Training for Trail Running: Crewing and Pacing

00:00.14
Alyssa
Hi everyone, welcome to the uphill athlete podcast we are continuing on with our trail running podcast series and talking about pacing and crewing as those are super vital components of trail running. Today I’m thrilled to bring on a good friend of mine, a badass pacer. He has helped me in a successful canyons 100 and he is here to talk to us all things pacing. He’s also super knowledgeable about running and just a fun chat so nick thanks so much for being on.

00:42.52
Nic
That’s quite the intro and thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure.

00:43.89
Alyssa
Of course. So first of all, where are you coming to us from and how did you get your start in this silly sport. As we were just talking off script. Um, it’s a silly sport that doesn’t really matter. But it’s a lot of fun ultra running.

01:04.76
Nic
Yeah, so I’m Australian but I’ve been in London UK for almost ten years now and I’m leaving London permanently on Monday so you’re getting me in the last week here I was always an athlete. Grew up swimming and grew up outdoors playing field hockey so I was running a lot but never ran and then kind of when I moved over here in my mid 20s I just wanted to get exercise to kind of explore the city. So I just started running. I didn’t like the gym so I just went out the door. Go for a run and then one thing led to another and I started doing that more started finding things and then stumbled across a Youtube documentary about the western states 100 which became a bit of an obsession as you know after having me pace you for 7 hours but kind of fell into the sport, started researching things jumped up to races jumped up to longer distances very quickly and just fell in love with the sport. I’ve traveled a lot, met some wonderful people and just very quickly just became a part of my life and something that I yeah, love to do and yeah is very much part of who I am. Again, as silly as it is. It’s great. People have great opportunities to travel and just have fun adventures really which is what it’s all about for me and why I’ve stayed in the sport through ups and downs and injuries and the likes that we all tend to have.

02:20.50
Alyssa
Ah, it’s awesome and I really should just do a separate podcast of your history or knowledge of the history of western states because I have never known more about the race. I feel like I haven’t even half tapped into what you know and it was a ton of fun to have your knowledge as we were actually on quite a few sections of the race themselves. So that’s a future episode. But the reason why we have Nick on is that Nick first of all is such a huge member of the trail running community. He will just come to the UC and come crew and pace and help at Western States, at Canyons and so he has a really in-depth knowledge of kind of the behind the scenes workings of ultra running and so he’s here to talk to us about pacing. So first off Nick what is a pacer? What is that?

03:20.80
Nic
So I think the origin of pacing is it dates back to like sort of, particularly the one hundred mile distance predominantly in America. I think it’s mainly a north american thing you will see races outside of America have them like Australia and New Zealand but it’s very much centralized to North America it sort of goes back to the long one hundred mile races where you could be 24 hours, 30 hours in a race and then there’s quiet elements where it’s let’s say western states is a point to point one hundred mile there’s some sections which are quite exposed same with races like hard rock where there’s like long stretches you’re in high line environments. There’s lots of danger. There’s trying to find the course and you’re often in the middle of nowhere often with no cell reception and in a race. So the pacer is with someone. They’re not an official part of the race. They’ve not signed up to race. They don’t get any medals. They don’t pay any fees but they are signed on often. You know nowadays we’ll sign a disclaimer and wear a bib that says pacer. So they’re officially attached to a runner. There’s obviously lots of rules and things that you’ll get into but that person generally is an accompaniment for safety now. So that’s during the night so it’s an extra pair of eyes. It’s just making sure things are safe. It’s navigating things where maybe course markings have come away or you’ve never been there before and it’s night and you’re climbing up a mountain is it the right way and there’s maybe not a lot of people around or you’ve got a long stretch between you know, aid points or where there’s cell reception probably bad and maybe didn’t have your phones.

04:48.31
Nic
Things on your watch to guide you. That’s the sort of origin of it. Um, like I said recently as the race has got more competitive the pace. It would also be an element of competition. So having a pacer. So for the front and the faster runners having a pacer to push them and help with strategy and mind games and other runners and all those things all within the rules within the race. But that pace today can make a big difference and you know get someone to as an example, push someone to run up a hill when its hard and they want to walk and you know try and chase someone that’s in first and yeah, there’s multiple cases and stories of mind blowing paces and you know people contributing their extra push at the end of a race due to a pacer. But the origin is very much a safety part and that’s still very prominent these days if some runners are out there for thirty, forty hours and you know depending on the race in the day they could be in the night twice. You see bears, you see cougars, you have all these things and you know as we know anything could happen when we’re out there on a run. You could fall and you get injured so there’s an extra element of safety and particularly for races that don’t have mandatory kits so you may have less things there so you have someone that’s physically there to guide you. But you’re very much attached to the person running. They also have to abide by the rules and regulations of the race and they’re all different but essentially having a pacer there if they do things which are, you know, outside the race rules that can disqualify the runner. So there’s a big responsibility to that.

06:20.50
Alyssa
That’s fantastic. I mean you pretty much covered all of it really. The safety factor is such a key component and I like to think of them as a friend that becomes your brain and reminds you to eat snacks and stay on track is another another piece of it. But an interesting component and you touched on this with a pacer, is that pacers are not a universal part of ultra running so where do you see Pacers not allowed because they are not allowed in ah, many parts of the world.

06:58.78
Nic
So there are very few races in Europe that allow pacers. There may be 1 or 2 but generally it’s not um, generally pacers are in the hundred mile distance, some hundred kilometer races. But it’s generally hundred miles or above. It’s generally thought that races you know distances show them that they don’t need pacers and then there’s other things like logistics and the amount of bodies on a course and that sort of cost benefit. But traditionally it’s the races like western states, Leadville, hardrock, Cascade Crest, HURT those are big hundred miles and yeah there’s plenty of other ones that would have pacers as well. Don’t see them all sort of the 24 hour races like the track races or those enclosed ones. So it’s generally those long distance hundred miles in the mountains. Um, occasionally some 100k’s races in Europe generally make you have a whole bunch of Mandatory Kit so all these things that you would just have to have with you. In some ways it makes it safer so that if you’re stopped for say 2 hours at a mountain pass it someone can safely evacuate you so there’s that element there. A lot of some races have permitting issues which means that there’s only a certain amount of runners through a certain area so that would depend on whether races if it’s a point where you would traditionally have a pacer so and generally anywhere after the 50 to 60 mile mark I think generally 60 miles but some races will say 50, so that all those factors there is generally again, you know if you’re looking for a race with a pacer. It is generally a north american hundred mile in the mountains.

08:27.25
Alyssa
Totally and I think that that’s ah, a very funny point if it’s contention but just joking amongst Europeans and Americans where the Europeans will kind of make fun of the Americans for getting to have a safety blanket of another human running with them. But I also have had incredible experiences with pacers, had a ton of fun, have done European races where I don’t get them and wish that I’d had a friend out there. So there’s definitely pluses and minuses I think to both. I think that it’s really a beautiful thing in the European races where you are asked to handle yourself in a different manner. You don’t have to guess you have the safety kit but you don’t have the mental boost of a friend who’s coming to run with you and so I think that’s a different challenge in its own manner. I think it’s a very worthy challenge. I do also think that having a pacer is a great safety measure. Especially if it might be your first hundred or it might be something where you’re tackling a bigger challenge. Also I think from a strategy standpoint pacer as you said can really push so they are just different elements, different pieces that make things challenging or easier and so yeah, pacing is just kind of a fun aspect of trail running that you can dabble and use in different ways.

09:59.59
Nic
I think it’s worth mentioning as well that you know whilst pacing is, you know, very popular, it’s an optional thing. Each race will sort of state if you’re allowed to have a pacer, how many generally be you know from let’s say it’s a sixty mile race generally you’d have 1 for twenty miles one for twenty miles all the rules are difference but there are people that have you know some of the best runners in the world don’t like using pacers and have done incredible things without pacers equally some that love a pacer and and sometimes that will change race to race depending on what you need at the time how you’re feeling. Um, any number of factors. So I think it’s very much a north american flavor. It’s different to racing in Europe and it just comes a thing over there and you know some yeah some people embrace it. Some people don’t and it’s just again, it’s an optional extra if that’s what you choose and and doing could be for competitive reasons. It could be for safety reasons. It could be just someone to come and hang out with you when you’re going for a really long run.

10:55.98
Alyssa
Totally no, that’s a great point. I do think also there are some people who just yeah, like you said, don’t use pacers because it’s almost a point of pride for them of like oh yeah, not gonna use a pacer just hey it’s ah it’s a huge ask of family friends, etc and they just don’t want to add that extra burden, add that extra element of coordination and organization so you can definitely be in a race that allows pacers and not take on a pacer but with that being said as we are considering our race. What should you be looking for in a pacer and let’s take it of what you should be looking for if you’re say going for a top spot a podium etc and maybe what you should be looking for in a pacer if this is your first hundred and you are just getting to the finish line which is a very amazing and admirable goal.

11:54.54
Nic
Yes, that’s a really interesting question. I think a lot of times people are trying to find a pacer at the last minute and again we can. We can speak to that one. So it’s not always sometimes you’ve got people that you know and you can sort of really have a clear list of what you want and what you need and then find a perfect match but often it’s not like that in a perfect world. I guess we start from the safety perspective if you want someone that’s capable in the mountains or on the conditions. Generally you want them. I think I know we’ve spoken about this before that some people would probably. Yeah, one school of thought would be that they don’t need to be able to run one hundred miles or be that competent because they’re running a small section as we’ve kind of chatted offline before. You still need to have a fair capability. So someone that is capable. It can handle running at a different pace and handle a bunch of different conditions. Different challenges and still can have that capacity to support and to guide. There are plenty of cases where there’s someone who’s been mismatched and has someone that isn’t capable and say maybe it gets cold or maybe it’s you know, harsh conditions that say hardrock when you’re at fourteen thousand feet or you know high altitude or just sketchy weather. And you’ve got someone that can’t look after themselves and they become a liability the same as any sort of outing in the backcountry. We’ve got someone that doesn’t have that minimum standard so generally a pacer should be able to run the distance comfortably, be out on their feet or out without less support comfortably.

13:26.64
Nic
Um, again doesn’t need to be as fast as the same person because you know even when you’re getting to the top end of the sport they have run sixty miles you’re jumping in for 20 in theory. You know you don’t need to be their level then that will depend and you sort of need to guide that. But it’s not definitive. You need to be the same speed and you have to run the same distance and then you know is it someone, do you want someone who’s super chatting and like are you really scared and do you really find you have low patches. So do you need someone to build you up? Are you someone? That’s like would run through rules and this gets reckless. You need someone to be like hey let’s chill out. Let’s calm down so someone can moderate your energy. Do you want someone that just knows the course so that someone this lives needs someone to guide so I don’t have to think I can switch off. Do you need someone that’s really going to be on your ass about something knowing that you’re going to get cranky. You’re not going to want to take through so someone that just needs to mum you the whole time and say take this, take this, take this I don’t care. And that will depend on the race and I’ve been in a race where someone like you know, crewing for an elite athlete who said I will get to mile sixty. I will tell you who I need and you know all the needs of the race. There’s always other things there and as you sort of take it to that elite competitive level. Do you want someone that’s going to generally push you and look after you because there are instances when you need to push someone to get them to be running when they want to walk you should be getting them hey when you get up and go other times. It’s sort of an objective person to say like hey I’m pretty sure your knees blown out and that we could finish, but is it what you want to do for the rest of your year, in your career, is it worth doing this and having that sort of objective support there and you have to communicate that to crew and other people. Um, but generally from the front end you want someone that’s going to motivate you that I’m going to push you. That’s not going to let you just go like oh I’m feeling, I’m feeling tired I want to walk and is like well you came here to race. So let’s go and again different people like different things and I think as you sort of get into the sport and depending on the type of race. Yeah, now you’ll sort of guide. You have a gauge of what you need from someone and another part of that which I’m sure we’ll cover is like giving your pacer and crew briefing these instructions like hey I need this from you so when I say I want to walk and I’m tired I don’t want to eat food, that’s not an option for you. You know that type of thing. So again, it’s very much your choosing again. Say the same as going out into doing like a really high alpine adventure or something with someone you’re choosing someone who’s a good partner for you and that is going to get you to the end safely and achieve all your goals along the way ideally and be able to adapt and do that so again quite a broad summary of it all. But I guess that’s the nature of the sport.

15:58.89
Alyssa
No, that’s perfect. I think you touched on a couple of really key points that I’d like to expand on and I think the first one is you need someone who’s capable of doing the distance and it’s not a strain on them.

16:17.50
Alyssa
I think what is underestimated is how mentally taxing pacing someone is, especially someone who’s having a rough time. I’ve paced before and some of my runners had a really rough nausea issue Or heat issues and so it’s like it’s taking a lot of emotional and mental energy for me to be caring for them and also making sure that I’m getting in some calories and you know have been awake the whole night and so don’t underestimate that even though the distance might feel very feasible. You are taking on significantly more mental strain because you are looking after someone and I think that’s something that’s really key is like you’re not just going along on a fun little run with your friend like you are also very responsible for that runner and so I would not take that lightly as a pacer. I don’t take it lightly as a pacer. I think the other part and I can get into a specific story is um, yeah, be really clear with your pacers of how you want them to speak with you. We’ll get into it more specifically. Pre-race meetings but there was one time I thought this was so great during canyons where I was really tired of eating, which anyone at mile eighty is just like yeah I’m kind of done eating and you said to me and I have said this to other people “I don’t care if you don’t want to eat. You can have a nice meal when you’re done. This is your job, eat your food and I was like okay done.”

17:43.15
Nic
Yeah, so.

17:57.83
Alyssa
You need people to tell you because as you’re running, you’re super tired. You’re super fatigued like you’re not thinking straight and so I think it’s really good. It’s funny how quickly we kind of knew each other. That was exactly what I needed that tough love in that moment and you were able to deliver that. But yeah, definitely the right thing to say at the right time. I will also add that as much as we love our significant others. Our family members etc that can actually be really detrimental to have. Your partner running with you or a family member because they are not always as good about pushing you when you need to be pushed or being objective in their observations of you. For example, I don’t necessarily ask my partner or my family to come with pacing towards the end of the race because I need someone who has a further distance from me and is just like hey I know that you can do this. I know you’re sad and tired not that’s really sad, but I know you’re tired and fatigued and I don’t care like you need to keep going because this is the goal you have. Sometimes when you have someone who doesn’t you know, who loves you, is related to you Etc. They’re not quite as good. They’re like oh I’m so sorry you feel bad here, lay down and rest and so I think that it’s crucial to know who is who can be in key roles for you? Um, so not necessarily just the person who’s going to coddle you but the person who’s going to challenge you.

19:42.64
Nic
Yeah there’s some really good points and I think yeah as you said at the sort of the start is whilst scenes. Maybe you’re running twenty miles with someone if you’re accruing a hundred miles and you’re part of the team. You start at 5 am or you’re up at 3am in say western states or canyons when it starts. They start about about the same time like really early in the morning you’re up. Before that you’re doing all the things you’re getting to the start you’re seeing your runner leave western states, you’re driving a ton of miles to get to really remote stations and you’re chasing around canyons. There wasn’t a lot of crew spots again. Very remote. So a lot of driving around and getting to places and bringing all your stuff down. You’re on your feet the entire day you’re in the heat you’re blasted with the heat you’re standing around often. You don’t get great opportunities to eat and have snacks and all those things so you’re still whilst you’re jumping in essentially fresh to run. You’ve been on your feet for 10 hours, 15 hours, 20 hours you haven’t had great food necessarily um, you’ve been in the heat or in the cold you have to deal with that stuff and then you’re just jumping in so you need to be after there’s a minimum standard and I think people sort of do underestimate sometimes and now that element to that is like if I’m a pacer in the race it’s not my race or it’s not about me and also that means that no one cares if I’m having a bad time. My job is very much a very specific job the same way your job is to eat your food every 20 minutes. My job is to make you work hard and do that. So if I roll my angle like I’ve run a I’ve paced someone with a torn calf before it’s like.

21:09.20
Nic
Yeah I’m fine and you know it’s if I fall over and bang my knee, I keep running. It’s fine. Um, you know if I need to go to the bathroom you’re keeping running it’s on me to manage me or the pacer to manage themselves and put on a brave face and not show any of those problems because I’ve done that before. I’ve had pacers I’ve been sometimes worrying about them and the same reason sort of Matt Carpenter and Karl Meltzer so in those people said they don’t want paces and they’re you know done incredible things is they don’t want to be worrying about someone else and even having 2% of their energy about someone that can’t keep up or whatever reason they just want to focus on them and that self so that’s hard thing to do when you’re a not running the same pace. You would normally do maybe you’re running behind them. Maybe it’s awkward. Maybe your legs are a bit sore or maybe you like my legs are cramping now because I know I didn’t eat enough food and this person’s trying to make me run up a hill or maybe I’m feeling awful. But I can’t tell them I’m feeling awful and you have to do all that stuff and that takes a lot of maturity and a lot to just keep things down there. Be positive, say the right things and also know that that is your job and you have to run that and you know you don’t really get the excuse soap again. But I know that when I’m running and I’ve got a pay so I can say whatever I want and they’re also going to tell me that. Stop being a baby and get on with it. So it is that distance and again, there’s examples of people where spouses and partners have been great pacers and you know that there’s a role. It’s very much I’m not your spouse for these twenty miles and then other times there’s examples of people just because again we’re choosing to do a really hard thing. It’s a choice we’re paying money to do.

22:41.49
Nic
Showing up with our goals and dreams but things get really hard even if you win the race. It’s always gonna be hard. There’s gonna be efforts there and there’s to be those low points and there’s always a way out if you want to fire them on. There’s always something to do and you know we will naturally try and complain and get someone to give us some comfort and sympathy and you know we’ve all been there where you’re seeing someone just. Ah, don’t want to go anyone like okay, it’s okay, you can stop and occasionally if it’s a medical issue and that you know if you’ve had clear guidelines pre-race you can make that call but for the most part it’s just letting people get away with it and you want people in your corner. They go like, no, we’re going to walk to the next day station. You’re gonna feel better. Eat some food, drink some coke, let’s get walking. You can quit at the next day station and then you just keep postponing that.

23:23.00
Alyssa
No, that’s 100% true I think one of the wisest things I was ever told. John Samuelson who started the Hurt 100 told me before I ran Hurt for the first time he said in every hundred miler there’s always a point your brain will tell you that you are too broken, injured, tired etc to keep going and it’s your job not to listen to that and it does get better. There’s definitely been hundreds where I haven’t thought that but for a lot of them. There’s always that moment we like. I don’t know about this like my feet are a mess. It’s like it turns out your feet are fine and so I think a pacer can be that objective brain. That’s like they’re totally fine. What are they talking about? So I think that’s a super key element to it. Um, yeah so I think that is one of the things we’ve been touching on but not fully dug into is the actual conversation you should have with someone that is pacing you before the race even starts. So what are the things that you tell your pacers before you actually get into the race.

24:38.54
Nic
So it’s always you generally know roughly where you stand fitness wise you generally have your goals sometimes they’re very aspirational and you know they break apart from the start which where we’ve seen plenty of times sometimes you I I’ve done this race before I know this I’ve run this time. This is my fitness so you have rock a rough goal of what you want to achieve in the race I think it’s really important particularly when you get the longer races at the hundred miles it’s like you have have to kind of a deep why which some people just choose race and then wonder why they drop out as well. If you’re not really invest in the race I think you can get away with it for like marathons and 50k’ s maybe a 100k but a hundred mile you’d really need to have a reason why so I think I always want the people around me to know why and I sort of say like when it gets really hard remind me of this. Yeah, so it’s that again reminding you while you’re there I think yeah know if you’ve got hey my shin’s been playing up like conversations about things that could come up in the race and then so that’s what we’re gonna do also how we’re going to troubleshoot or if I start doing this. This has happened the last 2 races then this is what I want to do or if I come in looking like crap and I’m 6 hours behind my plan time. These are things or don’t let me do this or if I sit down you put a timer on and after 4 minutes you kick me out no matter what’s happening you know you know or if I’m coming in saying that my legs hurting and I’ve never had problems before it’s like okay so what you’re doing is we going to medical this is the course so the same way you like.

26:04.67
Nic
Like businesses and cases have like if this happens this is the system you follow the process and that flow chart has this happened? Yes, why you have a very clear thing. So there’s no surprises. Know the conversations we troubleshoot and then we do that and then it’s you know, walk it out or you have conversations like if my race isn’t going. Well this is what I’d like to hear or I don’t respond to yelling so you need to be really kind or if you’re really kind with me I’m going to be a baby so you need to be real. Yeah I don’t want sympathy and then some people like you say like hey you can’t be nice to me. Be firm, be friendly, but if I’ve been a baby, it’s like cool. What’s the problem. Let’s fix it off. You go? So it’s very practical things like that obviously things like making sure they know what kit and all those things and again a lot of it if you really have time and ideally it was I guess if like we can use the example of I was on a plane ride to California I started getting Whatsapp messages on the Thursday, there’s a Friday morning race, a friend of mine needs to pace it from a hundred mile I like okay so that was very short term you just signed up for the one hundred mile you jump up distance which nobody does apparently um I was on the plane over. I hadn’t been running anywhere near as much as I wanted to so it was very but yeah I’ve run hundred miles I know the area and I know the core so it was very much. I’m confident enough about this and then it was a conversation like okay is aiming for the podium.

27:28.73
Nic
She won her last hundred miller and she’s yeah it sounds okay so I’m going here to work so it’s not just getting a person who wants to finish their first hundred is very much you’re running fast and it’s very competitive with those goals in mind and then I think we spoke very briefly that night. Sort of like I think I’m like do you want me to run in front of you behind you very practical things like that because some people you know if you’re running with someone there front you end up I’ve seen people where the pace is all excited and runs too fast or someone just running an effort the next thing like where their running. They’re turning around, they’re running and you can’t see the runner eating. You don’t see them drinking and saying all those things and again I remember when I first went to the sport I was listening to podcasts and just hearing all these things thrown around. It’s like okay so you need to have those conversations and also I’ve been in a race where I’ve been tired and at night and the person in front of me and then you know you have those petzl all there those reactive headlines which will flicker and change so they cut the light off that I couldn’t see that I’d like hit my toe or think I’m going to trip. So all these little nuanced things where it’s like okay I personally like to be behind someone if I’m pacing, so I can see them and they set the pace. If they’re walking I will walk if they’re running up a hill or something I will run and then it’s you know easier for me to occasionally you know adjust to that pace whereas if I’m running up a hill and then you’re not then it’s like I’m leaving you behind and then it’s you get that rhythm.

28:50.82
Nic
You don’t understand those nuances which will add up at the end of a hundred miler again saying hey you need to eat some food and then you watch them eat the food. It’s like have you been drinking, you get to ask those questions. So again, some people have preferences but you try and sort that out and then on the fly you’re figuring those things out as well. You know I think asking questions like what fueling you use. What happens if that’s not working? What happens when we go to a station? Like what are you wanting to do so all those very practical conversations. So at the race there’s no little questions and energy getting wasted on things in the same way if you’re again going on a big adventure the same way if you’re going traveling with. Yeah, it’s the same kind of principle of let’s prepare for all the eventualities so that there’s a but a plan b plan c plan like what happens we get there and the crew aren’t there worms you know all these things what happens if something major happens and you know or I’ve got this I’m allergic to bees so if I get stung by bees I need to have this or like I’m asthmatic or things like that which could be a factor if someone’s diabetic or I’m allergic to this things that come on where you sit there and you don’t know or don’t understand. I think all those things are sort of important. So it’s trying to rule out all the practical things and ideally, it’s a you know lot of this stuff you pick up generally pretty quickly if they’re a good communicator. You know what questions to ask but I remember we spoke for like 5 minutes on Thursday. We met Friday morning, had a quick chat and then it was figuring out on the fire but it was very much like I’m running. Ah I luckily got to sort see you I was working mile 15 and 24 so I got to see you run in and leave as okay, that’s how we’re doing aid stations got it. I got to sort of understand that. But I think you know, asking as many questions about some very basic mechanics as when we start running ones when we stop what happens if I need this like how many things am I carrying what gear will I need to have. Um, you know is their mandatory kit do pacers need to have mandatory kit like all those things if we realized on the fine so what happened could get me disqualified are you allowed to mule and you know one race I know allows muling and that’s Leadville which is you know a throwback to the miners where they would let the mules carry their stuff. So that one particular race I can carry all the things few but any other race that’s an automatic DQ. So each race has the rules you know Western States have very clearly stated like when you can pick up a pacer when you can swap a pacer because all those things if you haven’t asked them and haven’t looked at the rules. Kind of all come back to or sort of you know or I want to swap a pacer at x point here so be prepared and then you know the pacers need to be chatting and going in all that stuff which comes with pre-race and then on the race as it goes on and again. You’re always adjusting. You’re figuring things out, you’re like hey when we come into aid stations but always really slow here. So it’s like okay we need to sort of figure this out or you know they’re always asking this thing. So let’s go in and ask for that thing in advance and you know it’s all very much just you’re there to do a job and it’s trying to you remove as much decision making and it gets much troubleshooting sort of preprogrammed to pre plan because because things can go wrong and things can go pear-shaped and you know you want that person you want to be comfortable that person knows what to do and knows the process and is not gonna let you down.

32:04.24
Alyssa
Yeah I mean that was perfect. I think that just really strongly. I think that the biggest thing that a pacer and a runner should understand is that feelings really don’t matter in the moment. So just be as blunt and honest with communication as you possibly can because that will remove a lot of potential areas for snags or hold ups or wasted time if you’re not just direct and get the job done. Um, so I guess just a few things from personal experience I would say. Is that I will tell my pacer hey when I pick you up, you’re going to be in charge of telling me when to eat so I eat a spring every 40 minutes so I immediately said hey Nick set a timer for 40 minutes and you tell me when to eat because I stop trusting myself as much to get that done. So that’s just a really concrete thing. This is my nutrition plan. This is what I’m doing to make me do it.

33:03.67
Nic
Yeah, as we realize you decided you didn’t want to have them at the end and I was like no, you still have to have it. You got 10 minutes to have it. It was fine and which goes to the point that even though you know you’re supposed to do it and like even at the top level. You still find reasons not to and the pacers still just need to like mom you.

33:19.90
Alyssa
Exactly kick you in the butt. Another thing I always try to do is I like to have my pacer told me hey we’re a mile out. What do we need done at this aid station and then you work with your pacer and come up with exactly what you need I need this bottle filled with.

33:39.38
Alyssa
This liquid I need a piece of watermelon. I need to use the bathroom. I need this or my crew and so especially if you’re going into a crewed aid station your pacer can text your crew beforehand and be like have xy and z out get a milkshake ready. Ah you know, just make sure that. If you can plan accordingly if you can text or have your pacer text your crew to have everything out that’s going to save a lot of time and a lot of like what’s going on and chaos when you come into the aid station. So that’s something.

34:12.78
Nic
I’d eat it so I was and I’d add to that as well. It’s often particularly later in the race. The runner gets tired and just is less chatty and has that less kept. They’re very much focused on the mission. So it’s often the pace of these to come into a station and again I’ve worked at aid stations. Some stations have some of the best runners in the world. Former champions other people have you know their kids volunteering so you have a range of different people depending on the series so often it’s frantic often. They don’t know what they’re doing. They’re not really run races. Sometimes they have so you very much need to come in with clear directions so like hey we need 2 bottles of this and we need some of that and then you take care of your own stuff and make sure the run’s got the stuff make sure they don’t leave gear behind all those sort of things that you forget when it gets tired you know putting poles away or coming to like crews say he’s like hey we need another headlamp. Where’s the other headlamp we’re gonna need that all we I need give me the jacket she needs a jacket that type of stuff as well because and I being there where you get it’s harder to articulate stuff and then you forget things and you’re very much not brain foggy and just like I’m on fumes I’ve got twenty miles to go I’m just trying to get down another spring and then it drinks and coke can get out of here. So the pacer very much becomes the mouthpiece and the one in charge of the strategy and the plan and making sure that stays afloat and you’re having those conversations each time so that you know what to do and you can very clearly communicate and get things happening because you get frantic you stand around people sort of you know.

35:34.53
Nic
Often if you’re particularly when you’re sort of like either like away from people you get the whole aid station just descends on you and everyone’s like what do you need and they’re frantic and they’re excited and very much a mismatch of energy and you often see people run off without the wrong thing or run off and forget to fill their bottles and all these things which can get disaster from just you know, not taking 10 seconds to be direct and thoughtful.

35:54.91
Alyssa
Perfect. Yeah, it’s so vital that you get what you need from an aid station and it can be so overwhelming like there’s lights and music and people talking and all of a sudden you’re like oh my family’s there. Oh my friend is there and you run out with nothing you need so definitely making sure your pacer knows your plan.

36:14.30
Alyssa
Um, and the other thing I think you made a great point is the positioning of where your pacer is so I had a pacer during moab two forty love the kid but he ran about fifteen feet, ten to fifteen feet in front of me for it was like mile 200 or no sorry mile like 171 to 2 something and him being fifteen feet ahead of me was really demoralizing where I was like oh my gosh like why is this guy just running. Ten to fifteen feet in front of me and not waiting for me and like we can’t talk and I feel just like disconnected and so I told him to stop doing that. But I think that that’s just a really good point. I actually think behind is probably the best place to be because. Unless you actively say to someone hey go in front of me and make me try to run with you. But if you are ahead of someone you have to be really cognizant of where your runner is and how close they are because you can kind of demoralize them without realizing it if you are just kind of hovering like that douchebag distance ahead of them.

37:27.19
Nic
On that note quite important like I remember race where like tiny things sort of like take you off the game so I was very conscious when there was where I was running the obviously I’m tall and have long legs so there’s sections where it’d be a bit steeper and I could hike and you’d be running as I could I would say like I get two steps and I have to start running just because if you start to hear a different cadence. It can throw you off if you know I eat little things like if I’m in it say it’s a hundred miles and they are doing mile markers. I change my watch to miles if it’s kilometers to kilometers. And then I always try and make sure my watch doesn’t beat because I’ve been a hundred miles before and hearing beep then I’m like I thought we’d run like four miles. It’s like and you get in your head and it’s just irrational when you start you try and do math it just drives you up the wall and like tiny little things like that can really throw you off. And again like if you’ve got someone running in front of you who’s right there and you know cuts off your light and then you can’t see the rocks. You don’t like it because you’re tired. You’re not very cognizant anyway, all these little things can really throw off a race and again part of it’s your job to communicate and change things up and the pace’s role was to be self-aware and again I would. My default is always to position behind and I think a lot of the early days people would say by default go behind and you know particularly if it’s not a lot of space on the trail and not dark and at night is very much.

38:49.70
Nic
You need to be able to monitor them and yeah, ask some questions and also if you are behind them you can either just talk and fill the air or ask some questions and engage how they’re feeling and what they’re doing as well. So there’s very little to talk about because you know what we spent. Now on a trail six and a half of that was me telling you why should run western states they were definitely like points where it was back and forth. There were points where it’s like I’m a sort of talk and sort of you know, just remind you that we hear and we’re moving other times it was sort of a bit of I think when we’re climbing up after the river that road climbs a bit broken. But kept on seeing the moon and thinking it was an a station but you know you have to manage that and know when so I’m just like hey you just need to shut up or be working or sometimes you need to like hey I just need to talk stuff and be very light and just keep that momentum going and that energy is there and that you know that comes with running with them and not walking when they’re running and yeah, all those little things that can throw you off your game and I think you know watch is beeping or yeah and some people were like hey I’ll play to music grab my phone and that’s a tactic as well. There’s all those little things that can really add percentages or remove percentages of your capacity to run the race and yeah, again, there’s reasons. For all those reasons why some people don’t want pacers because they don’t want someone to be in their way or chatting them and but then there’s equally races where having someone there just when you’re in a really low spot just talking crap about why should run western states just gets you moving along and pointing out that tree there or that point where the mutual friend thought you saw a giraffe and you know all those fun things. So but again, it’s very much a job and you know as you sort of said there like it is fun and pacing is fun. It’s a great adventure. It is very much a privilege and you know I always take pacing very seriously and treat it almost more importantly than a race because it’s someone else’s livelihood like life at risk and then they have a bad race and you know for me, you know, not taking it seriously or not looking after myself and they you know have to worry about me in whatever reason.

00:00.16
Alyssa
Awesome! Well the last few things that we want to touch on are one of the funny aspects of it. I think it’s always one of a pacer’s greatest concerns. But I also think a runner is ever actually truly disappointed in what happens because it means that maybe your race is going pretty well. But Nick what happens if you drop your pacer.

00:27.46
Nic
So for those that don’t know and that means I’m sure most people do but dropping your pacer is essentially when your runner is just flying or your pace is having a really bad time or maybe a bit of both and then they run off and the paces left by them themselves during the race. So it does happen. Um, I can think of when it was the Western States two years ago where I think Jeff Browning and a few other people were running from the river and just dropping their pacers like it was hot. Who else was there Pat Reagan? It was just demolition.

01:00.30
Alyssa
Um, well Katie just dropped Katie dropped Tofer in western this year pretty sure.

01:07.77
Nic
Yeah, so yeah, so dropping pacers happens particularly when you’re like so zoned in going for it. Sometimes the pacer is not and there’s plenty of situations like maybe the pacer hasn’t had a chance to eat the food or. Whatever reason, but so dropping a pace like for whatever reason whether the run is doing really well or the pacer is really struggling or wherever that sits on the scale in most races. It’s expected that the pacer is managing themselves. Um, the expectation is that. Pacer can self-assist and if they get stuck out there they can get out themselves and again some other races. But I think we said Candice is racing the two hundred mile plus races purely because it’s a safety thing and there’s such a huge area to cover. Um, you’re not allowed to drop your pacer. Your pacer is supposed to be with your runners so that you’re tied together. Um, and that’s very much a safety factor because there’s huge stretches of land that are very inaccessible. The pacer often won’t have a Gps or the tracking on them so that if they go of course it’s very hard to get them out and then it’s just wasting resources because most races at the best of times anyway, can really only cave to the runners so which goes back to what you’re saying earlier that the pacer needs to be competent. But in the sort of hundred miles like western states if you drop your pace and they can walk to the next day station then wait to go lift out or get to where the crew point is generally my perception is if I’m running and I’m dropping my pacer that’s a good thing. It’s a confidence boost and that ideally the pacer doesn’t want to be put in a situation where they’ve. You know? yeah again I think there’s a famous story of Ian charming getting dropped by maybe to me all because he had food poisoning or something and you get weird situations where something like that could happen. But for the most part um, you know you really hope your pacer is there but their job is very much if they get dropped and know that they could get dropped and I very much said like well haven’t run thirty three miles for a while. So I’m going to get dropped. It’s like well it’s fine because she’ll be doing well she’ll be going on to win so I came in with that I think most people would kind of ideally expect that their runner would just go on and continue without them. But yeah outside of let’s say a bear attack or something very crazy happening in the race. You generally want your runner to crack on and keep going so I’ve fallen over and said keep running I think even if you right at the end of canyons where we almost got demolished by the hundred k start and then I had to go try and pick up your bottle and I started crafty I like god I’m this summer let it go yeah was like.

03:39.90
Alyssa
Um, oh my gosh.

03:45.13
Nic
Yeah we’re just at the white bridges likeI wasn’t what you went into town anyway. So it was one of those things but I think very much it goes back to what’s in the rules where you can change pacer and that and it’s very much that you know your pacer should be. You know, confident enough that they can figure it out themselves and I wouldn’t really want to go with someone that you know if you know a twenty mile section that they can’t sort themselves out and just even walk it out. Um you know or you know at very least go like hey if someone else goes past to say look I’m just walking out. Can you just let them know? But again. Two hundred mile races have rules for safety because they don’t want to waste resources on finding someone. That’s not even in the race and doesn’t have a tracker and all that. So again, if you’re if I was a pacer and a little bit unconfident and particularly in like a remote area or something I would have my phone with me I take extra things I’d have you know. And extra jacket things so that if I was stuck for a little bit that I could manage myself to get out and you know hours in the heat. You know you have a space blanket or whatever you need to do to make yourself feel confident. But then again that goes back to our early question of choosing the right person. Some of that you know if you’re flying and you leave them behind it. You don’t have to worry about them in the same way that if you’re in a pretty gnarly situation out in the mountains where you’re climbing or something you want to have someone you know that if something goes wrong that they’re capable to do what they need to do so but again always read the rules.

05:09.86
Alyssa
Um, absolutely.

05:11.95
Nic
Always check things, always have those conversations and I think I’ve had them for like if this happens just keep going and I’m pretty sure I said it to like just keep going so again, basic communication which is you know part and parcel of this any outdoor adventure whether it’s a race or not.

05:30.95
Alyssa
Totally yeah and I think that one of the things to take note we’ll use the 200 for example, is that every race has a limited amount of resources and so as a pacer. It’s kind of a do no harm situation obviously things happen. You break your ankle or sprained or whatever. But really, you want to try to minimize the extra strain that you’re placing on the race itself and again as nic you’ve been kind of hammering, make sure you know the rules. Um I think. That often times we’re like oh we’ll just jump at the race and then you realize like hey with the with Candice’s races you can’t be dropped or you need to carry mandatory kit and um, really again with the pacer. It’s like your job is to help your runner do the best they’re capable of doing and so. Anything that you can do any homework. Yes, ultimately you are the runners like the runners should take responsibility for you. But also you want to do your homework and do your job like I know Candace has a whole manual for pacers and crew. So if you have a manual. Make sure that you like runners, make sure that your pace and grew have that information and pacer and crew take it seriously um because that could be the difference of someone possibly getting disqualified and that would really suck.

06:54.35
Nic
Yeah I think that is a good example of why it’s important to go through and read and understand everything because I was flying in. I had no plans to pay at all. I thought I was just working at a station having fun. Some reason I packed all my lighting and extra gear and this arrived and then so if we were chatting. It’s like yeah I’ll have two pacers and you do one section then I think it was really late at night I was just going I going read everything because I like to know that I like to know I’m comfortable and I don’t want to do anything that upsets my runner and yeah it was all last minute and I this point to felt comfortable. So reading through and so okay, you’re only allowed to the pace has to start and finish that thirty three mile section you can’t change them and then it’s like the pacer has to have the same mandatory kit that the runner has which is a whole bunch of things which I guess by being a buy utmb race they added that on there so which is not normally the case that hundred mile races in you know where you’re allowed to have a pacer generally, there’s no mandatory kid at all so that was ah an anomaly and particularly being out at western states which runs on much of the same course and is very much a pace it need to sign their bib. There’s lots of opportunities and it’s a very quite easy race to pace I think there’s. You know, other than the no muling rule. It’s pretty easy to do so reading through all those rules and very clearly making sure I had every single element of that so that again knowing that if you got first and they decided to check your stuff and check my stuff though just because I didn’t have a hat you wouldn’t get disqualified or get a time penalty or something because that’s you know.

08:22.80
Nic
We’ve done all the work and the job is the job to have everything perfectly dialed and even little things like if you’re running through a settings if you take something off forget it and then that’s on you and equally you need to be making sure that your one has all that stuff at all times and then knowing where you can change and where you can get crewed which is all every race has it very clearly labeled. Western states has an entire page for crew and pacers most other races very clearly state everything and what you need to do and for me, that’s the minimum standard if you’re pacing you take 2 minutes to read the book double check everything if you have questions speak to them and then just make sure that everyone’s on the same page because. I could have a very easily dish again. I came straight from an aid station and I had to run up a hill. We barely got food. I pounded an in and out burger and had a red bull and they pretty much started pacing you and I didn’t like I was in such a rush. Only had the mandatory gear. I didn’t have a jacket. I didn’t have anything for after the race but I was like as long as I’m fine in the race and Alyssa’s good. That’s all I cared about and it was just you know very much that is you know crewing and pacing you running around and things happen and if you don’t have all those things predone and checked and you can just get. You know it can save you a whole lot of trouble but you can I would you know. You wouldn’t you’d hate to finish a race and get DQd and that has happened to races where people have been I think at Hard Rock again getting crew at the wrong point and like literally getting a sip of water or something but that was that result in a DQd where he technically finished a racing first.

09:48.23
Nic
Particularly the high level or even even if you’re just trying to finish the race. You’d just be gutted to get randomly checked and dequeued because your pace had forgotten something.

09:58.17
Alyssa
Definitely and as you can hear Nic is an a plus plus plus pacer because he was catching things that I was missing because I was last minute deciding to run a hundred miles so thank you Nic for saving my ass on a lot of those pieces.

10:16.16
Alyssa
Nic if you want an a plus plus pacer Nic’s your guy and I have to still repay the favor. Um, yeah, so are there any last tips or things you’re like, hey this is a trick I use 1 pacing or go to that you found kind of universally work.

10:43.13
Nic
Um, I think we’ve covered most things. I think it’s like yes, there’s a whole like we covered a lot of responsibility in things that you know on the face or you may seem like a whole lot of pressure and stress. But I think pacing is really fun. You get to be part of someone else’s journey. You get to help them achieve a goal. Often, that’s that might not be ready to run a hundred miles but you know you’re a competent runner. You want to run one. You’re going to pay someone. Um, there’s been people that sometimes really need a pacer and wouldn’t have finished a race without one so it’s such a joy. It’s such a privilege that we had a great time out there. I got worked really hard. You know we had fun being competitive as well. You know we had great chats at the end with you know? Um, yeah people like Alex who race really hard and like there’s a lot of camaraderie around that as well. And yes, you need to read the rules. There’s all this pressure. But it’s really fun and it’s an opportunity to, you know, be part of someone else’s race and give back to the sport particularly if you race a lot as well and you have people who are. All there for you. It’s really, you know it’s a fun part and I think yeah, choose the right pacer, make sure you fit, make sure you can do all the things you need to do and you know take it seriously but at the same time but is a privilege. It’s great, fun. Um, you know you’re part of the fabric of the community and it’s a special thing because you don’t get pacers in other races. So.

11:57.81
Nic
You know it’s a fabric of the sport and I think everyone should you know be involved with it’s volunteering or crewing and pacing as well as going to races and yeah know I guess my final thing is do you have any sort of standout memories of any race where you’re being a pacer or had a pacer of there and I’ll sort of. Give you a bit of time to think and say I remember my western states and like climbing up robbie point you were 24 hour like just outside 24 hours but seeing the sun rise again and just really magical moment sharing that with my pacer and going like hey we didn’t get sub 24 but we’ve had a fun time and like we’re done. We’re up Robbie. We’re done. And just watching that and you know like a moment again as we’ve talked about before is that if you pay someone and for a hundred mile you get a very special bond and I think that’s the most important thing out of yeah to take away from all of this is like it’s you know we we met that day. But 7 hours compression friendship experience and you know we’ve become really close friends and adventure partners since that and that’s just come out and I’ve got I can say that with a whole bunch of other people and you know that’s very common when you speak to people who’ve like had races and those like member that time at that race and you know so. Do you have any standout pacing memories or being paced?

13:14.31
Alyssa
Um, ah.

13:17.80
Alyssa
Yeah, so I think honestly when we were at the bottom of Robbie point and I said Nic I think I’m fucking going to win a Utmb world major and you were like shut your face. You’re not there yet. That was a great moment.

13:35.61
Alyssa
Um, so that was super special and then I think getting to hug your pacer at the end of the race is such a great part from a pacing perspective. Um I think just I’ve paced quite a few times and I think just getting to share the experience I think oftentimes we forget that sometimes the race that we need the most is not actually our own race and we can be really inspired and motivated by helping others achieve their goals. I know I’ve certainly been brought to tears more than once by watching someone else’s race. Become and see them become a new person in a way at a finish line. Ah so those are some really special moments Nic personally has inspired me. I race quite a bit and I take a lot of resources from other people. So I’m calling October the month of my helping others month of pacing and crewing and hopefully I can return the favor for nic at a race coming up soon. So yeah, thanks so much nic for joining. This has been a ton of fun. I think we could talk all day about these. The silly sport and the shenanigans of running.

14:50.73
Nic
Or you need to get your gold ticket to Western. So I can pace you for that.

14:57.54
Alyssa
We’ll try our best. Thailand might be on the radar. We’ll see awesome. Well thanks so much. Nick.

15:03.78
Nic
Let’s do it cool. Thank you for having me.

00:00.00
Alyssa
Hi everyone so we have moved on to our part 2 of pacing and crewing in our trail running training series. So we are joined here today to talk about crewing with my husband Codi Clark and this is our first in person episode actually the first in-person episode I’ve ever done for a podcast. So I’m pretty excited to get this one started and the fact that I’m actually married to him so Codi, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Oh well, glad to have you glad you could be here today. Um, first of all. If you could tell us a little bit about yourself or your background in mountain sports and then also your experience with crewing. Well big question. Okay, so first and foremost I am obviously the husband of the wonderful Alyssa Clark the co-host of this podcast. Um, second off I’m an naval officer and I work in engineering and diving and salvage for the Navy and I would say my um I’m pretty much an amateur at all the mountain sports I like to do them all. But I’m not very good at any one of them. But I like to dabble. For crewing I think I’ve basically crewed Alyssa for almost every race except for maybe 1 and the fifty mile or you did before we met and then ever since the first time you did the hurt 100 I’ve been pretty much involved in all of them in some way or shape or form whether that’s.

01:32.17
Alyssa
A computer following your track and coordinating using cell service and internet or in-person crewing and coordinating people’s pacing efforts that’s definitely true. I will actually say that Codi five months into us starting to date. Ah, volunteered or was a volunteer told ah that he was going to help me crew for my first hundred which was the hurt 100 and he stayed up for thirty plus hours he was there at every aid station. He popped the blisters on my feet and carried me to bed. Got me pizza and I was telling one of my friends a couple days later about all that he’d done and she said if you don’t marry him I will so I knew ah pretty quickly that anyone who was as selfless as he was crewing and as good at it as he is was definitely a keeper. So um, I’ve kept him. As my crew chief since this is pretty early on but let’s get into it Codi um, first of all, what is the primary role of a crew I mean we’ve been throwing this around but what is a crew for an ultra or trail run.

02:43.28
Alyssa
Man I don’t know I guess for the rest of the world. It probably feels like logistics management specialists like you’re just kind of coordinating the logistics behind the effort. The running effort. So I would say you try to remove all the decision making from the person running. And all the worries and the concerns of the person running so that they literally only have to focus on putting one foot in front of each other. Sometimes it takes a level of anticipation or perhaps knowing the person pretty well. But as far as I know there’ve been some reasonably successful runners out there who have had a random person crew them. Maybe not multi-day stuff. But yeah, you got to kind of know your person and know what their goals are and try to manage the logistics for them. Definitely and I mean just the nitty gritty of it. A crew person is someone who’s driving the car to the aid station there. Popping the blisters they’re bringing you snacks when you say oh my gosh the only thing I want right now is a milkshake. They go to Mcdonald’s 30 minutes away and bring you back a milkshake and they make sure that you have all of the gear that you need and they often are coordinating if you have a pacer. Um, so the crew person’s kind of your personal helper will say a personal assistant. Um, it’s really disappointing when the race ends and you realize your personal assistant is gone.

04:12.92
Alyssa
But ah yeah, they just basically handle all of the logistics while you are actually running to ensure that you have a smooth and as good of a race as possible. So along those lines. How big should your crew be and then. How do you delegate within that and what is a crew chief? Okay so start probably in reverse order the crew chief is the one kind of making the decisions on the crew and sometimes as the crew chief you have. For instance, this is more particular in a race like Moab, like a multi-day race where there’s multiple pacers. It’s kind of like a bigger event going on than just a continuous run and I say just continuous very tongue- in-cheek. You know a 24 hour straight run is very hard but for something like Moab, you have to have like multiple pacers. You’re driving 200 something miles. So the crew chief is going to be the one to be coordinating the efforts of all 4 of those people and it’s pretty easy for me being in the military and doing some of the things I do just being able to like coordinate little small teams and everyone kind of doesn’t typically know that somebody just needs to take charge and make a decision. Um, instead of just allowing everybody to come up with their own plan on their own. So it’s it’s really easy when you have the background that I have to just kind of walk into a situation and be like here’s the plan okay does my plan suck does anybody have any recommendations nope all right? great. That’s what we’re gonna do and we’re just gonna keep on adjusting as we go. Um.

05:42.76
Alyssa
As far as you’re like team like I think I mean Alyssa has had some pretty good success with just me being a crew I don’t always pace can’t always keep up with Alyssa I have to wait till like for Moab I had to wait till she was like 120 miles in and then I could pace her or something like that. But yeah I would say like the crewing the crew. The crew can be as big as the race is and awesome. Ah, sometimes sorry there is an aspect of just having your friends around. So I think sometimes Alyssa has had her friends meet her at stops. Not necessarily being the crew but just like being there and being fun and engaging and that can really lift morale definitely. But I think one of the most important things Codi is alluding to is that a crew chief is someone who is making the ultimate decisions because as a runner goes further and further into a race. The less and less. They’re able to make those decisions. So if you have I don’t know 3 4 5 people who all have differing opinions. You have to have someone who is the ultimate decision maker. Yeah decision maker and the other aspect of it is that oftentimes a crew chief is not necessarily pacing because. Having 1 continuous person throughout. Um, it’s better for them not to pace because they can be tracking the whole bigger picture. Um, rather than the pacers who sometimes are just seeing like bits and pieces. Yeah, what’s happening. Yeah I mean that’s true and again like bringing up my experience enough like in the military just like being the guy who’s like a supervisor never actually has their hands on the material or the equipment. They’re just kind of watching from afar making sure that every piece is lying where it needs to go. Um, yeah, yeah, so off of these lines and I will say that I do think with choosing how big your crew should be is that there is such a thing as too big. Ah, that’s Codi brought up a great point with having friends. It’s great to have friends there but sometimes friends might not have that much experience with ultra running and so they might end up kind of not realizing that like what you need at the time and so they can be somewhat distracting so you need to have a few really core dedicated people who for the most part know what they’re doing I mean they understand ultras or at least you’ve sat down and really worked with them like. I’ve had a couple of friends where we’ve had meetings beforehand and we literally just sit down. We’re like okay this is what a crew does. This is what an ultra race is and making sure that you have people who are really invested and reading the rulebook in taking the time to understand what they need to do because also crews can get runners disqualified if you. Don’t play by the rules of the race. Um, so that’s super key. Yeah I would say that you really gotta know well you got to know of the people that you’re going to have as your crew or your pacers because I guess it’s like climbing. There’s probably a lot of climbers on the podcast listening so you know you rarely ever like you know day 1 step out into the alpine with somebody you like kind of usually like maybe start a sport climbing day where you start like you know a hike day before you take on like some sort of huge endeavor. But you know I have seen quite a few times crewing around Alyssa and the people around Alyssa. Running which I don’t know why but almost every single time I’ve crewed alyssa I end up like crewing like other people around her which is always fun. We’ve made some good friends like killian korth that way which is pretty cool. Um, but yeah, like you have these people who invite either their family or like a friend or like a spouse that or a significant other that’s trying to crew them. They’re like oh man I don’t really know what to do like he just told me to show up or they just told me to show up with this bag of snacks and I’m like oh that’s great like what’s in the bag of snacks like have they been eating a lot have you been counting the wrappers counting the calories. They’ve been giving back to you like do you have any ideas on what they’re taking for nutrition and. You know, 2 bottles is one electrolyte and the other one water. What do you do? What’s the plan and they don’t really know so sometimes it’s ah you know, just giving tidbits out to other people for my experience which is an important part to say right now that crewing Alyssa Clark is not the normal crewing experience for everyone out. And the racing world like it what I probably do for her. Um, and what she is trying to do in the race and her goals is probably different than what a lot of people are trying to do out in a race. So you know we might have slightly differing strategies between us and the general public. Yeah I think it’s always good.

10:20.88
Alyssa
And that goes to the next point that I was actually going to make is understanding what your runner’s goals are so I highly recommend that you have a pre-race meeting with your crew. I mean that’s almost essential whether it’s a Zoom meeting, whether it’s in person or whether it’s. The night before the race so that you can go over like I’ll have sheets written out like this is exactly what my plan is this is what I am giving you to bring to every aid station. These are the times that I’m expecting to be there. Codi always rechecks them and tells me I’m incorrect. Oh yeah, definitely do this. So. another friend Coree you said he never writes down his paces and I was like that’s insane. I don’t know how I could ever do that and then Alyssa will write down our paces and I’ll be like this is insane. These are not achievable at all like without all you thinking um. Not unlike the set, like you know sometimes you don’t take it you forget to take it into account the elevation of the certain section or or the technicality of the trail in that certain section. You just kind of base it off mileage. So yeah, definitely meeting with your crew beforehand and maybe having somebody else do a sanity check. Um, if you couldn’t guess I could be a little bit nitpicky on things sometimes so it’s kind of nice to have somebody who’s a little bit more in the details of um, picking a part of a plan to check your plan which may seem annoying to the runner. But overall I think it’s helpful. Yeah, it definitely is. It’s good to have someone I’ve.

11:43.18
Alyssa
Had a lot of success with military people crewing me. Ah, they really tend to look at the small details and just be really I realize not everyone has that. Ah, that choice. They’re that luxury but definitely having a crew chief that’s really detail oriented and is really invested. Um, and back to that pre-race meeting you really want to go over expectations and your plan multiple goals. Yeah, you want to say like my goal is to finish within a certain time. My goal b is to not get timed out by the race. Yeah goal seems like maybe not yet injured and like knowing where we’re at during the race being like hey goal a is no longer achievable like that’s okay, we have 2 other goals we can still meet. Yeah and also going through your nutrition plan going through like hey. I’m supposed to hit this aid station at 8PM that means I need to if I’m not already carrying a headlamp. I need my headlamps charged. I need my clothing for nighttime. Um, so it’s really key that they have your gear plan, your nutrition plan, your pacing plan. Especially with bigger races like when you’re getting into the 200 plus we’re talking multiple nights and that goes also back to the whole thing of like your crew is doing things. Well I guess we’ll get to that but like your crew is also doing a bunch during the day when they’re not um.

13:13.17
Alyssa
Effectively with you like they’re charging your headlamp. They’re charging. Um maybe your watch if you’re like taking a nap or something they’re getting you food. You know there’s so many other pieces. Um, yeah, speaking of headlamps, one of the biggest mistakes I’ve seen a lot of people make is giving the runner a headlamp. Station before they think they’re going to need a headlamp the amount of times I’ve seen people come in in the dark freaking out because they didn’t think they need a headlamp this early just give them the lightweight one stuff it in their pack and maybe not even tell them about it but they can pull it out later. Yeah, so when you are. Going to crew someone Hopefully the runner has all of the things that they need. But how do you pack for being a crew member? How do you prepare and make sure that you don’t get super rundown? Yeah I guess it’s probably easier like the typical mountaineering mindset where like I almost always have like my layering system like you know a down jacket a rain shell some pants some shorts maybe typically if I’m not running you know a pair of socks that are good but um. How unpacking I think for you ends up being way more important. The other thing is obviously for myself if I’m not comfortable in okay, then it’s hard to take care of somebody else. So I guess in that nature if that’s where we’re going after then you know.

14:42.10
Alyssa
Don’t be afraid to bring an umbrella, the alpine umbrella I think is a very underutilized idea and I’m saying it now and and I think some companies should make them bringing that keeping dry when you’re out there would say that you can like perform better and not have like cold hands like when the runner comes in to help them change their shoes or socks is pretty important. Um, not everybody has these kinds of luxuries I understand but like and depending on the race style. But like if you’re typically flying to a race like you rent a car, perhaps renting the van that you can like, take the seats out of or like a minivan that you can lay all the seats down when there’s like this little like dry enclosed area that the person could crawl into is could be helpful or you yourself to take more or yeah, totally like I’m pretty ragged at the end of these things. Um, so taking my app myself when I can is pretty helpful. Or like simple things like setting up those little pop-up tents. You can buy a Walmart for like twenty bucks just to keep the sun off you people don’t understand like the sun will absolutely zap you of energy. So just getting one of those little $20 pop-up tents at Walmart to like set up the. You know four post tent so that there’s something to block the sun off you while you’re waiting for your runner to come in for your runner to come in and be able to like sit down either be you know, stay out of the rain for a second or stay out of the wind and and sun for a second can be super helpful. Mid-race.

16:09.66
Alyssa
Definitely and also making sure that you’re hydrating that you’re eating food even if it’s not like the highest quality food just make sure you’re getting calories down because chances are if you’re accruing for a longer race. You’re going to be sleep deprived and you need calories you probably need caffeine to keep going. And I’m a big fan of there’s no such thing as good calories and bad calories. There’s only calories so hit that Mcdonald’s up all you want and keep eating so crewing I think is like oh my gosh we’re going to get to this in the end. But I feel like you see some crazy things while you are out crewing someone. What should you be prepared for when you agree to sign up for absolute breakdowns. That’s fair. Ah. Luckily I don’t have to deal with them that often for myself. But I see people come in just like they just ran through a battlefield like just absolutely destroyed physically. Emotionally um, sometimes physically just so sick and like vomiting and can be a pretty rough scene. Um, it can of hurt if it’s your significant other that you’re like watching go through this and you kind of like want to pull the plug on them but they don’t want to I personally luckily have not had to deal with that too much but yeah you see a lot of like a lot like blood or broken bones or anything that I’ve seen during a race but you definitely see a lot of just like people and just like internal pain that you like just can’t describe but you kind of know what they’re going through and you really want to help them and like deep down inside. You’re like you know if you just like you know rest a little have a little water relax like you probably get back out there and do this thing that you train for months to do so yeah I mean like in Ouray I like talked to couple people until like just stick in with it for a little bit just because like you know they just needed to relax for a bit. Yeah, a little. Aid stations are there for you to relax, hang out. Have some food you did that for me and you’re right I did actually you were having a goal but a moment at 1 of the aid stations. Yeah, do you remember? You told me to have some dignity. What I said he said. You’re doing fine, have some dignity, slow down and keep going. Yeah like the atmosphere again. Unique experience. She was in first and she was like I’m terrible I’m having miserable miserable time like well you at first. So why don’t you slow down a little bit and try to enjoy the race a little bit more. And so he yeah you know, walked for a little while and then it turns out her appetite came back and she was able to eat and drink and she was fine afterwards shocking? Yeah I am a voice, a reason probably is. Yeah,, never mind crewing is all about just being a voice or reason for some reason.

19:14.49
Alyssa
Yeah, we heard the old adage that as soon as you step in front of a bunch of people and start speaking you’re like iq drops like a bunch like you should. I haven’t heard that. Yeah like I forgot there’s actually a more fun saying than what I just said in explaining it but like as soon as they step off the starting line their IQ drops like 50 points. And so it’s like all they can think about is like finishing you know the time that they wanted the place that they wanted in reality just like okay, why don’t we just slow down and eat some food and you’ll probably still finish in that time. But what you’re doing right now is like not helping you. That’s a gem right there. That’s definitely a good one. Um, I can attest that it’s like you go into primal mode where you’re just like you must finish the race, must keep going, must beat your head against the wall even further and this is why I have no interest in doing ultras. Oh you’ve done a couple. You’re doing one of your own making later on in the year. What would you say if you could give a new crew person your top 3 to 4 key tips? What would they be? Wow, put you on the spot. Yeah, okay I don’t know if I mean break them down to 3 or 4 or 5 but first things first is just have a pack in pack out system so like have a system like I personally use like a military style I know flip open flat type bag. So basically I show up at the spot I lay down a tarp or a moving pad. So like you know there’s some dry area that’s put her feet on the open flap. Put that down open the bag down and then open it up completely and I lay out the things so that she can see everything available to her so a lot of people just bring like a duffel bag full shit and they don’t really know like what’s in it and then they forget because it’s my 99 of the 150 mile race that they’re doing so. Putting it all out there so they can see what they have in the bag and be able to choose kind of like a candy bag is I think helpful instead of like trying to make the decision like this is what I think I want this is what I think I have visually seeing it and be like that’s what I need right now. And that includes extra socks, extra shoes, extra clothes like I personally would never think I would want an extra set of clothes during a race but Alissa changes her clothes all the time. Not a hundred miles in hundred plus yeah depends yeah, over 20 hours like those like facial wipes oh yeah, come out like a new person after using one of those through brushing your teeth. Yeah that I don’t understand. She loves to brush her teeth midrace and yeah, that’s great at all. Um, so that’s probably something I would recommend. It also.

22:14.69
Alyssa
You be organized because you know where everything is yeah that is true,but that’s just like another neurotic thing like you have to like know everything where where everything is and ready to go because yeah I’ve seen it before people come up with like those like you know, black hole Patagonia duffel bags like one hundred and fifty liters and is full of god knows what whatever the person put in there. Luckily we live together. So like when we pack we’d probably like to do it together or plan together or I’ve seen it enough times that I kind of know what’s in there but like they’ll be like in that bag. There’s like 1 little gel at the bottom in this one weird like a recovery ziploc bag. And the person looking through it has never seen it before has no idea what they’re talking about and they’re just digging through a bag looking for this It’s like and it’s like in a different duffel bag this whole time. Yeah, so that’s my tip personally for a runner. I’ve especially had a couple of other people crew me. When Codi wasn’t able to go and it is your job to have everything extremely well labeled like everything, if you are bringing a duffel bag should have been in some kind of a compartment or some kind of a bag or something labeled and you should go over where. Every single thing is with your crew the night before like I’ll sit down with my crew and open my bag and be like this is here this is here this is here this is labeled and they’re like oh my gosh. That’s so helpful and so like make your cruise job easy for them like do not make it harder. Yeah.

23:45.15
Alyssa
No, that makes sense for some like somebody. That’s not used to it or new people to the game like those ziploc baggies with a sharpie can save and you can use them for years. Yeah, like you have the same ones from 2018? Yeah, and it’s pretty easy to just label something and I guess you know. The seconds you save is not that important but being able to actually find it you know without the person getting so anxious that they just want to leave the station is like a pretty big win in comparison to like the other version where like all they want is one thing and they get so anxious that they have to leave the aid station. Yeah um. The other thing I would say is it’s a great tactic that I wish I used more with Alyssa but is collecting all the wrappers every single time sometimes you have a pacer usually their job is to take all their wrappers after they eat if it’s allowed I guess but. So you can count what they ate in calories. Um Alyssa some people will hide that they’re not eating because they just want to keep going and they’re not like oh I tend to tell you I just like don’t do anything about it I’m better now.

24:58.73
Alyssa
But like yeah some people like you know like oh I’m eating fine and then they’re like okay give me the wrappers what you ate and then they give you like 1 gel and like a twenty mile stretch and you’re like well yeah, not eating fine like just not possible if you’re to be eating fine right now. Um, so that’s the time to keep them at the aid station. Not let them leave until their appetite picks back up and then you make them eat a quesadilla or like a potato or whatever else the weird crap that they have is also a pro tip for being a crew. You get your runner a bunch of stuff that they’re not going to eat and then you eat it. Okay, as long as you’re careful about yeah we don’t want to use resources from the aid station. But I’m sure that your runner will be like oh yeah I want this and this and then. Yeah, that means they want let’s yeah I guess it’s not a plan. It’s more like they say they want all these things. They take 1 bite of the things they say they want and then you end up eating them. Yeah because you can’t give them back. You can be the vacuum cleaner for ah Codi’s other nickname is the trash panda. So yes. He does a good job when I take when I think a quesadilla sounds great and I take 1 bite of it and then you can’t really return a one bitten case and back to the eights they only that so much. Yeah, um, awesome. So the last thing I want to ask you.

26:21.49
Alyssa
As more of a fun story or fun memories. What has been your funniest or most insane crewing experience or moment that you can remember or favorite. I actually have no idea what my most favorite memory is oh man I really don’t know. I guess perhaps when it’s probably a couple probably and it’s always like when you secure the victory like. Which is obviously not everyone’s but you secure the goal that the want. So I feel like it’s always like something along the lines of oh like the person or like the thing we were worried about is over and it’s just basically as long as you don’t get hurt. You’re going to meet your goal so that’s happened in Moab that happened in the fkt for pinhoti those are pretty big. Pretty big multi-day events that I really enjoyed canyons like apparently it was a big race I didn’t know that at all and that was just not there because I was. And a special school that I need to be in and just following along as much as I could online and that was awesome when I found out that you rent that you wanted and all of a sudden it was like a entry fee to her entry to the utmb race in France so that was pretty cool and that was a kind of fun surprise.

27:53.85
Alyssa
And don’t I think a lot of times. It’s fun. It’s not fun in the beginning when the person’s running their first one hundred or first two hundred or whatever like watching Alyssa finish the hurt 100 in 2019 or whatever it was 2017 okay yeah that was terrible. She was just in pain the whole time and I wasn’t having a great time because I was like this is my girlfriend. This girl’s crazy. Ah I don’t know I don’t know what I’m doing here. It’s my first time crewing ended up crewing like some professional runners and it was kind of fun but like Alyssa was keeping up with them the whole time and like was putting herself through a lot of pain is like her first 100 is that first it was it was but then it’s like really cool like you know mile 90 into 100 when she’s like doing exactly the plan that she wanted to and she’s like I feel all right a little hungry. Can’t wait for some pizza at the end but I’m doing okay like. That’s a really good feeling. Maybe it’s a spouse more than a crew chief or crew remember. But yeah, that’s a really relaxing and good feeling. I don’t know the craziest story. The craziest story I ever seen is like and I stand by. I’ve seen so many people pull up in an aid station and just. Bawling their eyes out because of headlamps. It’s fair and it’s just like oh my god what were you thinking like why didn’t you carry a headlamp at when you left the aid station at 7 Pm like yeah what did you think was going to happen I haven’t really seen it I’ve seen lots of people puking that’s for sure. It’s pretty standard.

29:28.69
Alyssa
Um, yeah I don’t think it’s anything that crazy. But it’s just just weird people eating and running and crying pretty much sums up ultra running weird people eating running and crying. Yeah, it’s pretty much. And it all comes down to it’s pretty accurate. Um, yeah I mean I can say some of my favorite experiences with you with crew Moab was pretty spectacular. I feel like that came that was such a huge endeavor and really just came together in such an awesome way. Ah, really fun group of people. Yeah I nothing like this is not what it’s not about but it was really cool because it was there an Navy Guy, Army Guy, Air force guy and Marine Corps okay yeah so we had every branch represented there and it was. Just really cool to see us all work together. Um, yeah, Codi had to tell a couple people to shut up a few times maybe 1 in particular but you know so it’s ah it’s just so fun to have that power behind you just. When you have a group of people that believes in you enough to give up a weekend to give up three days to give up. You know, a night feels really special and actually it’s not the craziest thing I’ve seen. One of the hardest things as a crew member, especially if it’s your significant others, is to see them in like.

30:59.25
Alyssa
So much pain and like but they want to keep going and it’s like you just want them to stop and end their pain but they just want to keep going and like purposely put themselves through pain to achieve something they want to do and and I think that’s probably like the craziest thing I’ve seen is like. People are like ‘oh man, you’ including myself. You don’t look like you’re having a great time and this is no longer fun for either of us see Codi says that and hu he says like Moab was really hard to watch because I was mostly just sleep deprived but I think of moab as like that was the most fun. Like yeah I had a little blip at like mile 50 but actually mile the first yeah like mile fifty mile eighty were a little rough and then after that I had a great time. So I kept like how I look that bad, like I was having fun and if you want to see a reference. You can look on either of our Instagram pages you’ll find a collage of her sleeping in the dirt and you’ll know what I’m talking about now. It’s like 6 or 7 pictures of her taking literal dirt naps. Well I think that that’s a great starting point for a lot of people to understand what goes into crewing an ultra. So thank you Codi for helping us with that perspective and sharing your experiences. You’re very welcome and thank you for meeting my lifetime goal of being on the Uphill Athlete Podcast. I try my best. You’re the reason why I got into uphill athletes. So yeah, listen to your spouse’s people sometimes they know what they’re talking about all right.

32:36.80
Alyssa
Well thank you everyone for listening. We hope that you enjoyed this episode if you could rate review subscribe on your favorite podcast platform that really helps us to help more people and educate more people about mountain adventures. So have a great day. Is not just one but a community we are uphill athlete.