Sky Running with Lukas Mann

00:01.58
Alyssa
Hi everyone, welcome to the uphill athlete podcast. I am your host today and I’m excited to bring on a guest who has, we’ve been working together for quite a few months now and he is an all around mountain person and we’re here to talk about ah Kind of a collaboration between the two of us to bring a new training plan out to you all. And here, Lucas Mann, who is my guest today, talked about his experience with the plan and also why we developed a skywriting plan. So Lucas, thanks for being on the podcast today.

00:45.86
Lukas Mann
Yeah, thanks for having me, Alyssa. Looking forward to it. It’s been a good couple months.

00:49.84
Alyssa
Yeah, it’s, so well, just right before we got on, you were even saying how things have, um like how much your capacity for vert and just getting out and moving with efficiency through mountains has increased. So I’m excited to dig into that. um But first, I’d love to hear a little bit about yourself, where you’re from, and also what got you into mountain sports, because you’re kind of an all around mountain fiend, we’ll say.

01:20.32
Lukas Mann
I like being out there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I, I’ve been kind of going into the mountains consistently for, um, say around five years, so not ah not a crazy amount of time. Uh, but I conveniently moved out to British Columbia on the west coast of Canada, um, in approximately that same timeframe. So, uh, I grew up overseas in Indonesia and, um, really, really enjoyed volcanoes over there. That was really cool. Um, there’s not the same sort of Alpine environment and feel there, but there’s big verdant, big mountains. So that was really kind of my introduction. My family used to travel and go hike a fair bit. And that was kind of my introduction to being really enthralled by this sense of being able to climb really high, really in a relatively short amount of time. And then moving to BC really um opened the door to a lot

02:10.19
Lukas Mann
more um styles of adventure. I think up until that point, it was kind of just limited to hiking for the most part because there wasn’t much of anything else. um but moving here really kind of, yeah, that whole world just changed. So I, you know, on a pretty regular basis, I kind of hop between in the winter, I splitboard a lot or kind of get into ice climbing and then a lot of kind of general mountaineering. I’m a mediocre climber, I’m not great, but I really really enjoy alpine climbing and just kind of being able to get out there and I think just being able to watch that.

02:43.80
Alyssa
Thanks.

02:45.85
Lukas Mann
um My capacity slowly expands as you learn different things and there’s a lot of crossover between things like trail running and things like mountaineering, there’s you know there’s actually a lot more. I guess there is more commonality between the two than I think one would assume. So it’s been really cool to add this now component of endurance training and and and more consistency to what I already enjoyed, which was just being out in the mountains.

03:10.97
Alyssa
Love it. And you mentioned trail running, but what brought that on your radar? Were you doing a lot of trail running kind of in the last five years or, um, is that something that’s been a bit of a newer endeavor for you?

03:28.35
Lukas Mann
Yeah, that’s a great question. I, really haven’t been a runner for very long at all. I’ve really enjoyed moving. I’ve been very active for quite a while. I played basketball pretty competitively up until my first year of university. And I think that I’ve always enjoyed being able to move well, but, uh, the actual sport of trail running wasn’t really a part of my life at all until about, I really only started training about six months ago consistently. Um, which. which seems now looking back a little ah little crazy, but um but i’ve I think the background that I had in the mountains really helped prepare me for it.

04:04.75
Lukas Mann
I really always disliked road running. I still do. I have a pretty strong vendetta against going and pounding pavement for a long period of time. I just love that other people love it. I think it’s really really great. um I just can’t i can’t stomach it very well. i just you know If it’s a nice day and I’m running on the road, I’m like, man,

04:23.00
Alyssa
Thank

04:24.70
Lukas Mann
could be somewhere way more enjoyable and not hurt my body as much. So um I think I kind of always almost looked down a little bit on running just because it didn’t feel like it facilitated the kind of experiences I wanted to have. like i I didn’t love the repetitive like you know run through suburbs and look at you know with the mountains off in the distance. It just didn’t. really appeal to me. But then realizing that trail running isn’t actually nearly as aggressive as it might seem. And then there’s a lot of really cool ways to kind of slowly ease your way into it.

04:51.00
Alyssa
you

04:52.33
Lukas Mann
So I wouldn’t, looking back now, I guess I wouldn’t say I’d necessarily ease my way into it. But um I ended up signing, long story short, I ended up signing up for um a race called the Minotaur back in October, and late October. And I had seen it on, I think on social media through people that I knew that had spoken very highly of it. And it appealed to me a lot because it was technically a trail race, but it’s part of the sky running world series. So um characterized by big vert, kind of shorter distances, like usually sub-marathons, but big vert and relatively technical trails. so

05:28.41
Lukas Mann
um The Minotaur seemed to be one of the more technical ones, even within that circuit. and it was only about, it was a day’s drive from where I lived. So it was relatively accessible for me. So anyway, I signed up for it. Not so much. but I mean, I was quite excited for the race, but I think the goal was more so to and have a an end date in mind with a you know ah race that I had to be able to run and to help that facilitate you know a couple of months of training and then be ready for summer Alpine objectives. um But in the process, I think I really discovered that I really enjoyed the training for it. I found it a lot more, it fit a lot better into my lifestyle than I thought it would. So yeah, that’s kind of how the whole idea came about. And now, you know, I guess a month after the race, I’m feeling very thankful I did it and ready to kind of continue to integrate that into my lifestyle to some degree for sure.

06:18.54
Alyssa
Yeah, it’s been fun to see because I still, I think you’re, yeah, you’re still attached to me on train peaks and sometimes I’ll just be like, I wonder if Lucas is still doing some running and I’ll check in. I’ll be like, ah yes, definitely the running bug is still there.

06:34.19
Lukas Mann
Yeah.

06:34.14
Alyssa
So it’s fun to see that that has continued um forward. And um I think it’s, you know, it’s such a, I guess, It’s such a great way that that was like the race was a catalyst for this to really incorporate in your training and I think what’s also fun from um my perspective of watching you grow is that When you come from a mountain background, like you weren’t starting from scratch at all. I mean, maybe you hadn’t been running as much, but you, you understand what it means to have big mountain days. You have a lot of leg strength, a lot of capacity to go uphill and all of that, um, I think contributes really well.

07:16.71
Alyssa
Like they work really well together as you were saying and I think that running can be Intimidating um it can also Feel like oh, yeah, I’ve got to run a marathon at this pace to be considered a runner and I liked the way you said um Trail running. Gosh, would you say specifically the lake turning wasn’t basically is um strict as you thought it, or running wasn’t as strict, ah because trail running involves a lot of hiking and a lot of um just, you know, running is I think almost the wrong word for what we do in the mountains.

07:40.60
Lukas Mann
yeah

07:45.51
Lukas Mann
Yeah.

07:53.43
Alyssa
It can be scrambling, it can be almost climbing, you know, all of those pieces.

07:58.05
Lukas Mann
Totally. And I think that really is what You know, my, my end goal, if there is one with all this is, uh, I think really to just be a more, more capable mountain goer in a sense, right? Like, I think, I think speed. The longer you’re out there, the more you realize speed is a pretty crucial component of safety in a lot of ways. And um I care less about having the fastest times out there.

08:20.01
Alyssa
Absolutely.

08:23.74
Lukas Mann
And I care a lot more about just being really competent and not just speed for the sake of being out and back really quickly, but also for the um you know that the fitter you are, the more easily you’ll be able to tackle certain objectives. And and I think when you’re in technical terrain, if I can you know get to the crux of the route and I’m six hours in, but I feel you know like 75% strength versus getting to that same point in the same amount of time, but being 30% and completely gassed, it’s a really big difference. And that plays a pretty big role in your ability to move safely as well. So I find even even more so than just being able to go hammer really quick times, I think,

09:06.27
Lukas Mann
being able to feel in control, um kind of that this overall like trail running fitness thing has played a really big component in my ability to go out there and and do things that used to feel, I think, a like a bit more of a stretch and and feel like, oh, wow, no, I can actually do this you know very reasonably in it and a pretty appropriate amount of time and not feel like I’m i’m stressed about time or rushing or anything.

09:27.70
Alyssa
Yeah, I truly think fitness is one of your biggest safety tools out there. um Whether it’s you know being able, like say in Colorado where you have storms that come in most afternoons, being able to get an objective done in the morning and have plenty of time to come in um before that storm hits, or getting out of rock hazard.

09:43.88
Lukas Mann
Thank

09:51.90
Alyssa
um before things warm up you know there’s just so many pieces that it’s not so much it’s not an ego aspect of oh yeah i’m just fast this is great like look at how fast i am it is so much of you just have the capacity to handle so much more to deal with unexpected circumstances and i always think of it

10:03.70
Lukas Mann
you.

10:13.39
Alyssa
Like, man, I want an ultra runner or someone who can move quickly through the bounds on my team if something happens because man, they can get out quickly and get help.

10:21.94
Lukas Mann
Totally.

10:22.93
Alyssa
Yeah.

10:24.16
Lukas Mann
I think there are very few circumstances in which being fitter is a detriment to your safety.

10:29.12
Alyssa
yeah

10:31.99
Lukas Mann
I think it’s always going to increase. We talk a lot about the margin for error that you have. And there’s all sorts of things you can add to increase that margin for error, like having an inreacher, leaving a trip plan with people, or or you know wearing a helmet, or just these basic things. But I think one of the things that maybe isn’t talked about as much, or or maybe it is in some circles, but I think I didn’t have this perception of speed and and just general fitness being a really big component of safety. um And it’s certainly not the only one. But I do think in the long run, the more

11:05.05
Lukas Mann
you can contribute to your overall fitness and your ability to, um, you know, put your body through, uh, what would be, you know, kind of akin to a really big race. Um, if you can do that, you know, pretty consistently when you’re on the mountains by yourself or with friends, you’re just going to walk away feeling far safer, I think more often than not in the long run because you’re not pushing yourself to the max all the time. And there will be days for that, but it doesn’t, it allows you to have less and less of those, I think.

11:34.19
Alyssa
100%. Yeah, and honestly, overall, it’s probably just a lot healthier . Ah you know, you start stacking the big day after big day, your hormones get really unhappy and sleep can get disrupted. And yeah, that can really add up for sure.

11:51.73
Lukas Mann
Totally.

11:52.85
Alyssa
So going back to October, you signed up for Minotaur. What was your plan to get yourself ready for the race?

12:06.33
Lukas Mann
Yeah, good question. um Quite frankly, I didn’t have a concrete plan. I think um I knew a few things about the Minotaur. I knew it was long. I knew it was steep and it involved a lot of up and down. um And I knew it was reasonably technical as far as trail races go anyway. um I wasn’t concerned about the technicality and I think I came to know with my background in the mountains that none of the terrain really was out of my comfort zone whatsoever.

12:37.67
Lukas Mann
um and my ability to, I think downhills always, but like I don’t, I’ve never really struggled with downs as much. I’ve Even, even to date, like even on the race that was kind of the only times that I passed people or felt like I was keeping up with people was fast downhill and then like technical bridge stuff, everything else, the uphills. It was so embarrassing. I’d like to fly down these downhills and it was really great. And I didn’t, I never like to really blow through my quads, which was really nice. Like even at the end, I never really blew through them. Um, But then, you know, you’d hit the next hill and I’d be out of it. And all these people would come and pass me again and be like, oh wow, it’s like this yo-yo back and forth. But, um, so anyway, all I, all I knew was, you know, I think ah the technical components of the race were pretty.

13:22.80
Lukas Mann
pretty comfortable for me. It was really just going to come down to the fitness thing. And um and i i didn’t have ah I certainly wouldn’t say I had a plan when I signed up for it. I think I kind of gradually started to form a bit more of a plan, but obviously when I connected with you, then that became a far more concrete reality, which made my life a lot easier.

13:39.77
Alyssa
I’m glad. Yeah, so Lucas was going to use our big vert plan, which is designed more for 50K and up. And so when he was working with TrainingPeaks, and I think TrainingPeaks reached out to us, like, hey, you’re going to use the big vert plan.

13:57.52
Lukas Mann
Yeah.

13:59.35
Alyssa
I was like, no, no, no, no, no, let’s not do that. This is such a great reason. we’ve been dying like I’ve been dying to make a sky running plan. Let me work with Lucas and we can kind of like come up with this or use this as the basis of creating a sky running plan. um So it was really fun to write a plan. It’s fine, but it’s a lot of solo time and training peaks just like putting your head down. So it was way more fun to have the interaction with you of building that plan out and kind of seeing how it was working.

14:40.04
Alyssa
um as you moved through it. But also just to give the audience an idea of what the Minotaur is. So it’s a 30, I just got the stats, like 33 kilometers, um which is about 18-ish miles, 19 miles. And

14:59.72
Lukas Mann
No. Yes.

15:01.16
Alyssa
Yeah, I know, I’d like to ask the Canadians about the conversion to miles. I think that’s about 19 miles and then it is 2900 meters, which, friend they or the stats completely off because often they’re off.

15:10.76
Lukas Mann
Yeah, I think the official, it was more like, it was more like 35K and then the stats, most people’s watches registered over 3000 meters of vert.

15:19.69
Alyssa
Okay.

15:23.80
Alyssa
Yeah.

15:24.13
Lukas Mann
I think some were a little bit less, but it seemed to come out here on that. So definitely, you know, that’d be over 10,000 feet of climbing. So it’s a lot of, a lot of up and down.

15:32.91
Alyssa
Yeah, that’s a lot for a short, um, for, for that 20 miles and 10 Ks a lot.

15:40.49
Lukas Mann
Oh man, it packs a bunch, yeah, for sure.

15:44.19
Alyssa
Yeah. Uh, so that’s kind of what we’re looking at. And sky running is typically defined between about 20 K to sometimes they get into 50 K and they’re generally like that 2000 meters and above.

15:58.87
Lukas Mann
Yeah.

15:59.07
Alyssa
Um, type profile. So they’re, they’re considered mountains or they are mountainous.

16:01.17
Lukas Mann
and

16:03.73
Alyssa
That’s kind of the defining factor of it.

16:04.83
Lukas Mann
yes

16:05.91
Alyssa
Um, so as we started working together, what did you find were the challenging pieces of training and also what workouts were you like when you got in the race? Did you feel, Oh yeah, those were really some kind of key workouts that helped me.

16:26.07
Lukas Mann
Yeah, good question. So I think the volume was really big. Correct me if I’m wrong, right? My sense of training for a race like this is that if you don’t have the volume, you aren’t going to do much. like You can certainly improve on a plan by adding in different things like speed workouts and intervals and strength training and whatnot, but um certainly didn’t feel like anything really substituted for the just a simple act of getting out there and going uphill and going downhill and doing it a lot.

16:59.22
Lukas Mann
um so that was you know i think Even your help in putting together a timeline that you know started at a you know a reasonable ah reasonable spot and then kind of gradually built over time made made a lot of sense and that that took a lot of… It took a lot of stress off my mind because I didn’t necessarily have to worry about setting those numbers. I just had to make sure I got them done. um And so that was definitely a really helpful ah part of the plan was being able to start and then look through the app and look up ahead and say, OK, you know, every week I’m going to be, for the most part, building pretty consistently and then peaking a couple of weeks before the race and whatnot. So I think the volume was definitely there. Yeah, I mean, when you go from not

17:43.44
Lukas Mann
I’ve always spent, I would say, a reasonably large amount of time in the mountains, but I’m not 10 to 15 hours a week off of consistent training. And so that was probably the biggest um

17:58.54
Lukas Mann
uh not a shock to the system but it was definitely like that was the biggest adjustment was okay now i’m i have to be used to you know putting in every day for the most part a good chunk of my day into this um but it was awesome it was really i really enjoyed it i i found I ran a little bit before that but pretty sparsely and and I just never liked it because I was running on roads and it wasn’t that fun and so having the you know the objective in mind and saying no I need to justify um you know the drive to the trailhead and then the time spent out on the trail and then the time back and it always ended up being something I really look forward to or or almost all the time i I really look forward to it so I think that was the wonderful thing about about this is that

18:39.88
Lukas Mann
It never really felt like a ton of work. And I mean, there’s obviously work involved in going up and down mountains, but there was never a part of it where I was like, oh man, I don’t even really know if I want to be doing this long-term. Like it was always like, no, this is totally worthwhile. And it is definitely taking me to a place where I’ll be far more capable, not just for the race, but in general. So ah certainly there were things like interval workouts and and speed workouts and uphill like uphill intervals were a good challenge. And I think that really helped a lot. um i Yeah, they mean everything was really great. I think it all seemed to work well together to then lead towards the final race, which I ended up being able to do pretty well. so

19:19.98
Lukas Mann
yeah

19:22.18
Alyssa
Nice. I think that that’s a really good indicator that you were in a great spot to be able to do it. You know, obviously, like The fact that you’re saying, yes, it’s hard, obviously, but I was excited to do it. I wanted to do it. That’s when you start feeling like, oh my gosh, this just doesn’t feel worth it. I’m not there. It’s like, maybe we want to reassess, but that’s awesome that you felt Um, and you had some awesome runs. Seemed like you found a great trail running community, um, for some of the longer runs.

19:57.25
Alyssa
So you weren’t doing those solo. Um, cause that can get mentally a bit draining really. like I have a four and a half hour run, uh, this weekend.

20:04.75
Lukas Mann
If I actually found myself, interestingly, I found that I don’t even know if I did many of my longer runs with, I actually think I ended up doing more of my longer runs alone than I did.

20:09.36
Alyssa
Oh,

20:13.90
Lukas Mann
I think some of the shorter runs I did with, with the I actually really enjoyed, I really enjoyed the long runs alone.

20:15.96
Alyssa
oh okay. Good point. Yeah.

20:20.46
Lukas Mann
That’s just me. I don’t know. I found them really enjoyable.

20:22.28
Alyssa
I mean, I’m not way too, but some people are like, oh, I can’t, that’s just a long time in my head. I’m like, no, that’s what sounds like a great long time in nature.

20:31.58
Lukas Mann
Yeah. It’s been a long time, but I don’t know. I think and think the bigger thing was just making sure it didn’t feel uber repetitive. So picking trails that were maybe loops or not. I don’t know. I find it excessive when people just do laps of the same thing over and over and over and over again, um which is I think sometimes that’s just all you got, which is fine. But um I tried to make a point of any longer workouts, making sure I wasn’t just like doing the same trail over and over and over again. um But no, I don’t know. I really like And I never really listened to anything. like I’m not a I love podcasts and music, but not really on the trails. So um it was a good time. Yeah, you know there’s lots of time that they can ponder and enjoy the place that you’re in. And I think that’s part of the reason why trail running feels so much more sustainable of an activity in the long run, because I do just like being out there. it doesn’t always There’s obviously work involved, but it doesn’t always feel like you know perpetual grind. Like, well, OK, we’re just going to have to work really hard and get through this. A lot of it’s really enjoyable.

21:28.32
Alyssa
Yeah, I agree. And actually I don’t think I’ve ever asked this question before, but how do you compare your mental space when you’re doing, say more of an Alpine objective versus trail running?

21:48.06
Lukas Mann
and Great question. um I find uphills are always, um I mean, they’re always slower than the downhills for obvious reasons, and you’re not um moving particularly fast. And you’re also not, for the most part, you’re not wanting to blow up. So you’re kind of trying to maintain your um rate of output at a pretty moderate rate. You don’t want to be bombing uphill for very long. Um, so I find the, uh, pills are really great to sit and think. And I find, I found my, my mind wanders a lot. So, um, that’s different from Alpine stuff, but I was actually, I was out on the traverse last two nights ago. And, uh, it was a really beautiful kind of fourth, fifth class Ridge scramble, super fun. And then, uh, a long kind of bomb back down to the car and.

22:41.55
Lukas Mann
I was chatting with my friend after and and kind of compared the um sensation of like really fast technical downhill to almost a bit like the flow state in climbing where you’re so zoned in on what you’re doing that time passes like that. and um there’s a fair bit of skill involved too like I I find I because I’ve only been training consistently for um you know for this sort of thing for you know six eight months i I’m not really anywhere close to where I i can be I think from a

23:01.68
Alyssa
oh yeah

23:13.53
Lukas Mann
Certainly from an uphill perspective and even downhill, but because I have spent so many, so many days in the mountains, I find my downhill skills are pretty fine. um So I get a ton of joy just like bombing down steep technical trails. And that was even in the race that kind of felt like one of my bigger four days and was able to pass people on that.

23:27.58
Alyssa
Oh yeah.

23:33.29
Lukas Mann
And so I would compare that a lot to like that same flow state you get when you’re climbing and you feel a little gripped and really like locked in on what you’re doing. um I really tend to enjoy this, this is probably like every, every person in this space is probably slightly ADHD, but I really love the like, that insane focus that you feel when you really just like, you know, there’s always the consequence involved. Like you trip on a route going fast down, Helen, it’s not very pleasant.

23:57.52
Alyssa
oh yeah it’s gonna hurt

23:58.77
Lukas Mann
Yeah. You know, you take a whip in the alpine, it’s really not pleasant. So, you know, like the introduction of potential consequences seems to, it lends itself to that kind of flow state where you’re really zoned in. Whereas I don’t find that on the uphill, you know, you’re not, you’re correct, it’s not that big of a deal. But um I really find I like the downhill a lot, which is weird because I think a lot of people really don’t, but it’s always just been a really enjoyable part of the sport to me.

24:23.02
Alyssa
Oh yeah, it’s gonna hurt.

24:24.17
Lukas Mann
And I think that’s part of why I love these big, steep technical trails we have around here is because you do get the opportunity to really fly down, which is really fun.

24:33.85
Alyssa
that I love that yeah that makes total sense and I am also a technical downhill lover like that is just the most fun part of any race to me and that I am also at least partially ADHD um and yeah it it is that extreme focus and it does have consequence for sure with the yeah similarly to that to the climbing and the scrambling I always find with

24:43.93
Lukas Mann
And

25:03.80
Alyssa
And maybe this is more experience that I still need, but with the Alpine aspect, there’s just a level of oddness that you have to have. And it’s like, I can kind of let my guard down once I’m out of whatever that danger zone is. Whereas trail running, definitely on some of the technical downhills, but I feel that my mind’s a lot more at ease in trail running because I don’t have to have that edge of like, oh, there’s a lot of exposure here.

25:27.53
Lukas Mann
Yeah.

25:31.14
Alyssa
Like, oh, if I, you know, This could be really consequential if I make a wrong move. um so that’s I always find when i when we we do a lot in the Alpine or do a lot where there’s a fair amount of consequence to um actions, when I go back to trail running, it’s like my mind can just relax of, okay, phew, I know what I’m doing. Probably not gonna fall off this cliff. We’re probably okay.

25:57.18
Lukas Mann
Yeah, I totally, totally resonate with that. And I think it’s, um, yeah, I was chatting with, uh, well, I think, yeah, we chatted before, but Adam Campbell and his phenomenal athlete up in squash. And we were chatting after the race and he was saying one of the reasons he loves endurance sports so much is, he’s a big mountain guy and, you know, climbs and skis and does everything way cooler than I do. But also hearing from him, from his perspective, um, The outlet of endurance athletics and training is crucial, he said, and I would agree. To some degree, it’s kind of crucial when you do go into the mountains because there are days when it just doesn’t make sense, um especially in the winter. But even in the summer, I mean, there’s always gonna be times where you don’t belong on that mountain and you either need to turn around or maybe don’t even go. And for people that, you know, like probably like us, who really like to move and struggle sitting around

26:56.74
Lukas Mann
Um, that can be a bit of a dangerous thing if you don’t have any other kind of sort of outlet. And if you’re only outlet is like, I need to get up high into the Alpine. And, and I, I do love that. And I certainly. That’s usually a pretty big goal, but, uh, I think what I’m, what I’m finding is there’s a lot of joy to be found in the, the, the, I guess the pursuit of speed or fitness or ability and in that sense, and not just. Can I go climb hard and do really cool, scary, exposed things in the mountains or ski really big lines? um But on the days where that doesn’t make sense, I can also go have a really hard workout up to the local grind and push hard and feel really satisfied and like I’ve spent my time well and used my energy well.

27:30.49
Alyssa
Yeah.

27:39.08
Lukas Mann
And so that’s this you know this period of time, the last handful of months. um has really opened up that world to me where I’ve started to see more of that. And you you know, you pay more attention on social media and you read more stuff and it’s like, oh, wow, there’s a really cool world here where it, you know, you don’t necessarily need to always be sending really hard to go, go really, you know, really enjoy yourself in the mountains at a, you know, but below a thousand meters or, you know, below the tree line. And that’s still totally fine. and And I, having the ability to know when

28:10.82
Lukas Mann
When it’s appropriate to do you know each of those activities I think it is a really cool skill that I’m starting to learn to appreciate.

28:19.44
Alyssa
Yeah, and i I’m glad that trail running has given you that alternative um because I think it is it’s very wise to understand that like yeah sometimes the mountains are just saying not today and to realize like oh I can get joy or or to feel that you can get joy um from other aspects or kind of get that that feeling of like yeah I had a good hard workout and I think the the thing I’ve always struggled with with mountain sports that’s a bit different than

28:54.56
Alyssa
trail running is that oftentimes with well with trail running a lot of times it’s like oh you go longer you go faster you add more vert you know there’s a lot of there’s things that you can increase um to increase the difficulty of it and unfortunately with a lot of mountain sports when you increase difficulty that often means increasing risk and and that’s the the tough part I think is that

29:07.17
Lukas Mann
Thank you.

29:16.23
Lukas Mann
Yes.

29:20.53
Alyssa
um like okay I’m gonna do the next hardest thing and oftentimes the next hardest thing means something that but that’s much more consequential and so I think it’s fun and not that this is a

29:31.23
Lukas Mann
yeah

29:36.81
Alyssa
you know, it’s turned into a little bit more of a raw, raw trail running, but I just think it’s great of your point of like, you could have that satisfaction of like, I did something hard and it felt really rewarding, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be that I was pushing a grade or I was taking on, um, you know, a riskier, uh, mountain endeavor.

29:57.39
Lukas Mann
the hand

29:57.32
Alyssa
So.

29:58.24
Lukas Mann
Totally. well in Like Steve’s talked about this and I think a lot of people have touched on this point. There’s a really big difference between simple and complex environments. And um when you are making a regular habit of being in complex environments for extended periods of time and pushing hard, and the chances that something will happen eventually do just go up.

30:11.55
Alyssa
Yes.

30:25.62
Lukas Mann
And there are obviously ways of mitigating that risk, but when the complexity is out of your control, um Yeah, I think there’s there’s definitely cause to to ask those questions of, you know, are there other things I can be doing with my time on the days where it maybe doesn’t make sense to be out there that are still really worthwhile and and maybe in the long run actually contribute to my safety in the alpine anyway, which I think is the case with this, you know, endurance with endurance sports and trail running and in particular.

30:49.76
Alyssa
yeah

30:54.44
Lukas Mann
And so if I definitely would, I would definitely echo that, like there’s You know, I, I was mentioning this before, but yeah, two days ago, I went out on a really fun, it’s not super long. It’s like 10, I think it’s 10 kilometers.

31:08.13
Alyssa
Yeah.

31:08.77
Lukas Mann
So what is that? Like six miles, like pretty, pretty, sure um, 1100 meters of earth.

31:10.56
Alyssa
Six miles here.

31:14.62
Lukas Mann
So 30, 3,500 feet of gain, not too crazy, but it’s. beautiful Beautiful, rude bit of bushrocking and then this awesome long ridge traverses with third, fourth and like maybe a little bit of fifth involved and then and you get to bomb back down to the car. and I remember the first time I did it and it took, we weren’t trying to push hard, but it took five and a half hours and we loved it and it was you know a great half day out. um But then I went up again two days ago. This is maybe two years after the first time I did it. And we went car to car in like two hours and forty minutes or something like that and and and didn’t really feel like we were pushing that hard.

31:48.65
Alyssa
Thank

31:49.70
Lukas Mann
And it was really incredible to realize, oh, we think we had a long day, like Sunday, beautiful day, went to church, had coffee, went and dumped in the lake, had dinner, drove up, left the trailhead at 6.30 and we’re back at the car by like just after nine and were home by 10. That was mind-blowing and that was really cool. And it really you know it. It really hammered home the point that like wow, it contributes to these really awesome adventures where I don’t necessarily have to go.

32:16.61
Alyssa
you

32:20.79
Lukas Mann
I mean, yes, it’s the Alpine. There’s maybe a bit of risk, but it’s summer and the rock was solid and it wasn’t really a very risky route. um It would have been easy to go do something with a fair bit more exposure and risk and whatever, but it was also just as satisfying to go do a route that I’ve done a couple times, but do it way faster. And that was really cool too.

32:39.73
Alyssa
Yeah, no, I love that. I think it’s so easy, especially in the exposure that we have to so many people, um, to get caught up in like the bigger, faster, higher game and to check back in with like, no, what is satisfying to me? What is meaningful, meaningful um, in this moment?

33:01.65
Lukas Mann
Totally.

33:02.33
Alyssa
And it does not have to be always like pushing that. Yeah. edge.

33:07.19
Lukas Mann
ah

33:07.67
Alyssa
But yeah so you trained, trained running, you’re ready to go. How did the race go for you?

33:19.74
Lukas Mann
Yeah, great question. The race was really awesome. I loved it. It was a really stinking cool atmosphere. It was a beautiful place. I don’t know if you’ve been to that area of the Rockies. It’s kind of like out here on the coast, we have the Sea to Sky Highway that goes from Vancouver up to Whistler and um you kind of get the sea on one side and the mountains on the other and it’s phenomenal. well the crow’s nest pass is kind of like prairie to sky, like it’s it’s right on that fault line where in the Rockies kind of jut up out of the the plains and it’s beautiful in a very different way um and so the the route follows it’s I think technically like three separate mountains or at least three big climbs now it is one two yeah no it’s three three separate peaks that i’m that kind of border along that that that line of the the

34:08.33
Lukas Mann
prairies into the Rockies. um So that the area was amazing. It was really neat to be able to race there. um I was definitely, I went into the race a little sick and hadn’t slept a ton and was definitely not 100%. So um that led to learning some things along the way that I wouldn’t have known otherwise, which was still really cool. um But yeah, I ended up, I think I think I ran a pretty decent race. It was my first race since I was 12. So it definitely was a whole new experience getting to do that. And especially in such an incredible race. It wasn’t like you know going and running your local 10K. It was a pretty pretty special environment and a lot of really impressive athletes traveled from all over to come do it. So I really enjoyed

34:53.17
Lukas Mann
I really enjoyed the competitive field. I really liked that. I think there’s a lot of it’s easy to sign up for your local trail race and go pretty well. But to be in a place where you’ve got all these really impressive athletes that are either pro or semi pro that come from all over the world to do that was really cool to witness that level of performance right in front of your eyes was really cool. um And the place, like I mentioned, was awesome. And the organizers were really great. um the yeah I mean like I won’t give you like a super detailed breakdown I think you know you learn pretty quick like don’t go out too hard and I think I probably want to maybe slightly too hard um I think I was I was all right I didn’t blow up but it was definitely a little a little too fast um but it’s funny because it’s this big funnel as I’m sure many trailers are you know playing

35:42.55
Alyssa
It’s so hard not to go out fast, yeah.

35:44.50
Lukas Mann
Big funnel. And then it’s like this single track conga line for, you know, God knows how long up, you know, with like a thousand meters. So it’s like, you do kind of want to solidify your place a little bit because you can’t pass very easily on this long uphill conga. But um anyway, did that. And then it’s, it’s, yeah, it’s three separate mountains. So it’s a lot of each, each climb is basically a thousand meters. So it’s like a big climb and then a big drop and then a big climb and then a big drop and another. So you kind of have to pace yourself for that. um I definitely, I was coughing a lot. I was definitely not in tip top physical condition, but you know, all in all, it was really great. I definitely had, I found that the biggest learning curve for me was um just dealing with hydration. I’ve, you know, I think the longest training run I had done was maybe four and a half hours.

36:31.94
Lukas Mann
um But the Minotaur for me ended up being like seven and a half, eight-ish.

36:37.07
Lukas Mann
I can’t remember my exact time. I think watch, it was bright right around that eight hour mark. And hydration became an issue and the aid stations are pretty sparse just because it’s how technical it is.

36:50.29
Alyssa
Yeah.

36:52.87
Lukas Mann
So, you know, I drank a lot of water before and then I started and had a liter with me, but it’s two hours from the start to the first aid station. So it’s, you know, you kind of drink that liter pretty quick. And then I would drink at every aid station, I’d drink at least a liter of electrolytes. and then i’d take another liter of water but even then i talked to a lot of people afterwards and everyone was running out of water it was just kind of this it was this hot dry rockies day and you know you’ve got hours and hours between aid stations and you’re kind of just going through it all so um that was definitely i would i don’t know what i would do i’d probably just find a way to carry more water um that would be a probably a pretty big consideration

37:32.16
Lukas Mann
um Fueling went well. i found My body didn’t like throw anything up. it wasn’t Nothing felt too weird. I think I got enough and nutrition in. And then definitely had some cramping near the end that that slowed me down a fair bit. I think it might have been… I don’t know if it like i wasn’t i don’t think I was overly dehydrated and I don’t think I was under fueled. I think it was maybe just partly just like my body was a little sick and I was pushing pretty hard. They’re definitely not not my greatest couple of days. and so Um, that was fine.

38:02.32
Lukas Mann
And you know really at the end of the day, it was just great to go finish and um, I really really loved it like the definitely definitely the last hour or two was definitely more than suffering but um But everything else was really really awesome. I really loved it Yeah

38:16.69
Alyssa
That’s great. Yeah, it sounds like, I mean, that’s pretty far in between aid stations. I would say, yeah, probably the leader in half, at least. um Yeah, which is, I mean, ah gosh, it’s like, that is forever the battle of, oh, I really don’t want to carry that extra half leader. And then you’re like 30 minutes from the aid station going, I am almost, I am like completely out. I have like a sip left and man, I wish I’d, brought that bottle.

38:47.29
Alyssa
um

38:47.63
Lukas Mann
Yeah, totally. It was a tough race, like 500 started and 400 finished. um So 100 dropped, which was, I mean, I don’t know much, but that seemed like it seemed like a lot of people to drop.

38:59.25
Alyssa
You know, that’s a fair amount for yeah. Was it hotter than it usually is or expected?

39:06.35
Lukas Mann
It was really wild. It had snowed. ah It was crazy.

39:07.93
Alyssa
Oh, wow.

39:09.36
Lukas Mann
It snowed like a foot and a half the week before.

39:11.44
Alyssa
Oh, yeah, I remember you sent me Yeah.

39:12.79
Lukas Mann
Yeah, it was really quite something. And then everyone was getting ready for a big snow race, and then it all melted like two days before. and So it was completely dry. We didn’t, I don’t think I even touched snow. Which blew my mind. I did not expect that. And it’s just the Rockies are a crazy place. but um yeah i think i ended up like 186 out of 500 starters i was like yeah you know felt felt all right you know i definitely lots of room for improvement but didn’t feel embarrassing at all so that was uh it was fun you know it was just a really i kind of went into it with the

39:34.38
Alyssa
nice

39:43.76
Lukas Mann
You know, low bar if I’d like to finish and not like to stumble my way across the finish line and feel all right and feel like I run a decent race. And, you know, there were definitely things I could have done differently um and we’ll learn from, but not, no glaring like, Oh my goodness, that was terrible.

39:58.73
Alyssa
Nice.

39:58.94
Lukas Mann
Um, everything was kind of ah ah good or okay. Could have been improved.

40:03.55
Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think, I mean, you came into it with, uh, definitely some challenging circumstances and sickness and everything. So yeah, I was psyched to see that you did it and had, you know, seemed like you had a great time. Um, do you think you’d do it again?

40:21.14
Lukas Mann
100%. Yeah, not a question. um In fact, it’s like I’ve been talking to a couple other people and they were like, this is kind of the only race we run.

40:23.66
Alyssa
Nice.

40:29.18
Lukas Mann
like We don’t really do any other races. as We kind of just like you know enjoy the mountains and you know train all year long by just hanging out in the mountains.

40:34.45
Alyssa
Okay.

40:36.68
Lukas Mann
And then we come and run the Minotaur and it’s really awesome. And then we wait until the next year and I get it because I think there’s um I will be doing, I think, a couple other races this year. But I think for me, there’s nothing that really substitutes being high. I do really enjoy running through the forest and really enjoying that. But um if you know the thought of doing a 50K on trails at low elevation, even with even a bit of hurt, but if it doesn’t involve that kind of technical aspect, it is just it doesn’t speak to me as much. I totally still get it, but I think

41:13.51
Lukas Mann
Minotaur is really unique in that sense, where it’s short enough that you can really push and hammer it, I think, pretty hard. And I saw that with you know the really fast athletes that are just like going. um but It’s also long enough and technical enough that like you’ve really got heavier wits about you, and it’s not it’s certainly not to be underestimated. And there’s definitely, like I would say, um it would not be a stretch to say there were some class three en route. like It’s pretty and And with some exposure, like you can’t screw up. So um that was really cool. I really enjoyed that. I found that my strengths are definitely moving through technical training and being able to move downhill well. So um that was all great. And then I am learning that you know that there’s a lot of, and it makes sense, like there’s a lot of room for improvement on being able to move uphill quickly and sustain that for 3,000 meters above. So that that would definitely be my biggest point of improvement hopefully for next year is

42:06.62
Lukas Mann
um I didn’t ever feel out of my element, but definitely felt like the ups were just long. um And so, you know, to be expected, considering I haven’t been training for that long, but definitely realized, you know, what I learned from other people is that I didn’t.

42:13.05
Alyssa
yeah

42:18.43
Alyssa
Yeah.

42:21.02
Lukas Mann
Yeah, I think I was always able to kind of maintain and push hard on the ridges and the downs, but those ups just kind of kill.

42:29.71
Alyssa
Well, I can tell you ah she’s nine years into racing. I’m still working on my uphills. So there’s, yeah, there’s always, and I think that’s the fun part.

42:38.57
Lukas Mann
yeah

42:42.30
Alyssa
It’s always, it’s always pieces where you’re like, I can get a little faster here.

42:43.49
Lukas Mann
Yeah.

42:45.70
Alyssa
I can work on my uphill, like work on my power. I can’t work on my downhill. So yeah, it’s fun to always have those pieces and then the training lends itself to like, yeah, I get to do this awesome mountain to get to work on my uphill.

42:59.74
Lukas Mann
What’s the biggest, biggest vert you’ve done?

43:00.30
Alyssa
So

43:03.31
Alyssa
Oh, um, yeah,

43:05.17
Lukas Mann
I know you’ve done some long races, so I know that you know over the long distance, you can definitely rack up some vert.

43:09.95
Alyssa
yeah, I actually, so I think the biggest thing I’ve done. Well, yeah, we’ll see. So in a hundred miles or the biggest for I’ve done was your a, which is, um, let me pull up my meters to feet.

43:20.80
Lukas Mann
Yeah.

43:28.28
Alyssa
Uh, I think it was,

43:34.21
Alyssa
almost 13,000 meters yeah about 42,000 feet um yeah yeah it’s a lot the last so the last climb is uh about eight and a half k and 26 2700 meters it’s just straight up and straight back down

43:37.50
Lukas Mann
Yeah, that’s a lot that’s a lot of hurt.

43:59.82
Lukas Mann
Wow, yeah that’s a bit crazy. Wow, yeah, that’s a lot.

44:05.32
Alyssa
At a mile it’s like, wow, I…

44:05.64
Lukas Mann
of

44:08.68
Lukas Mann
you know

44:09.84
Alyssa
Yeah, it was actually the downhill that started just absolutely killing. Your quads are just destroyed and you’re like, I don’t want to go down anymore.

44:17.69
Lukas Mann
hello start to finish, that’s like 30, how many hours?

44:19.75
Alyssa
help

44:22.62
Alyssa
That took me 30… It was either 35 or 37. I think it was 35, yeah.

44:29.72
Lukas Mann
Yeah. one yeah

44:32.25
Alyssa
Yeah, it is a long time. I think the cutoff is 55 hours.

44:36.72
Lukas Mann
oh

44:37.09
Alyssa
It’s long, yeah. It’s When you start on a 100 violin, when you are like the top 5, top 10, is going almost into a second night, it’s a long it’s a long race.

44:52.79
Lukas Mann
Yes, that’s crazy Interesting I didn’t know that that’s really interesting

44:53.75
Alyssa
Yeah. It’s interesting because hard rock, I mean, is right in that area too. And hard rock is, um, I think that average elevation is higher. So it stays higher, but it has almost 10,000 feet less climbing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you want to, oh, you should do the year eight 50 or the hundred either one. I think that’d be right up your alley.

45:19.91
Lukas Mann
I am. Yeah, neat.

45:22.92
Alyssa
Yeah.

45:23.67
Lukas Mann
Maybe I’ll have to add the list.

45:25.54
Alyssa
Yeah. Well, Lucas, thank you for sharing your experiences on this. Anything else you’d like to add on or things that you learned?

45:38.36
Lukas Mann
You know, I think… It was, it was a lot of fun. I just think there’s, you know, if there’s, there’s anyone listening that’s wondering, oh, you know, should I, should I do this? Should I, should I get into this? It’s, um, I think you kind of just get into it however you want to. Like I, I don’t, I don’t anticipate becoming a, you know, a a really competitive ultra runner in making this my whole thing. But I do love how it fits into so much of what I love. And if it really lends itself to, like we talked about earlier, it lends itself to safety in the mountains. It certainly lends itself to bigger adventures in a shorter time frame, which is always always a win. um But I also think if, you know, I come from a pretty competitive sports background, and I would describe myself as relatively competitive, and it’s a really

46:22.68
Lukas Mann
It feels like a really healthy way to let you know that it’s competitive but it’s also so. I mean you know that it’s super hyper-competitive but it’s also so wonderful and the people are so great and you know the after parties and the time you spend with people even out on the courses. I haven’t run a marathon on flat ground, but I, from everyone I talked to, it’s kind of just like, everyone’s in like a big long mass and you’re kind of just like running along and like, and then everyone leaves and you’re done. It’s whatever. Whereas it felt like such a difference, it felt like so much more of a communal activity rather than just a big competition, which I really loved. And so I think, yeah, if you’re looking for a.

47:00.38
Lukas Mann
for a way to kind of get out of your comfort zone and push without necessarily taking on a ton more ah objective risk or or pushing um what you would think would be like your safety limits. I think it’s a really wonderful way to be in beautiful places and still be out in the mountains, but not necessarily feel like you have to be, like you said, pushing a great higher or skiing a little steeper or climbing a little more exposed. you know There’s room for that if that’s your thing, but it’s another really cool outlet for mountain sports, mountain activities that doesn’t necessarily necessitate that.

47:31.26
Alyssa
I love that. Yeah, I can tell you from experience, my first marathon, I was like, why is everyone so grumpy?

47:37.88
Lukas Mann
Yeah.

47:38.52
Alyssa
No one likes sharing snacks with me or is, you know, cheering me on.

47:43.43
Lukas Mann
yeah yeah

47:44.16
Alyssa
I was like, everyone’s in their own little world just like trying to beat me.

47:46.70
Lukas Mann
I can hear a little I get really pigheaded about road running, but I just like I’m always just like, I don’t know why. Life’s short, there’s lots of trails. I mean I understand for people that like not everyone, not everyone gets to live in a place where they have access to the mountains. So I totally understand that. And it’s a huge privilege to be in an area where I can. But if you have the the you know the blessing of being able to you know look into your backyard and see mountains, I just don’t understand for the life of me why you want to go run on roads just go out there be out there it doesn’t have to be a big summit or anything but just being out in nature and getting away from kind of the hustle and bustle is such a it’s it’s so much more than just a physical thing it’s mental and emotional and spiritual and physical it’s all it’s everything kind of wrapped up it feels very holistic and i think that’s how i would

48:32.78
Lukas Mann
probably the best word I would use to describe trail running mountain running is like, it’s, it is very holistic. Like it’s relational. You get to know people really well. It’s very much physical, but, um, it certainly feels spiritual when you’re out there in the mountains. And especially when you’re alone or you’re fighting hard at the end of every race, like it’s, it’s just a different, it’s a different kind of activity. And I really, really love it.

48:54.22
Alyssa
awesome well I’m glad I brought another to the dark side. ha ha ah well Where can people find you if they want to follow along with your adventures?

49:00.51
Lukas Mann
I can tell.

49:08.68
Lukas Mann
Yeah, Instagram’s easy, I find. I post a lot of stuff on my Instagram. My name is Lucas Mann. Instagram is Exploromann, made it in grade six, never changed it. Someone asked me the other day, they were like, why is it Exploromann?

49:20.28
Alyssa
Nice.

49:23.04
Lukas Mann
And I was like, I actually think in my little grade six head, I remember vividly being like, I don’t wanna be like everyone else and just make it my name. And I really like to explore. So I’m gonna be an Exploro Mann. And I’ve like multiple times thought of changing it and been like, no, I’m going to leave it because it’s funny and I just don’t care. um So anyway, but ah I feel like it’s become a little bit of its own thing. So anyway, that’s why my Instagram and I’m on Strop and whatever. but

49:52.44
Alyssa
That is That is very adorable. And also, you’re six I mean I feel like a lot of sixth graders are like, I don’t know, a lot more crude and not as forward thinking. And that worked out really well for ah your last name kind of tying into it. So good job sixth grader, Lucas.

50:08.75
Lukas Mann
yeah yeah Yeah, the fact that I feel okay still having that is definitely what I actually, I think my email at the time was coolsnowboarderdudeatgmail.com, so it didn’t engage as well, so I’ve updated that a little bit, but thankfully the Instagram has stuck around and it doesn’t doesn’t feel too embarrassing yet.

50:14.53
Alyssa
yeah

50:21.98
Alyssa
Bye. Nice. Awesome. Well, Lucas, thank you so much for joining me today. And thank you all for listening to the uphill athlete podcast. If you can rate, review and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, that helps us help more endurance athletes out there. It’s not just one, but a community. We are uphill athletes.