Mental Training Tips for Altitude Trips

00:00.10
Alyssa
Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast our mission is to elevate and inspire all mountain athletes through education and celebration. My name is Alyssa Clark, and I will be your host today. We’re continuing with our educational series about altitude with our third episode. And an emphasis on mental training prior to reaching the mountain or race situation I’m joined today by return guest and director of coaching Chantelle Robitaille and our director of memberships and coach Alexa Hesman we learned of Chantelle’s background in altitude on our first. Episode but Alexa I’d love to hear a bit about your background and interest in mental training and your relationship with altitude.

00:44.80
Lex
Yeah, so I have a master’s in Sports Psychology. It’s always been really interesting to me. Basically, how the brain works and how our mood state changes when we’re in especially endurance events and how our psychological. Experience with that changes so I wanted to understand my clients better from psychological aspect because I always saw that as sort of a limiter. So that’s why I focused my career and my education on the psychological side of things. So really interested in that and then when I joined uphill Athlete. You know you add in this extra element of altitude. Which can change everything when it comes to psychology and mental training so that adds an extra interesting layer on top of it.

01:27.10
Alyssa
It definitely does and I’d like to get more into it with you Chantelle with your studies I was never sure whether to say of altitude on altitude in altitude. All of the things. How much did you focus? Yeah, all of the things.

01:46.70
Alyssa
How much did you look at the mental aspects of altitude?

01:52.24
Chantelle
Definitely I will say during my studies we did look at that aspect. Um and sort of I would say almost like 2 prongs of this aspect 1 aspect were the challenges faced by simply by. You know, ah decreased. Ability to recover decrease in performance decrease in sweep. How those things affect someone’s mood and things like that but also looking at when people were traveling forum for an expedition or for race. They’re also faced with. Ah, not only these physiological changes that are happening when they go to higher altitudes. So, a not so shameless plug check out are other episodes on this where particularly one where Martin Alyssa and I dive into physiological changes. Um, you know female athletes will experience some potentially some. Ah, perturbations to their menstrual cycle. Ah they’re going to be exposed to different foods, different cultures, different communications that elevates your stress level and on top of the physiological stress that you face that can make even simple things harder than they typically would be. Um, you have also the extra mental challenge for people spending longer periods at higher altitudes particularly expeditions and you have different types of weather and climates that people are experiencing, especially on those.

03:25.51
Chantelle
Very long climbs like if we’re looking at our um, very extreme climbers, right? like you’re going to extreme mental altitudes Eight Thousand meters um you’re going to have some weather delays. That’s lots of times sitting around in a camp that’s lots of time doubting your abilities. That’s lots of time not adapting maybe to the food and not sleeping so there’s all of those different challenges that are happening in conjunction with the physiological changes and as we learned from one of our previous episodes. 1 of the one of the aspects. That is important to think about when we’re going to higher altitudes is the fact that we have lower blood oxygenation. So that means there’s reduced blood supply going to the brain and whether or not you’re experiencing any type of degree of acute mountain sickness or something more serious. It’s going to affect that. Oxygen supply and so that can have an effect potentially on mood and that’s something that you know a lot of people aren’t necessarily aware of in the beginning so people might feel like they’re a little bit more irritated or agitated combined that with some sleep deprivation or dehydration. You get the picture of how this um can be a little bit of a snowball effect and so I think it’ll be great today to talk through some of those things that are happening how you can be prepared for those things and how you can work in advance to try to mitigate some of those things. Um and I want to talk about the other aspect of this that.

04:58.17
Chantelle
I also looked into through my studies and that was some really interesting studies that started to be done in the early two thousand s I would say in the western states so the rocky mountain states that ah there was some studies being done that showed that there were. Higher incidences of mental health issues for people living in the Rocky Mountain states based on altitude so they found that in some of these studies that there was an increased risk for depression anxiety and even suicidal thoughts some of these studies show that these. Types of symptoms can be happening at even one thousand meters so like 3 you know, just under five thousand feet which is you know, ah pretty interesting to note and then. That there were a few more studies that were done more around like five Thousand feet and fifteen hundred meters and this was um, theorized to be from the inflammatory and structural changes that happen in the brain when people are spending extended periods of time at altitude. So, we’re not talking even just you know people going to the death zone climbing Everest that are going to be experiencing these rather interesting changes in the brain, but they can happen at more moderate altitudes as well and so typically you know thinking about some of those things that may happen to people.

06:27.40
Chantelle
Um, or that people may experience when they’re either moving from a lower elevation and going to higher elevation or they’re spending you know, maybe they’re spending a vacation a longer vacation or a longer chunk of time at higher elevations. These are things that people should kind of be aware of and. Alert um, for and also thinking about like just in general from the physiological changes that happen. We know that sleep deprivation regardless of where we live is going to affect us. We know that um physical adaptations are going to be harder recovery because recovery is more challenging. And then also for people on expedition. The sort of social isolation or even the pressures that they feel to summit are also there so all of these things are going to play a big role in terms of um how we perform from a physical aspect but also. How we perform from a mental aspect. How our brain is being um, impacted by this how our ability to think clearly and adjust to changes and challenges are also going to be an impact so it’ll be awesome to have Alexa’s perspective on this as well from a. mental health um and mental preparation side of things.

07:48.89
Alyssa
Yeah, I mean I think that was ah, an amazing overview of just the different ways. The altitude affects us because I think there’s a little bit of an idea of like oh you can get to Altitude. That’s always good and I think it’s. Great to step back and realize like hey it could have actually an impact on your day-to-day life that is beyond just kind of that like I don’t feel like this’s good for a little bit and then I get these huge training boosts etc. Ah so I think that that is a really good note to take is that.

08:20.30
Lex
Um.

08:24.94
Alyssa
Hey, if you are feeling that your mental health is not in a place that maybe it should be um, you know you’re not alone in that and that maybe there are factors that you can change or control. So, I think that’s super good. Um, just knowledge to have out there. So. Alexa I’d love for you to start us off on and Chantelle mentioned a few of these but what are some mental challenges that athletes could face heading in it altitude that are you know, unique to being an altitude versus say a race at sea level or. Um, you know a hard training day or hard effort.

09:03.12
Lex
Yeah, good question so there are 2 main things that I consider when it comes to psychological aspects of preparing for altitude and that is cognitive function, and the other one is mood states, so your cognitive function is a little bit less. Ah, when we’re at altitude so we need to be aware of that and by cognitive function I mean how we’re thinking how quickly we’re thinking how fast we’re reacting all of that stuff so we need to be aware of that and that our thinking might just be a little different than it is at sea level especially like. Chantelle said when we’re above Eight Thousand meters you know that that’s when it gets even more of a consideration but still altitude of any sort can lead to cognitive function differences and then you have mood states like Chantelle mentioned to mood states. You know you’re going to be more irritable. A lot of the time we see a lot more anxiety. And then couple that with this innate fear that can come with these high altitude adventures or expeditions. So, you have this already sort of underlying fear then you add cognitive issues and then you have um.

10:16.60
Lex
And then you have anxiety on top of that. It’s like that’s coupled with that creates a mood state that changes rapidly so irritability anxiety um extreme fear irrational thoughts can be a big one. All of those things are things that we need to consider when we’re out there in altitude.

10:35.41
Alyssa
Yeah, Chantelle do you want to add anything that you’ve observed with athletes.

10:43.11
Chantelle
I think Alexa gave a good overview there I think 1 other thing to think about is that if someone is dealing with certain if a person is dealing with certain types of health conditions in their regular environment um being in this type of special environment the out. Altitude you know is 1 factor obviously but the environmental conditions in general are going to have a factor too, right? You could have altitude and adverse weather conditions and then layer onto that. Um someone being out of their routine away from their family and friends. Not sleeping very well. It can be very isolating people pay a lot of money for some of these expeditions, right? There’s a lot of pressure to summit and they’re sitting in the tent for like four or five days it’s boring um and they’re wondering if they’re going to be able to complete this mission and that’s really stressful right. Um, and so trying to manage that when you are experiencing some cognitive decline and sleep deprivation. You have a little bit of a perfect storm. So i’s really important to know these things in advance and to think about these things in advance so that you can. Learn some coping strategies to work through these and also thinking about you know your health in general if someone is dealing with a certain type of health condition where they live like if someone is dealing with a mood disorder or a sleep disorder or something like asthma.

12:14.28
Chantelle
These types of conditions and these are just a few. Um, these could be exacerbated in these new conditions because there are additional stressors, right? As someone’s body is exposed to Hypoxia and your body is trying to acclimatize so ah for someone with asthma. For example. Even just knowing that you have it and it’s in your brain that I’m probably going to suffer, or this is maybe going to be difficult. Um, that layer of stress is often there for someone who has asthma anyway when they’re encountering a new situation. So that’s going to be an additional stress. That’s going to be challenging to deal with and if you already are susceptible to ah mood disorders or sleep disorders. We do know that there’s some potential for an exacerbation of sleep problems and some mood issues at higher altitudes. So that’s it. Stressful and then you have so you have all these layers of different types of stresses and some of the stresses are good and some of the stresses are not, but your body doesn’t know the difference. So. It’s really important to be aware that all of these little things when you add them all together are not so little anymore. So, we have to pay attention to all of those things.

13:36.56
Alyssa
Definitely and hopefully one of you might know this sorry for the left field question. But how would someone go about finding out if their medication perhaps would conflict with going to altitude is that something like a general practitioner. Would you know or would that be more of a specialist who would say like hey if you’re taking X. Ah for depression or anxiety or asthma this could cause an issue at altitude.

14:05.98
Lex
Yeah, I’m hoping that their doctor would know that you know I think that that would be your first line of defense with that. So.

14:09.59
Alyssa
Okay.

14:14.17
Chantelle
But if you’re not sure or if you’re not feeling comfortable with if your you know, medical professional seems to just brush you off and doesn’t take this your question seriously or says oh yeah, just says you have no reason to worry about it. A second opinion might be a good idea, right? There are some great travel doctors out there and um, some of these travel doctors are able to do online consultation. So, I would say for anyone. That’s a little bit worried. For instance, I spoke to a woman the other day who. Um, is going on her very first high altitude expedition and she has sickle cell anemia, and her doctor had no idea if this would affect her and so it’s really important to try and get you know she was feeling nervous about it and reached out to us for some guidance. And I was able to point her in the direction of a travel doctor who has some experience in that area. So don’t be afraid if you’re worried about something in advance I think one of the big things will probably have a theme here today but controlling the controllable. It’s always worth that extra call or extra little bit of investigation.

15:31.46
Alyssa
Yeah, I think that makes whole sense and I just wanted to kind of push on that point because general doctor I mean there’s an um lot of amazing medical professionals out there but some of them are not you know as attuned to Say what a high altitude environment will be and so I think sometimes what fits for the general public doesn’t work as well and could become really problematic if you’re going into extreme environments. So, I think just making sure that you’re finding the resources that understand what you’re doing. And the stress that you’re putting on your body is super crucial rather than um, sometimes more of a general population doctor just may not know that or may not um, you know there’s so much to know having that specific focus is just a.

16:24.43
Alyssa
Maybe outside of the scope of what they do. So, we talk a lot about physical training I think I am definitely at fault of this of how we say one of the um, best ways to go into altitudes. You know be as fit as you can fitness cannot overcome. Everything with altitude. Absolutely but it is a great way to get into it. You know you want to be as prepared as possible. But why is mental training just as crucial for um, going into these situations?

16:56.71
Lex
Yeah, well so mental training is important when going into any situation and or any sort of expedition or adventure even at sea level and then you know you add an altitude you got to think about a few more things. So yeah, it’s incredibly important because you’re preparing yourself, you’re preparing your mind and that’s why interventions like Imagery are a really good one because you’re preparing yourself for that situation and prepping yourself as much as possible and when we talk about imagery.

17:31.50
Lex
In terms of altitude. We want to think of it a little bit differently and we want to try and put ourselves in a little bit of a closer situation in terms of in an altitude room or something like that or in a colder temperature so that we can properly imagine the circumstances.

17:48.59
Lex
You know this might not always be possible, but we want to try and mimic it as close as we possibly can to try and imagine all right. This is how it’s going to feel what am I going to do? How am I going to stay calm and then you switch over to self-talk and you practice that self-talk when you’re in that situation too. I am strong I am capable I’ve done the training, and you really talk yourself through that stuff So those are some of the key things that we want to think about when heading into altitude and when we’re adding in mental training to our physiological training. You know, add in that psychological training too. When you’re out on those long days training think of those mantras that you’re going to tell yourself when you’re out there climbing during your expedition that way when you go out there and that cognitive function is a little bit less than ideal you have it in the back your head you’re not scrambling for Okay, how am I How do I turn around myself talk now. You have it ready and practiced, you have that imagery ready in practice that you’ve been doing before you head out onto that expedition.

18:52.53
Alyssa
Yeah, I love that and also, I think with altitude often comes I think they’re a little bit hand in hand and element of danger where things can go Unexpectedly, there could be crevasses. There could be seracs you know there’s a lot of extra elements and just the nature of being in an altitude is it’s compromising and so it sounds like you know if you practice that imagery if you practice how you’re going to react to potentially stressful situations then you can. Help yourself not to react in it versus you know, acting as you’ve pictured yourself doing.

19:33.64
Lex
Yeah, and then once you’re out there. The mental training gets a little different. So yeah, I don’t know if we want to jump ahead to that or if you have some? ah.

19:41.18
Alyssa
Yeah, let’s go on Chantelle. Do you want to add anything or.

19:45.89
Chantelle
I think um, what you said Alyssa’s is really great because when we’re doing these types of things for many people. This might be a brand new unique challenge, right? that they’re encountering and so there are a lot of different things that are going to be new. So. Preparing yourself for all those elements the best you can obviously by you know, making sure your fitness is where it should be, making sure you have the skills to do what you’re doing, like being honest with yourself. Um, you know practice and practice in all those different conditions. So like Alexa was saying if you have the opportunity to go to spend some time doing some higher altitude hikes do that if you can get to an altitude room. Do it if you could do inter intermittent hypoxic training where you’re doing some different um intervals on a treadmill or on a bike. With the mask on and you’re getting to experience how it feels to be in those um those different oxygenated and less oxygenated environments the more prepared you are for how it’s going to feel so that there’s less of an ah panic response I think is also good. What’s it like to eat food on the run? What’s it like to deal with ropes and equipment when you have gloves or mittens on all of those things right? If you’re prepared, then when something happens then there’s a little bit more of ah your brain kind of knows what to do and when you.

21:17.47
Chantelle
Mental capacity is a little bit diminished. Um, if there is a little bit more if you could be a bit more reflexive or not having to go through a list of 20 scenarios. But you’ve already cut 3 things already there in your brain that you can pick from to do. It’s helpful and recognizing that fear is going to be there and we can react to fear, or we can respond to fear, and I think to your point Alyssa by doing this type of preparation. We can be prepared to respond to our fear rather than reacting to it and so we can keep our level of. As much of our level of power and control as we can in the situation and practicing that and putting ourselves into new situations and working through those situations gives us the confidence to work through that.

22:09.64
Alyssa
Absolutely and I can say from experience that there is a big difference between rock climbing at a hundred feet at sea level and eleven thousand feet there’s just a massive difference and. The physical ability that you need but also ah when you have um, for example, my husband I did a trip to Cham, and Chamonix and we were doing. You know some alpinism and rock climbing and all of that and when you add in like okay, preparing. Everything then taking up you know the gondola up and then you have to generally do some kind of a cat walk a glacier traverse you’re carrying all this gear. You might have a serac crossing or I’m sorry a bercheron crossing. There might be a serac above you. And then you’re rock climbing. It’s like all these moments where your so your ability to kind of keep it together and stay mentally sharp or test it in a way because you’re not just walking from your car on ah a nice dirt path to go boulder or go sport climbing for a little bit so there’s so many mental elements of safety like the weather etc. that are coming into it. Um I know for myself that I.

23:35.34
Alyssa
Really good for a few days and then I kind of reach this ability where it’s like I’m so like my stress level is too high and I have to like to decompress because it’s just it’s really taxing just to exist in that environment and then add on the physical challenge. You know, taking on something that.

23:53.83
Alyssa
You know it is pushing you in a different way like you’re already pushed and then that extra level can be um, a lot so I can say from experience that it definitely. You know there’s so many pieces of something that might be really straightforward. Ah when your kind of quote unquote on the ground. It is very different when you’re adding in um, all of those altitude pieces sorry for the for the little rant. Um, but when should athletes start this mental trading this um imagery and you know what? How much time should they devote within their training to specific mental training?

24:35.51
Lex
So, I think they should start right away I think when you start training physically for your expedition. You should start mental training and that’s you know you can start with setting goals and knowing that your goals might change when you’re out there and being flexible and adaptable with that. But setting Goals has been shown for altitude expeditions to be really beneficial when it comes to mentally preparing so set your goals make sure that they’re not. You know, I want to summit goals because that’s not necessarily up to you right? So that that can be the call of the Mountain. Ah, but process Goals. What am I going to do while I’m out there? What do I want to feel like how you know when do I want to eat do I Want to make sure I’m doing a good job with that. Do I Want to make sure I’m doing a good job of. Feeling strong legs wise or whatever it may be, but process goals rather than you know outcome goals. That’s what I would want for the expeditions. Um, so yeah, starting right away, right? When you start training, you set those goals then start switching over to imagery training. And add in that self-talk too practice. All those things.

25:56.65
Alyssa
Chantelle anything you want to add into that.

25:58.23
Chantelle
I think also thinking about like there are going to be certain aspects that you’re not going to be able to control. But there are certain ones that you can so really start to think about the things that you can control. So how can you make sure that you’re the best prepared you know and that goes from like of course. Do your training and be prepared but also like look into your health make sure that all you know that that you are healthy and in a good place in particular that your iron stores are in a good place so that you’ll be able to adapt well making sure that you don’t have any other underlying. Health conditions that you haven’t really been aware of what medications are you on talk to your doctor to figure out whether there might be some adjustments to make to your medications. Making sure that you know you are really well aware of all the different technical skills that you’re going to need for. Your expedition, your climb or your race and do a proper evaluation of where those are at and make sure that you have the you dedicate time to really bringing those skills up to the highest level that you can manage and also think about you. Personal limitations and risk tolerance and this is a good time to talk that through with whether it’s a guide that you’re going to be going with or a partner that you’re going to be going with talking those things through early talking about your fears with those partners early I think is also important so that you can.

27:32.92
Chantelle
It’s a little bit easier if you each are aware of each other’s strengths and challenges or strengths and limitations in advance of your aim. Whatever that might be, it’s not a surprise you know it’s not a good idea that when you get into you.

27:51.90
Chantelle
Tent with your partner that you tell them suddenly that you have an anxiety being in a small space. So, it’s good to try to get these things out in advance if you can and talk through those fears with them. So as your you know Alexa had some really great tips on. On imagery and self-talk, you can practice that every day as you’re going about your everyday business, and we all do this all the time right? It’s like you forget something and you say like oh how could I be so stupid. There’s a perfect opportunity to practice that in your everyday life. That’s a negative thought that’s not going to be helpful. What is going to be a more helpful thing to say to myself and start bringing this into your everyday practice so that it’s becoming more of a habit and it’s more of a reaction. You’re not having to think it through and that same goes for like all skills, right? We have to continually practice them until they’re really automatic. And I think that is also really helpful. Um, and also make sure that you are realistic about the goal that you’re putting yourself towards and that you’re realistic about your acclimatization schedule and strategy because a big part of being able to. Manage the mental challenges that you’re going to face are really closely tied to how well you’re going to be able to sleep eat and take care of yourself because if you don’t, you’re going to start experiencing some problems and then all of these small things.

29:21.46
Chantelle
Start to become like a snowball so really making sure that you have a realistic plan in mind and that you’re listening to your body and that you’re communicating your limitations to the people that you’re on you. Adventure with.

29:39.83
Alyssa
No, I love that I mean the partnership is so crucial I mean it’s literally life or death those partnerships that guide are they’re so key. Yes, totally and also you know.

29:49.28
Chantelle
An honest communication is key.

29:56.80
Alyssa
How you’re going to react in rescue situation making sure that your partner knows how to rescue you do you only have that knowledge is your gear distributed correctly like there’s all of those pieces to it. Um, but also.

30:14.81
Alyssa
Just practicing those skills and practicing. Yeah, the mental pieces of that. So, Alexis, you’ve mentioned a few specific pieces but like how say someone has a climb coming up in five to six months do you have like. Not that you don’t have to go through the full thing but how would you outline some mental preparation for that person?

30:43.18
Lex
Yeah, and that’s also super person specific too because you have to take it into consideration. Ah, whether they have anxiety or fear if they’re coming off of if they’re recovering from injury. All sorts of factors go into mental training that are very personal and highly individualized but from the perspective of just a very general outline. You know you want to set those goals at once. Um and you can work on them as you go for the first like little month or so. And then you know outline when we’re going to move on to imagery in the next two months after that and then self-talk as we get closer, and you still want to intermix all these things at the same time when while you’re working on imagery you want to add in that self-talk as well. But then you know, add in if we’re dealing with fear. We’re going to want to have some aspect that we’re conquering that fear or working towards like overcoming it if we have anxiety, we’re going to be working on breathing techniques if we’re coming off of an injury. We’re going to be dealing with calming down that nervous system and having. Decreasing that fear of re-injury or fear of illness seems to be a lot too. You know like oh I had haste last time I did this expedition now. What do I do as I head into this next one, I’m terrified of going through that again. So, we need to work on it.

32:08.72
Lex
What are we going to do in terms of decreasing that anxiety around those things as well? So, you have a lot of factors that go into that mental training I Wish it was like you know like you could write a training plan for somebody for yeah.

32:18.62
Alyssa
Um, yeah.

32:20.42
Chantelle
Here are your 5 steps.

32:21.98
Alyssa
I know I was like I feel like such a jerk that I just asked you the worst possible question to a coach ever. That’s like oh go through a trading plan for someone specifically for six months so you answered that perfectly depends on the person.

32:34.91
Lex
Um, yeah is okay, it honestly like I think that but there you bring up a good like situation with that that a lot of people do think mental training is this one size fits all.

32:39.71
Alyssa
And yeah, dumb do in a much nicer way.

32:40.61
Chantelle
The standard coach, the standard coach answer.

32:53.73
Lex
And it’s really not because our brains are all so different and so you know my fears might be different than Alysa’s fear, my anxiety is definitely different. You know all those things are going to be totally different and my history of training is going to be different. Um, so. You got take in that individual into consideration and so you know you can read a blog that says a 5 mental training tips and sure that’ll give you some good ideas. That’s great, but you’re going to have some gaps in who you are as an individual when conquering this expedition with mental training.

33:27.29
Alyssa
I love that Chantelle do you want to add anything on.

33:34.45
Chantelle
No, I think Alexa did a great job covering that I think it’s also it’s a little bit situational too if people are doing different things over their lifetime. There may be times were um.

33:39.43
Lex
Totally.

33:49.52
Chantelle
Like let’s say someone starts climbing and they’re in their twenty s and they are single, and they have a certain element level of comfort with risk because they’re they’ve got their challenges and whatever I think this is a common one that that we see and then they get a little bit older. And they’re still continuing to challenge themselves in different ways. But now they maybe are a different person a little bit. They now maybe have children they maybe now have a partner. They maybe now have some kind of injury that they’re dealing with that they didn’t have before. So, every single time. It’s also going to be different. It’s going to be situational. You know it could be they could be they as a person who are a little bit different. Um their tolerance for risk may change a little bit over time. Their um abilities may change. They scale up or down at different times. And also, if they’re going exposing themselves to different environments and different places in the world, different levels of technicality. It’s not always going to be the same so they could have you know a situation where everything perfectly worked and. It could be just that the stars all aligned and that and that was how it was the next time It’s might not be the same, but it doesn’t mean that like same goes as if you had a bad experience. It doesn’t mean that you’re going to have a bad experience the next time, but you have to really break down that experience to figure it out.

35:17.32
Chantelle
What are the things that I can do what are the most things I can do to mitigate as much as I can. Of course. There’s always going to be stuff that we don’t expect and that’s part of the fun, but we want to think about what are the things that we really can control and manage in advance so that we take away as many of those. Factors as we can and be realistic. You know, like just because you like if you were someone who did a lot of adventures and climbing in your twenty s and 30 s and then you did nothing for 20 years because you know in in the in the mountains for 20 years because you were working and. Raising kids and now you have your sixtieth birthday coming up and you want to climb mom blab you’re not that same 20 year old person that you were you know, physically mentally your life is and your life too is not the same so you have to really always evaluate who you are and where you’re at. Now as well.

36:15.30
Alyssa
Definitely I mean I think of the things I did before I had a steady partner, and you know got married and all of that and do you just it’s feel bad for parents because you’re like oh wow I just didn’t really think. I just went for it and so yeah, just assessment of risk tolerance is I think super critical I just this just occurred to me and again sorry for throwing the curve ball but I and again I’m at fault of doing this too. But I really often. Will say when I’m talking to a new client like how have you dealt with altitude in the past or like what’s your experience with Ben like are you good at altitude or are you bad at altitude in a way because some people tend to naturally fare a little bit better in altitude than others. But I think that. Pretty much set someone up for at once being like on batted altitude and so that’s running through their head. Yeah, it’s sorry Alexa was just like yes that’s kind of me and like I have always felt pretty good at altitude. So, I’m like oh yeah, I deal with altitude fine and that. Could not actually be that true. But I feel like there is that mental barrier that you’re already setting yourself up from that like very binary black and white while. It’s probably there. It is much gray. Um than that situation.

37:40.99
Lex
Yeah, absolutely yeah, I’ve had to really change myself talk around that because you know I had a potential hay situation at an ultra and um and I was terrified of like why.

37:42.17
Alyssa
Yeah, I’m curious but your both your thoughts are on that.

37:56.38
Lex
I cannot run an altitude at all like I suck I’m just physically physiologically not made for it, and I think that that was a narrative that I wrote myself into because since then I have been at that same altitude and done fine and. I Need to like sort of overcome that fear myself and work on myself talk of like it’s not that I suck at Altitude. It was the situation. It was all these factors that sort of combined to make that day just a really bad day for me and that doesn’t mean that I can’t make it the next time I’m at that. Altitude of a much better Experience. So, I look forward to doing that at Tor and it will go way better.

38:40.85
Alyssa
I believe it so until what do you think about that also with your coaching background.

38:45.54
Chantelle
Yeah, mean the brain is so powerful right? You know if if if if and we have so many stories that we might be telling ourselves and I think that’s why it’s really important to also get some proper advice because people are willing to spend. Tens of thousands of dollars right on an expedition or a trip or something like that. But then they book at getting a coach or even just having a proper medical consultation. You know, maybe a travel doctor is outside of your insurance. And the consultation with that travel doctor might be $300 what’s $300 in the grand scheme of things if you can get some good information about how to prepare yourself better or speaking with a. Ah, a mental performance coach you know 1 couple sessions with a mental performance coach or speaking with a coach that can make sure that can walk you through a lot of the things and we talk about controlling the controllable. You know, being really well prepared like taking away. As many of the small details that you have to think about, your brain has a little more ability for the important things because the brain is so powerful, and you know the more you can minimize those little ah circular things going around in your brain.

40:20.27
Chantelle
So that you have more ability for the important things. The better.

40:25.15
Alyssa
Yeah, I mean I see it all the time in a different example of people trying to cut nutrition. Ah well, they’ll like they won’t take the nutrition they need for a race in practice and it’s like but it’s not going to work. It’s like you put so much effort time Plane tickets.

40:30.92
Chantelle
8

40:43.10
Alyssa
Race entry fees all of that and then they try to cut on like the thing that’s keeping them moving forward and you’re like I and I feel for it. It’s expensive like these sports are really expensive and it’s unfortunate that they’re prohibitive in that regard. But there’s also things where it’s like. Wait But no, that’s not where we can compromise like that’s really important and yeah, it’s just always very interesting where people choose that line to fall for a lot of things and ah, totally agree. It’s like you’ve invested this much and then. You know the stumbling factor is something that actually was pretty doable to at least be aware of it. Yeah.

41:23.59
Chantelle
You know like I think those are when we think about like the whole cost of going on an adventure, I think all those aspects you know are that are important in terms of the preparation and particularly for people that are doing something that is. New or outside of their comfort zone I think it’s important to think about what can you do? What are the things you can do to give yourself the best chance of success and not skimp on that like you wouldn’t skimp on you know, um, a good quality sleeping bag to keep you warm at night or a tent.

42:02.10
Alyssa
I Feel like people will, but.

42:02.48
Chantelle
Why are you skimping out on well maybe some people will, but you know that look we think about the things that that we’re willing to maybe more willing to spend the money On. You know, it’s like easy to like to sign up for the race and absorb that cost and book the flight tickets and the Airbnb and everything else and. Prepare the crew and all of those things. Um, but if you do all of that work and you invest all that money. But you don’t train properly, or you don’t fuel yourself properly and you don’t get to the end of that race with a little bit more. Um. With managing your resources, a little bit differently and preparing yourself a little bit better. That’s really the key part of your of really key part of your success is your own physical and mental preparation.

42:52.69
Alyssa
Yeah, no, it is. It’s super crucial and it just I always say Also you know a lot of times you can grit through it I mean people humans are amazing. They can get through kind of unbelievable feats of physical and. Mental difficulty. But if you want to enjoy it like that’s the other piece, I’ll say this with clients at times for I like to do I believe that you could grit through X event. Yes, I do but I want you to enjoy the actual event, I don’t want you to just barely survive it. So how you know these are the things we need to do to make that an actual like I can’t say fun all the time because it’s not I don’t think the point of it is to be fun all the time but at least like overall you look back at it with like this was an incredible experience.

43:45.80
Chantelle
Yeah, you want to be more type 2 fun than type 3, right? Let’s keep it type 2 zone 2 type 2

43:51.34
Alyssa
Yeah, oh gosh. Yeah, I think I only had 1 experience in my life that was really type 3 fun and I still like that was the worst. Um, and.

44:03.64
Lex
Um, was it tor.

44:08.11
Alyssa
Ah, honestly, that’s to be fair as a racing experience. Tora was man still not that far off no is this really silly hill repeat thing did not want to do it did not enjoy it while I was doing it do not look fondly on it.

44:27.86
Alyssa
Retrospectively that’s what I think of as type 3 fun where it’s like didn’t want to do it didn’t enjoy it regret doing it. Yeah, type one is like pure enjoyment type 2 is like it was hard, but it was like so worth it and I’m so glad I, did it? Yeah type 3 is like none of those things are true.

44:32.67
Lex
Yeah, totally have a few of those.

44:44.47
Chantelle
Never again.

44:46.80
Lex
Are.

44:48.20
Alyssa
For again. Ah so we’ve kind of touched on this. But what are some of the fears that athletes face going into altitude and how might they deal with Alexa? You’ve spoken a bit about your own experiences and Chantelle has mentioned these as well. Yeah, but are we thinking about going into altitude? Yeah, there they are.

45:08.35
Lex
Oh man, there’s so much. There’s so much I mean Altitude sickness being one of the biggest ones you know death being a huge one injury being a huge one. Oh yeah, there’s just so much that can happen out there so there.

45:12.57
Chantelle
There’s so much.

45:28.38
Lex
There’s very rational fear. Yeah, bold Yeah, and so yeah to touch on sort of when we’re out there when we’re doing mental training when we’re out on the expedition. Yeah, we want to play into our imagery and our self-talk.

45:30.80
Chantelle
Um, it’s infinite like it’s infinite.

45:30.21
Alyssa
Yeah.

45:46.30
Lex
And ah in looking back at our goals but there’s 2 other things that we can really work on too and what’s been proven to work really well at altitude is association. So, there’s 2 different sort of sides of things. There’s association. There’s disassociation and both are helpful in mental training and during the endurance events. But. When you’re out at altitude association which is thinking about exactly what’s going on in the moment is really beneficial so thinking like all right? My right? foot is taking a step. My left foot is taking a step those sorts of things um looking around you thinking about? Okay I can feel my quad muscles I am so strong. Stuff like that being really in that moment can be really helpful in mitigating that fear and staying really present then you also have disassociation, and it has its role too in the altitude experience. Um, so disassociation is thinking. Ah you know so. Saying your favorite song or just thinking about the beach that you want to be on, or I like to think about like the burrito I’m going to have afterwards disassociating from where I am at that moment and that can help relieve some of that anxiety and tension too. But between the 2 when we are altitude, we want to focus a little bit more on association versus disassociation when we think of something like 100 miler disassociation is going to come a little bit more in in handy because we can’t physically say associated for.

47:20.32
Lex
24 25 26 hours straight, right? That would just be mentally exhausting, so we do need to play with that disassociation too.

47:28.98
Alyssa
Yeah, that’s super Helpful. How do we then taking that and yeah, the fear factor is infinite, and I think you broke it down beautifully. Also, the controllable and the uncontrollable and recognizing. How those shake out in the mountains, but chant tell like how do you help an athlete to deal with the stress of like you know, traveling to a big expedition. Um, often in very far away countries. This is yeah how do you help them navigate that.

47:54.85
Lex
Um.

48:06.25
Chantelle
I think Alexis touched on this a little bit too is that the fears are normal and there are going to be rational fears and irrational fears, right? So, learning to um, thinking about what those are in Advance. What are those silly as they might be. Put them somewhere and so I know for when I work with a lot of athletes. We do this in a few different ways. So, one We think about like what are this? What are the skills that we feel you are going to need for this adventure? Expedition Race Let’s write them all down and now let’s. Let’s um, what let’s rank them from us on a scale of 1 to 10? How strong. Do you think that skill is right now so that could be that could be robe skills that could be um, that could be nutrition that could be you know? ah. Being able to sleep and recover all those things so we rank them in advance where do you think you are right now and anything that is like a that they rank self-rank as an 8 or less. We talk it through and think about how can we improve that skill or how can we improve that thing. So, it’s kind of like and then we. We can build our training plan around that So the training plan will have elements of yes, the physical training but there will also be elements of improving skills and some of those are hands-on technical skills and some of those are mental training skills. You know, putting yourself through different scenarios practicing different.

49:39.20
Chantelle
Skills another one if we think about like the travel aspect same kind of thing. What are you afraid of writing them all down? It could be as small or as big as you think it is and we just have like a Google document and if it pops in your mind and you’re thinking about it and that thought. Pops up more than 2 times. It’s going on the list because now get it out of your head stop it from rattling around park it somewhere parks it somewhere so that we can like look at it and we can analyze it and decide like is that a rational fear or an irrational fear and if it’s a rational fear. What are some ways to tackle that either in advance or in the moment and so I think some people can make themselves crazy thinking about all of the different aspects or the reading a million blogs. Um, they’re reading a million blogs a million books or listening to all the podcasts and then like every day. They have something that they’re texting their coach about like I’m really worried about this I’m really worried that they might need to stop researching a little bit, right? Um, they might need to stop the madness a little bit and put a little bit more emphasis on things like what they’re doing and what’s important for them. And for others they might need to do a little bit of research like you know you’re worried about this like maybe there’s ah, a book you might read or a blog that you might be interested in or something like that or maybe they need a little bit of extra help from someone else.

51:12.19
Chantelle
So maybe if they have a lot of these fears and they find like that list of things that they’re parking their sort of like parking space is getting really jammed up. Maybe it’s a good idea to talk to someone about it. You know and there are some really great mental performance coaches that. That can do a really great job of that because sometimes they might just need an extra person. Yeah, we have one on our team, Alexa, for sure, and that could be helpful. Um, but just know that like there’s no um, judgment on these things right. Like how you feel is how you feel and no one gets to tell you can’t but it’s not a bad idea to like get that stuff out of your brain and then look at it from a more objective point of view and then look at the things that you could do something about should that you can do something about that. You should do something about it. Or that you shouldn’t spend too much time thinking about and try to manage some of the mental chatter that’s going on and maybe clouding things for you.

52:20.74
Alyssa
Yeah, I think that’s super helpful, and I think oftentimes just the nature of writing it down or addressing. It can be so relieving because it gets it out of the space in your head where you’re just ruminating on it and. Figure out worst case Scenarios where it’s like oh you say to someone and they go Oh but that doesn’t normally happen or like that would be great like that would be super rare to have happen or yeah, you should probably research that a little bit more.. That’s very Possible. So, I find often when I just verbalize it is a massive sense of relief of just. Okay I don’t have to either take this on a loan or be dwelling on it without an answer.

53:06.22
Chantelle
Yeah, I think how does that old saying go you know when you’re worried about something right? It’s ah, can you do something about it and if you know the question is can you do something about here’s my fear. Can you do something about it if the answer is yes? Don’t worry because you can do something about it. You can act. There’s no need to worry and then if you ask if your answer to the question is no, there’s nothing I can do about it. The answer is the same, right? Then don’t worry about it because there’s literally nothing you could do about it So like sometimes just like. Getting it out of there and then looking at it from an objective perspective can help maybe put it into perspective. But if you’re really struggling with that then um, you know, talk to your climbing partner about it and sometimes talking it through with someone kind of helps you realize like. Okay, now I’ve talked about it I just actually wanted to get it out of my brain and now I’m okay.

54:00.68
Alyssa
Yeah, I Also find some types acknowledging that something is scary actually makes it also way better where I’ve had a couple of times where I’ve been really scared and I’ve been fine, but I had a friend be like yeah, that’s your body’s natural instinct to prevent you from dying and I’m like oh yeah. Yeah, that’s true like this is scary. This is not without consequence and that’s okay and just yeah and you’re not, You’re not Weak. There’s not something wrong with you for being scared. No. That’s actually good. It means your body’s trying to keep you alive.

54:24.10
Chantelle
Mean yeah.

54:37.65
Chantelle
Um, yeah, yeah, valid feeling.

54:39.23
Alyssa
And so yeah, yeah, exactly and I think that ah really helped I was like oh yeah because I think sometimes well yeah, this is a huge topic but yes fear does not mean weakness. It does not mean you’re not capable. It’s yeah, we’ve gotten it. Ah.

54:55.15
Lex
Really your bring So your brain’s response to you know what’s happening around it. So, if you didn’t have that you would be in a lot of danger. You’d be if you didn’t have a fear response like.

54:57.21
Alyssa
Actually.

55:03.98
Alyssa
Yeah.

55:12.67

Lex
You could end up in some really bad situations.

55:13.72
Chantelle
Are.

55:16.29
Alyssa
Definitely and we’d actually gosh if you went back to our mountaineering episodes. We’ve had an episode on fear. So, if you care to dig back in the archives Alexis was on with Steve and myself. To talk about fear all right? Well, I think that’s about it. This has been awesome. Are there any other pieces you’d like to touch on before we sign off?

55:43.63
Lex
No, I think I Just want to say I think that mental training is a really big aspect of training for these expeditions or when you’re going to altitude so consider preparing yourself and consider getting a mental training Coach. So. Are thinking that out there it really is really.

56:02.44
Chantelle
And actually, it’s just good for life, right? like having flexible flexibility and adaptability and being able to you know, have positive self-talk and work through challenges in a.

56:05.93
Alyssa
50

56:21.52
Chantelle
In a calm way it is just good. It’s just a good life skill. So even if you think about you know you’re investing in this aspect of your training for a race or for an expedition or an experience. It’s actually going to help you in life just like.

56:24.89
Lex
Yeah.

56:41.30
Chantelle
Doing these hard things and going through these adventures makes us feel stronger, more capable, more independent, more competent. Ah more assertive maybe in regular life. You know I feel like ah. My Nanny used to always tell me that it costs you nothing to carry around in education and I feel That’s what these things are we are learning about ourselves we are learning about our limits and that’s why it’s exciting to put ourselves through these challenges and this investment in time. In ourselves it is more than getting to the finish line or getting to that summit. It’s really about life.

57:25.60
Alyssa
I love that lets say can you plug how people can do be a part of receive mental training through Apple athlete and through your services.

57:25.48
Lex
Absolutely.

57:37.35
Lex
Yeah, absolutely reach out to us for a consultation and we will connect and get to work on your mental performance.

57:49.72
Alyssa
There’s also a mental training in Memberships right now too right.

57:52.99
Lex
There is mental training and most shows right now we have a series going on for our group coaching level 3 membership and we went over adaptability and resilience a couple weeks ago and then last week we went over something fun. Um, but yeah, so we’re doing a mental training series this next week we actually are going through how to overcome slumps when we’re in slumps for training or during races. So. It’s been really fun. It’s really Interactive. We get to hear each other stories of. Personal experiences with each of the topics have been really great.

58:34.13
Chantelle
Just also want to mention that ah for our athletes who are working 1 on one with a coach or would like to work 1 on one with a coach this mental training series that’s happening in our group coaching is also available to our coached athletes. Um, we have Alexa who is a coach and is taken athletes still and she’s also available for 1 on 1 consultations even though she might be a little bit too humble to share about her superpowers. Sometimes.

59:08.70
Alyssa
Yeah, and all of those ah sessions are recorded. So even if you haven’t signed up you still want to sign up, you can go back and revisit those lectures and discussions on your own time. And join in on the ones that are left.

59:23.69
Lex
Yep, that’s the awesome part of memberships and being part of the community within coaching is that all these things are recorded so

59:31.70
Alyssa
Awesome!? Well, thank you both and thank you audience for listening to the Uphill athlete podcast if you could rate review subscribe on your favorite podcast platform that helps us to help more athletes. It’s not just one but a community we are uphill athlete.