to carry, I don’t know, 20, 25 kilos of gear, , it’ll weigh quite differently. You will feel it differently at four or five, 6,000 meters. So take training. You, you should, you should go and prepare yourself. And then I guess where. we see a lot of, , like mistakes being done with probably rushing it too mind, too going too fast. So coming to how long it takes to acclimatize so yes, you can get sick up there. It can get quite serious and people go too fast.
They sometimes even die to take it to the extreme and it happens. So don’t underestimate it. Contact us and you know, get in touch. We can talk about strategies.

Steve: Great. Yeah, and I think that a lot of what Martin [01:08:00] has demonstrated, whether purposely or not, is how much. Kind of institutional knowledge. We as a coach individually, and we as a team of coaches collectively have all kinds of objectives like Aconcagua, we’ve been there, we’ve done it, we know all the ins and outs, we know all the things to avoid. We know what the gear considerations are. The altitude considerations are the exercise physiology considerations. know how to approach all these things in a constructive way to get you the best results. So I think that that’s been a great summary of how to, and how to effectively train for Aconcagua. So Martin, thanks so much for your time. I hope everyone listening has to leave here, up and ready, and armed with knowledge to [01:09:00] start planning their Aconcagua trip. And, , wish you all the best. So thanks so much, Martin.

Martin: Thanks Steve. And maybe just if I may finish with the positive note there. It’s a beautiful mountain. It’s a great experience, so it is tough. It’s a great challenge, but it’s absolutely a rewarding experience when you are up there on the summit. I mean, the bus is incredible and it’s a great kind of stepping stone towards the bigger climbs in future.
So I can only recommend it.

Steve: Yeah. And I, having not been knocking, conquering, but other things like this are the people you’re gonna meet, amazing people and probably create amazing friendships  through this experience. So it’s a really, really special place. So, yeah. Thanks for, thanks for ending us on a positive note.

Martin: Great food. It’s Argentina. You’ll, you’ll, you’ll love it. It’s

Martin: also a great experience in that sense.

Steve: Well, thanks so [01:10:00] much and this has been the Uphill Athlete Podcast. We are not just one, but a community. Thank you for listening.

CTA: One of the most common questions I get is, how should I get started with training? Well, they say the first step is the hardest, so let’s make that easy. We are offering free four-week samples of our most popular training plans for mountaineering, trail, running, climbing, and more. Go to uphill athlete.com/letsgo to sign up for our newsletter, and you will not only get monthly insights on training for uphill athletes, but you’ll also get a sample training plan.
It’s totally free, so why wait? That’s uphillathlete.com/letsgo.