Performance at Altitude

00:00.00
Alyssa
Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast our mission is to elevate and inspire all mountain athletes through education and celebration. My name is Alyssa Clark and I will be your host Today. We are talking about performance at altitude and I’ve brought on. None other than uphill athlete coach Jerome Sullivan he is an IFMGA guide and appeal at to or winner in 2016 among many other accomplishments welcome to the podcast room.

00:29.23
Jerome
Hey Elissa Thanks for having me.

00:32.23
Alyssa
Of course I’m glad that we are getting to get to know you more on the podcast and hear more about your experiences at altitude and performing. Um some pretty amazing mountaineering and alpinism feats while you’ve been. Ah. Ah pie.

00:50.97
Jerome
Um, so maybe I’ll just kind of present myself and so I live in ah in France now I’ve been living here for thirty ish years so I grew up in in The States of New Hampshire but I’ve been living in France for a long time and i. Started mountaineering here actually in the pyrenees which is a small mountain rage in the south of France for those who know and my kind of progression in the mountains was actually very slow because I grew up in a place called bordeaux which is famous for wine and not for.

01:27.85
Alyssa
Um, at.

01:28.17
Jerome
Mountains at all. So um I just you know, started walking around in the mountains and this curiosity made me go to one summit and then to another then I started rock climbing and little by little I just. Always wanted to take it a step further until I moved to sham when I was ah twenty years old and then just kind of really took it a step further did the guide exam been working as a guide for the last fifteen years and I’ve just always been. A very curious person and always wanted to kind of go and discover usually the places where I had the least information and so that’s obviously brought me to the you know greater ranges and that could be.

02:26.58
Jerome
Patagonia or Alaska or Greenland or the carakorum since we’re talking about altitude today and I’ve I’ve just generally been attracted by. Climbing new routes. Not for the sense of climbing a new route just to be the first but just because I have I really like the adventurous part in Mountaine. So that’s something that’s ah, really important to me and and I feel like in mountaine we can maybe.

02:44.84
Alyssa
Are you.

03:00.16
Jerome
See kind of different categories people who are pushing more the performance to the limit and other people who are pushing the adventure and I guess I’m kind of in the middle of those because I I Also really like to do technical climbing. So maybe I’ll get.

03:05.40
Alyssa
Are.

03:18.63
Jerome
Get into that a little bit later but usually the the mountains that have been appealing to me have been steep. It’s usually what I look for.

03:28.76
Alyssa
Um, nice, no, that’s super helpful and yeah, I feel like within mountains there’s performance in terms of technical. And steepness and then there’s performance in terms of like fastest known times where the route’s probably not as technical but going for um, a speed attempt on it. So, It’s nice. We’ll bring on um someone to talk more on the kind of Fkt side of things. Um, but it’s good to have you. Talk about more of the technical side and when we’re talking about the range of altitude that you usually inhabit um for these projects. What’s kind of the range that that you have done.

04:18.14
Jerome
Um, I usually stayed just below seven thousand meters so between 6000 seven thousand meters and to say the truth. The reason is that I I just feel like above seven thousand meters I I I’m not

04:22.16
Alyssa
Um, okay.

04:24.68
Alyssa
Are.

04:35.40
Jerome
Um, good enough to climb hard technical stuff. So so it’s very few people are but there there are definitely some and and we can talk about that later, but but that’s I’ve ah climbed.

04:40.43
Alyssa
Um I think very few people are.

04:54.62
Jerome
It’s been very progressive. so I so I you know started in the pyrenees and the highest peaks there are three thousand meters and then I climbed in in the alps where you know m’bra is the highest peak 4800 and then ah slowly I got to the Karraorum and so I kind of built up little by little and I i’ve.

04:59.87
Alyssa
Are.

05:14.80
Jerome
Definitely understood that the higher you go just the more struggle you have with everything and it’s in one sense appealing because I think the mountaineers in general always look for a bigger challenge and you can find a bigger challenge as you said by going faster. Or by going steeper or by going higher. Um, that’s also you know a way to make things harder. So I really don’t enjoy altitude very much because I feel like I’m ah like I’m weak and it. But then on the other hand I’m always attracted to altitude again because it’s somewhere where you feel like you have so much margin of progression and you can you can get better. So it’s kind of a you know, 2 2 faced quain I don’t know if that expression really exists but it doesn’t french so.

06:11.14
Alyssa
Um, yeah, yeah, two sides of the coin or yeah, something along those lines. Yeah, so so touching on something you just said about how you feel weaker in altitude which.

06:17.54
Jerome
Two sides of the grade. Um, yeah.

06:29.70
Alyssa
Of course I think all of us do um to a certain extent.. How do you prepare yourself when say you’re looking at an objective in the caracorum. For example, that’s still quite high. What does that preparation look like. As you’re going into a higher altitude experience.

06:48.80
Jerome
Um, so I there’s um I guess there’s there’s various factors. Obviously the the physical preparation is really important but um, I’m sure there’s a lot of podcasts on that and today we’re talking about the mental side so I fell on this. Um. This phrase from a guy which is pretty famous which was called Wolfgang Ghoulishsh and he was one of the strong climbers of the 90 s and he said the mind is the most important muscle and I I thought it was fitting for our podcast because in the mountains and in altitude i. We often think a lot about the physical side and sometimes we tend to forget the mental side and it’s the most important muscle. It’s also the one that consumes the most oxygen um to function correctly and obviously in higher altitude. That’s what we’re lacking. So.

07:39.40
Alyssa
Foot on it and help.

07:40.20
Jerome
There’s definitely a lot of things that you can set up before your trip to help um to help deal with with the lack of oxygen up there when when we talk about so ah I would say success on a mountain I think there’s ah. Different things that we can think of we can think of getting to the summit which is kind of what you know we think about first and just waving our little flag on the summit or we can talk about getting back down safely and just doing the best that we can on the mountain. Um, and you know. There’s a variety of things that that I do ah the first one I think and this is I think a lot of people who are into sports will recognize a lot of methods here is just projecting and visualizing. So ah what I like to do when I’m preparing a trip is that. I gather tons of information beforehand and that can be just by looking at Google maps um and trying to identify kind of different places on the mountains that are going to be kind of pivot points so that could be you know, different orientations or different steepnesses. Or ridges or faces or places that are going to be present more obstacles. Um, and when I’m on Google earth or looking at photos or I’ve gathered information from other people I can also I can also kind of project myself and and sometimes even just close my eyes and and daydream about.

09:16.36
Jerome
What I’m going to do and I feel like this is a really good way to have almost lived the situation beforehand and it’s a really great way to ah manage stress and and pain. Pain because mountains are painful um and and when I do this sometimes I even like to project myself um with sensations of of cold of Hunger um of blisters in my feet etc and really try to imagine how things are going to feel and. That’s that’s one of the ways I think you can kind of manage the difficulties before stretch beforehand. Um, and so another really important point and I think this is the biggest point for me is is motivation. And ah preparing also helps me a lot in my motivation because I’m I’m kind of building up to the moment where I’m going to be on the mountain and and all the excitement and motivation also builds up and ah when when The. Challenging moment moments on the mountain arise I think it’s the Motivation. That’s the the key instrument for me and in keeping on moving forward. Ah this this famous Mountain air called AhVoTech Corticica said that mountaining was the art of suffering and I think that he it’s.

10:46.64
Alyssa
Are.

10:50.66
Jerome
Pretty spot on and it takes even more truth when you’re in in high altitude things just tend to kind of ah come together. So It’s hard to eat. You’re Hungry. You’re you know. Fuel is depleted. You’ve been going on for a long Time. You’re Tired. You’ve had poor sleep. Your body is fatigued and you’re going to encounter obstacles that you haven’t planned for deep snow hard ice etc and so in these moments knowing how to suffer. Ah through them is also really Important. So Motivation is key there like I don’t know how many times I’ve been you know close to the summit or not close to the summit doesn’t really matter but just in a really hard situation and thinking. Okay, well I really feel like I should turn around. And in in those moments I think the the the will and the has pushed me forward a lot and I think it’s hard sometimes not to mix ah motivation and obsession and.

12:00.61
Alyssa
Are.

12:03.69
Jerome
As we talk about safety maybe later on we can We can talk about obsession but ah I think most mountaineers are are have a little obsessive streak.

12:14.32
Alyssa
Oh definitely I.

12:19.67
Jerome
Yeah, and and then there’s ah sorry ah last thing last thing is is about um, ah ah you know methods for preparing is just building a whole baggage of experience and I think that’s that’s also really key just spending a lot of times in in the mountains Beforehand to know you know the. Widest variety of of situations and when you actually live these situations then you’re a lot more prepared and bad experiences are in my sense the most the most helpful in in building building up this.

12:54.56
Alyssa
They are yeah no, that was fantastic. But I think a great point that you made in talking about your progression is that you didn’t start out in the careracor and you started out in the pyrenees.

12:57.79
Jerome
This package for.

13:12.47
Alyssa
Which is kind of funny that you say it’s a small bad Rangege because I think of the fear and needs is still quite a formidable ah series of mountains I run there a couple of times and yeah, like you had a pretty you know gradual progression to get to the point where you felt comfortable. In the caracorum. It wasn’t just hey we’re going to jump right into that and I think with the accessibility in many ways that we have to the mountains now is that there is this urge to go straight through. You know the highest the hardest without following that. Um, which I’m sure as a guide you probably deal with that urge as well from clients.

13:57.10
Jerome
Yeah, absolutely I mean my my friends from the pyrenees will hate me if they hear this podcast and that I’ve said that the mountains and the purany were small. They’re they’re vast. Let’s say they’re best. Um, they’re not great.

14:11.78
Alyssa
Um, they are. They’re not as high though I can see what you mean there? Yeah yeah.

14:14.12
Jerome
It went up very high. Yeah, my my learning curve and I think this is talking about experience. It’s It’s really key my learning curve was was very slow because I didn’t have a mentor and I just kind of learned on my own and I think that it although it’s it. It was.

14:25.30
Alyssa
Are.

14:33.20
Jerome
Longer I think it was ah very strong in the sense that I’ve I’ve had the the trial and error type of learning and and it makes it that you you don’t forget things so definitely in high altitude when When. Situation arises and I would say a situation always arises because everything goes wrong in Altitude. Um, it can be. You know a small tooth pain that becomes something very very painful or just a small cough that. Gets bigger or I mean something always comes up then then this this suitcase full of experiences that you’re carrying around and that you’ve built up over time is is definitely really, really helpful and I think if you skip that part then you’re very.. There’s a big chance that you will find yourself not knowing what to do and in the face of adversity in in these problems that always arrive.

15:40.93
Alyssa
Yeah, so going off of that How has your ability to keep yourself in control and um, you know like knowing I Guess how do you know when to turn around. You were talking about motivation and kind of like hey there isn’t a strong element of this is very hard. Um, and how have you been able to navigate through your career of understanding. Oh This is just hard right now I have to push through it versus this is Dangerous. We should really turn around especially when you’re not quite as with it. Um, as your brain’s getting tired in altitude.

16:26.26
Jerome
And definitely ah so in in my climbing I’ve always ah really put a lot of importance and in the people with whom I climb with that’s always been like the the I would say the the most important thing. Um.

16:43.22
Jerome
Obviously the appeal of the mountain and and the the the sense of desire that you can have to climb a mountain is really big but I’ve found over lots of trips that that what really makes it important is the people you go with and in this sense. Um I think that for me that’s. The the number 1 factor that’s going to help me turn around at the good moment is having ah a deep understanding of of your partners and and and a lot of love and caring for them which is actually really hard in the mountain when you’re having a hard time to you know, sustain yourself. Um, being able to kind of transcend that feeling of of you know survival and care about your partners. Ah, and so I think that’s really important. Is it a deep deep understanding and knowledge of your partners and what they’re capable of and at what point. Maybe they are not going to be able to take decisions but you are going to be able to take decisions and seeing that they are um, capable of doing basic stuff or that maybe their mental abilities are starting to decline and ah.

18:02.17
Jerome
That’s that can be. You can have obviously physical signs or science that are more vocal in a discussion that someone’s becoming incoherent we we use ah what as as guides something that we call the 3 by 3 I don’t know if you’re familiar with that.

18:20.20
Alyssa
Um, no I haven’t heard of that.

18:21.10
Jerome
it’s it’s um it’s quite simple. Ah it’s it’s you have to imagine a grid with ah so there’s 3 variables. Ah the the first one is the human variable. So ah, the second one is the terrain and the third one is the weather. So. The human is going to be well is your partner feeling good is he showing signs of altitude sickness um is he over motivattivated undermotivated is his you know so there’s obviously ah, a lot of them and there’ I would say that’s the most difficult variable because it’s ah it’s it’s the human right? It’s hard to really understand everything about it and the other ones are more consistent and they’re the terrain and that’s going to be well. The the exposition is it’s southfacing east facing does it get the sun. Ah, is the rock, good etc and then the third one is going to be the weather and that’s obviously just going to be related to the weather forecast and then the the 3 other filters are um before at the start and during okay and these these.

19:19.89
Alyssa
Um.

19:36.39
Jerome
So before is going to be during the preparation when you’re at home at the start. It’s going to be at the start of the mountain and during it’s going to be kind of at the start of every pitch or while you’re climbing and you kind of cross these factors all the time. So if I’m at home and I have ah I’m looking at the weather forecast and it’s supposed to be sunny. And I’m climbing a north face and the ° seems to be you know at the right height and my partners are feeling good. Okay I get all the green lights. So I’m good to go and then at the start I can assess again and see how how all these things are going and then during the climb. It’s the same and. We do this in the guide work all the time. It’s it’s we don’t We don’t put it on paper anymore. But it’s just going on in our heads all the time and this kind of protocol like a mental exercise actually works really well and when you get really used to doing this. You kind of. Just go through it all the time. The the problem that we get a lot in the mountains and I’m sure a lot of us have felt this is is that you know you’re you’re afraid and and fears is definitely something that that’s that’s important if you’re not afraid then obviously.

20:50.64
Alyssa
Um, ah yeah.

20:50.70
Jerome
You probably going to have an accident but knowing if your decision is based on fear that’s irrational or if it’s rational or if you’re overwhelmed by fatigue and. Hypoxia and and you feel like your brain isn’t working correctly anymore then these protocols really actually help um to take decisions and to stay on the safe side and then. Something else which is very personal to each mountaineer I think is is kind of the commitment level that you’re willing to put in and that’s that’s very personal I’ve definitely changed over over the years and what i. Would have done probably twenty years ago I probably wouldn’t do now I was in September I was in Patagonia trying to climb a mountain that I’ve I’ve already done 3 attempts on and we had good weather. But. A lot of other green lights weren’t weren’t there and for those who know Patagonia it’s very rare to get a week ah of good weather. So obviously your motivation is a hundred percent and ah you know i.

22:03.27
Alyssa
Are yeah.

22:16.71
Jerome
Turned around. We decided not to go and we still had four days of good weather but there were too many other factors that seemed to be you know off? So it’s it’s really hard and we were with my partners we were on the same level of of you know, commitment that we were willing to put in. And I think that sometimes the definitely altitude kind of really makes these you know already hard decisions even harder because they’re just so blurry and if you talk to a lot of people. They will tell you that when they were in high altitude kind of communication started to get blurry with their partner like the fatigue kicks in so hard and that you’re just in survival mode and you’re not communicating really well anymore and that’s when I think like. Really profound friendship with ah with your climbing partners is is really important to be able to just you know say things.

23:20.97
Alyssa
Absolutely how often is it so in a situation where probably you should turn around is that coming from. Your assessment may be of your partner who needs to turn around versus assessment of yourself.

23:41.88
Jerome
Um, well, um, that’s that’s that’s definitely tough. Ah because yeah, we always invest a lot of time and energy in these projects. Ah in terms of training in terms of money in terms of of time and in. Just because we dream about it so much and and the passion is is really strong so being on the mountain and when your partner looks at you and says I don’t I don’t feel it I I think we should turn around and you personally feel that you could keep going.

24:02.87
Alyssa
Um, yeah.

24:18.35
Jerome
It’s it’s difficult. It’s hard and um, it’s It’s definitely happened various times to me and I think I’ve I’ve always respected the decision to turn around I’m a very optimist person by nature. So I kind of ah.

24:18.55
Alyssa
Um, yeah.

24:37.25
Jerome
Always see the the good side which is in one way good because it kind of pushes The team forward and I have that tendency to you know, kind of push push my partners ah and on the other hand. It’s bad because sometimes you you you have? Ah. Kind of blindfold on and and you refuse to see what’s obvious to some other people and I know that most of my partners have a very pessimistic view of the mountains and so we kind of balance each other off which is really important I think if I was to climb with the.

25:10.11
Alyssa
Um, ah.

25:14.70
Jerome
Kind of a double of myself would be a terrible idea.

25:17.65
Alyssa
Yeah, no, that’s a really good point I would actually say I probably fall more that I have not done even close to what you’ve done but I tend to fall forward to the optimism side and a lot of my partners are very pessimistic which works out. Well, how do you think?

25:33.28
Jerome
Ah, yeah, it’s Alice.

25:37.17
Alyssa
Yeah, how do you think you found that ballads did it just kind of happen or yeah I’m curious.

25:41.77
Jerome
Um, yeah I Yeah I think I think ah I think we’re you know, attracted by people who kind of just kind of naturally balance us like I’ve climbed with a lot of people but not many of those people have become partners that I’ve I’ve. Done You know big trips with and so I I feel like you know, a lot of small details which are probably I mean this isn’t even conscious like I think it’s It’s just unconscious that you’re attracted by these partners because you feel like like they complete you.

26:20.81
Alyssa
A.

26:21.31
Jerome
And and and it’s pretty complex like on the mountain I would I would say you know climbing and and and being fit and skilled is is only a small part of actually actually getting to the summit I mean being able to dig out a vivy and. Being able to cook one one of the 2 person people is completely wasted and just ready to go to sleep and the other one says no wait. We have to eat I mean that’s definitely a quality. That’s really really important. Sure. So yeah I think I think it’s it’s the ying and the yang.

26:54.12
Alyssa
Um, and.

27:00.25
Jerome
And the balance.

27:02.23
Alyssa
Definitely I’m curious and this is a little bit off topic but because you’re a guide and a lot of our clients are being guided who are listening to this podcast. How do you assess a client? Are they able to move forward even if they’re feeling like I can’t do this.? How do you balance that out of thinking hey I know you really want this. You’re actually okay, it’s just these effects and being like no you know have to make sure they.

27:36.85
Jerome
Um, I mean that’s that’s a tough question because it’s I feel like it’s a lot of ah, just sensibility to what the other one is is feeling and enduring it definitely helps when you’ve built a.

27:38.35
Alyssa
Yeah, go for it.

27:53.21
Jerome
Lasting relationship when you’re with your client and you it’s not the first trip out someone you know, and you’ve seen many times and you have a better idea of what he’s capable of. But then on the other hand sometimes from one year to another you know life just makes it that you you know you can’t.

27:58.91
Alyssa
Um, right? um.

28:11.19
Jerome
Go out in the mountains and stay fit so I would say the 3 is our best friend at that moment like if I’m on the mountain and I know that you know time is counted and bad weather is coming or.

28:16.85
Alyssa
Um, yeah.

28:27.22
Jerome
Or it’s really cold or then I would have a tendency to be more conservative if if there’s no, um, let’s say you know signs of of bad weather or nothing that I have to Hurry. And I’ll usually keep going and take my time until I feel like the person is is is pretty wiped out I’ve ah I’ve had many times I was a younger guide when I took that decision too late and then the down the down part was really tough and long.

28:57.36
Alyssa
Are.

29:03.84
Jerome
And as ah as a guide I’ve understood over time that going hard is not what people actually want people want to take pleasure in the mountains and and it’s not something that I’ve always been. Ah.

29:23.41
Jerome
Ah, familiar with because for me being in the mountains was always a lot about having a hard time and suffering and overcoming the suffering but not everybody’s like that and so I think another thing is just talking and trying to understand what people feel and kind of their.. They’re just they’re generally the way they are if they’re someone that’s going to you know, push themselves to the over the limit or if they’re someone you know more precautious and that’s usually just talking and getting a feeling for the people.

29:59.12
Alyssa
Um, yeah, that’s such an interesting point of people I mean we train people so that they do have a good experience in the mountains you know so they’re not at the edge of their fitness climbing rainy or climbing mob block. But.

30:16.55
Alyssa
It is so funny because I think when you are talking about performance in the mountains. It’s just an acceptance that there is going to be a strong level of discomfort and probably pleasure in a very different way than most people would take yeah.

30:31.82
Jerome
Absolutely I used to think that if if I you know I I got down with my client and he wasn’t completely wasted then I you know I had failed in some way and and over the years I understood that no, that’s not the way it is.

30:36.24
Alyssa
The.

30:47.76
Alyssa
Ah.

30:51.65
Alyssa
Um, what do you think has been a source of that motivation to push the level of performance for you like what do you? What have you attributed that kind of desire to?

31:08.00
Alyssa
Experience Mountains in that way.

31:11.20
Jerome
Um I guess I really associate. Ah, you know, pushing yourself and in that sense suffering ah with with having a strong experience and coming back down and feeling like I’ve I’ve lived something that’s ah.

31:24.30
Alyssa
Um.

31:28.80
Jerome
That’s really powerful and I mean obviously there’s something inherent to mountaineering and risk ah where you know and I think everybody kind of has a different relationship to this book. But I do think that taking a risk and kind of finding the edge where the risk is something that you master and that you’re in control and not crossing the threshold but being close to that is something that that gives you know huge satisfaction for sure. Ah, and I also have a feeling that ah just pushing your physical limits. Also really ah, helps people ah bind together a lot and kind of you know, just be very. Kind and helpful to 1 another and I think I’ve ah built you know friendships that yeah I mean people I’ve been on trips with are like brothers to me now because I think we’ve lived these and I have really good friends. With whom I haven’t lived these experiences in the mountains with and they’re amazing friends and they’re really good but we’re not bonded exactly the same way. So yeah I think pushing the limits I don’t know I think it’s something yeah, almost existential. Some.

32:59.92
Jerome
So Think philosophical here that it’s probably different for everybody. But yeah I think I think um, most of my trips I’ve felt that I’ve somehow pushed it as far as I could and when I. Wasn’t able to do that then I definitely came back usually with a sense of having not accomplished as much and I don’t know if it’s a good or a bad thing. But I think a lot of people could probably relate to that.

33:34.50
Alyssa
Um, yes, it’s ah I always attribute it that um I don’t really understand what contentment means except maybe like the day after you’ve accomplished something that you’ve been. Search you like you know striving for there’s like one day where you’re happy and content and then the next day you’re back to being discontent and I’m just kind of accepted that’s going to be the state of my being for the rest of my life. Probably maybe I don’t know maybe when I hope and i.

33:59.95
Jerome
I Absolutely yeah, that’s a terrible cycle because it’s so much energy for one day right? It’s so hard. Yeah yeah.

34:06.99
Alyssa
Um, yeah, yeah, but I think some of us are just go ahead.

34:16.51
Jerome
Yeah, I mean when I when I hear about your races I I just amazed at how much energy and how how tired you must be, and I think I imagine that probably when you finish your race, and you cross the finish line. You probably never think again.

34:31.59
Alyssa
Um, and.

34:33.51
Jerome
And then the next day you’re happy and then the day after you think? Okay, what’s next right? It’s just the cycle.

34:42.31
Alyssa
It is I’ve stopped doing the never again I say I don’t have to run for a day like I’ll give myself. Ah I’m not going to move for a couple days but I know far too. Well, it will never be, never again. Um, but I think it you know it’s so similar.

34:46.13
Jerome
Ah.

34:55.57
Jerome
Um.

34:59.30
Alyssa
What you’re saying about that fine line. Um, it’s the same thing in Ultra running for many reasons is that you are kind of trying to have that whatever it means perfect race and so you’re playing that line. That entire time of like okay am I going out too hard am I holding back too much and it’s just I always say like with ultra running that fine line is maybe you stop. You have to stop the race. Maybe you have to drop out whereas for you and this is part of the reason I’ve always. I struggled with finding my place in mountaineering alpinism because that fine line is not just oh, I didn’t finish the race. It’s you know, much more consequential and that has always been a bit intimidating. Well really intimidating.

35:45.90
Jerome
Um, that’s cool I I think ah commitment is definitely ah for me. What makes what gives most sense to to mountaine and its um. It’s really important to know what level of commitment you’re you’re ready to accept because and to have ah to have established something with your partners something that you you know you’re on the same base because when you’re on the mountain. Ah, it usually it just completely goes out of control and it’s it’s an illusion that we like to keep that. Okay, we manage our level of commitment, but the truth is that it’s rarely the case. Um I I know I was. Years ago, in Pakistan on a mountain called pumariish and when we were in base camp with my friends, we had established a million plans and looked at the mountains under 50 different angles and taken lots of photos. Because it was a south face and so the sun hit it and it had some really big snow mushrooms at the top. Um, and this was this was not something we had planned for beforehand when we we left France, we were feeling pretty comfortable but that the route was safe hard but safe.

37:13.32
Jerome
And when we arrived there, we’re being surprised but you know already our level of commitment had had you now taken a step more because we we’d done the journey. We’d done the trip. We’d spent the money we’d taken the time off we’re at the foot of mountain, so we were. We wanted to climb the mountain so we had said well we’re not going to climb if there’s mushrooms and everything but already our commitment took a step step higher and we decided to climb the mountain but to find the least dangerous way to climb it and so we started climbing and we got to 2 wo-thirds up and obviously at that point we’re starting to feel very tired. We’re around you know 312500 meters and we arrived to an ah kind of a critical turning point where we understood the route that we wanted to do.

38:06.55
Jerome
Exit to the summit was not doable because the conditions were too poor and the only exit way to the summit was actually to climb you know some quite quite a while under a really big snow mushroom and we had all 3 said that we would not do that.

38:25.24
Alyssa
Um, a.

38:26.22
Jerome
And we all 3 changed I mean changed our minds. So and and we we climbed those pitches and and it was fine. Nothing happened but what I want to say is that it’s really difficult to kind of ah.

38:29.46
Alyssa
Um.

38:42.59
Jerome
Establish a level of commitment that you’re okay with and to follow it through as kind of you know the stomach exp closer and you understand that this dream of yours is something that can come true. It’s just something that kind of slips away.

38:45.40
Alyssa
Are.

39:00.94
Jerome
The control of it. So yeah.

39:04.64
Alyssa
That’s a great. That’s a great story to lean on I’m curious. Has there ever though. Been a point where you had that conversation. You established. Okay, this is what we’re going to do, and we got to the point. Yes, like even though of course the summit is right here or whatever that success is you went? No, we said we were going to do this and we’re going to turn around has that also been true. Okay, yeah, I mean I figured but.

39:30.79
Jerome
Um, absolutely yeah, yeah, it has I turned around, and I think this happens to you know, few people who decide to climb Cerro Torre there’s ah, a very famous route called the Ragney route which is you know the story route and climbs a lot of. Really big mushrooms and we got to the foot of the last mushroom which was thirty meters from the summit, so you know you’ve walked four days out of El Child dead climbed a lot and you’re thirty meters from the summit and it was really hot, and the wind was picking up and.

39:55.33
Alyssa
Now.

40:08.76
Jerome
And things felt really off, and we turned around. We knew that that pitch would be very demanding. We had to dig the tunnel. It was going to take you know four or five hours ah so we turned around thirty meters from the summit that was hard really hard turning around but in the end I mean.

40:26.33
Alyssa
Um, but.

40:28.64
Jerome
I’m still here to try it again next time. So yeah, no regrets.

40:30.41
Alyssa
Yeah, and what was the feeling? Okay, yeah, it’s going to say what was the feeling coming down it like obviously disappointed but pretty firm and that.

40:38.87
Jerome
Um, very disappointed. But you know when we get to down and you know have a drink and some food and some laughs and call the people you love at home and talk with them, and I guess disappointed ah coming down. But probably also a little bit proud to be able to take those decisions. Um, and you know it’s said that mountaineering was hard, right? So, this is something really hard. She could take that decision. So yeah, that so I think I. Definitely take some pride in turning around sometimes for sure and I want to say usually we talk a lot about our successes and that’s something that I’m in today’s world is what’s very emphasized and people don’t tend to.

41:18.17
Alyssa
Um, nice.

41:34.38
Jerome
Talk so much about failures and you learn more about failures than you do about successes that’s for sure their experience. This is that you don’t forget, and I have another story on Cerro Torre and this time I did turn around.

41:44.33
Alyssa
Um, oh yeah.

41:53.40
Jerome
And I broke 2 vertebras my hip and almost died and had to have 50 people come and get me for Mel Jump den and that’s because I wasn’t able to see the signs that were obvious not to me at that moment because I was. Quite obsessive with climbing that mountain. Um, from the east face. So, the rocky face and the signs were there I should have turned around but I didn’t and so yeah, close call. But I learned a lot.

42:23.56
Alyssa
Um, well I’m glad yeah, I’m glad that you’re all, right? but I am curious What yeah, how do you differentiate motivation from obsession?

42:40.83
Alyssa
How are you now able to separate the 2

42:43.40
Jerome
Um, well I think obsession is when you refuse to see the signs and ah and that you still keep on just you know going headfirst although ah. You know there’s a lot of science that you should acknowledge that should tell you that it’s too much and it’s when you’re in this state of obsession I think it’s really difficult to realize it. That’s when it’s important for friends to be there to be able to tell you Hey man. Think you know this is going a bit too far. Ah and it’s I mean I’ve definitely been ah, obsessed very various times with climbing a mountain. Ah, and I think with age it’s a little bit easier to kind of. Take a step back and say well wait a second here is this is this really so important like is this is climbing this mountain going to what’s it going to change is it is it is it really going to you know change anything than just you being happy about having climbed the mountain. No. So. Is the value that you’re going to gain from climbing that mountain important enough that it’s going to you know for this this to sacrifice and the risks that you’re going to take and it’s definitely easier today. But yeah, when I was younger it was, I think it was really hard and motivation and obsession. They tend they.

44:17.18
Jerome
Tend to really mingle together and I think motivation can transform into obsession over time like having had many failures on a mountain and keeping on going back that can I think that’s definitely could be a signed obsession.

44:23.56
Alyssa
Are.

44:36.70
Alyssa
Um, yeah, I think there are yeah yes and sometimes the lesson that perhaps we need to learn is not the one-off standing at the top of it. It’s the journey of.

44:36.88
Jerome
There’s a lot of mountains this sometimes it’s good to change.

44:52.95
Jerome
Um, absolutely as a journey.

44:54.29
Alyssa
Yeah, yeah, now I’ve had that conversation with yeah, I’ve had that conversation with clients where they’re like I’ve had this mountain in my head is the pinnacle of you know, changing my life and getting on fitness. Track and improving my life in so many ways and I have said to them before then that mountain did exactly what it needed to do whether or not you sit on the top of it. Yeah.

45:21.60
Jerome
Um, sure. Yeah, the path is huge, and you know just ah, you know making new friends and creating new bonds with people and training and getting fit and projecting and. I think I have probably the most fun time in in the sense that we’ve said that climbing the mountain was kind of a mix of fun and suffering the funniest time for me is packing my bags and thinking about climbing the mountain like I think that’s where I get the. Best experience because I’m in my head I’m climbing it but I’m not cold I’m not hungry I’m not suffering I can just open the fridge and take something to eat. So yeah, maybe I’ll maybe a couple years I’ll just end up preparing for climbing packing bags and then just you know.

46:02.90
Alyssa
Are.

46:13.60
Alyssa
Um.

46:15.43
Jerome
I Mean next to my house.

46:16.49
Alyssa
Um, your heart will just be like he’s packing again. He’s not going anywhere but he’s still backing. Ah maybe that’s the evolution. Um, well I’m curious.

46:22.16
Jerome
Um, keeps unpacking. Yeah.

46:33.61
Alyssa
Kind of this has been amazing and really glad to get the chance to talk with you about this? Um I guess what’s you’ve named you said a couple of stories but are there any other or 1 specific memorable moment where things went really right? or perhaps. Not quite where you were expecting I mean they always kind of go not what we’re expecting that happened at a higher altitude situation.

47:00.68
Jerome
Um, yeah, definitely I think I think my first experience at high altitude was really a great one and this this also happened in the Karakorum range and. So, we usually climb mountains when we climb alpine style. It’s pretty classic to be 2 or 3 and in this case, we went to a mountain called k thirteen which was really special because we’re the first people to get a permit us to climb that mountain in 20 years so the people the locals there hadn’t seen. Any tourist in 20 years it was it was really crazy to be there, and the weather was horrible, but we didn’t really listen to the you know 3 by 3 like I said we should, and we still went to climb the mountain and it was ah it was really tough because. It would be like maybe Tenish hours of okay weather and then it would show a lot and we were climbing this really big ice streak which would just become an ah really big avalanche funnel so we would kind of strategize to set up camps on the on the side of the.

48:12.97
Jerome
Ice streak where we could to be safe. Let the storms pass and climb again which is really not a sustainable strategy if you’re looking at ah a long career in mountaineering. So ah so we eventually we made it to. The slopes right? below the summit and again this was my first time in high altitude and this was six thousand four hundred meters at this point and we had done all the technical part and now it was just a big snow slope and it was. Bullet hard ice with powder on it that would just slide from other under your feet and this was very humbling for me because I really understood that that was my weakest point and ah and it was really you know, kind of the group that that made us get to the summit that day. Just.

48:52.55
Alyssa
Um.

49:09.28
Jerome
Relying on 1 one on each other and the funny story with this is that we were pretty sure that we were doing the first descent of the summit and we got to twenty meters of the summit and my friend ah which was destroyed at this point just kind of. Trudging on by you know pure motivation looks up and says hey is that a fixed rope that I see on that rock and so after all this you know all this hardship and you know the avalanches and did all the suffering and stuff and it actually made.

49:35.52
Alyssa
Um, from a.

49:46.59
Jerome
Summit even better because we had like a story to go with it. It wasn’t like usual when you’re just like oh cool I did the first sun standing on the summit. It was like well who the mystery who set up this rope because obviously we’d done our research before, we went there.

50:03.69
Alyssa
Um, right? um.

50:03.74
Jerome
It was at the end of the story. It’s pretty cool because we actually understood that it was ah a Japanese team of a Japanese university maybe 40 years before who’d who climbed it from the other side and set foot on the mountain, so we got in contact with them and yeah is great.

50:17.97
Alyssa
Um, how cool are.

50:21.57
Jerome
And yeah, I think that was my first kind of summit and altitude and it will stay a really cool memory because of ah because of the group of people. Um, and these partners stayed like really close friends. And because of just the story of it and how improbable it was to make the summit on that day.

50:46.82
Alyssa
Um, oh that’s a great I Love There’s a rope up there. What the heck oh, that’s awesome. So, what do you see? I mean we’re seeing an increasing amount of.

50:50.56
Jerome
Yeah, as what is yeah so.

51:02.16
Alyssa
Efforts on Everest on these high mountains from kind of the speed side. What do you see on the performance of technical climbing? Um, Alpinism What? What do you think the future will be? On that.

51:22.33
Jerome
Um I think Steve was definitely kind of 1 of the first to um, present mountaineering as ah as a real sport where you would train and that I think has made a huge difference. And I think it’s actually taken a long time to kind of catch and for people to understand the value of being just very fit in the higher mountains. But I think now it is catching on and in the. Space where I live here and we also, I know that we have an ah very gifted climber who is training like you know, an Olympian for climbing big mountains and I think that’s definitely he’s on the way to you know.

52:03.47
Alyssa
Um.

52:09.75
Jerome
A very successful career in Mountains and I definitely think that’s the future and that’s something that’s changing a lot in mentalities and ways to getting to prepare and to get ready for climbing big mountains and it. Parallel to that because people are getting fitter and going faster and more technical it’s allowing to envision to climb steeper mountains at very high altitude in in ah in a faster way so alpine style and. I mean a lot of these altitude big walls have been climbed with fixed ropes or in different styles a long time ago and now they’re envisioned as outline climbs because yeah, speed and fitness is starting to allow that, and I think that’s the. Biggest breakthrough is that it’s just realizing that our bodies are capable of this. Um for sure the commitment in these cases is just very high because climbing in that style at very high altitude is. I mean you’re not allowed to make any mistake really if anything goes wrong and it’s over, but I think in the in the next yeah next decade we’re definitely going to see some climes that we thought were not doable that will get done in in short times or.

53:25.59
Alyssa
Are.

53:41.81
Jerome
Really good sign.

53:43.83
Alyssa
Um, nice. That’s exciting and also yeah, great segue many ways to say that training is the foundation of being able to do these things safely and with good speed. Yeah.

53:54.59
Jerome
Absolutely. Yeah.

54:01.97
Alyssa
Awesome! Well Jerome thank you so much for coming on. This has been a great conversation and we’ll definitely have you and Johanna onto the podcast again. Um, so yeah, where.

54:11.65
Jerome
Awesome.

54:17.96
Alyssa
Well, are you are a coach for uphill, you’re taking new clients right now I’m assuming awesome. Yeah, so drum is in go ahead.

54:23.75
Jerome
Um, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, so every it’s now. No, it’s been great I’ve been I’ve been working with up athlete a year now and time it’s been really rich experience. So, it’s great.

54:37.76
Alyssa
Awesome! Well yeah, so if you want to work drum or chat with him on a phone consultation. He is available and you can tap into much of this amazing wisdom in many years of experience. Um, guiding and climbing themselves.

54:50.48
Jerome
Are.

54:55.50
Alyssa
So, thank you Jerome, I appreciate you coming on of course and you too. But bye.

54:55.71
Jerome
Um, hey thank you so much Alyssa yeah, take you take care bye. Yeah.

55:05.44
Alyssa
So, if you want to talk to Jerome, you can visit us at uphillathlete.com or write to us at coach@uphillathlete.com and thank you for listening to the Uphill Athlete Podcast you can rate review subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and it’s not just one but a community we are upper athlete.