Zach: What I found with some of these, like really flat, monotonous hundred milers, is that it wears on you. So you have to be so good at not just years, sometimes decades plus of like really kind of learning to stay excited or finding ways to stay excited as you were originally to be able to really go to that last bit you have on race day and get that result you’re looking for.

Alyssa: Hi everyone. Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. My name is Alyssa Clark and I will be your host today. I am very excited to bring on a legend of the ultra running sport. He has been running ultra since 2010. He is a podcast host, a coach. I think a name is just synonymous with our community and with sports.
So Zach Bitter, thanks so much for being on.

Zach: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Alyssa. I’m looking forward to chatting.

Alyssa: Yeah. Well first off, I didn’t even say what you’ve done in the sport, from a results spot because you are, I mean, such a legend in just what you’ve given to the community from I think an education from just all of the pieces. But you are currently the hundred mile American record holder with a time of 11 hours, 19 minutes and 13 seconds.
I have to say the time because it’s absolutely insane. The current 12 hour American record holder with just shy of 105 miles, you’ve been a four time national champion on the San Diego, 100 Javelina, 100 ice age 50 miler, and also used to be the world record holder, winner for the a hundred mile treadmill effort, which is insane to me. I love to get into that more as someone who spent a lot of time on treadmills too. But, um, yeah, Zach. What led you into this kind of crazy world of ultra running? ’cause you started in 2010, which is on somewhat of the early side of the sport, but what got you here?

Zach: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. I think of my like evolution through running as being maybe a little bit more gradual than what you would expect from someone who’s made a profession out of it. Uh, whereas like, you know, I ran in high school and college, but I was never putting up times in some of the more Olympic distance stuff to ever really think that there was a path forward there. So I sort of learned to run for the sake of running where it was like, is this a hobby that I’m willing to invest a couple hours a day in on a regular basis while I’m still working and, you know, chasing my career with at the time was teaching. You know, the answer then was yes, I was curious, interested, motivated to do those days where you wake up at four 30 in the morning, run a couple hours, then go into work and then maybe train again after or something like that. Um, and that sort of led me to just exploring like what it was about running that I really enjoyed. And you know, when I started just going through like the Rolodex of different kind of workouts and the styles and structures of them and maybe where their inputs are when it came to like, well, which ones do you actually really look forward to where you’re just like, you see that schedule and you’re like that, I can’t wait to do that one. It was, it was usually the long run.
So, uh, that probably made me a little bit more susceptible to finding the ultra world and um, through some of the stuff we were chatting about before, before the podcast in terms of the storytelling aspect of the sport. You know, you see some of these stories and you kind of get excited, like, oh, I wonder what that would be like. So I was actually just looking for a race to do one, one summer, and I found this 50 miler in, in Wisconsin where I was living at the time, and it was like, well, maybe I’ll just try that and see what happens. And my, my thought process there, I think it was like 24 at the time, 23 or 24, and I was just like looking at it like, okay, well I’ll do this just to see what it’s like and then I probably won’t run another one until I’m in my thirties is my mindset. Because like at that time it was like, you know, ultra running is kind of what you do. Maybe after you sort of exhausted your potential in some of the shorter distance stuff. And I did it. I really fell in love with that experience to the degree where that same race, the following year, I did it. And then I sort of knew, looking back, I was like, okay, I’m gonna do ultra running now. Going forward, that’s gonna be the main focus. Um, if I jump into things that are shorter than that, it’ll be for training purposes versus I’m gonna spend half a year speaking for this marathon or something like that. And, um, that opened my eyes to the world of ultra running, but I was still super ignorant to it. Like, I didn’t know about anything really other than the trail side for the most part. As I sort of started doing more races and learning more, I kind of learned about like, okay, well there’s like timed events, there’s track ultras, there’s Mountain Ultras, there’s all sorts of different stuff. And that sort of led me to where I probably spent most of my time focusing more on these runnable a hundred Mile things and like races, like the Desert Solstice, track Invitational. And um, the funny thing about that is I did Desert Solstice the first time in 2013, and that’s where I broke the American record for a hundred miles the first time. I didn’t even know there was a 12 hour event or a 12 hour world record. So Nick Curry, who was more hands on with Ara Vipa back then, was out there like ODing that event, and he told me like just before mile 90 about the 12 hour world record. So it was like I learned 90 miles into that race that that was actually another within the event essentially that I was in. And yeah. Yeah, you kind of learn with everybody else, I guess for the most part with that sort of stuff. And, and that, that kind of got me hooked on just, okay. There’s a, there’s actually like an element here of specificity within, you know, training. You know, living in Wisconsin I did a lot more road running and flat stuff than I did mountain running, stuff like that. So being able to do events that maybe cater to my training a little more specifically was kind of eye catching. And then having a really positive first experience I think really set me up to be able to tolerate maybe the, the variance in, in mentality about being on a 400 meter track for an ultra marathon versus out on the trails in more scenic areas.

Alyssa: Yes.
I wanted to, just for our listeners who might not be aware of what Desert Solstice is, it’s a, well, I, I assume there’s a number, I mean, known for being 24 hours is kind of the actual event, and then there’s kind of records that can be set within it. Is that correct?

Zach: Yeah, the way I usually look at it is like, it’s a 24 hour event, but within that, the real framework of Desert Solstice is we want to create an avenue where people can chase records. So whether that’s the 24 hour or the 12 hour, a hundred miles, a hundred K, even 50 k, and then age group too. So any given year that, uh, that solstice ends up having a pretty good field, you’re gonna see a variety of that where you might see someone chasing the, you know, the 50 to 55-year-old, uh, a hundred K world best or something like that. Uh, or you might see someone trying to hit their, their, the American record in the 24 hour, or what I’ve done mostly at those events to date would be chasing a fast a hundred mile time. And yeah, you can do it. Lot within it and, and it’s just set up with that kind of record chasing mindset in place.

Alyssa: Love it. Yeah. And so this is based on a track, uh, it’s a high school track.

Zach: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: Yeah. A high school track in Arizona in early December.

Zach: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: So that it’s good temperatures. And there you guys are, there’s tents set ups. So you have paid as much as you want, and don’t have to carry anything. So these are set up to run fast. But on the other hand, you are running around a track for that period of time. So I can tell you I’ve done, attempted, not even done one timed loop event. Um, oh actually I was trying to do a hundred miles. It was around a one-ish mile loop and I was losing my mind and stopped at 50 k. I was just looking up the mountains ’cause it’s based in, uh, California was like, I just wanna be up there mentally.
What are some of the elements that you lean on to work on the monotony and. These are great because we have a lot of athletes who are training to climb Everest, Denali, et cetera, and they live in New York City. They live in Florida, and so they’re on a StairMaster or they’re running stairs in their stairwell on a treadmill. And I always say that if you can mentally deal with, say, a four hour or five hour session on a treadmill or running up and down your stairs, you’re gonna do great. And I feel like some of that translates a bit from what you are able to do on a track or a treadmill. So how, yeah. What are some of the mental pieces that you bring into these events?

Zach: Yeah, it’s a great question. The way I usually describe this is you gain a huge advantage logistically when you get on a short loop course like this, because like you said, you don’t have to worry about packs. You don’t have to worry about whether it ‘s gonna feel weird to carry a bottle because you’re getting access to that basically whenever you want it.
You don’t even have to really worry about mistakes with that either, because like if my crew hands me the wrong thing or forgets to hand me something. there back in less than two minutes. So it’s so easy to

Alyssa: Good point.

Zach: To relieve that mental stress of thinking about things like, okay, do I have everything in line? What am I forgetting? You can, you can almost, you can almost like to be a little more lazy on that side of things, but you also have to tolerate the reality that once you’ve been out there for a couple minutes, you’ve seen the entire course. And that’s not changing. So how do I kind of manage that world and the way I us, the, the way I’ve kind of learned to maybe do it is, uh, I got past the sort of like port where you’re like, kind of ignorance is bliss when you do the first couple where you just really don’t know, like, okay, how bad could this get? And you sort of lean on that a little bit in the early stages too, oh, and now I know what I’m getting into and I have to learn how to manage these situations better. And some of that just comes down to how do you train the mind while you’re training the body? So. A characteristic of ultra marathon running that’s not unique to the track is you’re just not really going to have access to that full timeframe that your mind is gonna have to be on and focused on training. You’re gonna be doing it chunks. So I kind of step back and think like, well where, where do we practice that in real life? where I kind of found works well for people is most people have a relatively busy life. So you’re getting like kind of projects and you’re getting like things you have to do that are multi-step, that it’s, it’s rare that you’re just gonna be like, everything is just kind of like one thing and then another thing and then another thing that gets presented to you one at a time. It’s usually okay if I wanna get this done, these are all the components that go into it. And once you sort of have that scaffolding in place, then it becomes like, alright, how do I focus my mind where I put the end point in the back of my head so I’m not getting distracted and overwhelmed by it mentally? Because it’s grand. But I am able to recognize, okay, I have to do this first before I can even worry about step two, step three, step four. So whether that be like a work project that’s gonna take you two weeks to do that you inevitably scaffold out and kind of have a framework of like the order of what you’re gonna do things. connecting that the same way can be really powerful and sort of training your brain to kind of intuitively do that on race day. Because the more I think you can kind of get your mind to just do that naturally versus having to waste a bunch of mental energy, like coming up with it while you’re out there or finding motivations and things to do while you’re out there, the better off you’re going to be. And, and some of it just takes a little bit of experience too, where you sort of recognize spots that kind of stand out where, you know, say like. Typically, I’m not gonna probably do much more than say a 30 mile long run on a track leading into a race like this. So inevitably when I get beyond that point on race day, you’re sort of at that spot where it’s like, alright, I’m kind of heading into relatively unknown territory where my only exposure points to this historically have been other races, and I know that’s gonna be a challenging spot.
So going into it, just like reminding myself like, this is where my brain is gonna start planting those seeds of doubts. And I think knowledge is power with that. If you know that’s gonna be there, you’re less likely to kind of be susceptible to letting your mind get too far ahead of itself and start thinking about like, how am I ever gonna do this for 70 more miles, which is a recipe for disaster. Um, other things are just like, like small strategies. Like I’ll go into a race with. An idea of what I want is kind of like if everything goes great, this is probably what time I’m going to target and here’s the minimum acceptable time here where it’s still worth being here and doing this race. You sort of can build like a split target within that. And I find like once you have that framework, you’re sort of working within that, that kind of like, this is as slow as I can go, this is as fast as I should be going. And you wanna kind of spot check that to make sure you’re landing in there. But you also wanna be mindful of not looking at the lap counter every time.
’cause there’s gonna be a level of mental fatigue that comes from just looking at your, the lap split every lap. where I think this really kind of separates itself and makes it a bit of a uniqueness on these type of events is if I see like one lap split fall out, like on the slow end, I’m sort of presented with this situation where, well, nothing changed really, like the course didn’t get more difficult. Um, so I must be doing something wrong or I need to make a change. and pretty immediately too. So I think the thing you wanna really look forward to is your brain is gonna spiral into that negative space very, very quickly. And, you know, a matter of a couple laps can, can kind of hit you the same way as the, the fatigue that would lead to like a dropout, uh, in a little bit of a longer stretch of time out when you’re in the trails and you’re maybe you don’t have as much data available to you as to, or as frequent of data available to you as to whether you’re doing good, bad or otherwise. I think I’m really learning to kind of recenter with that. So like things that I’ve used in the past were like, all right, if I hit a spot, like a rough patch like that, I need to really get good at just zooming in and focusing on like, let’s just get two more laps in range and then kind of punt the decision of whether I keep going for whatever target or stay in the race. A little bit and just kind of give myself a few more opportunities because it’s just like the trails with this where you’re gonna hit those low points and it’s really about like being patient waiting for you to come outta that, because then you might feel infinitely better all of a sudden, and then all of a sudden you’re just like cruising and time passes fast and you can kind of get into a bit of a flow. So really just kind of like learning how those present themselves on these more monotonous courses is the big mental piece to the puzzle there. And you gotta be comfortable with failure too. Like, I’ve had races in the past where I’ve dropped out early and in the moment I’m like, I’m physically breaking down.
It’s just not my day to day. I’m gonna call it and circle the wagons and try again. And then like with further reflection, I realized, no, I just failed to kind of clear that mental hurdle at that time and get to the part where it started feeling good again. And I. You know, you do enough of ’em and you kinda get to a point where you sort of know where those typically pop up, how they present themselves, and you just get better at kind of fighting the, the devil on your shoulder, I guess is, is the way to put it.

Alyssa: Oh, that was amazing. I especially love using tasks from you every day because it is very similar to mountaineering, sports, et cetera. I mean, you can’t do a 15 hour training day to prepare for your 15 hour summit push. Um, for the most part. I mean, obviously you can do back to back, et cetera, but. I just, I don’t, well, I mean this is probably what was playing in my head also when I was doing the loop course is the ease at which you can step away from a track.
I mean, if you are out on a trail, it is incredibly, sometimes hard to extract yourself or be extracted from an aid station from a very remote area. And also there like Western states get run once a year. It’s very hard to get into, um, you know, you don’t have like five Western states opportunities per year to do that race. How does that, in some ways, ease DNFing, which sounds. Absolutely horrible in many ways of just like, well, I’m, as you said, I’m having that rough patch. Oh, I just needed to push through it. How did you think that factors into your decision making? Because, I mean, these are very hard efforts and so if you’re going after a world record or an American record, you only get so many shots at that. Like how do you balance that ease of, of leaving versus, Hey, I’m gonna stick it out and, and get through it.

Zach: Yeah, that’s a great question. You know what, what’s worked well for me here is I’ll go into a race just taking a really good accounting of what I did to get there. So like, that might be just like kind of reviewing some of the, kind of the, the stuff where it’s like you get presented, like with a, a stretch of training, like maybe closer to the race where you’re out on the weekends putting in multiple hours on back to back days. It’s like, that’s a, that’s a sacrifice you’re making, you’re doing that versus something else. And start piling those up and you’re sort of more, you get more and more invested in the race itself then, because you start looking at it as less of a, okay, um, I’m gonna, you know, or, or I, I’m, I’m just sacrificing this one race and it’s more like I’m sacrificing the opportunity that I created for myself with all of those hours that I put into training. So I think the real powerful lever here is minimizing what’s in front of you so it doesn’t feel overwhelming. ’cause when you start feeling overwhelmed and mentally, that’s when you’re more ripe to pull the cord. And DNF and I mean, I’ve had these, like even in my best races, like when I ran 1119 for a hundred miles, there was a spot during that race where. I remember thinking to myself, I don’t think I have it today. I don’t think the world record is in, in, in the cards here. I’ve already run 1140, so is it like, you know, what do I do out here if it’s not for, uh, you know, chasing that record? And part of me was just, I think it was like things lined up well for me that day where it was like, that was actually technically supposed to be a training race for a bigger race later that year. So I sort of had some incentive to stay out there. I was like, okay, well I, I could at least get a 12 hour long run in here, so I wasn’t gonna maybe pull the court quite as quickly as if it was like, well, I can, I can turn things around and jump in another race in six weeks and try again. So since I sort of had a little bit of that, I caught myself and like, look back at that I just described where it’s like, well you did a ton of training to get here. And I was actually like, I was in a real unique spot too. It was at the Olympic training facility in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So it’s this 443 meter indoor track where it’s totally climate controlled. At the time it wasn’t a recurring event, so I was like, I may never get an environment this pristine where literally everything is controlled, even the weather, even the light. And so I told myself, well, you know, that it, it seems like a big sacrifice to just call it right now. So I gave myself like a couple miles to kind of get back on track and then I did. And it was like, it started to like really in a positive direction from there. And, you know, so I was like one decision away from either dropping out or potentially just saying, okay, I’m just gonna like to concede the pace target and probably still run a pretty respectful hundred mile time, but nowhere near what I ended up running. So yeah, I think it’s just like making sure you go into the race with enough motivation to make it, like dropping out, feeling more uncomfortable than the discomfort you’re gonna be presented with at any given moment. But you know, it, it is an interesting kind of path because like those, those, that situation for me all came with like experiences and things like that where, you know, I had to learn to kind of look at training as a mental training aspect and actually do the work of like, accounting for that. So it was easy to think of those things when those, those negatives crept in versus just not thinking about any of it. And then going in and having to do that problem solving during the race itself, versus having ’em kind of readily available to me.

Alyssa: Oh, I think that makes so much sense. And yeah, it’s just, it’s so, so fascinating to talk to you being in, like we were saying beforehand, that the world of ultra running, it’s almost a, a misnomer to call all of it like the sea. I mean, it’s running, but there’s such different challenges to each aspect of it. From trail running to timed events to more road ultras, flatter trail ultras. You know, there’s just such a range of it. So it’s really fascinating to hear your perspective and just the world that I’ve dipped my toes less into, but always, I don’t know, it’s always out there where I’m like, one day I’ll try to run a really fast hundred. We’ll see. Um, but when it comes to. Your training, what do you focus on? Heart rate, RPE, especially because pace does really matter for your events much more. I would say yes, pace matters in the mounds, but it’s like it’s so variable. There’s a lot of factors that come into it. So how do you play with those pieces during your own training?

Zach: Yeah. I love this question ’cause I love data. So, uh, access to it is just a fun piece to the, the process for me. Uh, but for, for like practical purposes, it’s like, yeah, I, you need a strategy that is going to put you in a position to be successful. So I rely really heavily on the rate of perceived exertion for the vast majority of my training, like if I’m gonna do something like a short interval session, it’s time-based and adds a specific intensity.
So I look at the intensity as fixed. Whether I’m like just getting into speed work and maybe a little slower than average, or I’m at the end of speed work and I’m as fit as I’ve ever been in that side of things, those workouts are gonna feel the same, I might just be quicker at it. So that makes pace a moving target and it makes distance, a moving target.
Time stays fixed. Intensity stays fixed. I deviate from that when it comes to race day specific training, so for like a hundred miler, that’s gonna be like the long run. I’m gonna do that at a prescribed pace for the most part, at least near the end when I’m kind of really dialing in what I wanna kind of hit from a pace standpoint during the race itself, because I have to be able to produce that pace and and tease out whether it’s realistic or not.
So there’s those workouts where I might go out for like a three hour long run on a track and say like, okay, I’m gonna try to average between six 30 and 6 45 minute per mile pace. And I’m definitely trying to hit those splits. And then afterwards I’m sort of reversing that viewpoint and now I’m looking at things like. Heart rate and intensity and these other factors as evidence as to whether where I’m at within that PACE framework or how aggressive is this? How conservative is this? Or you know, where does that fall on the risk factor of whether I apply those paces on race day. Um, versus the other way around where if I do say a workout that’s based on intensity and time, I might look at that in a post-workout reflection and check out things like heart rate and see like, okay, is that moving along with pace at this intensity? or, or with heart rate. I guess it would be more like a little bit more nuance in there where it’s like if I start noticing a specific heart rate, if I’m recovering quicker in between intervals or something like that, that might be a sign. Like I can tighten the recovery between sessions or between intervals or things like that. But yeah, I think, I think perceived effort’s just gonna be the more reliable one when you’re out there actually executing the workout. Especially if you sort of, I. Been in running as long as I have and you’ve really practiced, kind of learned what it feels like to do a short interval, what it feels like to do a long interval, uh, what it feels like to run kind of what I would call like a base intensity or like the high end of zone two, and these different kind of like training intensity inputs. And then you’re sort of relying on your intuition of learning what those feel like over the years to really kind of then produce data that will suggest whether your, your pace is, is in a good spot for that given intensity before applying a different training input or something like that.

Alyssa: I am so glad that you said RPEI because that’s what we, no, it’s, that’s what my coach uses. That’s what we primarily use at Uphill because it truly, I mean, I have said this so many times, but what happens if your watch dies or it gets thrown off a cliff by Sasquatches or something, you know, along those lines and you have not learned what those efforts feel like from your own body.
Like I just think it’s so important and I’m so glad that that is backed by someone with your experience and, um. Yeah, I think rpe, it, it honestly is probably the most challenging in many ways to learn as a newer athlete, but it’s so key for understanding how you are approaching your race, approaching training, approaching intervals, because we can get so set on the idea of like, well, five months ago I ran this pace, so I should be able to run this pace again.
It’s like, well, you, there’s so much that has happened in those five months that can determine if that is possible for you right now or not.

Zach: Yeah, and I mean, you’re, you’re spot on with that. It’s like RPE I think is the best. The best guide, but you do have to learn it. Like you have to learn what that feels like and that takes time and that’s gonna take some measurements or some, some guides for people to do that. So what I like to do with like some of my coaching clients and then myself at times too, just to kind of like get a look in is they’ll do like a field test that will be done at a certain intensity and or it’ll just be like, it’ll be a timeframe and then like as long as you’re able to like relatively evenly run it where you’re not like getting up so fast where you kind of blow up within the workout or go up so slow that you’re just like screaming fast at the end and create like an imbalance there can sort of pull data for the short term targets too. So sometimes what I’ll do is like, we’ll do a field test early on so someone can, so we can generate a pace that they’re producing at that intensity and then we might do some workouts based on that pace that might be like, alright, we’re gonna do, like, you’re gonna go to a track and run, um, you know, repeats at this, at this, at this pace, uh, or it wouldn’t have to be on track. You could do, now that we’ve got these awesome GPX watches and things like that, we can get that data, anywhere. Um, and then use that as a way to kind of continue to learn what that feels like and how it kind of trends over the course of a specific type of workout. And, you know, you sort of have a little bit of a window of time where. Before we start applying the stressor, we’re not gonna see adaptations from the physiological level like right away. Like you’re not gonna go out and do a short interval session and then automatically like, all right, the response has happened and now you’re, you’re automatically faster, it’s gonna take a little bit of time. So we can spend like say 2, 3, 4, maybe even five or six weeks, kind of targeting a pace for something like a short interval session. And as long as the communication is there and we’re kind of looking at the data and just saying, okay, well is the intensity easing off? the heart rate data starting to produce lower numbers at these same paces?
And then decide like, okay, is it time to shift that pace down now and kind of recalibrate that? So usually, you know, after like once one round or a few rounds of speed work, you know, people get pretty intuitive with what it feels like. And then we can kind of start really leaning on that as their primary guide and kind of remove that crutch of things like pace.
Alyssa: I love that. Yeah, I think so much about it. Pace and heart rate. They’re wonderful pieces and I feel like they all support each other, but with newer athletes, I, I think of heart rate as kind of a training wheel where it’s like, okay, we’re gonna put some constraints on these rps, these zones, et cetera, because you are learning what that means.
And then, okay, I’ll have them do a workout or two where I’m like, let’s not look at our watch. Let’s just focus on what rp and then let’s go back and look at that data and be like, oh, wow, that was actually quite a bit higher, quite a bit lower. Like, okay, let’s just kind of start learning these calibrations.
Uh, but I think it’s so fun to have, rather than just be really set in, there’s one way to do this. And that’s the only way to have those three in conversation with each other. And I mean, you can add weight in the weight room, you know, et cetera. Like, it doesn’t just have to be paced. There’s a, there’s kind of these other variables, but I think it’s so fun too.
Be able to, to lean on different aspects depending on what you’re trying to produce and learn.

Zach: Yeah, it, it, it is fun. I think I look at all these things as valuable tools that when you can combine them all, especially if they are all kind of pointing in the same direction, that’s just additional confirmation that you’re heading in the right direction. Because with a lot of this, it’s like, it’s not about absolute precision where like, oh, if you’re one second per mile off, then the workout’s trash.
It’s like, you know, there’s a range in here that’s gonna get what we’re looking for. And then like, learning to kind of operate in that range as best as possible is gonna kind of put us in a, put us in the right direction and really start to learn some of these things.

Alyssa: Absolutely.
So I. Something that, um, I was lucky enough to be on your podcast a few weeks ago, and I wanted to ask you about this because it really stuck in my head that you mentioned that you did the San Diego 100, which is not the most mountainous a hundred miler, but it is, it’s punchy, it’s climbing. I think they’ve changed the course a couple times, but above that, I think 15,000 feet of climbing, um, for a hundred milers.
So a fair amount more than a track. Um, and you said that, that you used San Diego 100 as, um, kind of one of the pieces that then led you to the 11 hour, a hundred miler. I’d love to hear about what went into that decision making of doing San Diego 100, how you felt more of that mountainous training translated, um, and just yeah, a bit about that journey.

Zach: Yeah, I really like that for me anyway, like I, I always think about this through the lens of like respect for like pro marathon runners because they’ve sort of like put themselves in a position a lot of times where it’s like not a lot you can change the courses are all gonna be relatively the same.
So you have to be so good at not just years, sometimes decade plus of like really kind of learning to stay excited or finding ways to stay excited as you were originally to be able to really go to that last bit you have on race day and get that result you’re looking for. Because what I found with some of these like really flat monotonous a hundred milers is that it wears on you.
When I got to a point where I think it was in 2018, I did Desert Solstice and I just like, I had some, some issues kind of that were maybe a little bit independent of just not really wanting to be there as much as I had in the past. But there was definitely one post-reflection, a little bit of that where it’s like I just didn’t want it as badly, um, as I had in the past at that race.
And I think some of that was just kind of the fatigue of going into multiple training blocks with that exact same focus of, okay, I’m gonna end up on a 400 meter track and I’m gonna see how fast I can run or I’m gonna target this pace. And that kind of wears on you in terms of like an enjoyment factor, an ability to really see progress in training because you sort of down quite a bit how much movement you’re gonna see in some of these training inputs.
So it’s a lot of rinse and repeat and then hoping for the best on race day. So I needed a mental break. I needed to just like, alright, I love running still. I still love ultra Marathon running. I’m just not as excited about hopping on a track and running a hundred miles right now. And I decided, okay, well San Diego a hundred was in June and maybe I’ll spend the first half of 2019 using that as the primary training target. So that allowed me to kind of switch up the train I was training on, I was living in Phoenix, Arizona at the time, so I was just blessed with options where, you know, within an hour drive of Phoenix you can get on just about anything and just kind of reset my mind in terms of like what an experience was like going out for a long run on the weekend, uh, where maybe I’m running up Mount Ward instead of around a track at at Central High School or something like that. and then there’s also, I think the physical side of it too, where if you get into sort of a routine of just running flat all the time, I. It’s very uniform. There’s not a lot of variance in there. Whereas when you’re training for these trail races, you get exposed to so many different angles and so much variety from the terrain too that I think it just builds probably a healthier physical side of things. So doing the san the, the training for San Diego, like in the back of my mind, my, the, my, the only kind of like concern I had with that decision was was like, okay, well is this gonna set me back in the sense that I’m gonna kind of build myself into a different type of runner and then it’s gonna take me a lot longer to kind of get back to the flats. So I had to kind of trust that that wasn’t gonna be the case and it was actually gonna be something that maybe felt like a step back in the short term, but ultimately be a big step forward. And then doing that race, finishing it and having a good experience there when I recovered from it and then kind of circled back towards, okay, I’m gonna target some flat road or track stuff the second half of this year. I felt totally refreshed mentally where it was like, okay, I’m really excited now to go and do some real flat monotonous running. And I noticed pretty quickly there where it’s like, okay, my body just feels a little more durable. Like I don’t feel like I’m getting as many like, uh, like just aches and pains or limiters in terms of imbalances and things like that because I just spent the last half year running on steeper stuff, more technical stuff, very terrain and things like that.
So I probably like backended some like strength work with some of that stuff with, uh, with just the running training and things like that. So I sort of realized after that it was like, alright, there’s a physical component here that’s probably beneficial, similar to like. When we look at developmental stages of kids, like kids that have long careers or long interest in a specific sport in their adulthood, oftentimes they’re doing a variety of different sports in their youth.
So they’re kind of creating this like structure that’s just more tolerant, more durable. So in my mind after that it was like, okay, there’s like a, this mental relief or this mental change that creates excitement or almost like if I remove it, I’m gonna miss it and then I’m gonna want it. Versus like feeling like it’s always just gonna be there and then lose some of that kind of glow. And then, yeah, the physical side of it too, just kind of creates a different experience for your body to be able to absorb and then kind of clear up maybe some of those things that get neglected when you’re just running on flat canal pads and tracks.

Alyssa: Oh, I love that. Yeah I mean even though I think that we talked about this, I, by the time I get to fall, I’m kind of excited to do something flatter. ’cause I’ve spent the summer in the mountains, which I love. But it is really fun to have that different stimulus to work on. Oftentimes, not weaknesses, but like areas that we don’t spend as much time on.
So see like, hey, like there’s just lower hanging fruit in many ways. If you are going after a space that you’re not, you don’t frequent as much. Um, so I, yeah, I totally agree with that appeal.
I can feel my mind at points during the season being like, that sounds really fun. I’d love to try that out. Just to change it up. But I also love the idea that mountain running in many ways is hidden strength training. Um. And not to say that you shouldn’t strength train, I’m not saying that, but it really does do a good job of, um, that small muscle, um, and ligament strength that I think often gets neglected when we’re running kind of one direction all the time.

Zach: Yeah. I, I find like if I’m out on the trails and doing more steep stuff, uh, like I, you’re right, you, I still do strength training, but I can probably be a little bit more kind of cut and dry in the strength department, where it’s like I go into the strength of the main thing being just like some heavier compound movements versus having all these different kind of accessory movements that I’m likely gonna need to include if I’m running on the flats to kind of stave off some of the imbalances that are going to be more or less addressed while just running on that type of terrain.

Alyssa: No, that makes a lot of sense.
So speaking honestly, kind of along those terms, you’ve been in the sports since 2010 as we talked about. Did 20 10, 20 11, 20 12. Zach, think about what 2025 Zach was doing and did you plan at all to have longevity in the sport? Was that part of your thought process when you were starting out or a piece of your training?

Zach: Yeah it’s a great question. I thought about it through the lens of like, when I stepped away from teaching, I had signed a three year contract with ultra footwear at the time, so I sort of had a little bit of. Time to play with in terms of like, is this a world I can explore and build something within that is sustainable from a career standpoint versus, you know, just a bad life decision in the long term. Uh, and I sort of had some, some abilities where it was like, okay, like my teaching certifications were pretty broad. I was, I was regular ed, ed, special ed certified. So like finding a job teaching wasn’t a huge challenge with that, those, those certifications. So I thought to myself at the time, like, well, this goes terrible over the three years and it just doesn’t prove to be something I wanna build a career around, or I just can’t cut it, then, you know, it’s not, it’s not gonna be a huge like, career misstep to go back to teaching and, and kind of restart that career or things like that.
Um, but within that, my thought was like, well, what if it is successful? What if I do have a good experience in those three years and it does prove to be something I really wanna build a career around? These kinds of inputs are gonna be meaningful for me outside of, uh, just the training and racing side of stuff.
So one thing I learned as a teacher was I had summers very available where even when I was teaching full-time, I’d have 12 weeks where I could basically train like a professional athlete where I didn’t really have any obligations outside of getting up training and then resting, repeating and, and doing that if I wanted to. what I would always learn during those phases of the year was by the end of the summer when I would get to like, like week eight, week nine, I started really craving some, some variety, something else, a different focus, a different challenge to just both kind of like keep my mind occupied. But also I think about this a lot too.
It’s like how are you training your mind to be able to tolerate a lot? training can’t technically produce the level of focus you need for a race that’s gonna take double digit hours and beyond. So some of me thought like, okay, I’ve got these other curiosities, the other interests that I wanna explore.
How do I balance those with training that I’m still able to perform, but I’m not feeling like there’s like this, like, like weight on my shoulders ? All I have is these race results. But uh, at the same time kind of also have something where I’m building some things that are a little more sustainable than me producing race results.
So then if I did get to a point in my career where it’s like, Hey, I’m not putting up results that anyone’s worth kind of building a brand around or supporting me with. I have the structures in place that make that possible. Whether that be coaching or podcasting and things like that. So.
I don’t know that I’ve ever really taken it more than like, a few years at a time and just said, okay, this is still working. Let’s keep building. Um, I’ve always asked myself, is this something I’m gonna enjoy doing in five years, 10 years, 20 years? And, you know, as a sport’s grown and as I’ve gotten more involved in just the running community as a whole, the health and fitness side of side of, uh, the economy, I guess, you know, it’s just been something that’s continued to be like motivating and exciting to me.
So I’ve kinda just continued on. So, I’m 39 now, so I could definitely start another career if I wanted to at this point or in the future too. And I haven’t ruled out those sorts of things. But right now, I think like the stuff that I’ve been doing since I kind of made that decision, I have still been really motivating, really exciting, and I’ve presented enough like things and different challenges to, to make them something that I really, really have enjoyed.

Alyssa: I love that. Yeah. And I also think, I mean, at the time that you started, and I was a little bit after you as we were discussing before this podcast professionalization, I mean, that was very, very hard to do. I mean, almost impossible to run and have that be your sole career. So I think in many ways.
There was a forcing mechanism that you always had to think about the future. Um, but I, I think about that all the time is that I, if a professional athlete is not considering what they’re going to do at the end of their career in the next three to five years, I think you can be in really big trouble.
Um, so I think, I mean, a lot of foresight there, but also what were you or have you done physically to have longevity in your career, whether in running, cross training, strength training, how has that evolved to keep you performing at the top of the sport? I

Zach: Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s definitely like a piece of the puzzle and, you know, there are things where things change, right? So like, I spent the first 10 years of my ultra running career really not having to think about injuries all that much because I just didn’t get them. I’d have some injuries, but they were never really all that consequential. Uh, I’d missed a couple of races in that first 10 years due to an injury I had to manage. But it was never something where it was like, oh, I just didn’t have anything available to me this year because I just kept getting hurt. Um, you know, as I’ve gotten older, I’ve had more challenges with that, where I’ve had a variety of different injuries that have made it more difficult to be consistent and things like that.
So like exploring what are the, like what are, what reasonable expectations are that I should assume are gonna occur as someone gets older? And is no longer in that phase of their life where, you know, when you’re in your twenties, it’s like you can sort of just abuse yourself and then your body responds to it

Alyssa: Yeah.

Zach: having to be like dialed in on strength work and making sure you’re doing all the different things. And it may, it may be not just running or like the way I described, it’s like in my twenties, I like strength work, so I would do it, but it was a lot less structured and a lot less organized, where if I felt like, oh man, I feel really good to run again. Maybe I’ll skip that strength workout and just go for another run. Whereas now it’s like, even if I get that, that sort of thought process, I don’t do it. I’m like, well, the strength work is on the calendar and it’s there for a reason. I’m gonna go do that and I’m not gonna like, you know, let my primary joy of running kind of get in the way of having some structures in place that are gonna keep me healthy. Um, right now I’m exploring just like a, a different input too, where I’m, I’m pretty curious about like the bike input, uh, or I mean, you could look at it through other angles too. Like, I think the sport has done a really good job of showing how this works where a lot of the mountain runners, they’ll maybe spend winter doing a lot more skiing and things like that.
And then, you know, they kind of come back to the running side of their calendar year with a little bit of a similar experience that I had when I did San Diego, but just with a totally different sport. And I think that sort of stuff is what probably helps with longevity. Being able to get to a point where you’re like, okay, when I was younger I could just, I. Rinse and repeat 150 mile training week for a few weeks leading into a race. Whereas maybe now I need to be a little more mindful about still keeping the key components of that big training volume week in place, but supplementing some of the stuff that’s so maybe a little less important and removing some of that impact by hopping on the bike instead or something like that. So, uh, yeah, being open to just like the different strategies and what’s, what’s maybe gonna be more beneficial versus less beneficial of help kind of keep, keep things moving in the right direction and, and learning to trust your history too. Where I think one of the benefits of longer ultras, uh, or, or ultras in general for the most point once you can probably get away from like the 50 K or some of these like things that are just like pretty close to the marathon is like you, you, you, you have this scenario where that, that you’re gonna lose some speed as you get older, but the degree at which you lose it from a consequence standpoint, that’s not gonna be outweighed by just. Decades worth of aerobic development and just knowing how to race a specific distance or duration really well. So you’re not gonna make a mistake that you have to try to overcome with just brute strength from youth. are things that I think are, are, you just have to start trusting those a little bit more where like, you know, maybe, maybe just due to like the volume of running I’ve done historically, I don’t have to pull that lever quite as hard, specifically through running as I did when I was still developing some of those things.
And I can afford to train a little bit differently and still make progress.

Alyssa: No, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think just the wisdom that you gain of, of understanding, hey, okay, this is how I’ve had this scenario happen in my head, or I’ve dropped my water bottle, or, you know, any of the thousands of things that can go wrong in an ultra. Just being able to rely on that memory bank of problem solving, um, I think does make up quite a bit to a certain degree for the speed.
I mean, I still think of watching, uh, Nikki Spink, who is an amazing, 50 something year old runner out of the uk. I saw her at Tor de Geants and just her skill at navigating aid stations and climbing and just, and she came in third that year, I think at 56 years old. And it’s just her wisdom. Far exceeded any physical differences that she had compared to my 20 something year old self that just wasn’t smart enough.

Zach: Yeah. Yeah. No, and it’s interesting to think about too, and I mean, there’s definitely a point at which, you know, I’ll get to a spot where it’s like I get in a mindset of, okay, I probably just am not gonna produce my fastest a hundred mile anymore, and do I for further distance stuff where maybe that’s still on the table.
Or I guess in my case, since I really haven’t done a lot of that, like, you know, anything would technically be a pr. So, um, but, but you know, reaching full potential, like where are those lines and those, those, those times where maybe you decide, okay, that was something I would’ve targeted prior, but now I need to move on and adjust and ’cause still be part of the sport and maybe still compete, but in a different, a different distance or duration.

Alyssa: Yeah.
So that was kind of the last two pieces I wanted to touch on. The goals that you have for the future, what are you targeting

Zach: Yeah.

Alyssa: if you can.

Zach: Yeah, no, absolutely. I’m, I’m really spoiled with just great examples of like, kind of timelines I guess, where like the, you know, the, we’ve had, uh, world records broken in the a hundred mile distance, the 24 hour duration and things like that by individuals in their forties. So, you know, I see it as like, all right, well I shouldn’t assume that I am too old to still PR a hundred miles. Uh, so if I’m interested in chasing something like that, then, you know, it’s probably worth exploring still if I’m excited about it and it’s gonna be a meaningful build and kind of add value to what I’m trying to do. Uh, but also, you know, I’m thinking about like, well, what if that. Becomes something where I either lose interest in chasing those, um, from just like, all right, I’ve done this enough times now where I just don’t really wanna do this anymore, but I’m still interested in running ultra marathons. Um, you know, these multi-day stuff and these longer races do look really exciting and there’s just so many frameworks to it now with like the last man standing stuff. Um, I’ve really gotten into kind of the history of the sport too, and been looking into things like the six day event and how popular that was at one point, um, over a hundred years ago at this point actually.
And, and, and watching the sport start to kind of relearn that and get excited about it, kind of gets me excited about it too. You know, you see some, like Meg Eckhart go and run 603 miles in six days. Um, just like, wow, that’s, that’s really cool. And it feels like a different experience than going on a track and running fast for, you know, 12 hours or less. You know, part of me is excited about like, well I wonder, you know, maybe I’m terrible at that, you know, maybe I’m great at it. You know, that kind of uncertainty of kind of reigniting that same thought process where, you know, when I got into ultra running, I ran up some successful 50 milers and then I was like, maybe I’m good at a hundred miles, maybe I’m not, so you still have that like, newness side of things too. So I do think at some point I’ll probably wanna explore some of that stuff too and just see what it’s like if for nothing else, just to kind of get an idea, um, of what that side of the sport actually feels like and experience the difference between, you know, running through multiple nights or trying to figure out when to sleep and when not to sleep.
And managing all the different characteristics of those types of, uh, events too, are definitely something that I think I’m gonna want to do. Um, which they tend to have a little bit of a longer lifespan, I think just due to the even more reduction in race day speed needs and things like that.
Alyssa: Yeah. I can tell you that sleep deprivation is not fun. It, or at least I have.

Zach: That world. Yeah,

Alyssa: Yeah. I’ve yet to find a fun piece about sleep deprivation. Um, do you. Look at these explorations as well from your coaching hat perspective as well as like, yeah, I’m curious about that.

Zach: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it is something where like as a coach, there’s like, you know, you see a lot of like discussion around this too, where it’s like, do you need to be really good at something to be a coach of it? And it’s like, no, you don’t need to. But we are also in a sport where we don’t, we’re not armed with nearly as much research as what you’re gonna see for like Olympic distance events or other sports that have just really, really been studied and invested in over the years. So I think there, there’s just still this component of ultra running, especially when you get up to the multi-day stuff where it, if you have an experience, whether it’s good, bad or otherwise, I think

Alyssa: Yes.

Zach: give you some tools as a coach that you’re just not gonna have if you don’t kind of go through that yourself. Um, you could talk to tons of people, which I’ve done. You can go out and you can crew and pace and coach at these longer events and things like that, which I’ve done. But I do think, like having said something like Coco Donut or doing a six day event or a last man standing, I. Will teach me some things that, I mean, you have to be careful about it too, ’cause like your experience isn’t necessarily gonna be someone else’s experience.
So you don’t wanna put all the weight in that and just be like, Hey, this worked for me, therefore do it ’cause it’s gonna work for you. But have, say, a coaching client that’s trying to optimize a multi-day event and they’re telling you about an experience, there are gonna be some crossovers there that are gonna kind of happen to pretty much anyone who does one that are unavoidable, that now you have a, a reference point for. So yeah, I think like, yeah, even if I got to a, let, let’s say I decided to do some multi-day seven, five, I’m just terrible at it, but, you know, I can still get the experience and, and not be, be winning and kind of carry that over to fill some, some, some needs within the coaching front and the education side of things.

Alyssa: Absolutely. I mean, I don’t necessarily think you have to be an expert or the best at, uh, racing distance to coach it well, but I do think there is so much value in just experiencing, I mean, there is something very bizarre that happens to your brain on night three. If you have to go and do a third night, it is just a strange experience.
And having done it myself and then also now watched people or paced and crude them, coached, et cetera, it, it’s helpful just to, to understand like, yeah, your functioning capacity is very low and the coming in and out of, I’m here, I’m in another world, I don’t even know where I am. Like, that’s really hard to explain until you’ve experienced it.
Um, so yeah, that’s, I totally agree. I do think, and also just the more people, and I’m not necessarily saying. I’m not saying everyone should go out and do multi-day events, et cetera, but the more people that have knowledge and experience, the more data we’re able to bring into the future too.
Because I don’t even think we’ve touched what we can actually do in those distances. I think we made tremendous strides, but I still think there’s a lot of room.

Zach: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It’s really interesting stuff. I think like, yeah, yeah. You, you look at it through a few different lenses in terms of like the doing side of it and, and, and even like when you think of, uh, you know, one thing I asked Meg Eckert about when she came on my podcast was like, you’re out there like. Focused on this one goal, sort of like living in an alternate universe essentially from what your normal existence would be like for six days. And I think the longer you do that, ’cause you get some element of that even in the shorter ultras, but six days is a healthy removal from the norm. What is it like to kind of go back into normal life, especially when you have a performance like she did? It’s really hard to kind of reengage with what would be a little bit more typical. And how does that work ? I always think of it like recovery after a race. There’s a physical recovery component where you need to let your body recharge from the efforts of the race as well as the rigors that went into the training leading into it. also kind of the mind side, like how do you kind of get used to being excited again about another task or another goal and helping someone navigate that with an experience that is specific to it could be very helpful too as a coach where, you know, the communication piece is a huge, valuable part of the coaching experience.
So like being able to say like, oh yeah, you know. When I did that too, I struggled to kind of reconnect for a few days and we just need to be patient here. We don’t need to force things right away. And can more or less avoid mistakes as much as kind of have solutions.

Alyssa: Absolutely. I mean, I still, uh, Nikki Kimball actually coached me for a bit and she ran hurt. The first year I ran hurt, it was my first a hundred. And I still remember the advice that she gave me after the race where she’s like, you might just cry randomly. You’re gonna have a lot of emotions. You’re not gonna understand why you feel this way or why there’s just water pouring out of your eyes. And I just, I still remember the, just how helpful it was to be like, I’m not insane that I’m having these, these experiences after a race. And yeah, it’s, it’s. I think it’s so relieving when someone says, you are not crazy. This is just kind of a situation that happens. Or even getting acne or like, you know, just any number of odd things that happen that maybe aren’t the best for us, but at least, there’s some blueprint of others’ experiences.

Zach: Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, I think that’s powerful.

Alyssa: Absolutely. Uh, so last question, um, and then we’ll wrap it this year you stepped away from kind of a more traditional main shoe sponsorship, um, that I actually didn’t realize. You’ve been with Ultra for how many years.

Zach: I had been with him for 11 years.

Alyssa: Wow. That’s, I mean, that’s amazing. But what this year led you to decide that you wanted to branch out?
If you’re doing more shoe testing and just giving more shoe reviews and kind of an overall, um, look at. That side of the sport, what led to that decision?

Zach: Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s been interesting because I think with, uh, with, with sponsorships, there’s, there’s like a, a need for them to a degree, right? Where like, especially if someone is starting the process of trying to build something that’s sustainable, where if you wanna really be able to step away from other demands that essentially pay the bills and spend time training and racing, that support to be able to do that is, is a huge advantage.
And at certain points in my career, where a necessity to be able to justify it. I got to a point where, between podcasting and coaching and things like that, I wasn’t really financially dependent upon a pro athlete contract to the same degree as I was. So it was like I didn’t have to stress about that by saying, okay, I need to find a shoe sponsor.
If I want to continue this journey, I can continue this journey, uh, without that. Um, and then, you know, you start, things start adding up too, where like the shoe market has, this is one of the more interesting evolutions in running throughout my career is like, when I started running, it was like my mindset was I wanna build a training set up where I can put on like the lightest, smallest, most responsive pair of shoes as possible. Because most ultra runners are probably not gonna do that. They’re probably going to try to. Minimize the impact by wearing a heavier, more cushioned shoe on race day because it is hard, there is a lot of impact. But I felt like, well, if I can build myself up to be able to tolerate a four ounce low profile shoe on race day, more similar to what someone might wear for like a 10 K or a marathon, then that might be a relative performance advantage. Um, whereas now the whole world has shifted where essentially we have regulations put on our shoes where you can’t stack them up after a certain point because the performance just kind of keeps going as long as it’s a relative amount of stability sustained. So like the fastest shoes on the market are now all 40 millimeter, uh, max cushion shoes because that foam is so premium where you’re gonna gain, you know, upwards of maybe 4%, uh, efficiency by wearing those versus what would traditionally have been a more of a racing, racing flatter marathon type shoe. So. What that I think does is it, it, it sort of made the shoe world a little bit more like, the best way I think I can describe this is like the bike world where, you know, if you’re doing a specific type of bike race, you’re gonna get a very specific type of bike and that might change, uh, depending on what event you’re doing with it and the different like aspects of that event.
And to some degree you’re gonna do that with shoes too. But like even before Super shoes. But it was a little bit more, I think it was a little bit more expansive where like more or less I could probably find a shoe that wasn’t gonna cost me with almost any brand where, so find a brand you really like one that maybe has more options for you within it and if you can partner with them, then it’s a win-win versus now I think it’s like as this, and this is all still evolving, right?
Like we just had Puma release a new shoe before the Boston Marathon that data we have currently shows that it might be more efficient than the most efficient shoe in the market prior to that. I know, before that maybe it was Nike, maybe it was Adidas. So we sort of have this like moving target of what shoe is actually gonna be the fastest for your shoe, for your, for your race now versus in six months, 12 months, 18 months and things like that. And mean, if we keep regulations on that, I think that probably eventually normalizes where like pretty much you, you can pick from multiple brands and really maybe not get that much of a difference. I just don’t think that’s the case right now. So I wanted some flexibility in actually not just finding the shoe that is gonna produce the best efficiency on average, but find a few shoes that do that and then go in and test and find out which ones are actually gonna do that for you.
Because there is some variance from one person to the next where someone might find they have a better efficiency gain in like the Zoom X foams versus uh, puma’s deviate, nitro elite stuff, or any of these other super premium foams that have out there. So I kind of wanted that flexibility to be able to go into a training block and think, okay, I’m going to actually go into a lab and test a handful of options that feel good on my foot to find which one is actually gonna yield the best performance.
And just didn’t lend itself to exclusivity. So then it’s like, well how do you kind of navigate that world? And for me, in the short term, I think that’s just like going unsponsored for a while. So I can kinda explore that world and figure out some of those kinds of characteristics that work best for me.
And um, I think there’s still options within that world though too. Like, I think there’s, uh, I mean this is where we were kind of chatting a little bit of this before the podcast too, is like a lot of the influencers, they will do brand partnerships and things like
Alyssa: Yeah. They’re not exclusive though.

Zach: Right.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Zach: And they’re, they’re short duration too, where it’s like, they’ll be like, um, they’ll say, let’s say they’re doing the Chicago Marathon, maybe they sign a four month partnership with one of the brands is like, okay, I’m gonna use this shoe on at the Chicago Marathon, so all the content I create in route to that is gonna be featuring this shoe. Let’s see if there’s some, some collaborations here, or some support that you can give me here in order to, you know, pick that shoe versus something else. I think there’s options with that too, where like if I decide like, okay, I’m gonna do Desert Solstice, or I’m gonna do Tunnel Hill or Javelina, or something like that down the road, where when I get to like, okay, which shoe is actually gonna work best for me at this? connections to all the brands and being able to pitch differently, like content creation ideas and things like that around that, I think that’s a path forward. I can understand why an athlete wouldn’t wanna do that if that’s their kind of like their primary focus and they’re relying on that because it’s stressful to have to like. from like a 1, 2, 3 year structure to, okay, now I’m signing these three month partnerships and having to do that. So there’s definitely pros and cons to either direction. Um, but kinda like I was saying before, I was sort of in a position where, um, I didn’t need to rely on exclusivity and, and the, the sponsorship that comes along with that.
So it kind of allowed me some flexibility to explore the world a little bit more. Um, I’m also really curious about this sort of stuff too. So having that opportunity. ’cause you know, like I said, I’ve been wearing ultra exclusively for 11 years. So like the running world has evolved and changed and done all sorts of things while I was wearing just ultra. And I think after 11 years I kind of got to a point where it was like, alright, I’m curious enough to wanna figure this out. Wanna try some of this different stuff, explore this stuff for a while and see how it goes and just figure out where that leads. And so for now it’s uh, it’s about just trying as many options as possible, reviewing shoes and things like that and kind of seeing where it all leads.

Alyssa: Oh, that’s, I love that. ’cause I mean, it is as exciting as the sport has become in the professionalization, et cetera, the shoe part of it too is just insane of how many different directions it’s going. I have kind of a hunch that, I mean, I had this for a while, that carbon plated trail shoes are actually not the ideal trail.
I don’t think carbon plates are the way that we should go. I think there’s something else, I don’t know what it is, but I think there is something that exists and so, yeah, it’s exciting that you’re able to explore that a lot more and just optimize.

Zach: Yeah. I think we’ve probably overassumed the value of some of the, some of the new shoe tech on the trails and what that’s gonna do. It gets interesting as you get into the more controlled environments, I think. There’s a lot more reason to believe you’re gonna probably be faster in the premium foams than what, whatever you would get your hands on, like pre 2016 and things like that. which kind of puts me in a bit of a unique spot maybe because I’m, I’m generally not focusing on the very terrain stuff as like a primary race endpoint. But, yeah, I mean it’s, I mean, there’s still questions I think about what benefits they give you, like in the long term duration. ’cause you sort of have this, you have this sort of trade off where you lose some stability to gain performance because there’s a weight component and then an energy return component to the supers shoe model.
So best supers shoe on the market for you, if it creates enough instability that all of a sudden, like you’re just done at 70 miles, it doesn’t matter that you’re running way more efficiently for those first 70 miles. You just kind of like painting] yourself into a corner that’s not gonna produce an end result.
But, um. I think it is interesting. I’m also curious too, where my fastest a hundred miles in a non-super shoe. So like I, I think like, okay, well what if I do receive X percent efficiency on that, with that exact same performance, how much, how much faster could I be with that?
Sort of, with that sort of an input? And you know, I’ve been fortunate where I know a couple of like kinda the lead researchers on the, on the super shoe world and, um, one of ’em, Jeff Burns, I was talking to him and I was like, if you had to estimate, like assuming what we know, like what would you guess would be like the, the variance between the control shoe and a supers shoe for say like a flat hundred miler. he was like, you know, it’s gonna be a range and it’s gonna be dependent from person to person, but with enough people it’s probably gonna be between 10 and 30 minutes. So, I mean, that’s a huge chunk of time just to

Alyssa: It’s huge. Yeah.

Zach: Yeah. I’m curious about that too, where it’s like the, the, the running world has sort of moved into a spot where it’s not a conversation anymore really of like, should we allow these or not?
I don’t think there’s really, we’re not putting that toothpaste back in the tube at this point. So it’s about what regulations do we put in place so it doesn’t get totally outta hand, but also continue to evolve and develop products that are going to, uh, you know, make the sport exciting and give people options to stuff like that.
But I mean, there’s all sorts of injury type of scenarios too with, uh, with products like that. So a lot of learning to go into it and self exploration.

Alyssa: Yeah, that’s the piece. I mean, I, yeah, this could be a whole other podcast about

Zach: Yeah.

Alyssa: nerding out on, on shoes. But, um, yeah, just the injury piece. Also the form degradation, all of those parts as you’re heading into the ladder halves of races. ’cause I mean, they’re designed for a marathon and less is, is always like the hunch that I thought.
And then we’re kind of like shoving them into the ultra world and seeing if they stick.
Um, so yeah, I, are you planning a hundred mile effort this year, or?

Zach: Yeah. Yeah, I actually had a race in June. I was going to do it, it was actually at the Petit Center where I ran my fastest time, but I picked up some Achilles issues, uh, about a month and a half ago. So I’ve been a lot more biking and a lot less running the last few weeks. So I think I’m gonna end up pulling out of that and focusing on doing something a little bit later in the year.
But I think I’ll do, I’ll do a hundred miler. I’m sort of trying to decide between making like a primary target between like Tunnel Hill or Velina as kind of two kind of interesting ones that I’ve, I always enjoy going to either of those events, so, um, I’d really like to kinda explore what I could do in, in either of those with, uh, a good buildup from here on.

Alyssa: Awesome. Well, I wish you the best of black, and I’m excited to see how just, I mean, just literally changing the shoes, it will be an exciting component to see, which is wild to say, but it, it’s true. I mean, that will lead to a different outcome to some extent.

Zach: Yeah. Yeah,

Alyssa: Yeah.

Zach: it’s a funny world with that sort of thing, and it just adds one more variable to consider, I guess, when we’re kind of going through the, the, the rigors of training and figuring out what’s gonna, what’s gonna yield your best result.

Alyssa: Yes. Yeah. Well, Zach, thank you so much for being on the podcast. This has been so much fun to chat with you. Where can people find you? Um, online, learn more about you, your podcast.

Zach: Absolutely. Uh, the best spot to head is just zachbitter.com. That’s where I have like the podcast link coaching stuff, link, social media channels and stuff like that. I’m probably most active on Instagram, which is just at Zach Bitter. Um, yeah, that’s the spot.

Alyssa: Awesome. Well, thanks so much Zach, and thank you for listening to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. If you can rate, review, subscribe on your favorite podcast platform that helps us help more athletes. It’s not just one, but a community. We are uphill athletes.