00:00.00
Alyssa
Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast our mission is to elevate and inspire all mountain athletes through education and celebration. Today we will be concluding our trail running educational series with a discussion on race strategies and race preparation. I’m Alyssa Clark and I will be your host today. We have fan favorite Will Weidman onto the podcast. Will has years of experience with race strategy and how to put your best put forward on race day. So thanks for being on the podcast, Will.

00:31.49
Will
Hey Alyssa, its good to hang out with you.

00:37.10
Alyssa
Yeah, well I can see you kind of gave a smirk when I said fan favorite but the muscular endurance that was ah that was definitely a big fan favorite for everyone. And I think really just people like hearing us talk about tor des geants that’s what I’ve truly come to the conclusion about.

00:52.59
Will
Um, that’s got to be it. I mean I assume that’s the next podcast series right? It’s just an entire series about Tor des Geants after trail running.

01:00.80
Alyssa
Um, oh I’m quite sure we might lose a few people but you know I don’t rule it out I think the two of our obsessions with the race could certainly keep that going for a while.

01:16.50
Alyssa
But you’ve been up to some interesting endeavors. Um, can you start out with you just did UTMB and now you’re a temporary road runner and then you’re coming off a race director. So yeah, how have things been for you? What have you been up to?

01:37.90
Will
Yeah, so I ran utmb this was my fourth run there and I was one of many people in the chamonix valley to unfortunately get covid um not ideal I think I had the beginning of it during the race and then you know had to get home and quarantine and do all that. So less ideal but you know so a lot of positives from that and good experience from it so recovered from that and then you know I joke this is my 2 to four weeks a year where I become a roadrunner for a little while and change it up so we have the Marine Corps marathon which is local to me. It’s a great race. It’s a big marathon but they do a great job with it. So I do that every year and put in somewhere between no specific training and a little bit of specific training and see what happens but I did a ten mile road race last weekend and then Marine Corps and I will be excited at the end of October to go back to the trails in the mountains.

02:32.89
Alyssa
Love it. Yeah I think that ah those road sections I just ran quite a bit of road in the event that I just did and the whole time I just went oh my gosh. There’s so much running in my race I don’t run this much.

02:48.11
Alyssa
I miss hiking. So like well you’ll have hurt coming up so you’ll get plenty of hiking preparation in.

02:55.99
Will
100%. Yeah, so after Marine Corps it’ll be back to some technical steep stuff training for hurt. But yeah I think it is good I think it’s good to change it up throughout the year a little bit and getting that you know faster effort and cadence up I think is you know you lose it if you don’t do that and it’s maybe not as fun if you love being out in the mountains. But um, yeah, it’s good to change it up for a little while and get some different systems working.

03:21.68
Alyssa
Absolutely that tends to be kind of early spring season for me as a speed work and then every year I think that running a fast 5k is a good idea and then I always go wow this is so painful.

03:38.97
Will
It is funny right? When you’re like oh if only this was 10 hours longer it would be way easier. But um, yeah, when you optimize your body for something that’s kind of how it works.

03:44.18
Alyssa
Yes, yeah, you’re like I only have one mile left. You’re like but that’s a third of the race. Ah shoot so well, let’s get into it. So.

03:52.15
Will
Yeah, yeah.

04:00.87
Alyssa
You’re just coming off of also directing a sub ultradistance trail Race and what are some of the common mistakes that you see people make also just kind of in your coaching in general when they are preparing for races?

04:20.84
Will
Um, well I got reminded of one big one in this race when you start coming out of a national forest campsite you go on road for a little bit and then you head up the trail into the mountain and the race leader took the entire field off course didn’t make the turn onto the trail which was very well marked and they all went going down the road and we got everybody back. We got them all on track. All was well and everybody finished but one takeaway of race planning and preparation is to study the course to know the course to have a map bring a map have a gpx on your watch and it’s amazing that a lot of people you know, put a lot of faith into the course markings which you know from the race director perspective is you can mark as much as you possibly can and try to mark every turn super well. But you know things can happen and people still somehow miss it. So I really think if you’re going to put a little bit of extra effort into something that’s a good place to put some effort. I found that you know just really helpful for me as well like I remembered and was thinking after this incident with the race I ran the trail verbier race a bunch of years ago.

05:35.30
Will
And you know it’s a tough course at sixty eight miles and twenty eight thousand feet of climbing or something like that and that was earlier on my uphill athlete journey I would say and I had a baby at home. So I was in pretty far over my head on that one and I looked at the course profile it looked like.

05:52.68
Will
You know, just the same throughout right? Like big climb big descent and repeat. But I went and actually mapped it out and said okay, well like how big is each climb and descent and what’s the percent grade and like actually broke down each climb, descent segment to try to get some idea of like what it was getting into. And when I did that I found like well actually it looks the same but the first twenty-five miles is really stacked to be much harder and the bulk of the really steep stuff comes in that first twenty-five miles and you know that first couple climbs and descents I got to the end and my quads were shaking and I was totally shot. Yeah, can I finish this can I do 43 more miles and starting to think that maybe I need to drop but I remembered studying the course and then I knew we had 4 or 5 more gradual uphill miles coming up where I could just get into a hiking groove. Recover a bit get some calories in get to an aid station and there was only a couple of miles that were going to be as hard as some of the stuff we’d done. So I think if I hadn’t done that kind of course prep, I don’t know if I would have gotten to the finish and that really helped like contextualize like okay I feel pretty worked over now. But I think I can you know recover and get it done. So yeah study the course. Know what you’re in for and prepare some navigation.

07:09.31
Alyssa
Yeah I mean I think those are great tips I truly don’t think you can look at a course profile early enough because that’s one of the first things that I say to my athletes. It’s one of the first things that I do myself because you want to tailor your training to the course profile as much as possible because if you have a race that has a four or five thousand foot climb. You don’t want to be running on the flat or you know you want to try to get as close to that is possible. Um, or if you have you know western states for example where you know hey actually after you get through a certain section. It’s really downhill and runnable. You have to know that in your strategy. And so that’s one of the first things I say to athletes and do myself is just hey let’s pull out the course profile and like your long runs your speed work etc. Um, you know if it’s a flatter race. We’re doing it on the flat if it’s a hilly race or really mountainous race. We’re climbing and that’s I think one of the biggest advantages. It’s also I think one of the biggest mistakes I see runners make is just not understanding what the course is going to ask of you. So even if it’s not ideal. You know, even if you don’t have a five thousand foot mountain in your backyard. You can figure out ways to make that work.

08:32.79
Will
Yeah I think you’re so right that a lot of times people will be tempted to pull that course up two days before the race. But yeah, the earlier you can do it exactly optimize and tailor everything to it.

08:45.88
Alyssa
Yeah, so going off of that point we say we’re doing our job. Well we have figured out our course we’ve looked at the profile. How do you then come up with a realistic time goal for a race and then how do you talk with your athletes about this and I said this before but it’s something that at this point in my own racing I almost feel intuitive in some ways about figuring out my time goals and I was thinking back of like oh my gosh how do we break that down and I do with my runners. But you do just kind of get accustomed to it after a while. But how do you do this?

09:30.35
Will
Yeah I think it’s a different answer depending on the distance a little bit. So if you’re talking about something up to a 50k or a fifty mile you can probably approximate some of those efforts in training pretty well you get a decent idea right? So if you’re doing a long run. And you’re putting in an hour or 2 hours of a harder effort in that long run you can get a good proxy for okay I think this is my 50k or fifty mile I think it gets really interesting when you get longer than that. Um, and there’s just so many more variables and the error bars get pretty big on that and when you think about say a hundred mile race you might easily spend 2 hours in an aid station if you’re working through some things and spending some time there or you might slow down quite a lot towards the end so there’s a couple ways I think about it. Um one tool as you know I tend to go on the data-driven side of things. So one data driven approach I found that can be helpful is the itra site the international trail running association have you used that much before?

10:30.89
Alyssa
I haven’t used it I’ve just used it to see kind of runners rankings because that used to be how you could get into races but I’m curious how you use it.

10:45.78
Will
Yeah, so I mean I found the rankings are pretty good right? Because unlike some other things it takes into account the course and says okay based on the technicality and the climb and dissent and all that like it gives you a score but let’s say you’ve run a twenty mile trail race but you haven’t run a 100k. You can go for your twenty mile trail race and see what your score was and then for the race that I’m doing or somebody I’m coaching is going to be doing say well let’s actually go and find people who’ve run it in the past who have a similar score to you for itra and. it’s a decent starting point of getting okay, what kind of ballpark am I in and then you can drill down from there and say okay maybe 5 or 10 people finished with a similar score in the last couple years if you can get any splits on that course, you can then look at like who ran good splits or you know.

11:40.34
Will
Even or closer to negative splits versus somebody who might have slowed down more so then you can start to backend to like okay this is probably the range of what I can do and people who seem to pace it pretty well like here’s what that looked like so that can be you know take a bit of time but kind of helps you learn the course a little bit too. I found that can be helpful and then you know beyond that I would say it’s always good to hold the goal pretty loosely, especially if it’s your first time at a distance you know, really just focus on the primary goal is going to be to get to the finish. You’ll hear a lot of people break things down like an A goal a B goal a C goal and I think the main thing is especially if you haven’t run the distance before really focus more on what is that C goal right? that you’re going to want to take away at the end of the day. So if that’s often just finishing a big challenging thing that you haven’t done before and then you can have some B goals and A goals that can be informed by some of you know your training runs and you know talking with your coach and looking at things like those itra scores. But there’s a lot of variables I think it’s always good to hold those a little bit more loosely and a lot of times you know that mentality of focus more on the C goal can actually get you to a better performance. Yeah as I’m sure you found before like when I think about a couple of people I coached this year where was their first hundred.

13:06.87
Will
Two of them like one ran 21 hours at Western States and one ran 22 hours at Leadville but the goals we set were very much well within their fitness slower goals than that and with the mentality like let the race come to you right? And then maybe you can exceed those goals but especially with those unknowns at that new distance started from let’s actually plan on 24 or 26 hours and it’s also just much more motivating if you’re moving ahead of your goals and gaining time on it like that’s never a bad place to be in versus can be a little tough if you ran a section you felt like it was good but you’re 5 minutes behind where you wanted to be um. So from the mentality side. That’s how I like to, especially for those newer bigger challenges think about those goals.

13:51.55
Alyssa
Love it. I love that itra tip I will definitely take a look at that I had not realized that that was something you could do so that’s great yeah you know I think that it’s you can get a sense of a runner’s longer runs. Um, and also if they have previous finishes in distances. You can gauge that relatively well. But I totally agree, especially for new distances I always try to set the expectations not necessarily it’s not low. It’s more just that their chances of succeeding are a lot higher than them feeling like they’re failing and I just find especially with that one hundred distance. You just it’s truly hard to describe in your first hundred miler what happens at mile 65 because something happens after 100k that does not happen in other distances and so I just think it gives you the room to explore that moment that feeling you know those miles without feeling like you’re failing. So that’s definitely I try to have the same mindset of being a lot more gentle in goal setting in your first-time distance and then you have a benchmark and you can kind of gauge future racing off of the past, off of how your training has been going and well I do think that it is important to discuss it with your coach that they can get a perspective honestly I don’t spend too much time talking with my coach about my time goals. It’s more like my mental preparation. You know my physical preparation and then it’s like well the numbers will come, which I think goes to what you were saying about you know the A goal per se happens because the race comes to you rather than forcing the race and so. I Think it’s like process versus outcome because numbers are outcome and we can’t always control that. I think that the other piece of it I was just going to say is make sure that you don’t just have one goal and you don’t have any other ones. Because that’s a very big one. Like I had someone who just said hey here’s my spreadsheet can you take a look at it and he had one goal and I was like hey let’s do like a B, C, D tab just because it throws your crew off if they’re like well we had this number and that’s the only number we have um and B everything. That’s not that is either like oh my gosh am I going too fast or I’m failing. Ah, and so I think just giving yourself a range. It’s a much more graceful way to enter a race. We’ll say.

17:01.43
Will
Yeah, and I’d say thinking about that conversation with your crew as well or your pacers also and I love the episode on crewing and pacing and I think Codi has some great perspective on this but sometimes especially if people haven’t.

17:14.60
Alyssa
Okay.

17:17.69
Will
But as close to it if you say something like yeah, my goal is to go sub 24 in this one hundred mile race and then you finish in 25 hours you objectively that is amazing right? And that’s incredible and should be celebrated but I found sometimes it’s interesting like crew again if you’re not as into it thinks like okay well you had a goal. That was the goal and you didn’t quite make the goal and like making sure they’re aware of like look there’s a big range of outcomes I will be delighted to finish this thing. Maybe it’s 24 maybe it’s 28 you know set those expectations. Um, and that can be helpful too and you know let them know like if I’m behind on splits like that’s fine and that happens and you know making sure you know they’re staying positive on that front too I’ve come across that sometimes.

18:04.12
Alyssa
Um, yeah, and you know I don’t think it’s from I think it’s just so lack of complete awareness of how much those splits can really mess with you if someone’s like oh well, you’re 30 minutes down and you’re like maybe just don’t tell me that.

18:18.71
Will
Right?

18:21.11
Alyssa
Or you know they they mean it comes from a place of caring or you know them wanting you to do your best. But yeah I can really be a psychological hit if they say you’re really not doing so hot are you and you’re like what the heck you’re not out here.

18:36.49
Will
Yeah, exactly. I’ve had times where like crew will try to say something encouragingly right of like oh well, you’re behind your splits but you’re not that far behind and you know it doesn’t feel great and then I had one race where you know I was working through something I worked through it. Felt great and then started running way faster and they actually weren’t even at the next aid station because they just didn’t realize like how much the ups and downs can go right? And how much you can go from being behind like no then actually feeling good or vice versa. So this you know the highs and lows of these long events.

19:13.96
Alyssa
Yes, absolutely that’s why I think that’s why so many times I have not truly believed a race was going to have the outcome it did until maybe like a quarter of a mile from the finish because you just. I think the more you do it the more you realize that you could break your ankle half a mile from the finish and everything could go out the window. So um, hold your cards tight until the finish don’t start believing. It’s going to happen until right before the end.

19:47.37
Alyssa
When your actually so we’ve talked about coming up with a goal time. But then how do you go about coming up with a race strategy and how do you help your runners to develop hey we’re going to accelerate here. You’re going to hold back from here. How does that look for you?

20:05.97
Will
So my approach there is either 2 or 3 P’s depending on the runner in their mentality. So you mentioned process so process is the first one. But I think of it in terms of process then performance and then depending on the runner placement. But really process needs to be the primary focus for the bulk of the race. So in something long like a one hundred mile race I’ll say look through mile 50 process goals. That’s really all that matters try not to know where you are like don’t worry about where you are in the field. Don’t worry about splits or anything like that just focus on you know process, this many calories per hour thinking about forms thinking about efficiency at aid stations getting what you need from drop bags. Whatever other logistics sunscreen like just keep in the process goals. Make sure you’re staying on top of everything and really honestly like through halfway that should be the main focus for most people for most races then from there if you want to think about okay, if you’ve done that well and you actually feel pretty good and pretty fresh like then you can get to more of like okay. Maybe can you push a little bit more and when can you start thinking from a performance standpoint of like okay here’s how I’ve been running here’s how I feel. I know I have this climb or this descent coming up. Maybe I can actually push the pace a little bit on that.

21:32.20
Will
Still staying smart and it really then you know start to bring in more of those performance kind of goals and then I think for a lot of runners. You know placement may not be the goal and I think that’s great. But I think if you are focused on placement, one thing I’d say is look. That’s really a mile eighty-five, ninety type of thought. Right? so in the hundred-mile race it’s processed to hour 50 you can start thinking about performance. You know up to a mile to call it eighty five and then if you want to. That’s when you can start thinking about place and saying okay I’m going to try to push and pick up places so I try to think of it in terms of that framework. Yeah, the interesting thing is you know where I’ve where I’ve done the best at that like some of the races that have gone just overall the best like um, some of the races I’ve done at hellbender and bighorn I for whatever reason did a better job of being able to go in and hold things loosely. I didn’t care where I was in the field and didn’t really think about the overall time and just said this is my goal. These are the process goals and this is how I want to feel at mile 50 and just stay on top of things and take care of it and then the ironies when you do that? Well, that’s when you actually probably get the best performance and placement. Um, which I still sometimes forget but we try.

22:49.52
Alyssa
Well, we’re human too. It’s yeah, that’s a huge part of it. That’s absolutely you know I think that so one of the I can count how many times people’s jaws have dropped when I say that a hundred mile race about oh 70 of it is ah it’s like the approach of the climb you haven’t even gotten to the climb part yet you know the actual get on the wall and start your climb like you’re still approaching and so or it’s like the buy-in to the actual race and. People are always shocked about that and I always just say nope you’re in a hundred mile race you’re talking sixty plus miles before you are thinking about racing. Um, and so it’s all about every decision that you are making in the beginning fifty miles at least is going to affect the latter half of your race and the better decision-making you can have the better off the second half will be um, it’s it’s really interesting to see I think you’ll have a lot of fun with this hurt is a very very clear that course tells you how well you’ve been managing yourself because it’s five twenty mile loops and people will have fantastic 3 loops and then they will walk the last 2 and absolutely lose it and it is so fascinating to see how.

24:22.90
Alyssa
Well, that management in the first sixty miles plays out in the second half of the race or the second two loops. Um, and so the whole time when I was doing hurt last year I was just thinking you know, no one cares if you do sixty miles well it matters if you do one hundred miles. well and so I think so often we can get caught up really early on by that idea that oh man, the sixty miles that was great and then absolutely blow up. Um, so very similarly for me, you know for a 50k. It’s a lot different. You could have to go out fast and aggressively and be really strong um throughout the race. Especially if you do have stronger goals I think 100k you know, honestly with the speed of 100ks these days 100ks definitely have an element of putting the pedal down a bit earlier than I think kind of used to be.

25:00.55
Will
Um.

25:17.35
Alyssa
But it depends on the hundred k I mean hundred k’s in the alps could still be a 15 hour race so again I think I’ve always been a really big advocate of playing it cool and save the first half. And then really starting to see what you have the second half and you can tell I mean you can get a sense of that. Um, but that’s kind of the strategy. It’s like I loved the I got told a long time ago. A great way to check your pace, in the beginning, is do I think that I could keep this pace? You know in the second half of the race and if the answer is no chill out relax.

25:57.67
Will
Yeah, in a long race. It’s really easy to think well the last third is going to be hard no matter what right? I’m going to slow down I’m going to be tired so I might as well you know, get that time in the bank or push a bit more in the beginning. It’s really easy to think that.

26:11.71
Alyssa
It doesn’t work.

26:15.62
Will
It doesn’t work. Yeah I’ve been thinking about this question and even you know if like a hundred mile distance I think the last four hundreds I’ve run I think have been like even splits or slightly negative and there’s some coarse nuance there like bighorn is an out in back and its a pretty significant net downhill in the second half. Um, yeah, so there’s some other factors at play. But you know I think you can do that and you know that idea of banking time like doesn’t really play out and if you do manage it well like and you train well you can you know, really close well in that last part of the race and it’s so much more fun and motivating way to do it too right? Because you know you’re feeling good. You’re passing people versus the opposite. Um, so it’s a good mindset and I always say like at least have that mindset and work towards those process goals and try to do that.

26:56.48
Alyssa
Yes.

27:11.57
Will
I think your point in the shorter more intense efforts which sometimes are longer intense efforts like in some of these 100k performances is a good one too and that’s the one case where we’ll certainly train a lot with heart rate data but not always race with it. But I actually think heart rate data can be helpful as more of a governor. To know like where that line is and to say like okay I will push a bit more and say those 50k but I won’t go above this heart rate on the first big climb as a way to just manage that kind of intensity and effort. So that’s another tool you can have in your arsenal. Recommend heart rate more is like a governor on the high end to not go above on a race day type effort but that can help make sure you’re making it sustainable for the back half.

27:56.58
Alyssa
I think there’s a good balance there with a heart rate I find mine jacks up no matterwhat I do just because of nerves taper etc. But I am aware you know if I actually say that I give myself about 5k to be a total idiot at the start of races because almost always you’re going out fast, especially in Europe you’re just booking it out and I always just go okay I’m just going to let this be kind of dumb and then I will settle in and then if my heart rate still stays really high I’ll be like okay I’m backing off quite a bit because I can’t let myself go past this point but I will say that I do give myself a little bit of grace to start just because sometimes you have to get out quick in Europe to get to shoot the gap into a tight trail or a narrow trail. Um, and so giving yourself a little grace at the start but then really being a bit more firm after you get out of that kind of chaotic energy of the start will help you in the later half.

29:07.95
Alyssa
So when you are going about. We kind of figured out a race strategy. We figured out maybe a time goal etc. How do you then go about writing it down. Giving it to your crew. Are you a Google spreadsheets or how do you break down those actual like let’s have some numbers to look at.

29:33.58
Will
Oh so many spreadsheets Alyssa so many spreadsheets. Ah yeah very surprising um yeah I think you know writing down splits and the split ranges is super helpful and again like not holding too tightly to it but saying look this is the fastest end this is

29:38.59
Alyssa
I’m shocked.

29:52.65
Will
The slowest end or the cutoff times. Whatever that is just so your crew can have some idea to plan and when you’re doing that. What’s helpful too is to actually have not just the total time in the race but the split for each section. So I mentioned that case where I’ve had times where like. one section didn’t go great and I was behind pace and crew thought they had 2 hours and I got to the next aid station in an hour and they weren’t there yet which is totally fine but you can plan for that by giving them the distance new splits between the aid station to focus on so I definitely would give them that you know, be able to focus on and then gear as well. So you know have the gear lists so they know what’s there and can reference that and sometimes it’s hard in the middle of a race but knowing okay, this gear is what’s there. What’s in the drop bag? What’s in the crew bag? Try to get some idea of what you think you might want at each aid station just to make the job easier for crew and write down. Okay I think you know I’ll probably be going into the night around this section and up to this climb. So it’s going to get colder. So this is where I should get some warmth right? Like a warmer hat and shell and as much as you can plan that out and write it out. Your crew so they can you know have that leg up that would be I think that’s super helpful and I also think you know when you have your nutrition plan and definitely recommend you know having a nutrition plan built out give that to your crew as well.

31:19.71
Will
So they can get a pulse of what’s going on and have an idea of are you ahead of that? Are you behind that are you filling you know too few refills of soft flasks. You’re not going through what you have so give them a sense of what you think you’ll have both overall but on each section. So ideally, you know each section between crew or between drop bags. You have that mapped out I usually put that in a spreadsheet and then we’ll have that for the crew as well and then try to give them like that’s a lot of information right? And so I do get that part as well and try to think of like okay what are the like truly the most important things and separate that out of like I need a headlamp at this aid station these are the things everybody needs and I need to make sure we don’t forget and really have those must-have type things so those don’t get lost. Yeah so I kind of think about it and try to.

31:58.76
Alyssa
Yes.

32:14.57
Will
Help provide that.

32:17.44
Alyssa
Yeah that’s great. You know I think having those spreadsheets knowing that they’ll change but giving your crew a sense of timing is really helpful and to just give yourself a framework as well. I find depending on the race. So for example, dragons back had splits on everyone with checkpoints so that was really useful for me for planning purposes of being like hey I think it’s going to take me approximately this time. So I’m going to check these splits a lot of other races will give some information about when people are hitting checkpoints. You can kind of find someone you think you might be similar to and use those in your strategies. Always take a head lamp one aid station earlier than you expect. So if you’re like oh yeah, this is gonna be the aid station. You’re right about here. It’s gonna be 7PM take the one at five don’t do 7, it’s always earlier. Yeah, and you know I think the the thing to remember too is that your crew is doing an enormous favor and please don’t get mad at them. Be nice to them. They’re doing that.

33:10.12
Will
Hundred percent

33:28.87
Alyssa
Best they can and you all have to roll with the punches and the more organized like I label everything I use a bunch of like I have one of the companies I work for gives me clothing and bags and I just use those bags and I label everything of like aid station here. So I kind of try to do the work for my crew beforehand where within my numbers I’ll also be like hey here’s the bag that I need. It’s already marked at the aid station. So just the more work you can do for your crew beforehand the easier it will be that they won’t be fumbling around and not have any idea where your stuff is and you’re just making their lives a lot harder.

34:14.87
Will
Yeah I used to be guilty of what I’ll call like the big bag of stuff approach with crew and just having this duffel bag with tons of stuff in there which is really hard for the crew. I’ve definitely moved more towards okay yes, like overall there’s this stuff that have the separated bags. Okay, so if you’re going to see me here like recently at utmb for example, right? My wife knew at champex lac like here’s the small bag that’s labeled champex lac like with the nutrition and supplements that I need for champex lac and then here’s trient and here’s valerine. Um, so whether it’s drop bag whether you don’t have crew and are using drop bags or you are using crew doing that is really helpful and sometimes you hit multiple drop bags and or sorry one drop bag multiple times in a race and a lot of times your crew is moving the same bag for you. So separating out what you want in each spot using those separate bags labeling it putting your warmer nighttime clothes in 1 bag that’s labeled there and like extra daytime clothes in a different bag trying to yeah make that as easy as possible for the crew.

35:26.74
Alyssa
Yeah I don’t think you can I’ve never heard a crew member say gosh you were overorganized what a pain. So yeah I would definitely err on the side of you know, break it up especially nutrition I think just put each one in every bag and then you have an idea and actually you brought up a great point about checking your runner’s nutrition. That’s something Codi has said multiple times that he wishes he did more with me is just like hey show me your wrappers because I’ve worked with people and they’d straight up lie and they told me before the race that they would lie about how much they had eaten as if that is the most fascinating thing. Anyone’s told me, but thank you for telling me that you’ll lie to my face. So.

36:16.82
Will
Um, yeah yeah I was running the Cruel Jewel hundred a couple years ago

36:21.90
Alyssa
Keep them modest and yeah.

36:32.51
Will
And I did a little bit too much of the big bag of stuff approach which predictably did not go great and I remember I had a friend who was running and we were running together like back and forth for a lot of the race and it was around mile I don’t know 70 maybe and it was nighttime. We both got into an aid station together. And her crew was there and they had this I can only describe it as like a tackle box that opens out and had but ah, a really big one with tons of compartments. So everything was laid out super neatly in this giant contraption with a separate space for everything so one gel here one gel there.

37:12.20
Will
Electrolytes like all way down and it was just so organized and we’re looking over and then looking over my bag of stuff and being like I got to up my game here and she was so organized and she beat me in that race. So you know, maybe it paid off.

37:29.25
Alyssa
Yeah I do this is now like the big bag of stuff approach that’s going to become a new term I love it. We all have to do it a few times. But yeah, it all. Honestly, the other thing is get military people to crew for you and they will whip you into shape. They will not let you get away with bag of stuff. Um, they don’t work that way. So let’s get into the gear side of things because we have kind of started to dip in that direction. What are your kind of I always bring this with me when I’m racing and then how do you kind of start figuring out your gear as you’re packing for a race?

38:19.44
Will
Yeah, we talked about this one a bit I think when talked about your recent races. But first starters bring the required gear. Don’t try to shortcut it look at the list. Bring this stuff on the list. Whether the race you know I’ll get questions of well does this race actually check the gear or does that race check the gear and my answer is always you know, just bring the stuff. It’s there for a reason and you need to have it so that’s the starting point anytime you’re in any mountainous environment whether it’s on that list or not I would also have things like a safety blanket things like a waterproof shell. Um, probably like some lightweight gloves and a lightweight hat just a couple of basic you’re in the mountains you might be out at night. It might get cold. You know, just basic type of things that you’d want to have on the hydration and nutrition front so you know certainly have hydration with you I will always at minimum have 2 front flasks no matter how frequent the aid stations are and one thing I recommend to is at least have the capacity to have more. So even if you don’t fill it put a third soft flask in your pack it weighs almost nothing if you’re realizing it’s taking you longer between aid stations and a day gets higher than expected and its 3 hours instead of 2 hours at least you have it then so always have the option for a little more hydration capacity. Always bring some form of electrolytes. You know, whatever your preferred form is if you have electrolyte caps or powders or something else. You know I recommend bringing that more calories than you think you need so you know if you have a plan have that nutrition plan but have a bit extra dial it up a little bit. A very good thing which is have your headlamp an aid station before you think you’re going to need it which I think you should at minimum. Do that there are sometimes where I say but just bring the small headlamp. Yeah, just bring the small headlamp the whole time and maybe you get you know the heavy one for nighttime.

40:14.70
Alyssa
Just don’t put it away.

40:24.21
Will
Bigger more powerful, slightly heavier one but have something so you know there are some lightweight options out there. They don’t weigh a ton then you have it at least? I always recommend having some kind of anti-chafe. Whatever you use, but there’s things like squirrels nut butter makes those like really tiny tubes that are pretty easy to throw in a pack. So that’s a lot of the stuff that I would pretty much always have most any race, most any distance. You know, pretty much any conditions as a minimum and then obviously depending on the race can be other things as well.

40:57.65
Alyssa
Excellent and this is kind of a sub topic of that. What is your basis of poles or not poles for a race I have kind of weird numbers that I’ve crafted in my head but what are your feelings about that.

41:17.56
Will
Ah I use poles in a lot of races there. There is probably some threshold of where poles can be helpful versus not so I have my own numbers that I probably use you know I think for me personally that number is around twenty thousand feet of climbing for a hundred mile race that ratio roughly. That being said, one thing I always say is if you’re tired towards the end or for some reason things aren’t going as well as you might have thought or the course is harder than you thought or a lot of times you know the verb profile isn’t always accurate. It’s good to have the option. So if I’m not using poles I will usually still have them with crew or in a drop bag. But in general I’m a fan of having poles as part of that practicing and training with them and yeah, there’s a lot of technique to them and for the most part what I do and what I recommend is. Try to you know, use them on those steep uphills where they’re going to be really helpful. But for the most part, try to store them on the flats and downhills because I find it affects form and cadence and you tend to run a bit less efficiently and a bit slower. The counter factual of that is yeah if you’re really tired and you really just need them to take some of the burden off the legs then they can make sense later in a race to use them on a downhill for example and you know, I remember like first time I ran utmb I used them on all 3 of the last steep downhills I don’t think I’ve done that since then but it was really helpful then.

42:49.61
Will
Um, but yeah, it’s good to have them to practice with and part of that practice is how do you store them? How do you attach them to your pack? How do you deploy them? How do you put them back and do that efficiently? Especially if you are planning on using them on say uphills then storing them for flats and downs.

43:05.44
Alyssa
Yeah, no I totally agree. That’s about I would say really, it’s a race profile. So I’ve run a 50k that was eight thousand feet which normally you’d be like yeah, that’s the lot for a 50k but it was the most runnable eight thousand feet I’ve ever done. So poles actually wouldn’t have been that useful for it. So I do a combination of elevation and looking at the elevation profile coming back to that because if you have a lot of like you can have a lot of elevation gain. But if it’s just more on the rolling hillside.

43:33.00
Will
Yep.

43:40.72
Alyssa
Poles actually really aren’t that helpful I find the same thing that you just said that if I have them out on downhills and flats unless I’ve destroyed my quads and I’m super tired I run slowly like I definitely slowed down because of them.

43:54.60
Will
Um, yeah.

43:57.47
Alyssa
They can be a little bit trickier to eat with and so yeah, just really looking at the elevation profile. You know, are there some really big climbs where you’re going up several thousand feet because there could be a race where thtre’s only say it’s a 50k there’s five thousand feet but there’s a two thousand foot and a three thousand foot hill and they’re really steep and you might want them for those sections. So I think just being aware of your race. Also if you do decide to use them practice with them. Absolutely and I think they’re really helpful as you do fatigue like I didn’t use them until the fifth loop of hurt and I found them really helpful just because it’s very technical train and you just start getting more fatigued with that.

44:45.46
Will
Yeah I remember I made the call to not bring them to bighorn last year which is right around that twenty thousand foot and I waffled on it but I did not bring them and then we hit mile 30 maybe 32 and there was a drop bag there. So I could have had them in that drop bag and not used them at the start.

45:05.38
Will
But then we were coming up on a five thousand foot climb and you know I was not I was in a low moment too. So I was not feeling good going into this climb and had to go up five thousand feet without my poles and then yeah people were going past me. And I had some pole envy I must say I really want I was like maybe I can just snag somebody’s pole while they’re going by me and use it for this uphill and luckily things turned around and it turned out well but that was a good reminder that yeah you might want them on some sections.

45:34.65
Alyssa
Yeah I will one piece of advice though is that there are some races that will only allow you to have poles if you start and end with them. So just check the race. Um, the race rules for what they require, kind of goes back to the headlamps thing I know.

45:52.25
Alyssa
Most utmb races require you to have two the whole time. They won’t let you switch it out. Um, yeah, just to add on to what I carry I always carry squirrels nut butter I have more than once had issues and been super thankful for squirrel nut butter.

46:11.53
Alyssa
I almost always bring some form of ID sometimes a credit card. You know some form of payment just in case something weird happens and then I like to bring some kind of a buff or something to wipe my face off or just kind of like cool myself down. You know you can stick some ice in there. But I find that’s helpful. Also if you’re going into the night it’s just a nice extra layer I tend to always run with a hat and sunglasses. Um, and yeah, just proper fueling I love the extra water bottle I always bring an extra water bottle. Just because you want that carrying capacity especially if it’s rugged I’ll often add that extra water bottle will be a filter bottle. Ah, and so that if there are stream crossings I can filter some water. Um, you know there is always that balance of weight and speed. But I do think being just slightly cautious is never a bad thing because things happen in races and we think of them as very controlled environments and truly they’re not you know? There’s a flag on that piece of trail but it’s still a trail and there’s still a lot of things that can happen. Um, out there as well.

47:28.12
Will
Yeah I think the filter bottle is a great one and is really helpful on some courses I’m curious when you do that? How do you think about the electrolyte aspect right? Because if you’re getting your electrolytes in your bottles. You kind of can’t really with the filter or do you put electrolytes in there or do you just keep like electrolyte caps. How do you navigate that?

47:49.58
Alyssa
Truly, that’s a great question and I haven’t fully figured it out yet because I’ve not found an electrolyte that filters. Well in that I also don’t necessarily trust that I can I just would be worried about the filtration system. Also it just doesn’t go through I’ve tried it before with just normal water. Um, so you know I will occasionally if I’m on top of it use salt tabs I do try to have one bottle with electrolytes and keep that you know it’s a question I haven’t fully figured out I wouldn’t say that I am the heaviest sweater or like the most electrolyte dependent person so I can get away with what I probably shouldn’t.

48:44.69
Alyssa
All the time but it’s something that I want to keep figuring out I do think if you have practiced with them and are used to them having a few backup salt pills or Salt Tabs or something along those lines is not a bad idea because there might be a time where you had an aid station where you don’t have a drop bag or a crew and maybe they run out of electrolytes or something and if you just have a few backup salt tabs I think that’s really useful and are just a little bit safer. Especially if you know if electrolytes are an issue for you.

49:19.27
Alyssa
Um, yeah, do you have any insight on that?

49:20.53
Will
I agree it’s good to know what your electrolyte concentration is for that one like I have some idea of do you do well with six hundred milligrams per liter or eight hundred or one thousand so then if you know like okay I’m taking a half a liter of just water I might need to get 3 or four hundred milligrams of extra sodium. So if this electrolylte cap has one fifty maybe I can take two of them with this bottle. But it’s tricky. Yeah, that’s a hard one and then you have to have that with you too so plan ahead for that. Yeah, it’s tricky.

50:00.28
Alyssa
Yeah, you know it’s something that like I said I definitely want to become more knowledgeable or at least I sort of started looking to sell pills a lot more just because I do think they’re a useful tool I think. For a while we were personally I was kind of afraid of them because I just heard some horror stories. But I do think they’re really useful, especially I do a lot of big solo stuff where I have to filter water. You know that I don’t want to carry four liters of water on me.

50:31.45
Will
Yeah.

50:34.64
Alyssa
Um, and so it’s something I’m learning a lot more about and I do think it’s a really great backup in races I mean makes a huge difference. I wish Moab had a little bit more water in parts I definitely would have filtered and then maybe I wouldn’t have been so dead at mile 50 right? Yeah, it all turned out fine. So one of our last questions and we’ve touched on this a bit is drop bags.

50:54.74
Will
It all turned out. Well oh yeah.

51:12.19
Alyssa
How do you go about setting up your drop bags. How do you even just like get them to where they’re supposed to be, walk us through your experience with those.

51:22.71
Will
Yes, that’s a place where again, it’s good to really study the course and do it well ahead of time because knowing okay, how many drop bags are there. How long is it going to take you roughly to get to them gives you a good idea and you might have cases where I’m thinking of canyons this year Alyssa right? With some of the course changes we didn’t have a drop bag between mile 14 and 50 basically right? No crew, no drop bag so knowing that and knowing okay I need to be used to carrying what I need for thirty six miles and however long it’s going to take me.

51:47.40
Alyssa
There is a huge gap. Yep.

51:59.77
Will
And then what do my resupplies need to look like and so from there you know, plan section to section so plan your nutrition in those different chunks so that you know you have enough for each section and then label those sections because. Well further, it is into the race the more tired you are and the easier it is if you come to that bag and it says okay, you have 1 bag but inside it’s you know nutrition is here. Maybe its electrolytes are here and then here’s my gear and here’s my headlamp and try to like compartmentalize that and you know try to channel that runner with their tackle box and you know have it as easy as possible to navigate and the nice thing is if you put all your nutrition in say like ziplock bag you can just take that with you and sort that out as you go or at the aid station and you don’t need to go like okay I need to fish for these 4 gels and these two crackers and go through all of that. So I would I would plan it out that way. One thing you really like to do is if you’re using powders in your bottles I think it’s a good investment to have some extra bottles that you pre-fill with some of the powders I wouldn’t put the water in because then yeah, they can leak or explode if something is on top of them where they’re transported. But if you’re swapping out. You know, 2 or 3 bottles with powders. It’s nice not to have to you know at that aid station try to fill with, 2 to 3 bottles that way and it’s spilling all over to place. So I think that’s a good strategy if you have some of those extras and have that as part of that nutrition and like a separate bag there.

53:30.61
Will
And then make sure you know what’s going where double check the labels double check which aid station needs to be where where things get dropped off I’ve had races where drop bags didn’t get there and its probably my fault like I don’t know for sure but I probably you know didn’t put it in the right spot or didn’t you know, put it in the wrong location for it. So double-check that and make sure again you look ahead of time in terms of what needs to be there when do your drop bags need to be dropped off sometimes it’s actually quite far ahead of the race. Sometimes it’s the day before you have to have your drop bags like really double check all that and then try to have it as organized and labeled and structured as you can.

54:13.10
Alyssa
Yeah I mean that’s definitely it just goes back to I think the runner’s manual becomes your best friend and I don’t think you can look I mean if you look at my frequently viewed tabs right before a race. It’s the race, the runner’s manual or like the race website. It’s like look you know just double, triple check where you’re supposed to have them. Have them really well labeled and I love the idea with the extra water bottles. I have had situations where things have broken on me. It’s actually why I do not use bladders. I had a bladder break on me in a race and I carried a plastic water bottle, a plastic jug like a juice jug for I think it was about 60 plus kilometers which really didn’t feel good on my back and you know if I’d had a drop bag with extra bottles then you know it would have saved me a lot of strife. So I do think you don’t have to go crazy you don’t have to have like backups on backups and backups. But I do think some of those key things where you know something breaks. Just it doesn’t weigh much just throw it in and you’ll probably be happy in case that does happen.

55:31.59
Will
Yeah I’d also have the mindset that while the race might try. It’s not their job to guarantee it stays dry. So your drop bag might get wet. So plan it that way and use dry bags and use different waterproof bags for both your food and nutrition. But also if you want to have spare layers. You know you want those to stay dry as well. So think about that aspect and make sure that if it rains during the race. You know, regardless of what the forecast says your drop bag will survive that. Everything will stay dry inside.

56:08.20
Alyssa
Yeah, that’s great advice and also if they do not supply the drop bags to you make it colorful make it stand out so that if you’re trying to find it. Ah you can find it colorful duct tape is a good.

56:21.84
Will
Good one? yep.

56:24.98
Alyssa
It’s a beautiful thing. So last question what is your best advice for race day nerves?

56:37.20
Will
Yeah, it’s a tough one you know with these big challenges and it’s going to happen. I don’t if you’ve talked about it or if you’ve read it but the book called the obstacle is the way you come across that. Um.

56:49.79
Alyssa
Um, no, but I’ll put it on the list.

56:54.60
Will
I think it’s a great read like it goes in a lot of different topics and you know even goes into like Greek Philosophers but the general premise as you guess from the title is a lot of times like the obstacle itself is what you’re looking for and is what you’re striving for and remembering like we’re doing this because it’s hard. And I think that can be relaxing in a way where you’re not worrying about it. You know you’re not afraid of it. You’re realizing like no I’m here because it’s hard and because it’s going to be challenging and that’s why I signed up for this and you know you can embrace that a bit more and just realize that’s not something you know? Well, it’s hard to not be afraid of it. That’s something that you should embrace because it’s why you’re doing it. I always like to try to remember like just how cool these things are right like what an amazing thing that you’re doing. It’s incredible, right? And sometimes because we’re training so much or we’ve done it for a while we kind of forget. Yeah, this is awesome like and this is amazing and how cool is this course that I get to run here and make sure not to lose sight of that part of it and then the last thing I guess is to try to think back of all the the hard things you’ve done before and just really remember that. So whether that’s hard races or tough moments in races or difficult training sessions or just in training or that time you got out for that long run at 5 am on a Saturday when it was pouring rain and cold. Well think back on that and sometimes before a race, I’ll even recommend you know take like a board and just put some of that up. You know it can be like pictures of hard runs you’ve done on strava or pictures from past races. You know whatever it gives you inspiration. You can draw from just to remember you did a ton of really hard stuff before you got there and just try to really channel that and remember that so.

00:41.20
Alyssa
That’s yeah I mean you touched on you’ll get to see this at hurt. But the motto of hurt is we wouldn’t want it to be easy and one of my friends made me a bracelet because of my first hurt finish and on it says we wouldn’t want it to be easy and I have worn this bracelet since she gave it to me and I think 2017 and so I that’s what I always say is just we didn’t start this race because we thought it was guaranteed or because we thought that it wouldn’t come without challenges. We do I mean we do these silly things because they are challenging. And then the other piece is exactly what you just said honor your training is one of my favorite phrases where you’ve done the work and now it’s time to honor it to put your best foot forward and have fun. It is amazing that we get to do this stuff. We’re so lucky and I think just remembering that and bringing that joy and happiness. Is one of the best ways that you can make it through those dark moments and laugh in the face of our lows. Awesome. Well will, thank you so much for this Thank you for helping us wrap up the trail running season.

01:41.99
Will
Yeah, exactly.

01:52.79
Alyssa
I am going to guess that our our alpinists and our ice climbers are going yes, finally done with the trail running come back to the technical mountain sports. But it’s been such a pleasure to bring this series to you I hope that everyone has learned and truly trail running and building your aerobic base, all of this is super applicable to any mountain sport and makes us all better mountain athletes across the board. So thank you for listening to the Uphill Athlete podcast if you could rate, review and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform that helps us to reach more athletes. If you’d like to write to us please email coach@uphillathlete.com or visit uphillathlete.com. It’s not just one but a community we are uphill athlete.