The Process of Becoming with Joe Corcione

Joe: If you’re doing things like, just for the condition of love of other people, um, it’s gonna crash and burn and I need to tie my self worth to, like, did I give it my all and did I believe in myself? And if I do those two things, regardless of what the result is, I can be proud of myself.

Alyssa: Hi everyone. Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. My name is Alyssa Clark and I will be your host today. I am stoked to have an amazing runner, uh, an amazing coach. He is a podcaster just all around, super fun, thoughtful guy who has really made an impact. I’ve been on the ultra running scene in a relatively short period of time. Joe Corcione, thanks for being on the podcast with me today.

Joe: Alyssa, thanks so much for having me, and it’s been so awesome, like just getting to know you over the past few months, having you on my podcast. Also, just watching your just stellar, just race results from afar. It’s always inspiring to see what you’re doing and so it’s an honor to be on the podcast here with you. So thank you for having me here. But most importantly, thank you for inspiring me and just being an awesome human being yourself.

Alyssa: Aw, well, I’m gonna bring you on any podcast if I get that, uh, that intro. That’s better than, uh, yeah. My husband tells me every day, so, no. One of the things that I love about what you do, so you have the Everyday Ultra podcast and you are really keen on educating and helping people to learn, um, to understand the sport better. Um, and that’s something that really aligns with what we do at Uphill is that we’re very education forward. Um, but I’d love to hear how you got a start in the sport and also just what, what kind of led you to be like, I’m gonna deep dive into just all like, getting into the sport, educating others, and how you educated yourself to get to that point.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely. And I love how you put such a big emphasis on education and learning in that ’cause. I truly believe that like a human fundamental principle in anything, whether it’s running or business or careers, relationships, anything of such to my core belief is that you can become anyone you wanna be, as long as you’re willing to learn and put in the work. And I think so many times, especially in ultra running, we can always think about it’s about putting in the work, putting in the work, putting in the work, which is very important. You have to do the work, you have to do the training, you have to put that in. But you know, if you do the wrong kind of work. You’re not gonna get the right results no matter how hard you work. And so that’s why that other learning component is so huge because even as you’re doing the work, like you might fail, you might do the wrong things, you might not end up in the direction you wanna be, but it’s that learning that helps you to level up along the way. And so I love that you have that big focus on education. ’cause it’s not just about putting in the work, it’s about learning too. And that was kind of like a huge, like emphasis in my journey. So where it kind of all started for me. So I actually got into running because I really wanted to get sober. I was, uh, when I was in school, when I was in first grade, second grade I was diagnosed with ADHD and I was put onto Adderall as a young kid.
And granted it really helped me through school. Like, ’cause I was the crazy kid who would always like, you know, he would just, I would just like be talking in class and just doing crazy stuff and everything. And that really helped me to stay focused, get good grades, be well-behaved, all those things as well. But over the years as I kind of grew and grew and grew, um, I started to develop this self-belief in myself. I could not be like a person who functions in normal society without taking Adderall. And inherently, if you dive deeper into that belief, it really was, I’m not good enough as a human being. And I really had this fixed mindset that I was born this person who had ADHD, and I couldn’t become someone who can operate in real life without drugs. Like that’s, that was my belief at the time. And this led me to even just get into even more substances and drugs and things. When I went to college, um, I was drinking heavily.
I was using hard drugs, mostly because I wanted to be something that I didn’t believe that I was right. I wanted to be confident, I wanted to be high performing. I wanted to be all these things too. But it just led to, again, it was driven by this lack of self-love that I had and also self-belief in myself. So all these bad decisions led to a time where basically my life blew up. I was dating a girl who I was gonna marry. She ended up dumping me. I was working on Wall Street. I ended up leaving the job from there, moved back with my parents, and I remember being on the floor of my childhood room and looking up at the ceiling and being like. Something’s gotta change or else I’m gonna die before I turn 30 years old. And I knew that the biggest thing I needed to do was like, get sober. And so going into that, um, I really like, my first learning journey on this is I literally went to Google and I just typed in how to get sober. Like that was, that was my way of figuring this out. And through all the things that I was learning out there, there was a common element. It was exercise. Now I saw that and I got a lot of fear because. I was not athletic at all. Like I had never ran more than a mile. I was always picked last at gym class for every pickup game. Like people would throw footballs at me because I would like to flinch or look weird or like anything as such, like I was just very unathletic. And I saw that and I was like, okay, well I’m not gonna go to the gym because I don’t wanna get made fun of. I was like, well, maybe I can just get some running shoes. I can run outside early in the morning. No one’s gonna see out there so I don’t have to be embarrassed, like, let me go ahead and do it. And um, so got some running shoes. Went out for like a quarter of a mile and it was the hardest quarter of a mile I’ve ever ran in my life. I was wheezing and just so just panting and just felt like my legs were killing me. But there was something about that I was like, oh, like I’m pushing myself here. And that was something that I’d never done before. And there was something that kind of unlocked at that moment. And I kept showing up day after day and ended up running half a mile, then a mile, then two miles and three miles, and signed up for my first 5K and ended up getting it done. And all along the way, like what I was doing was not just getting better at running. But I was building this belief that I can become something as long as I’m willing to learn and put in the work. And that not only led me to go from zero to 5K, but that allowed me to gain more confidence in myself to be sober. And so I ended up being, uh, getting sober six and a half years ago. That was like the last time I ever used any drugs, alcohol, anything as such too. So six and a half years since then. But along the way too, I’ve seen ultra running as a tool to keep getting better and progressing because it’s learning along the way. Um, and so for me, like ultra running is all about just learning how to be a better human. And I think that’s my vehicle. And it doesn’t have to be ultra running for a lot of people, but that’s it. But to answer your question about learning stuff, I found that the more that I learned about the sport, the better that I can get. And so I started the Everyday Ultra Podcast literally because I wanted to have amazing runners. Who are way smarter than me and have been doing this for years. And I wanted to learn from the best. And in my head I was like, well, they’re not just gonna talk to every, any other random Joe pun completely intended there. Um, but if I have a podcast, I would like, maybe that would give me a little bit of legitimacy and maybe other people wanna hear along the way. And so I started just having conversations with a lot of great athletes and lo and behold, a lot of other people were interested too. And it just became this whole ethos of the show with me to like, help listeners be a better endurance athlete by providing the tips, strategies, lessons, and everything. Because that’s what helped me to progress along the way and learning and iterating along the way. And so, like for me, there’s no way that I would be sober. There’s no way I’d be running the way I was if I wasn’t learning. And here’s the cool thing is like, I am, there’s nothing special or extraordinary about me, like I’m a human being.
And if you’re listening to this, like you’re a human being too. And I believe that we all have the ability to learn and implement that knowledge. And if we do that, we can get to wherever we wanna be. So that’s kind of like the whole ethos and, and where I’m from. And a very long-winded answer.

Alyssa: No, that’s, that was amazing. There’s like five things I wanna put a pin in to come back to, but you are special. I, yeah. It’s, you know, it’s funny because I think there’s always this balance between wanting to be special and also realizing you’re not special. I don’t, that’s a whole other concept to get into, uh, Steve House, who’s, you know, the owner of Uphill Athlete.
We talked about this quite a bit, but one thing that I wanted to ask is what led you from, okay, I want to exercise, I want to do a 5K too, yeah. I’m gonna pop in 50K in Hawaii. That was your first ultra. Um, yeah. What led to that decision ? Wanting to keep seeing maybe the distance or just you’d read a book sometime, like how did Ultras come into your, or onto your radar?

Joe: Yeah, this is such a great question and thank you for the kind words again too. Um, I think for me, like where I was really. When I was getting sober and when I got sober, like I had realized the thing that gave me the most belief in myself was making progress. And I truly believe, like for anyone listening now, like if you ever feel stuck in your life or you feel lost, or you feel just like in a rut. Anytime that I felt those things, the thing that’s helped me is like making progress at something. Because when you make progress at something, it’s forward motion, right? It moves you forward and you feel like you’re leveling up. And also you give yourself the self-belief that you can get out of any situation that you’re currently in. And so for me, like I had realized and kind of made the connection through my journey and you know, a lot of the times when I was running, when I was sober, like I wasn’t listening to music because I would just like reflect and think and just kind of try to process my thoughts as much as possible. And one of the connections that I made was, wow.
Like the more progress that I make, like the more fulfilled that I am and I will agree, like maybe at some points it did, it kind of led from this, you know, place of ego or also just like feeling like I needed to prove something. Um, and along the way, I mean, that’s something we could talk about, but I got healthier along the way about that and seeing healthy growth.
’cause I think there’s a difference between healthy growth and unhealthy growth, but. The whole kind of notion was like, the more that I push myself, like the better that I can, can believe in myself to do these harder things. So when I did this first 50 K, well, even just backing up a bit, I did my first 5K, which was, it was a Spartan race, 5K. I was into the obstacle races in the beginning, and it was in Killington, Vermont. Super steep. Yeah. You know?

Alyssa: got married. We got married to Killington.

Joe: Oh Yeah. So, you know.

Alyssa: Killington’s super steep and that’s a hard one. Yeah.

Joe: super hard. Um, I did not, I did not prepare well for it. I didn’t run any vert in my training at all, and I couldn’t even walk the next day. Like I was crushed. And, um, there was something so cool about that because I was pretty disappointed because I had also ran with one of my friends and he wasn’t putting in as much training and he totally my butt. And, uh, I love the kid too, so like, no bad malice on him, but it was like, for me, I was like, oh, like that, like really hurt.
But something about that was the first time in my life where I had failed at something where I felt like I did, even though I had finished it, I didn’t finish to like where I wanted to be, but I was almost excited by it. And so I was like, oh, I wanna learn what it takes to really get better. And that’s when I learned about fueling and that’s what I learned about like. Vertical gain training. And that’s when I learned about easy running. And I started to dive into a lot of those things. And that’s when I did my next 10 K, which was another Spartan race in the, in the mountains of New Jersey. And I did really well at that in my own standards and like, I was like, oh, like okay, like this is clicking and learning. And so I did a half marathon there too. And I just kept progressing and getting better along the way. Now for me, like at the time it was like I could go to a road marathon and do that next, but I was like, I kind of wanna keep pushing and just see how far I can take this. And I remember I had a mentor at the time and I was talking with him and I was like, oh, like I think I could do like a marathon. And he is like, well, do you think you can go bigger? And I was like, uh, maybe I don’t know. And he is like that’s why maybe you should go bigger ’cause you’re not sure. And he, I was like, and I was like, what do you mean by that? And he’s like, well, think about when you went sober, like, did you think you could do that? I was like, not a hundred percent at the time. And he is like, well, how did it feel when you did it? And I was like, amazing. He’s like, that’s because you, there was a sense of maybe I can’t do this. And so that made a connection to me where it was like, oh, these goals that I’m reaching, I think the more, like they become more exciting if there are a little bit of elements that, maybe I might not get it now, I think, right. Like setting a goal where it’s like a hundred percent unrealistic. Like I think that’s just setting yourself up for failure, things like
that too. But for me, like the 50k. I could have just done a flat 50 k, but the one in Hawaii, it’s 7,000 feet of vert. I was living in Wisconsin at the time, which we averted is not a thing out there.
So I was like, okay, like let me push myself and see what I can do and see how far, and just having a curiosity about that and got the 50 K done. It was, I think it was like 11 hours. Like it was definitely a long time out there. I battled it like I got blisters, like all over my feet. It was just crazy. Um, but it was so satisfying because I completed a goal that was a little bit like, can I do this? And I think my whole running career has been around that. And anytime I’m working with an athlete, like I always encourage them to think a little bigger. Not from the standpoint of like they’re not thinking big enough now, but I think if you just go for a goal that’s like a hundred percent achievable, I don’t think it’s gonna be as fulfilling than setting the goal that you, maybe there’s a small chance that it might not happen because when you do that, the level of self-belief you get is just unreal.

Alyssa: No, that makes total sense. I mean. I love that kind of mindset. I think it can be, it’s good to come back to over and over again where it’s like, yes, I, if this workout is hard enough, that means there’s a chance I could fail at it. Or like there’s a chance that I don’t execute it perfectly. ’cause if I do on the first try, it probably wasn’t hard enough. So, yeah, I do think there’s a ton to be said about that. I am curious, so forward progress was that like, I’m curious about the relationship between I’m gonna keep going further and further and further and if that continued to stay positive or if there was ever a downside of like, I am. For me personally, this is coming from a place I was trying to outrun something where it was like, how far can I go to outrun this? Um, fear of confinement was actually where I was coming from and, uh, be really sick. I was like, okay, I’m just gonna keep out running these ghosts. And guess what? Ghosts don’t go anywhere. You can run 200, you can run 350 miles and you will still have ghosts unless you like to sit next to you. So I’m curious how you were able to navigate that relationship of um, something that brought so much joy and and beauty into your life and has it stayed that or has there been another side to it as well?

Joe: This is such a good question and I appreciate you opening up about your background about this ’cause I think this is such a huge and important topic for anyone who goes into endurance sports because I think, I think almost every endurance athlete, there’s some part of us that always wants a little bit more. And I think a lot of that can stem from childhood experiences and how we were brought up and things like that too. Now for me, like I had I think an objectively very good childhood. We grew up in a very privileged environment and everything as such too. So, um, but as a kid, like my mom always had very high standards for me all the time. Like, I wanted to have like, and listen, this is nothing to her. Like, she wanted the
best for me and always wanted me to succeed, right? But if I got an A minus as opposed to an A. It wasn’t good enough. And so as a kid like that, I perceived that thing of like, oh, I need to get good results to, you know, be that. And as a child, that’s how I perceive that. And I think when we have these childhood perceptions, they shape our insecurities, they shape our thoughts, they shape all these things, right? Obviously we can go like down, like the rabbit
hole on this, but I think it’s very good for every endurance athlete to understand that a little bit more. And I think for me, like that took a lot of stuff. But really where it took for me though, was. It’s, I learned the hard way, and I’ll kind of tell the story onto that too. So when I was like, in this realm of like pushing myself, it was really from a place of self-growth when I had, and one of the things that I really wanted to push the dial on was like, how far could I go to push this narrative of like, I can become anyone who I wanted to become.
’cause like I said before, I had no background in running athletics, anything as such. And in 2022, um, I had this crazy idea where I started to think about like, well, how far can I push this? And in my head I was like, okay, well I just ran my first hundred miles and it was, you know, awesome. It was great. But I was like, okay, like what can I do to keep pushing it? And I was like, all right, well I could run a really competitive hundred miler. I was like, okay, that’s cool. That would be awesome. Well you can try to go for top 10 at like that race. I was like, okay, that’d be really hard. And it’s like, well, what if you try to go for a golden ticket at a golden ticket race? And I remember just getting this wave of fear over me and I was like, you know what, like. Let’s just give it a shot. Like, what, what the heck? Why not? And I trained so hard and um, I ended up getting 10th place that year in 2022, so far off from the golden ticket. But like in my mind I was like, whoa, like 10th place. Like what the heck? And again, I say this on the podcast here, not to brag or like to say this stuff. And by the way, like this is all a process that is built along the way by learning and putting in the work. Like that’s a big thing. And so if you wanna go for big goals like that, that’s all it takes. And that’s all I did. Obviously there’s like a lot of mechanics behind that, but that’s the whole belief that drives it. Now here’s the problem though. This is where it kind of got a little bad. I got into 10 places, people started reaching out, people started to, like, I started podcasts, started to grow. Like I started to now be a little bit on the map and. I think it built a lot of this pressure on me and I in the connection in my subconscious mind when all this was happening was, oh, I got this good result and like, all these people are loving me because of this result. And so when I, I wanna come back to Javelina next year, ’cause I was like, oh, if I can attend this year, like I can go for it next year. Like I can do it with like a whole year of practice and. I feel like that entire training block, and quite frankly that entire season was just driven by trying to perform well to get acceptance. Um, and I went to Black Canyon that year, had a terrible race, blew up, went out in the front of the pack and just blew up. Um, I went to 100k, and had the worst race of my career. I mean, just absolutely just imploded out there and it was awful. Um, and then I went to Javelina and I did worse than I did the year before that. And of course there were a lot of physical things, but if I really, it’s so important that you brought this up ’cause I was actually thinking about this this morning. So it’s, it’s very likely, timely that you thought this. But I was thinking about that and I was like, all those times when I went out there, I was running for the desire to be liked and loved and tied my self-worth to the achievements that I was putting in. And that was the unhealthy thing. And um, doing a lot of work with that and therapy and just self-reflection. [00:19:00] I realized that the most important thing is to go back to the roots of love. I did this for myself and for myself and not for fanfare and not anything else. Like, I even chose to run in the morning so no one could see me when I first started this thing out. ’cause I just wanted to do it for me. And so when I went into 2020, um, 2024, um, my whole goal was like, I need to make this year just about me. And, that’s what I’m gonna have to do. When I went to Cocodona, yeah, I wanted to compete. I didn’t, I didn’t, you know, come in the top 20, but still like I was super happy with the result ’cause it was the furthest I’ve gone. I did UA 100, which is like way outta my comfort zone and I got rocked. But hey, I was super proud of myself. And then at Javelina I went back. I never stated once on a podcast or anything that I was going for a golden ticket. Like my whole thing was just getting a PR and being the best I can for myself. And I ended up prying my time on like a 20 degree hotter day by like an hour and, and you know, 20 minutes, which was nuts. And again, I say that because again, there’s a lot of training stuff that goes into it, but I think the biggest mind shift for me was like, I’m doing this to like, for the betterment of me and not to be liked or seeing this as a sign of like self-worth, or not even self-worth, but just being accepted by other people. And I think if you’re doing things just for the condition of love for other people, um, it’s gonna crash and burn. And, and for me it was like I just need to be proud of myself and also not tie myself worth to like what the outcome is. Like I need to tie my self worth to, like, did I give it my all and did I believe in myself? And if I do two things, those two things, regardless of what the result is, I can be proud of myself. And that’s when I started to see my performance just exponentially increase, um, just from even just making that mind shift too, which has been super helpful.

Alyssa: Oh, I love that. I mean, it’s two things I wanted to touch on. Um, I work with a mental performance coach and we talk a lot about where we identify, where and when identity is formed. And it’s generally formed when you’re like 6, 7, 8 years old. And from what you said, your six, seven, 8-year-old old self was like, I can’t be loved because I am this way. And so as soon as you started feeding that identity, like, Hey, I’m loved if I keep doing this and I’m not gonna be loved if I don’t do this. It’s a recipe for disaster. Exact like, yeah. I feel so similarly because man, is it an ego trip when you’re in where your messages are just pouring in, where everyone wants to talk to you, everyone is like, wow, you had this result. That’s so cool. Like, I’m finally, these people are noticing me that have never noticed me and. It’s crazy. It feels so good because it’s like finally that 7-year-old is loved and that is just one voice. My, he calls it sheep and he’s like, there’s, there’s a bunch of sheep grazing and some of them are really freaking loud sometimes, and that is just part of all of those sheep, but [00:22:00] they are all of you, not just one. And so, and that 7-year-old one is like very, tends to be really loud at times. I’d say probably the one standing at the gate trying to get out, uh, as soon as something happens. But it’s crazy how, when you’re like, oh yeah, that stems from how I felt about myself at that age. And with the illnesses that I’ve had. I went from feeling. Capable. I, like, I didn’t, I didn’t even know I wasn’t supposed to be like, running with high school kids that I wasn’t supposed to be just like able to do anything. And then there came until I had the high school kids be like, we’re like, Alyssa can’t run with us because she’s annoying and we don’t like that she challenges us.
Um, and then my body let me down and so like, there’s always part of me that’s fighting that identity that’s like, I’m not good enough. I come in last in races, that I am not this person who could do anything. I am very limited and constrained and confined, hence that fear of confinement. So that was a long, very long-winded way to say like, it’s, I love that you brought that up because of that connection. Like it’s so powerful. Um. Shoot. What was the other, oh, the other thing I was going to say is that like, yeah, I love that, that last year you were like, I’m gonna do this for myself. And whenever I have found success in racing, it is never because I stand at the start line and I say, I believe that I am capable of doing my best today.
’cause I have put in the work to stand there. And that could be winning, that could also not be winning. But I know that I am going to do the best that I’m capable of doing today. And that is completely different than saying I don’t wanna lose or I have to come in the top three to prove my worth to my 7-year-old self. Sorry that there wasn’t a question there. It was just like, wow. Yeah, that’s
Joe: Well, it’s so good that you like to tie it to identity and just intention, like those two things. Even just sharing that, and again, I love that you’re being open about this. ’cause I think it’s like, it’s not something that’s talked about, I think too much in like a lot of the, you know, podcasts that I hear nowadays. So I love that you bring, ’cause like this is like the route to not only like the roadblocks in ultra running or training or anything, it’s just Life. Life. Like anytime we self-sabotage ourselves, it’s like that. I love that you bring up identity too because here’s like, even just like on a smaller scale where I see it like a lot of times, and I’m sure you do with. People you coach, and I’m sure like you see this, but if an athlete comes to me, they’re like, oh, like I’m just not a good climber, or I am not a good downhill runner or anything as such too. And I was like, whoa, whoa. Hold on a second. Like let’s, let’s change up this language a bit. Like maybe you say I’m not a good uphill runner yet. Like, because I think if I always catch myself giving that I like, that becomes an identity, right? If you identify as someone who’s not going to be a good uphill runner, then when you’re doing that, like that sheep inside your head, I love that analogy is gonna be like, hold on. Like you’re not a good uphill runner in whatever sheep voice or language that it says, right? And then like you’re gonna actually probably slow down a little bit or, ’cause the biggest human driver is how we identify. Because identity is one of the biggest things. Like an example that I always love to think about is like when you think about someone who goes, oh, I’m a vegetarian. They’re usually never cheating, but someone who goes on like a diet. They’re probably gonna have a cheat meal ’cause they’re like, oh, I’m on a diet versus I am a vegetarian. And like that’s their identity. And it’s like we will do whatever it takes to hold onto that identity. And so I think that’s always like a really just good thing to think about. Even just from, you know, the tactical standpoint of like, where are you identifying in your training saying you’re not like a good fast runner or I’m not fast. That’s one I hear all the time is like, I’m not fast. And it’s like, well, yeah, well if you look down at your watch and you see a faster split, your brain’s gonna be like, whoa. You are not fast, slow down a bit and you’re gonna self-sabotage yourself. But then on a deeper level, like you mentioned, like a lot of those identities come from six, seven, 8-year-old self. And that is like where you can think about in your life. Like, oh, like am I self-sabotaging? Is that 7-year-old voice causing me to pump the gas or make bad decisions? Or heck at the very worst, like you were mentioning, like not believing in myself or not loving myself to make these decisions that aren’t as guided in, in a healthy way. And I think anytime you make the decisions, like based on those limiting identities or limiting beliefs, um, yeah, it just crashes and, and burns. And so, you know, kind of sharing from my thing, and I know you mentioned your area too. It’s, I think and the first step is just being aware of it. Like, I think, I think the biggest thing for me that has helped me in my journey is just like. And I, and you know, I go to therapy and also too, but I do a lot of time thinking like one of the biggest piece of advice I ever got in my entire life was like, and I’ll never forget this, I was running and at the time I used to work at a tech startup, this is a couple years ago. And I was just curious about how a CEO operates. And I was running with a CEO that I’d never met before and I was like, what do you feel is the biggest thing for your success? And he goes, dude, he’s like, I spend like two hours a day just thinking. I was like, what? I was just thinking. He’s like, yeah. I literally just like to sit and think, and I just write my thoughts down and that’s it. I was like, so two hours, like you’re not doing anything. Like you’re literally just thinking. He’s like, yeah. He’s like, but let me tell you, like that thinking has allowed me to take more intentional action in my life. I thought about that for a second because I was like, wow. Even as I analyze my own, like everything that I did running work, everything in life, like I was just so go, go, go and action oriented and everything as such too. But sometimes we never give that self to pull back and just actually think and see like, are we making the right decision? Am I being aligned with my own values and priorities and things that I wanna do too? And for me, I always dedicate like one hour every day just to think and just write down my thoughts and put it down and look at them and challenge them. Or even if I do something and I’m like, why did I do that? And I like to analyze that. And I think the more that you can understand your own thinking, the more you can get aligned towards where you wanna go in life. And even if you apply to running, the more you understand how you think, the more you can be more resilient to your own mind when you’re in these races because.

Alyssa: putting it on. Yeah.

Joe: Mile 70, mile 80 and a hundred mile race, that brain’s gonna throw all of that negative war power at you to try and stop you. But if you understand what’s going on behind the hood, that stuff has a lot left. Less power over you. And I think that’s been like one of the most transformative things in my life, is just giving myself some time to think. It’s something I encourage everyone to do for not just being a better athlete, but just like a better human being overall.

Alyssa: That’s fantastic advice. Uh, I really love that ’cause it’s just, I think, one of the tricky pieces and something. We face all the time with endurance sports. We tend to trust the narrative that is the loudest. And we, we grasp onto that of like, this is who I am, this is what I’m gonna do, this is what I’m capable of. Um, and we believe that to be completely true. And when you give yourself the time to think, you can pull back on that absolute all in just like ground, you know, all in identity and be like, huh, well that’s one thought. Okay, here’s five other thoughts. Or like, here’s another way that this is shaping the entire T of who I am versus this one really loud voice. And so, yeah, I think just giving yourself more space to take a second to act on that. And B, just form a well-rounded opinion of yourself and what you’re trying to do. Because I feel like, I mean, I wanna kind of tie this to mountain sports, and this is one of the many reasons I wanted to have you on is because you’ve talked a lot about becoming the person who is capable of doing X, Y, and z mountain sports, climbing Denali, climbing Everest, um, you know, sending a really hard route. The success rate of finishing an ultra and doing that climb is drastically different. I would say if you are able to summit maybe 20 to 30% of what you set out to do is an incredible success rate. Ultras, you’re talking like. Hopefully above 50 50. Like I know John Kelly has this, like, if I hit 40% of the goals that I set for myself, that’s really good. Which I don’t disagree with. I think it’s much easier to finish an ultra. Like whether or not you completely hit your goal, you’re probably gonna finish summiting a mountain. Very, very different. And so I’d love to dive in a bit more because I always wanna encourage myself. I have some clients who are like, um, I just wanna stand on the summit. I’m like, whoa, okay. Or they’re really concerned about the actual climb. And I’m like, but it’s all these steps of being someone who can do that climb who is capable. When a year ago you didn’t think that was even possible. And so I would love to hear how you frame things for both yourself and for your athletes, less around the outcome. More around. It’s so awesome that I am the person who’s even capable of, of believing this is possible, of becoming this person.

Joe: Oh, I love that. And I love that you tie that to mountain sports, right? Where it’s like the outcome is far, far harder

Alyssa: It’s pretty low, and it should be because of the danger factor. Like,
Yeah, bad things can happen in Ultras, but there’s a lot more wiggle room in the mountains. There’s no wiggle room. Like you have to be definitive in your decision making

Joe: And also there’s just so much outta your control with those, you go up into higher altitudes. I mean like, gosh, like storms can roll through. Conditions can change like so many things that are outta your control. So I think it’s an even better analogy for what you’re asking for. And I love this because I think this is such a huge thing. And even just going back to, you know, kind of where I always mentioned before, so tied up in my self worth and the outcome, like this is something that I had to learn along the way. And the thing that I always do, even when I’m working with athletes. And talking with them, it sounds like you’re very much aligned to this too as well, is any time that they like sign up for a race or a goal or something that they have, the thing that I always wanna stress is that the process has to be even way more worth it than the goal that you are going for. So for example, like I recently had an athlete come to me and they’re like, oh, I wanna do Cocodona 250 next year. And I’m like, okay, like that’s awesome. It’s a big goal. Like it’s amazing. And I was like, well, like why do you wanna do it? And they’re like, well, like the race just seems super cool and I would just love to get the finish and I would love to get that belt buckle and have an amazing accomplishment. I was like, awesome. Great. Like I love that. That’s amazing. And I was like, okay, well what do you think about the training kind of style going into it? And they’re like, well, what kind of training is it gonna be? He was like, well, like we’re probably gonna have to increase volume here. It’s gonna be a lot of hiking versus running. It’s gonna be pretty much different, this is a runner who has been doing a lot of running, running races, so it was very very different. And they were like, I don’t think I’d enjoy that very much. And I was like, well, I’m gonna be a hundred percent honest with you. I don’t know if maybe this is the right goal for you. And they’re like, well, what do you mean? Like, this is something that I really wanna do. And my philosophy is like, you gotta love the process so much more than the goal itself. Because again, like you said, it’s so good if it’s not about the belt buckle, it’s not about the finish, it’s not about the outcome that you get on race day, I guess in Cocadona race days. Um, but all that being said, it’s not, it’s about the process, but even more than just the process, it’s about who you become along the way. Like that is the most important thing. And if you can find the value in that, it doesn’t matter what happens on the day that you go out and do it. And the way that I always think about it is like if you look at a whole process. Like, call it like training for a mountain race or anything, or training for that big climb like you were mentioning, like that is months and months and months and days and days and days and hours and hours and hours of hard work and dedication and pushing yourself and learning and falling on your face and failing and getting back up and getting better and having the wins, and having the lows and doing all those things. But when you do your attempt like that is a small, small percentage of the overall entire process that you put into it. So the way that I always think about it, it’s like if you put all your weight onto those, like one to two to three days, however many days like your goal’s gonna take versus the grand scheme of the whole thing, like. You can set yourself up for some real big disappointment. ’cause number one, anything can happen on those three days and completely outta your control, especially with mountain sports, right? Whereas, over the course of a long enough timeframe, yes, there can be unexpected unexpected stuff along the way, but on a long enough timeline, you have a little bit more agency over how you handle that process. And I think that’s like the big thing, even just from an application perspective where I always say it’s like the process because 99% of the journey, you’ve gotta love it a lot more and celebrate yourself on that too. But I also tell athletes this, if you go through the process and you like to nail the training, and when I say nail the training, it’s not making up every single workout or anything as such too. But you, you hit everything exactly. Yeah. 80 percent’s great. And, and by the way, I see, I’m sure you do too. I see that a lot of times with athletes, like if they miss like one or two work, it’s like, oh, the training’s ruined. It’s

Alyssa: Oh my gosh. I’m like, you missed one day. You’re good. Then you have ones that miss five days a week, and they’re like, so I’m fine to do the 50K tomorrow. Right? And you’re like, uh, no. I mean, you’re an adult. Go for it. But I would not recommend this.

Joe: Right. I know it’s always like that balance scene, like don’t wanna miss too much, but if you miss one or two here and along the way, that’s totally okay. Life happens. But I think if you nail the training, but most importantly, like if you become a better person than you were in the beginning of the training block. It doesn’t matter what happens to you on race day. And I’ll give you an example about this really recently for me. So I was training my butt off of the Arizona Monster 300 when I did Cocadona. It was my first 200 mile race. And I learned so much along the way and I was so excited about that. So going into Arizona Monster, I was excited to learn all those lessons and be better based on what I learned before. And I probably trained the hardest that I did out of any race, any training block ever. And I was just, not even just like a way better athlete, but just a way better person because I had more priorities. My business was growing. Like, you know, I was, you know, me and my wife were trying to build a future together and everything too. And so there was a lot of stuff I had to navigate, but I still hit all the goals and training that I wanted to and I became this stronger person and that was awesome. And I told myself right before the race, I was like, yeah, I would love to win this race. But also at the same time, it doesn’t matter at all. People were so shocked when I said that. They’re like, what do you mean it doesn’t matter at all? I was like, yeah, the win would be nice, but that’s just a consequence to like the build of the process of like the person that I became along the way. And that’s the big win. And then funny enough in the race, like what happened was like I ended up running 200 miles, nearly flawlessly in my opinion. Like based on what I did at Cocoadona. And then my knee ended up swelling up. I couldn’t bear any weight on it. It was horrible. It was awful. And I ended up making the decision to pull outta the race ’cause I didn’t wanna risk long-term injury. And that was a big challenge. I remember like my own thoughts playing in my head was saying like, yeah, you said this didn’t matter. And of course like the DNF hurt, but you know what, yeah, it didn’t matter because I came out of that race like just a way better person. Not even just the race itself, but the whole process, A way better person. And to me that was the biggest win of all. And I think that was such a realization even for me. Like even after going to DNF, I was still so proud of myself. And I think that’s not something to say like, oh, I’m a very optimistic person or positive person. It’s like if you can come out of like even a goal that you didn’t hit, but you’re proud of who you became along the way, like that’s huge. Because even during the race for the 200 miles that I ran, I believed that I could win. And that belief, I would’ve rather gone 200 miles, believe that I can win the entire time and drop out than actually go through and come in second place, not thinking that I had the belief to win. And I think that belief is greater than any win that I could have ever had in my entire life. And I think that’s like, that’s the true thing that I get super stoked about.

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Alyssa: I love that you can still sit there and say that ’cause it is one thing to say like, I don’t care if I summit, I don’t care. Like I just, you know, I grew. But to actually be like, yeah, I still believe that. Like, that means it was really firm. And I can tell you’re like, like you get psyched about it. I love it. Um, yeah, what, you know, I, I find it really interesting and I’m curious how you manage this with your athletes as well, but when I, we get a lot of people who, they’ve always dreamed of climbing Rainier. They’ve always dreamed of climbing Denali. And so it’s very often this kind of one-off thing where they’re like, we’re gonna train super hard for four months. We’re gonna go climb Rainier, and then I’m gonna go back to normal life, which is amazing. But I always, I’m a little bit sad when that happens because to me, I always hope that someone sees this as building who you are. And also like me. The mental training coach brought this up to me, but like, building your legacy. Like what do you want to leave behind? What do you wanna impact? Who do you wanna impact? And does that race, that singular race, that climb, et cetera, define the overall picture of the legacy. Or is it who you’re becoming along the way, the people you’re impacting, the lives you’re changing, the life you are actually changing, um, within yourself. And so I think, first off, I’m so glad that you did not push because so often people are like, it doesn’t matter. I’m just gonna gut it out. And, uh, I’m very much not into that. Camp may be a little bit too much of a fault at times where I’m like, yeah, you know, like this just, it isn’t worth putting myself in this massive hole of risking future injury because I try to really have that bigger picture in mind. And I think that when we get so focused on this race result, this summit is going to make or break my entire legacy, or it’s the only reason standing out summit’s the only reason why I wanna train for it. It’s, I just, I wanna keep encouraging people that it’s so much more than that. It’s so much bigger. It’s so much longer in the scheme of our life to invest in that process than that very singular, honestly, incredibly narrow like success or failure.
Joe: Yeah, a hundred percent. And it’s, it reminds me a lot, like even just you like mentioning this too, one quote that like totally changed my life and, and something that I think, and this is how I even explain it to athletes too, like when they’re very like, set about a race too, like, um, I always like this quote always comes back to me and that is when people have a really good story or they see a really good story and they get very inspired by the character, they’re not inspired by the outcome that they get, but they’re inspired about how hard they worked to go for the thing. And, and I always think about Rocky, from Rocky, like from the movie Rocky, that’s like one of my favorite things ever. And sorry to spoil, um, the movie if you haven’t seen it yet. But he doesn’t win in the end. Like he doesn’t win, he loses. But he’s a guy who went from someone who was like a deadbeat on the street. No one believed in him and he worked his butt off when he got the opportunity of a lifetime to fight the champ. And he went the distance [00:43:00] for him for 12 rounds, which I don’t think had ever been done before. And he ended up not winning, but. He lost the mo and that’s known as one of the most inspirational movies of all time. And again, like he didn’t win, but he became this person and that’s why it’s known as one of the greatest things of all time. And so I think about that every single time. Like someone’s like, I want to, you know, show myself that I can do this thing. And in my head I’m like, well, if something happens on race day or whatever, and like, you don’t do this thing like. At least if you can be the person on the start line and you believe in yourself that you can do it. And of course there’s objective measures like as an athlete, like you’re hitting the right paces and things like that too, that you can measure in training. But even just beyond that, like if you just believe that you can do it, like that’s the most important thing at the end of the day. Because if you build yourself to believe that you can do it, anytime you have a goal in your life, like for the long term that you wanna do, like you can still go ahead and do those things. And even for me, like from a longevity perspective, I think, I think that even comes when I’m working with athletes like. I think it’s so important for athletes to have a vision of where they want to go and, and not necessarily just for the race, but like if they’re like, oh, I wanna do this for a while, it’s like, okay, well then what do you wanna do for that long term? So I have them really zoom out and like to go over what they wanna do for the next few years. Not map it out because things change, but at least like have a direction, right? It’s like, oh, I wanna do UTMB one day. Oh, I would love to go for this FKT, or I would love to run Cocadona one day. And it’s like, great. Like now you have this vision and then that way too, like you’re not so pigeonholed until like one specific race or event because you know that there’s a greater thing that you are reaching for. So like for me with Arizona Monster, it’s like, yeah, I want it to win that, but like. Long term, I’d love to go out and be very competitive at Cocadona in 200 mile races. And if I had just gutted it out for the finish there, like I could have blown out my knee and then probably not be running for like a while. And I knew that just didn’t hit the long-term vision. And so like that way it doesn’t get you so like myopic on like the one specific race because what you’re really out there for is that long-term vision of what you’re going towards. And I think that I can do a lot of things, like even when I think about it. Like athletes who deal with post-race depression or everything. And like, I get it from time to time, there’s a very neurological and biochemical thing that happens in your brain that goes on with dopamine levels and everything. But beyond that point, I see that more commonly in athletes who don’t have a goal after the goal.
And I’m not saying you have to have a race signed up before you finish the next one, but at least like if you know that there’s a long-term direction and you finish that one race or maybe whatever happens on that summit or anything that you do, like, you know, you’re still working towards something. And anytime like people feel lost in life, it’s because they usually don’t have an aim for what they’re shooting for. And so like, I think that’s like a really good way to not only like. Make the right decisions in the race, but also not to put so much stock into it if things go right or wrong, but also to keep that longevity going for a long enough timeline. So I think having a great vision for who you wanna be as an athlete, as a person, as a partner, as whatever area of your life is, I think that’s incredibly important.
Something I always encourage my athletes to do.

Alyssa: Oh, I love that. I think, yeah, it, and it, that long-term plan, I mean, I always have five to, like, I have five to 10 years always planned out. Like, okay, this is gonna be, this is where we’re gonna go. I’m sure you do as well. It also releases that pressure of the, I have to get it right this one time or it’s never going to happen again.

Joe: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: It’s like if we truly care about something and the people around us care about us being the best version of ourselves, we’ll get another chance. Hopefully, like, you know, obviously life happens where unexpected things come up, but like, I think having this all or nothing. Mentality around I either do this today or it’s never gonna happen again, it is super dangerous.
And also like, I think you’re gonna get another chance. Like that’s hopefully, especially again with mountains where it’s like quite literally life or death sometimes if you make that push. Um, yeah, I think just continuing to hold that, like maybe it’s not going to look exactly the same. Also, I was just thinking about this the other day where, um, I was thinking about like, people often talk about when they have kids where they’ll be like, I, my old self is dead.
Or like, I will never be the person I was before I had this kid. And I think so often about how when we accomplish a huge goal. We will never be who we were or we don’t before that. And so often I catch myself doing this in training, I’m sure my athletes do where they’ll be like, well, when I did this training, it went really well in this regard. Or you’re thinking back on a workout and you’re like, but I absolutely nailed that workout. It’s like, but you aren’t Joe or Alyssa from last September. You’re here now. Like, you have so many things that have happened since then. And like, yeah, I’ll be like, oh, well I did this workout really well before I got hurt, and like, why am I not doing it this way? Or why is this happening? It’s like, well, because you’re a different person. And I think it’s really scary to think about, like, I get at some point will have kids and I’m terrified of the concept of. Old Alyssa is going to be dead. It’s like, well, first of all, maybe we can be less morbid in the way that we say that. Um, but I do think that it is, it’s like letting go also of who you were, because you are never gonna be that person. Like you’re always going to be something different than what you were a week ago, a month ago, two years ago. And I think that often leads to discomfort. After the event I was reading, is it Caleb Olson who won? Uh, Transvulcania. Sorry. Caleb. Yeah. And he wrote this beautiful piece where he was like, I am not the person, like. I became someone who could win trans Kenya. And I cannot just keep pushing upwards because that’s not how it works. I have to settle who I am right now, the level that I’m at, and it might dip a little bit.
It might, but I can’t just keep going like this. And I just thought it was like, I’ve thought a lot about getting hurt. It’s actually like in many ways hurt’s still really emotional to me. ’cause I have felt like I just need to be on this ever increasing angle. And I know that’s not realistic. I say this to my athletes. Everyone says this to themselves, but I am not who I was before I was hurt. I am the person afterwards and I need to sit in that and be okay with that. And also be like, I can’t keep leveling up. Like, yes, you can level up a lot, but it’s actually like my coach, I’ll say like steps forward and steps backwards and he’ll be like, they’re just steps. And so I think there’s so much to be said about when we’re feeling that angst, like we do need that direction, I think to kind of ground us of what is next, but also sitting and thinking of being really comfortable, just resonating in the moment of like, okay, I’m actually, I’m really not like, I’m okay with not being the person that I was before her, before kids, et cetera. You know, these big life events and I’m growing into who I’m becoming and that is, is uncomfortable. It’s beautiful, it’s messy, it’s raw, and that is powerful. Um, so yeah, I guess who, who is Joe at this moment? Having worked so hard to put yourself out there of winning Arizona and you Yeah. You were there for sure. Who are you right now in like absorbing all of those pieces?

Joe: Yeah. Well, so, so beautifully said too about everything that you mentioned in there. I love that. I think that’s so great, especially for people who are going through big transitions in life, right? Like either getting married or having kids or, you know, maybe, you know, moving on from, you know, diff like, I think about even like Des Lindon now, and the journey that she’s about to go on where, you know, she’s been ripping the marathons and now she’s going to the ultras. Like, it’s like a whole different kind of thing. And so I’m excited to see that. So I think it’s a very, very important thing to think about. Now for me, like, I guess like, you know, and we were kind of talking about this before, like Arizona Monster and I. I’m very grateful about the way that it went because if I had just gone out and stripped and won that race. Who knows, like, and I don’t know what it would be, but I would probably guess to assume, like I would’ve leaned more towards the ability of like, oh, like I nailed it. And that was awesome and that was great, but I didn’t, and I actually didn’t finish the race and I had a knee issue happen. And to kind of give some context on that too, just a little bit more tactically, like what had happened was I had a muscular imbalance in my hips and for a hundred miles, like basically my, my whole plan was like, oh, okay. I’m like, if I was training for a hundred mile race, I would strength train one time a week. Now this imbalance was so small that if I ran a hundred miles, it wouldn’t hurt or wouldn’t cause any issues. And when I did Coke, I did a lot of hiking. So like it never really had the issue, but I ran everything that I did, that was either flat or downhill. And so when you do that over the course of 200 miles, when you’re running really hard, that imbalance is gonna cause some issues and have that there too. And basically it was a lack of strain training. Now why the heck am I going onto the tactical stuff? Well. Here’s the thing. If that didn’t happen to me at the Arizona Monster, I wouldn’t have known that I can be a better runner if I strength trained a lot more and took that a lot more seriously. And that lesson that I learned is going to make me a better person after that race. And so, like, I think the, the trying, the whole thing that I’m trying to encourage here is that like, even if you have a bad race or it doesn’t go your way, you can still come out a better person. And in fact, I’ll even say this, I would even argue, and, and I’m not saying intentionally have bad races or anything, like that’s not
my mom here too, you’re gonna become an even better person after a bad race than a good race. I think that full heartedly. So, because in my journey, and I, I always think about the timeline of life, success is never linear. There’s always ups and downs and everything like that. The story that I always bring myself up to countless times again is Jim Wamsley at Western States. Like the first year he went to go do it. He was on track to win a course record, took a wrong turn, went off course, walked it in, ended up not getting first place. Next year he comes back and he goes out and he DNFs the race does worse than he did the year before. So now he’s actually like going down third year he comes back to the course record and then continues to go on a tear. It took Jim three times and then guess what? Not only did he get that, then he went to UTMB again, like didn’t get it, didn’t get it, didn’t get it. Boom, come back. Now he’s the course record holder. And so I think about that a lot. It’s like, well Jim, everyone sees this now. But I think with Jim, like people don’t understand. It’s like he probably learned so much from those experiences. And I even think about my journey. It’s like even when I was just trying to get sober, there were days where I was like, today’s the day I’m gonna stop taking it. And I would make it until like 2:00 PM and then I would have headaches and stuff and then I would go back to it. But those opportunities allowed me to learn what I need to, to be better so I can control my mind to get sober. All the bad races that I had liked. For example, like we mentioned before, in that whole season I had where it was just terrible and it was driven by this need to feel accepted. I only learned that because I had those bad races. And every time I’ve had those bad races, I’ve implemented those lessons and I became better along the way. And so like for me, like I always tell people, it’s like when you have a failure, and I don’t even wanna say failure, it’s really just a lesson. Like there’s no such thing as losses. There’s just lessons. It’s either you win or you learn. And because of that, failure is the most data rich source of information you can ever get in your entire life. Because like now, you know something that you can do to get better at that thing. For me, for Arizona monsters, hey, you need to strength training a lot more and take this very, very seriously. If you wanna run two hundreds, awesome, that’s great. How can I not get excited about that? ’cause now I have a path to be better in the future. And so yes, it’s okay. You hear me right now, all jazzed up. But what you don’t hear is also right after I dnf. Yes, there were tears. Yes, it hurts. I’m not saying that it doesn’t hurt. It does. Let yourself feel that and honor that. And I’m not just trying to say, be a blind optimist and be like, yeah, everything’s okay. But I think the thing that everybody, like once you let all of that pain and maybe just grieving of the result, kind of go past. The thing that always gets me excited again is that. On a long enough timeline, as long as I keep showing up and applying the lessons for my failure, I will get to where I need to be. And, and that’s like the coolest thing is that like, and again, to go back to your thing of like, ’cause it’s never about that one race. Like it might take you one time, two times, three times, heck, it might even take five times. But if you keep getting back up. You learn the incredible treasure trove of information you got from that failure. And you keep the belief in the human element that as long as you’re willing to learn and to put in the work, you will get there. And again, it’s not about the outcome, it’s about who you become to get to that process. And failure is inevitable. Part of the journey. Our mutual friend, Killian Korth, was gonna pace me out at Arizona Monster. And I remember he told me this as soon as I dropped. He’s like, listen man, failure is a part of the journey to success. And I was like, that is so true. And so like, although the story is still being written now, like I know in the future I’ll look back on Arizona Monster and be like, that was one of the best things that ever happened to me in my life. And I, it, it is scary to say that because it still does hurt to some extent. But I think about even Javelina, like I was telling on the journey there, I would’ve not had that performance if I didn’t have that horrible performance a year before guaranteed. And I think that makes you so grateful for every single heartbreak, loss, failure, whatever those things are. And I think that. When you want to even just bring it back to your point, if you don’t put your stock in the outcome and you put your love in the process, you become much more compassionate about your failures. And I think that is gonna keep you in the game a lot longer ’cause you’re not gonna see it as a semblance of self worth. You’re gonna see it as a propeller to get better.

Alyssa: Amazing. Yeah, I truly look at the races that have gone quite unquote really well, and I’m like, huh, it worked. Okay, move on. Like, there’s so little, honestly, there’s very, very little that I actually learned from it, whereas every single time, uh, I have had. I’ll call ’em big DNFs. Like it felt like, oh my gosh, that one crushed my soul a little bit. The outcomes have been absurdly positive, like changing my life positively, and it’s, you have to be willing to be open to that. But that’s not to say like, Madeira last year, DNF, and I was honestly sadder than I was, I was so sad. I was like, going on a hike, being like, I hate everything. Everything is ugly. I just, I don’t wanna talk to anyone. I wish this little kid would move out of my way. Like I was so grumpy. Or I was just sad. Like I was really, really sad. And it actually was because so many things had been building up, um, that I needed to actually let go of my old coach. Like, there were so many things and it was like I had to have that to grow. And growth is uncomfortable, but it’s so I could not agree more that yes, failure is, and again, not my favorite word, but like that’s what we say is so data rich because it gives us like, oh, that didn’t work. Okay, cool. Wow. I have so much to go off of. And what’s kind of funny is that, uh, I just recently also had a DNF we’re kind of reminiscing about. Being like, uh, able to collaborate on that feeling. I realized that I was literally trying to fix things that weren’t broken. I was like, I’m gonna fix all these things. I’m gonna bring in X, Y, and Z to level up to get better because I just want to, to keep growing. And I was like, wait, but actually you were fixing things that were not broken.
Like stop trying. I told like two of my coaches, I was like, when I next spring, have like, hopefully, you know, a great summer, fall, whatever. And in spring I try to change everything again. Please just tell me to sit on my hands, like, tell me that it’s not broken. We’re not trying to fix it. Stop. Because I’m always, I’m always like, get this itch of like, I’ve gotta, I’ve gotta do this, I’ve gotta do that. Like this could be better. That could be better. It’s like, well actually, if you overdo it, you’re gonna push things out of alignment that we’re actually. Not broken. So it’s, uh, it’s so funny where it’s like, last year I needed to make a really drastic change and this year it was like I made a drastic change that I shouldn’t have and I should have just been a little bit more conservative and been like, yeah, this is working really well. So that’s just, uh, if you learn so much from those moments for sure.

Joe: Yeah, a hundred percent. And, and I love the way that you even described it too, where it’s like when you have a great race, it’s kinda like, oh, like that was awesome and that was great. Like it almost, I don’t wanna say, I think it like subconsciously is one of those things where it’s like you, like, I feel like anytime I’ve had like A DNF or anything of that such, or, I mean I’ve only had 1 DNF, but anytime I’ve had like a race that didn’t go the way that I wanted to, like, there’s always like kind of like this little bit of a drive that kind of comes back, like not, and you gotta be careful, right? ’cause you don’t want it to be like this, like drive of self worth, but almost like drive of like. I want to get better. Like, I want to get better now. I say want not need, like, you know, ’cause I think that’s a whole different thing. You feel like you need to get better. That’s a whole different story. But it’s like, I think even so, like going through a race that like hadn’t gone my day is a, like, almost gives me drive to like want to be better. Like, I even think about that first five I talked about where I got crushed, you know, but like, that drove me to wanna go for that 10 K. I don’t know if I would’ve gone for the 10K, like if I didn’t even have like the bad 5K. And I think that’s like a beautiful part of the process. And I remember when I had that horrible race at Javelina, I remember like, my whole goal was like, I need to, or I shouldn’t say need, but like, I really wanna go into Javelina next year. And I was so driven to like, just, just motivated to, to, to get it in a great way.
And, and I did. And that was awesome. But even after that I felt like that was a great race and that was awesome. And I think with the wins, it’s always good to just be even humble if you have them. And also understand that. There’s still even stuff to learn along the way. And that doesn’t come from a place of like, even if you nail it, like don’t always look at the bad things and have a negativity bias. But I think we always, as humans, have to be continually learning. Like, and I think, you know, as a coach for me and your coach as well, I’m sure you can relate to this, like we were seen as like experts and, and we have a lot of knowledge in the sport, but I think every great coach and every great person and athlete we’re always learning. And I think that’s the most beautiful thing about life is that life is just a game where we’re learning and nobody has figured it out. And if they say that they have it figured out, then
you know,

Alyssa: Run away. Run away.

Joe: Not good. Um, but that’s the most beautiful thing. The most, like there’s no better game than the game of life. And I think what makes it so great is that we’re finding clues and puzzle pieces and lessons and nuggets of information along the way. And of course sometimes it’s painful and it stinks and we’re covered in blood, sweat, and tears and it’s awful, but. Would you wanna have it any other way? Because you look back and you write the most epic story of all time. Like, once you do come back from that, and that’s just like the coolest thing of all time. Not to like, you know, get the hype from people, but the coolest thing for you is to not look back and be like, I didn’t let that failure define me. And I didn’t let that, that setback put me in the place. Like, and I overcame that. Like, that’s the coolest thing, like a really, really awesome book. Um, I, he’s called like, How bad Do You Want It? Great book. Um, Fitzgerald, I think Scott Fitzgerald is the author. Um, it could be, um, or and it might be Matt Fitzgerald. It’s

Alyssa: I think it’s Matt. ’cause I’ve read. I’ve read it. Yeah. How bad do you want it? Yeah.

Joe: Yeah. Shout out to Matt Fitzgerald. Yeah. So, but like in there it says like, there’s no greater feeling than feeling like you’re going to give up and then showing yourself that you didn’t, and like, I’m like, oh, like that is so good. And I think if you can do that in life, like that’s amazing. And again, like giving up doesn’t necessarily mean, you know. Running through an injury in a race. That’s not what I’m saying, but I’m talking about a long enough timeline. Like again, like not in the thing, but if you keep getting back up on the long enough timeline, that’s the thing that is just gonna lead to fulfillment. Then beyond.

Alyssa: Oh, that’s, I love it. It is Matt Fitzgerald. I just looked it up.

Joe: Yes. Shout out Matt.

Alyssa: Yeah, No, he’s, he’s got some great books for sure. Um, yeah, well I feel like that, I mean, we could talk for hours. Um, definitely I feel like it’s gonna happen. Uh, but I feel like that’s a great place to wrap at this point. Um, Joe, can you tell people where they can find you, um, about the podcast? Yeah, that would be awesome.

Joe: Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me. And by the way, if you’re listening to this podcast, I mean, you are in great hands with an amazing host and person here in Alyssa. So I just wanna say like, if you wanna continue to just be a better person, like keep listening to Alyssa and, and diving into her world and everything. So huge shout out to you, my friend, and you are doing amazing things for athletes all across the world. So just wanna say Thank you.
for doing you. So we have the Everyday Ultra podcast. You can find us wherever podcasts are at. Um, just search Everyday Ultra and you’ll see a picture of me. I think running my first 50 miler is what the cover is. I keep it there too, it’s almost like a good reminder to see how far we’ve come along the way. Um, but yeah, we post episodes every week. Alyssa’s been on the show. Also listen to the episode, Alyssa, it’s so good. Um, and uh, yeah, so we’d love to have you there too. And, um, yeah, just honored, honored to be on this amazing podcast.
You have been listening for a while and it’s just so great just to, uh, to be here and share just such great ideas with you. So thank you for having me on the show.

Alyssa: Well, thank you for being on. I feel like I didn’t even ask you that many questions. It was more just like riffing off of conversations. So thank you for going with the flow on that of normally I’m a little bit more asked, I was just like, wow, you just made me think of this. So thanks for, for contributing so much and um, yeah, definitely check out the podcast. It’s awesome. Joe has such a beautiful way of getting, like, getting his guests to really open up in, in ways that are unique and, and really powerful. So, um, definitely recommend it. And um, Joe, what do you have coming up next?

Joe: So, thank you by the way. I appreciate it. I have Tahoe 200 coming up in June 13th, so, um, this, I’m kind of glad I was signed up for Tahoe originally ’cause my plan was like I was gonna do Arizona Monster and do Tahoe just to kinda like see what it’s like to do very close back to back multi-day events. Because I’d never experienced that before. Um, but now it’s like I wanna race Tahoe. ’cause originally the plan was I wanted to just kind of just finish it, just kind of see what it was like. I knew it wouldn’t be a hundred percent after the Arizona Monster, but now after coming to that I was like, I wanna race this and perform well and go for the podium.
So, um, yeah, that’s the next thing. The knee is like pretty much at 99% now. So we’re back to almost full training, which is great. So we should be able to do that. And then Kodiak 100 at the end of the year, hoping to nab a top 10 spot to get into UTMB ’cause the lottery has not been as nice to me. Um, so we’re, we’re gonna try to make our own luck and if not. If, you know, if TA doesn’t go well, and if code eight doesn’t, well again, doesn’t matter. I’m just excited about who I could become in the process, and that’s the biggest thing.

Alyssa: Love that. Awesome. Well, thank you for listening to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. If you can rate, review, subscribe helps us to help more athletes. It’s not just one, but a community. We are uphill athletes.

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