Foot Care with Dr. Jeff Hammond

Jeff: Never let anyone put a steroid around your Achilles. If they offered to put a steroid around your Achilles, just say, great knowing ya. Goodbye. Alyssa: Hi everyone. Welcome to Uphill Athlete. I will be your host today. My name’s Alyssa Clark and I am joined by my good friend Jeff, Dr. Jeff Hammond, who is a double boarded foot and ankle medicine and surgery specialist with additional certifications for foot and ankle surgery. He has climbed Kilimanjaro. He is a father, an athlete, and most excitingly he is signed up for the Coca two 50 in 2026. Uh, and was also on the support team for one of our mutual friends. Um, and I just gotta see him work his magic on her feet throughout Cocodona. So I had to have him on today to answer a whole bunch of questions you all have sent in. So Jeff, thank you so much for being Jeff: yeah, for sure. I’m super excited. And let’s talk foot and ankle. Alyssa: Yeah. Well, to be honest, I think one of the. Best parts about you is your excitement and enthusiasm for the area of that, for us as athletes is most important. Like, we can’t do anything without our feet. And um, I think some people are maybe a little skittish about dealing with feet, so I love your enthusiasm for it. It’s awesome. Jeff: Yeah, I feel like people, it’s hilarious. They, like every person comes to my office, like I have the ugliest feet, and they’ll have like the prettiest feet in the world. Like what? Like people foot and ankle, feet have such a weird thing about it. And as athletes, I mean, any athlete really, foot and ankle is so important. Alyssa: Oh, absolutely. I think I said to you right away, I was like, ah, my feet are really ugly. Don’t worry. And you’re like, you’re fine. These are not that bad. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, I think I had someone in the other day and like, no, calluses, like basically perfect nails, like, I mean pretty feet, like basically could have put on an advertisement and they were like, I have the ugliest feet. Like, sorry, you have to touch these feet. And it’s just, yeah, it’s funny. Alyssa: Uh, well I should say also in your intro that you work a lot with athletes and you are also really expanding into the trail scene and supporting anywhere from first timers to pro athletes, um, across the board. I know you also work with soccer players, um, and kind of a whole range of athletes. So that’s something like Jeff truly specializes in the sports that we do. So yeah, it’s just really exciting to have someone psyched on that. Jeff: yeah. It’s fun. It’s like, I feel like probably 50 to 70% of my population is involved in some type of adventurous sport or sport where soccer or like hunting, trail running, running in general. Like that’s, yeah, really I love keeping athletes ha, happy and healthy and I’m really in the mindset of like, if someone’s injured, we don’t have to like shut ’em down, you know, keeping ’em going and. So love, love this world. It’s a great world to be part of. Alyssa: It is. And before I get into the questions, I should also say that Jeff operates out of Provo, Utah. He has, uh, an office that I am like begging to, like, he’s got snacks and, uh, medical pedicures and all the things. So if you are in that area or visiting or driving through, then you can visit him in his office and I’ll link his website in the show notes. Jeff: yeah. And just say hi. Yeah. We love people stopping by and just checking it out. And I also do telehealth, so if you’re somewhere in the country and just have questions, I’m happy to chat with you there too. Alyssa: Awesome. Well, Jeff, without further ado, let’s dig into this. So we have kind of a few overarching themes and then we’ll dive into the specific questions. So our first theme is footwear and gear. Uh, and what are your thoughts on drop in shoes [00:05:00] and the different support levels of trail shoes? Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. So this, I, I was looking at this question and I’m assuming we’re talking about hill to toe drop with the drop, and that’s a question I get often ’cause people, you know, you read Born to Run, you read these other books and it’s like, oh, I should go barefoot running, essentially, which is like a zero degree. And there’s, you know, strong opinions there and then there’s strong opinions. The other way, I think one interesting trend to look at is shoe gear in general. There’s a couple brands out there that went to a zero degree and now are kind of coming back from a zero degree. I think that’s something interesting to look at. Um, zero degree is totally fine or zero degree. Foot drop. The, the issue is, is when we’re little kids, our parents buy us cute little shoes, and then we wear all these fun little shoes that have a heel to toe drop in it. And because of that, our body naturally adjusts to a tighter or shorter achilles tendon. And because we have that shorter. Achilles tendon, if we then go to a zero degree shoe, we’re stretching that tendon out, even if it’s only a millimeter or two, it leads us to have potentially more injuries. Achilles tendonitis, uh, posterior tibial tendonitis or he pain plantar fasciitis. Where that, where it can come from very often. And so for people who are like, I want to go to a zero degree shoe, you need to just do it really slow. So you go, you run barefoot on some grass, a hundred yards for a week, and then you just slowly increase that or go into a shoe like that. Zero degree. And you just slowly go that way. Um, now is there benefits to one or the other? And honestly, I don’t think so. In my personal opinion, it’s just what you’re comfortable with. Um, I mean, running in a stiletto, yeah, that’s not gonna work well, but you know, whether you’re running in a four degree or four millimeter, six millimeter degree shoe to a zero, it’s not gonna make a big difference. It’s just are you prepared to run whatever distance or activity in that shoe or hike in that shoe or whatever it may be. So personally for me, like yeah, I’ll wear like an ultra zero degree around my office and at the end of the day, my Achilles will start to get sore. ’cause I’m used to a little bit more of a lift. Um, I like the wider toebox of the shoe, so that’s why I like wearing it. But I don’t, for me personally, I don’t run in that shoe. Now people love that shoe and run in it, and that’s great because they’re prepared for it. But I personally like a four to six millimeter drop. So at least for the drop portion of the question, that’s, that’s kinda my take. I don’t know. What are your thoughts, Alyssa? Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. I do love shoes. We could talk for hours Jeff: Shoes. Yes. We could start here all day. Alyssa: We could, I know this is the, this is Jeff and I can talk for hours. So this is the, the fun part. So yes, I, I mean, very similarly, I think that the biggest concern is when people try to make drastic changes. Um, and so they go, yes, I’m just gonna jump out and run a 10 miler in barefoot shoes, or zero drop. And that’s really, that abrupt change is gonna cause a lot of issues. And so I think of it as, it’s why I never really give specific shoe recommendations. I will offer, Hey, these are some ideas after I’ve asked them a few questions about how they run, what they’re doing, what they’re used to. Like, it’s kind of a questionnaire before I will start offering a few ideas, but I will never be like, it’s only this shoe. And that’s it. Um, so yeah, go ahead. Jeff: No. Yeah, I agree. And I think for me, ’cause as a podiatrist, people are always like, what’s the best shoe? What’s the best shoe? And I have like things that I like about shoes, but there’s no brand that I’m like, this is the shoe that’s gonna change your world. And shoe companies want you to feel like their shoe is the, the cure-all right? Um, so in our office it was really cool. We actually have a foot scanner that will actually measure your foot and tell you what shoe brand you fit best into, which is really cool. Um, but even then, I always tell people you have to go to a good store and try them on. You have to go or find a store that’s gonna let you take them and maybe have a really good return policy if you don’t like that shoe. I know like REI in general, big store that’s available, they have a really good return policy for shoes. Um, here in Utah, there’s a place called Runner’s Corner and they’ll let you return shoes. So finding that specialty run store where you’re at or somewhere, really try it out because. It’ll make a world of difference. I have patients all the time, they’ll come in and they’ll be like, ah, doc, like I’m just all also having Achilles pain. And I’m like, okay. They’re like, I ran a marathon with no problems. I did all this and now I’m having this trouble. And I go, well, have you gotten a new pair of shoes? They’re like, oh yeah, I just changed from brand A to brand B. And I say, well, let’s start just go back, back to brand A. And they come back like, oh, I’m fine. I don’t have any problems. And it really can be something as simple as that. Alyssa: Absolutely. Yeah. And the other thing is, I mean, I personally really struggle with Ultra. I have found that that is a shoe that it just causes, it’s, it’s not my shoe. And that’s okay. I mean, and I have so many clients, friends, et cetera, who swear by Ultra. And so to me it’s like I can’t, I, amazing. I’m so glad it works for them. So what works for me, you know, it’s just like nutrition. It’s just like training. Everything is personalized. And the wonderful thing is we have so many great options. Jeff: And different price points and and things like that. And like, and I think we’ll get into this a little bit more later on, but like shoes can only do so much. There are other things that you can do that will personalize things to you to help you. And that’d be like a custom orthotic or orthotic that’s then gonna give you the ability to adjust to, like, you could go into a shoe that you’re like, I’m like the shoes, the tread pattern’s really good on it. So I’m technical stuff. But you can put an orthotic in it to then give you even more stability, whereas you might not have had that. Or if you want to quicker shoe, there’s so many ways to take the shoe and make it better without having to like find the one shoe that really doesn’t exist. I feel like. Alyssa: So, I mean, let’s get into that. What are your thoughts on custom insoles and how do you use them for your athletes? Jeff: So we’re opening Pandora’s box here. I have Alyssa: know you love him. Jeff: here, so I think, and you know, and I, some people might want to turn off the podcast now and say, hear orthotics. ’cause there’s so many strong opinions in the United States, and I think that’s key in the United States against orthotics. Um, and that’s because in the United States, the training of podiatrists, orthopedics, sports medicine is often very surgery first. Um, and they, they kind of miss, I feel like the biomechanical portion of the world, um, to get better. And I feel like if we can adjust biomechanics, we can get better without surgery. And that’s kind of where I like to come from. And so orthotics outside the United States, there is amazing stuff in shoe gears. If you look at a lot of the. Increases and, and quality of stuff coming into the shoe world and things like that. It’s outside the United States because there’s a different view of it. Um, but with orthotics, so the orthotics I make personally are through a company called Podia Tech or CDUs, and they are performance enhancing orthotics. So the orthotics is very activity specific. So if you’re a trail runner, you’re a sprinter, you’re a golfer, you’re a baseball player, you’re a hunter or a hiker in the mountains, you know, each of those activities require different biomechanical functions, you know, different support in different parts of the foot. And so when we make those orthotics personally, it’s we’re putting you into your neutral and not a textbook neutral. So you’re not coming in, I’m taking some like foam mold or laser mold and sending it to a lab, or they build you a hard piece of plastic, maybe it has a little top cover on it and putting you into a textbook normal. I’m building it for that person’s functional. Neutral. And I think that’s really key. So when you start looking at orthotics out there, over the counter can be great. There’s great options. And that’s because they’re playing to a generalized neutral. Right. And that’s why I think they do so well. The nice thing with like the ones that I make is we’re getting you into neutral and we’re making it so you can go and do whatever you want without trying to correct something. And there’s like the stores out there, like the Good Feet store, they’re trying to correct you and build you into this textbook normal. And it doesn’t work. It just really doesn’t. And sorry for the Good Feet Store, I just don’t think it’s a really good option for most people. There might be a select few and that comes down the same thing with those hard plastic orthotics out there or the general orthotic you’re gonna get. And it’s hard to my colleagues and other podiatrists out there, there’s just better ways to do it. And I, and I don’t think it’s necessarily that they don’t want to do better things is I think that’s a larger issue we can get into healthcare and insurance in the United States. And I honestly, I think that’s the bigger issue. It’s not the podiatrist not knowing that it’s just they’re stuck in the system. And so for me, where I’ve kind of kicked out insurance in my office, I’m able to bring in these really cool things. And so, yeah, orthotics long question, they really can help you. They can help you extend your ability to run farther because your muscles won’t fatigue because it prevents you from allowing those muscles to overextend. It keeps ’em in their optimal position. And I think anytime we’re lifting weights or anything in our life, you know, if you go hyperextend it and try to lift, you’re gonna have a much harder time lifting. But if you’re in the proper position, you can lift heavier and your muscles can get stronger. And the same thing with an orthotic. We’re keeping at your optimal position, your muscles get stronger, you prevent injury, greater stability. They just do a lot of really good, and so I honestly think most people, not that they necessarily need an orthotic, but it will help them prevent injury and get stronger with an orthotic. Alyssa: I mean, I think it’s very similar to so many times I’ll have athletes be like, oh, I’m, um, I have muscle imbalances. Or like, one side is stronger, the or the other. Like actually our lives are generally asymmetrical. We are like, I don’t know if there’s anyone who is perfectly symmetrical. Uh, and so I think what. It sounds the like in what we kind of work on as coaches is that it’s not that you’re trying to go for perfect symmetry. You’re trying to optimize what you have and prevent injury. So it sounds like, you know, if you’re taking a general orthotic, they’re almost pushing you into that, Hey, we’re trying to be symmetrical, versus if you are functional with the orthotic, it’s like it’s optimizing what you already have and maybe supporting of Yeah, we do have a little bit of weakness that’s causing some pain, discomfort, whatever. We wanna be aware of that, but we don’t wanna overcorrect to the point that your body isn’t functioning as well as it Jeff: Yeah. And how, like, it’s really interesting. So when I make my ortho, I put a foot in a beanbag and I push it down and we, and we, um, suck it out so we can see the mold and no mold is ever identical to the left and right. Like no orthotic I make is perfect on either side, which you know, is obviously the point. And with I’ll also, when we scan feet, it’s really hilarious. I have seen one foot that was symmetrical and length and symmetrical and width. I was like, wow, I’ve never seen that. I mean, if, if any of you listening right now, put your hands together, one of your hands is gonna be a little bit bigger. Like one of your feet’s gonna be a little bit bigger, and I don’t Alyssa’s doing it right now, so see, but like my, my right hand is probably a millimeter or two longer, but is my dominant hand. I can palm my basketball with this hand. I cannot do it with this hand. Like, but you know, I’ve always used my right hand side. My left foot’s bigger, I jump off my left foot. Like, we kind of build these, you know, asymmetries in our life and our bodies just aren’t symmetrical. I mean, how our faces form, they like kind of come together in, in utero. So like, you know, it’s, Alyssa: Or, yeah, I think like maybe, I don’t know. Blake Lively and maybe a few other people like Beyonce are like symmetrical Jeff: you have these, these gorgeous people out there, right? Like, Alyssa: The rest of us are just like, well, Jeff: yeah. And then you, and then you get like. I shouldn’t go into this, but like the guy who plays, he’s from Texas, Matthew, not Matthew McConaughey, but the guy Owen Wilson. You’re like, how did he get there? Like, he is asymmetrical, but Sorry, Owen. But you know, like, Alyssa: But we love him. Jeff: him. Yeah. It’s quirky. We love it. But yeah, no, no one’s symmetrical. In fact, they almost say when people are symmetrical, they, they kind of almost give off a weird vibe because it doesn’t seem normal. Alyssa: Yeah. No, this is, no, this is great. Um, so let’s get into Achilles and tendon issues Jeff: Let’s do it. Alyssa: We’re talking about. The first question, Achilles tendonitis. What are ways that you help people to heal from Achilles tendonitis and also keep it from, um, Jeff: Coming back. Yeah. Yeah. So Achilles tendonitis is a tricky one. Um, or not tricky, but like preventing it from coming back really takes a lot of work. Um, usually Achilles tend eyes comes from a couple different things. Like, like we talked about changing of shoe gear, going to maybe a zero degree drop shoe. Usually Achilles tend eyes comes from over stretching. Very rarely is it the other way around. Or it’s starting a new activity where you’re putting more strain on the Achilles. So simple ways to treat it are to go into a shoe with a little bit of a higher heel to toe drop because taking even like a millimeter or two and giving that little bit of reprieve to that tendon will make a big difference. Um, so if you start feeling something like that coming on in your training or what you’re doing, either getting a little hill lift in that shoe or changing shoe gear or something like, that’s a simple way. So that’s a very simple preventative or it’s coming. Now if you’re in like a full blown, I have Achilles tendonitis. I want to stay active. What do I do? So shoe gear changes and then stretching. Stretching is key. I think one thing people do with stretching is they love to count to 10 or 15, and they call it a good stretch. And that is that it doesn’t work. You have to go beyond 25 seconds. The muscles themselves won’t wholly relax until about 24 to 25 seconds when the sodium and potassium channels have like fully, like relaxed. And so doing a 32nd to a minute long stretch on all these different stretches will really help. So pulling your toes up to your chest, dropping your toes off a step or up against the wall, any of that posterior chain or muscle stretching will go a long ways with Achilles tendonitis. Um, that would be like at home. Do it yourself. Now, if it starts getting to a point where you’re like, you are not getting better, things aren’t going the right way. That’s when you need to go see whether it’s sports, medicine, podiatrist, orthopedic, and see what they say. Now in my clinic, I try to keep you very active in doing things. So from my perspective, I offer PRP injections. I offer laser therapy. I offer, um, you know, custom orthotics will help a lot of times because it stabilizes it. And then, you know, going to physical therapy or something like that. Uh, never let anyone put a steroid around your Achilles. If they offered to put a steroid around your Achilles, just say, great noya, goodbye. And because a steroid injection will degrade the tendon and degrade the tissue and can cause rupture. Now if you get one there, like, if you’re like, oh no, I’ve had a steroid injection there. Am I more prone to thing? No, you’re probably fine. Um, but it’s just like we don’t want that kind of medicine in that area. Other things too is like, alter your activity. You might have to change some of your activities in your life. Like if you’re not a high performing athlete, and this is like, Hey, I played tennis my whole life. Now I’m starting to get in my Achilles tendonitis. You know, it might be, let’s take a small break. Let’s see what we can do to get you back to that activity. But maybe, you know, age does catch up and we do have to adjust how we play. You know, the serve might go from a hundred miles an hour to 90 miles an hour. Like, I’m not saying you have to stop any of your sports. I want you to keep doing everything you wanna do. If you wanna play tennis until you’re 105 years old, great. But you have to realize life does catch up with you on, at least on that aspect. But stretching, swimming, or alternating your activities for a while. Let’s say you’re, you’re running, you got Achilles tonight. Go get in the pool. Go try some of that. Try yoga. Yoga’s amazing. I think yoga’s overlooked. I think there’s always like this, like, oh, it’s this meditation. It’s not doing, it’s something. Different, but yoga is really good for the body or, or things of that nature. Um, whatever you like. But yeah, Achilles 10 ice, it’s, it’s not fun. I have a little bit going on right now. I’m trying to like, you know, wade through it myself and I need to stretch more, is honestly what I need to do. So take my own advice. Alyssa: Uh, that’s, I mean, classic all of us are like, I, I have said many times before, I’m a terrible self coach. I can’t coach myself. So, following up on that, telling the difference between a stress fracture and tendonitis, how and when should you stop or be like, huh, I really need to know, like, pay attention to this or. Yeah, get this investigated. Jeff: so with stress fractures and where they stress fractures typically show up. So this is a typical thing. So if you’re out there thinking you have a stress fracture in an atypical spot, you could, but most likely you don’t. So stress fractures, if you were to like look at your hand and make it like your foot, and you’ll get your fifth and fourth toe and kind of come back and put a quarter or a half dollar right there. Now, relate that to your foot on the fourth and fifth digits just back there. That’s typically where you’re gonna see a stress fracture. So if that’s where you’re having a lot of the pain, you’re having that issue, that’s more likely a stress fracture. Now, if this pain is more back in the hill or farther back on the foot is probably more of a tendonitis or a tendon issue. Now, could you have a fracture there? Could you have a stress fracture there? Yes. It could also be arthritis, it could be a nerve issue, it can be like a compartment syndrome. There’s so many different things. So. I’m not really answering that question, so this is how I’d answer it. Let’s say you go and you run and you get two miles in and it starts hurting again. The next day you run two miles in, starts hurting again. It’s very reproducible at a very certain distance, and you can’t get rid of it. That’s worth going and getting checked out, and more likely that’s probably a tendon or issue. If it’s something where you run and it just kind of aches the whole time you go home, it aches the whole time and it’s just this constant ache in a very specific spot. That’s where it’s more likely a fracture or an arthritic issue. Um, but yeah, if it’s something you’re concerned about, honestly go see someone. I mean, peace of mind. I give all my patients my cell phone number, which I’m probably crazy for doing, but Alyssa: are a little bit. Jeff: a little bit. But I, I like to treat my patients well. You know, 45, I have a 45 minute appointment. We can talk about whatever we want. Um, and you, and you’ll know at the end of this podcast, he talks a lot. Yeah, like peace of mind is, is really great when it comes to anything. Alyssa: It’s the number one thing when I have an athlete and I’m also coach remotely, so, you know, I can’t be there and like experience it. But if we have any question, I always just say, Hey, what are the chances we could see a PT or a doctor before? ’cause a lot of, a lot of times, which I totally get this, um, there’s this like, oh, I have this pain here. Like, can you tell me what’s wrong? And I’m like, I really can’t. A, that’s outta my scope of practice, but b also like, I don’t know. Um, and so it could be nothing. It could be something, but like I, if you have health insurance or are, you know, are able to see Jeff who, um, doesn’t, you don’t need to have insurance for. Uh, and I realize that is a privilege, but like, gosh, like if you can just get in or I also think it’s really key if you are starting out or you’re finding that you are. Struggling with a few things of just like, wow, I just feel not great. Go get an assessment too. Like give us a starting point. So even if you don’t have issues coming up, I mean, it’s great to do an assessment and then also if you do, yeah, just go if you can. You have that ability, get it checked out and you know, you’re saying like, oh, I wasn’t really answering this question that well. It’s like, because you can’t diagnose that difference from afar. Jeff: Well, and I think it’s interesting too. So in the last I, well, so there I was at, um, right before Western States, I was at the trail con out there and someone’s like, Hey, I have a friend who has this ankle issue. Could you take a look at it? So I was taking a look at this person’s ankle and he was really concerned he wasn’t able gonna be able to race the Western. And you know, I’m sitting there examining him and he had built up this fear in his head. You know, like, is this a more serious injury? Is this. I, am I gonna injure it more if I continue to run? And I was like, I was kind of examining, be like, I don’t think there’s much going on here. Basically a, maybe a mild ankle sprain because he is like, oh yeah, I’ve been running on it still and doing fine. I’m like, and it was just me telling him, you’re fine. You can run, you can do this. And he did. He finished and did great. And like I, yesterday I was on another call with another person and they were like, man, I get, I get this pain here and everything. I’m still running and doing everything, but I, I’m just worried now that they have a race, they’re worried, right? Like, they weren’t worried during training, but now the race is coming up and they’re, they’re anything that kind of psyche you out, right? And I was like, no, you’re great. There are things we can do to help with the little pain you’re having, but you’re not going to do any more damage. And sometimes you are. And so that’s why it’s worth getting checked out. But like, yeah, like I have people, I do ingrown toenails on, right? And it gets really sore, but it’s numb for six hours. So they go home, they’re happy. Doesn’t hurt. Come, you know, 10 30 at night. They’re like, oh, I’m hurting. Is this, am I all right? Am I all right? And then they, they, they worry about it for four or five hours and it’s two in the morning and they’re not asleep yet, and they’re freaking out. Whereas if they would’ve just called me, I said, oh, I said Ibuprofen, they would’ve fallen asleep. They would’ve gotten better quicker. So yeah, peace of mind goes a long ways. Alyssa: Oh, absolutely. Uh, Jeff, I keep coming up with like extra questions on top. Jeff: up with them. Alyssa: Um, so what do you, so very common runners, especially, you know, everyone, you’re tapering into your event and you get those niggles and like exactly as you’re describing, oh my gosh, this is gonna throw off my race. What is causing us to feel like that? Is it just all psychological of, or It is, are there adjustments that your body is making with that downtime that you’re not used to like with that bonus recovery where it’s like, yeah, maybe it is healing something or like things are coming up. Jeff: yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a lot of different ways to answer that question. I think one way is like, let’s say if you’ve ever been like, let’s say in school and you’re like coming up to finals and you’re just pushing yourself hard through finals, you get through finals, you get home for Christmas break, and all of a sudden you get sick or you have a big project at work, or you’re really stressed about something for a couple months and like just working really hard. You’re pushing really hard and then you’re able to relax after those events and you get sick and you’re like, wait a minute, why am I sick? And I think a lot of times the body. It allows itself to push through things. And then when we start tapering back and it’s like, oh, we’re starting to relax this, we start to notice things. And I think that’s one thing that could be happening is you’re, you’re pushing yourself really hard and now you’re tapering back and your body’s like, oh, we’re starting to take it easy. Hey, this is bothering you. Like this is what’s going on. I think that’s some of it. I definitely think psychological. I think there’s many times when you’re just, you’re psyched out. You know you’re doing a longer distance than you’ve ever done, or you’re really excited ’cause you think you could podium or you could do your PR or whatever it may be. Or it’s a big trip, you’re gonna go hike a mountain or you’re gonna go on a trek and there’s just something that’s outside of your comfort zone. I think there’s, especially in our current culture, I feel like in the world it’s like, what’s wrong? Is there something wrong with me? And then you start finding things. And then also, I feel like we get hyper aware. I have so many patients who will come in, ’cause all of a sudden their toes start hurting and they’ll be like. I have this bump on my foot. I’ve never seen that bump before. And it’s like a bump that’s obviously been there their whole life. Like, it’ll be like part of their bone and it’s, we just get hyper aware of things that are going on and then we get worried about things. So I, uh, you know, lots of answers there. So sorry for people out there wanting a [00:31:00] specific answer on that. It could be a, our body is injured and now is allowing itself to tell us. It could be you’re just psyched out or you just never noticed it and all of a sudden you’re noticing it because Jeff: hit or aware. Yeah. Alyssa: No, I think that’s the perfect answer. Uh, I actually born athletes, especially ones who I’ve kind of never tapered before. It’s their first maybe race or et cetera. I’ll be like, you’ll think everything is broken and that you have never, you’ll, you can’t run that you’re dying, et cetera. It’s 99% of the time you’re gonna be okay. Jeff: you’re gonna be fine. Alyssa: You’re gonna be fine. Jeff: made it to that point in that training and are coming down, you’re gonna be fine. In fact. Yeah. And like, so this runner, you know, I was talking to her, she was in another state, we’re just, you know, face talking and, and I was sitting there going like, she was training for a hundred miler and was running a hundred miler. And I was like, the amount of running you’ve done to this point. And, you know, it’s like the week, it’s like in a week and a half or something. And I’m like, it’s, it just becomes psychological in some ways. And, and they do have, they do have something going on, but now they’re really worried about it. And, but they’re totally fine. They can make it through the race. They can push through it and, and maybe after the race we can assess different things to help. But yeah, just you can do it. That’s what I’m telling people out there. Go for it. Like, and if you, you know, if you break a bone, bones mend, no joking. Alyssa: based off of that, we’re gonna switch into foot care for. Bigger days out. Jeff: Okay. Alyssa: How are you taking care of your feet for Cocadona 2026. I thought I loved that. This question came up, what are your kind of like go-to like, well, what so say, okay, you’re gonna stand on the start line. What is maybe on your feet or you’ve done to prepare your feet? And then what are a few things that you’re gonna have in your kit when you come in to say Whiskey Row at mile 80 and then Jeff: Chipotle Burrito and uh, some McDonald’s french fries. I am hoping Alyssa, can you make sure those are there? Um. Alyssa: I’ll be out there. Jeff: Um, so yeah, no, I think that’s a great question. I am very big into preventative, um, prevention of stuff. I already know both my second toes, they look funky. Um, I have ugly feet. Alyssa: They’re be. Jeff: and I’m gonna be putting very specific gel padding on those toes because I know that yeah, they’re not gonna hurt for the first, who knows how many miles, but eventually they’re gonna start hurting. I mean, everything’s gonna start hurting at some point, but I’m gonna prevent that. I’m gonna, as I’m training, I’m keeping track of what’s really bothering me, like what rubs weird things like that. So for at least the rubbing aspect, I’m gonna pre-tape, I’m gonna prest stick on what I know is gonna bother me because why am I gonna wait for it to start hurting before I do anything about it, when I know it’s gonna happen? And you can prevent blisters. You can prevent toenails falling off. You can prevent all these things. And it’s so annoying when you get out in the middle of a long distance, whether it’s running or trekking or whatever you’re doing, hiking, climbing, and all of a sudden there’s that little poke, poke, poke, poke a pain, and all of a sudden your focus goes away from your mental stability and static to finishing whatever you wanna do. And all you can think about is this like nagging pain, whether it’s a little toenail or whatever it may be. So my, for me it’s really foot, foot care, right? Before trimming all my nails appropriately taping up. Then for me, so on my feet I’ll have that, I’ll put friction rub cream. So they’re, um, again, I’m really big on a product, um, in a company called Sidas. They have some really great products. I’m gonna put their friction cream on socks. I mean, socks are so important. I, I just. I, I mean, Alyssa always talks about how well I took care of these feet, but honestly, it comes down to using quality products, um, that go a long way. And so for me, like it’s amazing how if you get into certain sock companies, you want to find a sock company that has a variety of socks, because that means they’re really focused on activity, specific things. So for me, if I’m going up a hill, I more climbing. I have a specific sock I like to wear for that. Whereas I’m coming down a hill, I have a sock that I like for that. So in my drop bags and stations, personally, I’m probably gonna have different styles of socks that I’m gonna be like, this is what I want to do and I’m gonna be changing my socks. Anyone who thinks they can go a long distance without changing socks, just don’t do it. Your feet are gonna sweat. Your feet are gonna be stinky. Yeah. What were you gonna say, Alyssa? Alyssa: I will say that I can get away with a hundred miles without changing my socks, and I don’t you’s like he’s gonna be so mad at me and not have terrible vistas, Jeff: Well, and that’s probably ’cause you have a really good sock or you’re just a blessed person, so Alyssa: but 200 and zero shot, zero shot, or like, a multi-day event. Jeff: yeah, and like in a hundred miler where amazing athletes like you who are finishing it in a reasonable amount of time, like, yeah, you don’t need that. Your time on feet is slower. It’s not the distance. I think that is the issue. It’s the time. So for me, where the, you know, I’m gonna be on my feet a lot longer than other people. I need that change of sock. Or if I know like there’s a water crossing, knowing that I’m gonna have a water crossing, I want a thinner sock that’s gonna wick moisture away and dry while wearing it. And there’s socks that do that. I think sometimes we think, oh, my feet are wet. They’re done for, and that’s not true. I mean, and if you do feel that way, you should have a second pair of socks to put on at some point or do that. So yeah, socks. So yeah, I can be very particular about my socks. Um, and then I’m gonna have custom inserts in my shoes with padding. I get sesamoiditis in my feet, so I’m gonna have padding underneath my OIDs, which is two little bones underneath your big toe for anyone out there. They’re the bones that everyone is when they get an x-ray go. What are those? Um, I get inflammation there, so I’m gonna pat those up. So there’s things like that and shoe gear, like I am buying shoes like crazy right now and trying different shoes, so that way. Anyone would, so I know what will be good. Um, and I’ll probably take my ankles a little bit potentially just for greater stability. We’ll see. And this, this all comes with training and that’s why training’s so important. It’s not just getting miles on your feet or climbing so many, whatever. It’s okay, I’m gonna go run and I’m gonna focus on what my toes or my heel or my ankle or my thighs or my quads or whatever you’re looking at. Or today I’m gonna try this gel or this gel or real food or whatever it may be. I know me and Liz talked about this the other day. And you gotta find out what works for you. And if you don’t do that and you’re experimenting on the trail, on the race, yeah, you’re, you’re setting yourself up for failure. Um, out there. You need to be prepared. Alyssa: You didn’t, if you’re not watching the YouTube version of this, you didn’t see that I was doing a little hand prayer emoji when Jeff said, your training is key to your success, not just because of the physical, but because you get to test everything out. I say this all the time, it’s the only way that you get some kind of taste. Jeff: yeah. Like when I did Kilimanjaro, like I trained really well physically for it. And that was not, luckily, wasn’t a strenuous over strenuous thing formula. It was difficult, but I was prepared for it. But what killed me, I didn’t try out all the like honey stinger stuff. I didn’t try all my gels. I didn’t try what food I’d want to eat. And honestly, I over carried stuff because I was trying to put too much in it. ’cause I didn’t know what I liked. Luckily I could carry it, but like, I’m like, I didn’t need half that stuff and I didn’t even want to eat that stuff. Like I wanted this like, and so I think that’s really important too, is. Really knowing how you’re gonna react in different situations and it’s, you have to push yourself to limits in training too. Go out on that hot day, go out on that cold day, go out on that rainy day, whatever it may be, and try something different. Um, I think something really funny I heard is people were trying to eat sandwiches and saunas for, to train for coco this year or something. Alyssa: Wait. I love that. Jeff: rumor. Rumor mill. That’s what I’ve heard. Alyssa: That’s brilliant. I hadn’t thought of that, but yeah, I mean, I’ve had more than one athlete. ’cause I mean, I think everyone who I coach always sees notes from me that are like, Hey, great time to test out your nutrition. Try what you’re gonna use for the race. Let me know how it goes. Uh, but it. It’s, you know, it’s altitude, it’s rain, it’s cold, it’s heat, it’s humidity versus dry heat. Like, you know, there’s so many and obviously not everyone has the luxury of being able to absolutely simulate what they’re going to be. But like, gosh, if you can get a few tests in or try to get it as close as you can, like eating a sandwich and a sauna, I love that. Um, that’s huge. Jeff: Well, and I think too, it’s like sometimes we look at it as like a costing, right? Because a lot of stuff is expensive. This is, you know, unfortunately, you know, you wish you could go say, Hey, I’m just gonna go try a bunch of pair of shoes. And you might be sitting there go like, Hey, I can maybe afford a pair of shoes once a year, or whatever it may be, or even less, or whatever it may be. And so like, you have to get creative, you know, like, and there are ways to try things out. Like, let’s say, like for me, like I’m thinking I’m gonna go try hot yoga. Now that’s obviously gonna cost money, but it’s gonna put me there. But I’m sitting here going a cheaper way would be go run at the rec center. You know how hot rec centers are in the world. Alyssa: my gosh. Jeff: Just go run around there, like, go put yourself in situations or like, go find your local YMCA or your local 10 99 a month gym. They probably have a sauna in there. Like there are ways, or go get a day pass somewhere. You know, we can, you can simulate things still affordably, but get creative. Like, I’m gonna be training for Coco Donut in a place that’s gonna be cold. Cop’s not gonna be cold, most likely. Alyssa: Well, I, I, was gonna say we don’t really Jeff: happens. You know, maybe it’ll be a snow storm this year. Like this year is crazy. I mean, it did snow this year. I mean, so, you know, we’ll see. But like, I have to be creative in how I’m gonna go about doing that. Now I’m gonna have to work with my coach really closely and see what she says and, and go from there. That’s Alyssa, by the way, for anyone out there who’s wondering. Alyssa: Yeah. You’ll be my first person for Cocodona, which will be fun. Jeff: Cool. Alyssa: The, the two 50? Yeah. I mean, I’ve done 200 milers of client or, uh, Jeff: You, you’ve done everything. Alyssa: for better or for worse, whether that was a good decision or not. We still, the jury’s out, but, Jeff: Yeah, I do stuff like that too. I’ve done a lot of stuff that I’ve done. It doesn’t mean it was smart. Alyssa: so I feel like you’ve answered kind of the best way to avoid blisters for long training days. It’s practice awareness. Just like exactly what you were describing. Also, I did wanna say, so when I finished Laredo, um, about, or at the end of June, my crew member, who’s a good friend of mine, but she’s, she’s a really good climber. She’s very much in the mountain sports, but is learning the trail running scene a bit more. And I finished and I had one blister, it was just, I sent you a picture, one blister on like my fourth toe, and that was it. And she was like, oh, so your feet just must get destroyed every race. Like you must just be in horrible pain every single race, right? I said, not at all. Like, I do not, my feet are not getting sacrificed at all. I mean, it’s been, I have literally had feet that were so infected that they, um. Were kind of on borderline rotting flesh. Like they smelled horrible. They were like black, like Oh yeah. Well, a blister that got in, it was a five day run and a blister that got so infected, it was like eating itself basically. Um, so I have been at the depths of really bad feet and I would say in the last two to three years I will come away from a hundred, a hundred plus miler with maybe one to two small blisters, um, that I don’t even know I have until I have finished the race. Like pull off my shoe and I’m like, oh, oh, okay. There’s the one. So you do not have to sacrifice your feet to be able to do these things. You can be preventative, you can Jeff: yeah, totally. Alyssa: it be a good experience. Jeff: You don’t have to come at the end of the race knowing you’re gonna lose to nails or anything. Like so many marathon runners come into my office and they’re like, oh, I’m gonna lose my toenails. Don’t worry about it. I’m like, well, how about I just make ’em so you don’t lose your toenails? And they’re like, you can do that. I’m like, yeah, or you know, we can do something to prevent that. And then they come back the week after, they’re like, my to nails feel great. And you’re like, yes. There’s so many ways, whether it’s blisters or anything, you can really do a lot of things. Now, obviously, you’re gonna get stuff. I mean, even the best, there’s always that weird thing. Whether you start breaking through your shoe differently or wearing it differently, you’re on different terrain. Like you can’t prevent everything, but you can be better prepared I think. So here’s one thing, I’m, I’m Jeff Hammond. I like long weeks, long walks on the beach. Um, so I go on long walks on the beach. I do, I love him. And I go barefoot. And my trouble is I’ll walk for like an hour and a half, one direction and my feet are killing me ’cause I’m on sand. Like, I’m like on sandpaper. And no, I didn’t prepare myself to like wear some sandals or shoes or something better. And I do it every time I go. I go to South Carolina almost once a year and I do the same walk. Alyssa: So I’m gonna watch you when you come to San Diego and be like, stop it, Jeff. Jeff: yes. Grab a pair of tennis shoes. Yeah, it’s not sexy. I’m not gonna look great on the beach, but boy, I then I’m walking back and I’m hobbling back and my feet are like raw. Because I, you know, I’m, I’m in Utah. I don’t have beaches to walk on and I don’t walk barefoot on the cement here. So, you know, and that’s like I could have prepared myself and prevented that and had a much better experience. That’s the same thing with anything we do in life in general. I mean, this could be just general life. Preparing yourself will go a long ways. And even if it’s for an experience, you don’t ever expect to happen. If that experience ever happens and you’re prepared, you’ll be able to jump in. And I think from like the medical standpoint, you know, I’ve been trained to do CPR and emergency medicine and it’s amazing how like you train, you’re like, I’m never gonna do it. I’m a foot doctor. When am I ever gonna do this? But I’ve been in situations where those things have come about and it clicks in because I prepared and I can do something. And the same thing with any race or adventure in our life, or grand, you know, travel experience. If you prepare yourself, you’ll be so much happier Alyssa: Yep. Jeff: That work. Alyssa: that on someone’s, yeah. And we’re done. Stick that on everyone’s forehead. Be prepared. Uh, okay. This should be a fast and dirty one. Should I pop blisters or just leave them alone? Jeff: Yeah, I love this question. Um, Alyssa: I’m sure you’ve never answered it. Jeff: yeah, this, I’ve never answered this question before. This is a brand new question. No, this is great. This is a great question ’cause everyone has this question. I say, so, okay, this, this has caveats and everything, but I’m all about popping blisters. Okay. Now when should you pop that blister? So if you’re in the middle of a a hundred mile race and you have 25, 50, 30, 70 miles pop dang blister. ’cause what it’s gonna do, I always kind of say like, you know when you put a new phone screen on and you get a bubble in it, and how you have to like push that bubble out to get it? Well, it’s kinda like a blister. If you have a blister there and it’s moving around, it starts lifting all the skin up around it. So your blister actually gets bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger without needs for it getting bigger. So if you can drain it so that pressure goes away and you keep the skin on tact. So that’s one thing. Always keep the skin there and then, you know, put a bandaid, put mole skin, put a protection tape, whatever over it. Then finish the race. It’ll prevent it from becoming a bigger blister. It’ll prevent it from getting worse and it’ll feel better that getting that pressure weight is gonna feel better. Now let’s say you’re at mile 99 of a hundred, or you’re on a hike and you’re coming down and you’re at your car. I say let that blister without putting pressure on it. Sit for a day, let it kind of fill up and then pop it. ’cause then you can kind of demarcate where that blister is really having issues. But I’m all about popping the blister. Keep the skin on. Eventually the skin will get hard. Take your fingernail clippers and trim it off when it gets hard or go see me. Um, don’t do bathroom surgery. Do bathroom surgery, you know, take it off. But yeah, just like, and that, that, yeah, so there you go. Pop it. I’m all about popping it. Go for it. Alyssa: Me too. Jeff: Yeah. Alyssa: Uncomfortable. Well, and also it, I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but not only is it lifting, but I always say it’s like it’s changing pressure points on other parts of your foot. Jeff: yeah Alyssa: that might cause other PA places. Jeff: Well, the other issue is too is like I have so many people who come in with plantar fasciitis and they’ve been trying to self-treat it for so long, and they’re like, well, yeah, but then my outside of my foot started to hurt. I go, well, yeah, ’cause you’re compensating. Same thing with the blister. You, let’s say you get it on your big toe, you’re gonna naturally start to turn out to the side to take pressure away from it. Now you’re putting yourself at risk for not just blisters, but broken bones, tendonitis, lot more other tripping, falling, rolling an ankle, not getting your, your crampon into the ice. If you’re ice, you know, whatever it may be, you’re all sudden gonna start changing what you’re doing and that’s bad. Alyssa: Yeah, agreed. So. I mean, you touched on this a bit with the changing the socks and also using thinner socks, but keeping things dry. When you’re doing a bunch of stream crossings, it’s pouring rain. You’re in Hawaii, it’s super humid. Um, preventing honestly like trench foot, Jeff: yeah. It’s trench foot. It’s what? Alyssa: yeah. it’s trench foot. So what are your tips for keeping our feet from going in that direction? ’cause ooh, trench foot’s rough. Jeff: Yeah. You don’t want trench foot. That’s what got a lot of soldiers in World War I like, that’s literally like kind Alyssa: Like killed them. Jeff: Yeah, like if you look at the deaths of like typhoid and trench foot in World War I, and you go to World War ii, it’s like basically absent in like World War II versus World War I now granted go to other wars and other climates, it changes. But yeah, it’s, that’s a hard question because people are like, well, I go out and one mile in and my feet are soaked, right? I’m running in the rain, or I go out and I’m in Hawaii. I haven’t been Hawaii, so I’ll let you, but I assume it’s humid. Like Florida, I’ve been to Florida and you know, like, you’re gonna be wet. You’re gonna be wet. And so that is really, you have to prepare yourself for preventing friction, I think, you know, and right gear. You need the right socks, right Shoes and things for that climate. Like if you’re gonna go to Florida and heavy leather boots, Marino wool socks, um. Yeah, that’s not gonna go well. Like you gotta be prepared for what you’re doing. Um, one shoe doesn’t fit all climates. Um, I think that’s a big thing, but prevent prevention is, you know, if you notice your feet getting to a point where they feel kind of, that pruny, I’ve been in the pool or bathtub too long, honestly, taking your shoes and socks off and letting ’em sit for 10, 15 minutes, I know that’s a waste of time if you’re in a race, but if you’re doing something endurance, letting it dry out. And then having a pair of socks that you can put on and then take, you know, and obviously if you’re doing a hundred miles and you’re changing it every 25 miles, you don’t wanna be carrying four socks unless you have drop bags and things like that. But it’s, it’s being prepared for those situations. Now, eventually you’re gonna be in a wet shoe and is [00:52:00] is gonna be what it’s gonna be. And so you have to, again, that’s where having a good fit shoe, so you’re not sloshing in it and moving around. ’cause that’s going to enhance the speed of. Breakdown of tissue and everything. And even if you have to take your socks off and ring them and take the insole out of a shoe and ring it and then put your feet back in so they’re just half as wet as they were, that goes a long way too. Um, and also with that temper control, if you go from hot to cold, hot to cold, you need, you definitely need to change stuff. ’cause that temperature variant will definitely break down your skin very quick. Alyssa: That’s really good for people who are doing like to de Jean is a huge race or anything where you’re going up in altitude. It could be really cold night or the desert where it’s super cold at night and then it’s really hot in the day or if you’re dropping elevation. So yeah. That’s great Jeff: Yeah. You, yeah, like if you can, [00:53:00] you have your sock for going up and then you have your sock for when you’re down low, if that’s your hot or cold or at night and day. Like if you can, now I understand that’s not realistic all the time, but. Doing your best and sometimes, you know, if you’re starting to get it, honestly the best thing you do to take ’em off, let things dry, put ’em back on, even if it’s just a little bit Alyssa: Two. Kind of like how do you feel about these Jeff: okay, Alyssa: baby powder? Jeff: yes. Alyssa: What do you think about people use it to dry out? I’ve seen it. To use it to dry out feet. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I like gold Bond a lot. I’m a big gold bond fan, so baby powder, I haven’t used baby powder, talcum powder people use. I’m all right with all of it. I think one thing to notice is if you put an excessive amount into something that’s moist or wet, it can kind of get pasty and can create pressure points. So be careful with that. Also, can sometimes, if it’s too slick, it can cause. Sliding [00:54:00] into the shoe. So I think some people are like, oh, and they just go like crazy and put, it’s like powdered sugar on pow, you know, powdered donuts or something, and they want to go nuts. I think less is more sometimes with that, but yeah, I’m all right with that to some extent. Alyssa: Yeah, be careful. Number two, Gore-Tex. Jeff: Yes, Alyssa: How do you feel about people? It kind of became, I feel like it’s a little bit like caffeine where they’re, I think we’re getting better, but for a while was just like we, oh, every shoe. The best shoe should be Gore-Tex.And let me tell you, I have messed my feet up using Gore-Tex shoes that reached a level of saturation that they could not dry, and my feet were stuck in a chamber of soggy sadness. So. Jeff: Yeah, I mean, Gore-Tex doesn’t breathe, and so you’re just. You’re, you’re creating a, a hot environment. It’s like, you know, watching boxers run around with a trash bag over them to lose weight before their weigh in or whatever it may be. That’s like what you’re doing with Gore-Tex. Sometimes, if it’s too much goretex now Gore-Tex being used appropriately in the right conditions, great. Like, it’s, it’s a good material. It works well, but yeah, caution to the wind with like, heavy, heavy cortex, anything that’s gonna occlude your foot. So or like trap your foot in any environment is not good, in my opinion. I mean, there, I mean, I take, that was a caveat, but like, yeah, like if you put a plastic bag over your foot, you’re gonna have sweat wey feet, and that’s kind of what you’re doing with an all like Gore-Tex shoe or something that’s not breathable. Now if you’re in the winter and you’re hiking through snow, you want something that’s a little bit more, you know, thick and solid and you are trapping a shoe, but they can still be breathable and still be a good shoe or gear allowing the protection you need. I don’t know. I don’t know if to answer this question, but Alyssa: No, I think within caution, I think that the struggle that some people have, the perception that Gore-Tex prevents any moisture and there is a point at which Gore-Tex will fail. Jeff: Yes. Alyssa: Just like, I mean, if you’re in an absolute downpour, you are getting wet. Like it’s almost impossible to stay completely dry. So I think just be being cautious with Jeff: And I think we kinda go back to what we were talking about at the beginning with shoes and, and products. It’s like there is no absolute best product. Like I can’t come on here and say Product A is the only product you should use, bar none. Like there, there’s nothing out there that’s, I think, is truly like that because every person is so different. Some people are gonna like something more than, some people are gonna like something different. And so when it comes to gear and stuff like. Again, and that’s why it’s so hard ’cause it can get expensive. So go to your thrift stores, look for that secondhand stuff. Try it out because you’re gonna find things that work really well for you and not well for you. And never rely on one thing to be the the savior of your race or adventure. Unsure. Alyssa: Definitely. Okay. Last question. In the foot care for longer days is foot pain on steep days slash I mean, to be honest, like, yeah. Those really long days, you’re like, man, my feet just kind of ache. Jeff: Yeah. Alyssa: What are ways that you help people to mitigate that a bit? Jeff: Yeah, well, I mean, any day you’re gonna be on your feet more than another day, you’re putting more stress. And like any substance in the world, you put more stress on it, you’re gonna be sore. Um, it’s supporting the foot. And so in my world, and I know we’ve talked a lot about good shoes, good things, but that’s where like my customer ortho thoughts come into a big play because now we’re supporting the foot, allowing it to function more properly. We’re less likely to get arthritis, tendonitis, you know, muscle fatigue. From it. I think other things is there’s ointments and things you can use or strategy. So like I like A-C-B-D-C-B-G cream. I think using that helps with the in inflammation helps keep, you know, the inflammation from getting too much. ’cause the problem is, is when we start to notice inflammation, we’re like, oh, we can fight through it. We can fight through it. But then it continues to get worse. When you start noticing something, you gotta start taking care of it. So like if you’re starting to get to a point, you’re like, Hey, my feet are starting to hurt. It’s all right to do, you know, an ibuprofen or Tylenol or put a anti-inflammatory cream on, whether it’s C, B, D, ointment, voltarin, gel, icy, hot Blue, um, the blue stuff I can’t, uh, bio, not Biofreeze, some, you know, there’s all those, there’s so many different things out there. Using something to help you, that works well for you, that goes a long way. Um, and then I think over training or overdoing it, knowing yourself like. There might be a day where you get out there and you’re like, today is not my day. Today is not the day. I need to push beyond this. And knowing your limitations. Now there are days you have to push yourself. ’cause in races you’re gonna push yourself and you have to understand how you’re gonna react to those situations. But knowing where to, to not get yourself injured, you know, not pushing yourself too far, I think is really important To live, to fight another day, Alyssa: Yeah. And I mean, if you have a proper training modulation, you’ve given yourself enough time to prepare for the event. Hopefully you have built into these days so that you are not jumping from say, two hours to five hours or four hours to eight hours, you know, thinking about the percentage increase in time, pretty safely. For me, I like to increment my athletes and that’s not just like up, up, up, up, up. That’s with variation. 15 to 30 minutes for that longer effort, 30 at the most. Man, I hate putting more than 30 minutes. It’s just to me, unless I have an incredibly experienced athlete who has been through the cycle multiple times, you know, et like very, very narrow window. The rest is 15 to 30 minutes. It’s Jeff: Well, and, and the problem is, is when you get beyond that little increment, and I’m, I’m bad at this, so I, I sometimes just go out and do stuff, so, but when you start doing these things, I mean, I mean, if me not signing up for Cocodona tells you that, I just jump into crazy things, doesn’t tell you a lot about me. There you go. But you, your form or technique or whatever it may be. Rapidly decreases when you get fatigued. Um, you know, whether it’s you’re playing golf, you go play, you know, 18 holes once a week, great. And then you go play four days of 18 holes, I guarantee your last 18 or last three six holes, you’re probably not gonna be as good if you don’t have that built into it. And I think what’s funny, and this is they won’t say it, but you look at your LIV golfers versus your PGA, now we’re way off topic here, but they play four days of competitive golf. They play three days of competitive golf. When they come together, the LIV players don’t always do the best. And now can I say that’s because they don’t play as much golf? No, but honestly I think it is a factor that mental fatigue of playing four straight days, a very competitive golf ’cause they’ll say, well I play golf every day. Yeah. But they go out and they’re trying different things and doing different things. And I think it’s the same with any other type of sport. If you don’t have that, if you’re not doing the incremental and you just. Start you. You just lose it and you lose your form. You lose your ability to do what you’re trying to do, and that comes with injuries. As soon as you loom form, you get injured. You get injured, that affects even more form, and you’re just on a slippery slope. Alyssa: Yeah, I mean you absolutely, you have to practice being on, like, I think about racing situations where, um, yeah, I have been, I know what it feels like to be on for 23 hours, which is a long time. Um. But you have to work into that because if you have never really practiced, you know, during your training, et cetera, of like, okay, I’m really on right now. And also, I mean, in mountaineering and the more dangerous mountain sports, that’s the difference between staying alive or not. Um, yeah, no, that’s Jeff: Yeah. The fatigue of putting your pick into the ice or whatever it may be, if you don’t do it right. You know, there’s bigger issues coming down the road and you lose that mental acuity and, and it’s not good. Alyssa: Yeah. So I think we’re gonna save the, uh, kind of like more injuries for another episode, Jeff: Sounds great. Alyssa: because there’s still a lot there about kind of getting more into like almost diagnosis and like that side of things, which I do wanna get to. Jeff: I also think too, like once people listen to stuff, it’s like, oh, what about this? What about this? What about this? And I think if we put it out there again, I bet we get some pretty fun, fun questions. Alyssa: Yeah, definitely. But I do wanna talk about, because we do have a lot of people who climb in the winter, who climb in certain conditions. We’ve talked about heat quite a bit, so I wanna touch on the cold. Um, so you’ve shown me some insane pictures of frostbite. Jeff: It’s awesome. Alyssa: pretty wild. Yeah. So I’d love to hear about, um, prevention of frostbite and also just, okay, say it starts happening. How can you protect and manage frostbite? Jeff: How to protect yourself, I think, and I think this is pretty well known as layers. You know, not one big thick sock. Multiple socks, especially mountaineering and stuff like that. Um, skiing where you’re out skiing and you can get into a ski lodge, whatever, that’s a different story. But you’re out mountaineering. You need thin layer and thick layer or, or something like that will go a long ways, um, to prevent warmth. I remember I was at a scout and we slept in snow cas, we built snow capes and everything and, and we like looked up how to build the best snow ca right? We had like this like 1950s, like how to build a snow ca and it was like in the bottom of it’s like put newspaper layers, newspaper, then put this and it had like four layers and it wasn’t anything amazing. It was thin stuff, but man, we were like in our boxers and our sleeping bags in the snow cape ’cause it was so hot. Like we were so warm in there. We didn’t have anything else but. You know, a couple feet, like a foot above our heads. And, but ’cause we layered, it was really nice and warm and we weren’t getting the cold. And the same thing with your socks, feet. That layering goes a long ways. Um, now let’s say you start feeling like you’re getting frostbite, something like that’s starting to happen. That is time to get out of the activity you’re doing. It’s, it is time to stop it unless you’re prepared to maybe lose a toe or whatever it is. You gotta get out whatever environment you are, at least for some portion to get that circulation back into whatever appendage or area that needs that blood flow. Because essentially you’re losing the blood flow. You’re not getting the warmth you need for that area and your skin will die and your risk of losing something. And so, yeah, getting into a warm environment. Now this isn’t saying like you have to go from like. Subzero to 80 degrees. In fact, that’s actually bad. It would be better to go from subzero to just above freezing. You know, just getting slightly warmer and laying your body slowly warm back up. You know, don’t go boil water and then pour it onto something. ’cause that’s, that’s, you’re, that’s not good. And you’re making a, a face. ’cause people think that, right? Alyssa: Oh. It’s like the first thing you learn in wilderness First responder training with frostbite is do not rapidly heat. You will everything up. Jeff: You’ll mess everything. It’ll be a worst decision. Yeah. It’s that slow, slow warm, you know, whether it’s changing socks change, putting our layer on doing something to just let it warm up and it should start feeling like you’ve been in a cold day and you’re starting to get on a word tub and you kind of get that like, woo, stingy burny, but like, not bad. That’s what you should start feeling. You don’t wanna feel just burned. You don’t want to be like, where you had the tub too hot and you put your toe in, you came and get your foot in. You know, you don’t want that. You want to just like this, like calming feeling with a little bit of sensation to warm up. Um, I mean, prevention is key. Once you start filling it, getting out of it. If you do have frostbite, seek medical, you know, attention quickly. That’s just the best way to go about it. Um, and just don’t rapidly heat it. Don’t think that’s gonna help. Alyssa: It is actually treated, uh, it’s like a trauma Jeff: Yes. It’s like a burn. It’s, you actually go to the burn unit. Alyssa: yeah, Jeff: Yeah, because it deglove is kind of the medical word, meaning like it, your skin will slough off, um, from whatever area it is. So yeah, you don’t want it, it’s a vascular issue. You lose blood supply, blood is life. You don’t have blood to an area. It does quickly. Alyssa: yeah. Let’s avoid it if we can. Jeff: Yeah. Well, and here’s an interesting thing. So like, as a podiatrist, I used to deal with a lot of diabetic patients who have neuropathy, so no filling. And if they would keep their heel or foot on something for, you know, 20, 25 minutes and not move it, that 20, 25 minutes, that skin is dead and they’re gonna get a wound, like it’s that quick. And so I, you know, people think, oh, hours, hours, no. Like. Now we, the people who are feeling stuff, we, even if we just move it a little bit, that’s getting rid of that area. But same thing, you know, that quick it can go bad. Same thing with like frostbite. You start getting it, it’s not okay. Well it’ll be all right in a day. Like it can change in half hour, 40 minutes really quick and rapidly. Alyssa: is it true that once an area has been frostbitten, that it is prone to frostbite again faster? Jeff: Ooh. I don’t have like a strict medical, I can theorize on it. I would say yes, because you’ve altered the blood flow to an area. So once you’ve had frostbite to that area, most li and the significant frostbite to the area where the, you’ve had some skin [01:09:00] sloughing, you’ve had some type of injury because of it, that scar tissue and everything is probably. While it has good vascular supply, but it’s poor vascular supply. Like there’s a lot of little vessels, but you’re more likely probably to get frostbite. That would be my guess. Now I can’t be the expert on that. I, you know, that would be, that’s, that’s a good question. I might actually go do a little reading today on, uh, frostbite, but my guess is you’re probably more prone to it. Alyssa: That’s always what I’ve heard is kind of like, oh my gosh, if you’ve gotten frostbite, you know, be really particularly careful with that area because the likelihood, I dunno what the percentage or any of it, um. Jeff: next podcast I’m gonna do some research and we will, I’ll give you all the information on a re frostbit in areas. Alyssa: Love it. Jeff: Well, and the thing is too, is like some people get like frostbite on their nose where they lose part of their nose and they have to do like a skin flap or something to it. You know, they’re getting more blood supply to that area after something like that. So probably not, but yeah, I don’t know. That’s a cool question. I like it. Alyssa: The kind of the last question about cold, and I’ve actually only really heard this term a few times, but treating and managing chill bains Jeff: Yeah. Alyssa: with training. So what are chill bains Jeff: So yeah, chill glands. So there, it’s, it’s similar to like Raynauds. People have Raynauds and things like that. Usually it’s associated with some other autoimmune disease, whether it’s like a lupus or something like that. Um, but essentially it’s spasm of your vessels, so your vessels spazz out, so you get less blood supply to an area. So you get cold feet painful. It’s usually very, quite painful too. I wish I had really good answers for those people. It is, it is a challenge. It’s really, it’s warmth. Um, keeping your feet warm. I know like there’s a brand out there, thermic who has, you know, Bluetooth socks where you can heat those feet and things. Alyssa: insane Jeff: Yeah, we’re amazing. Alyssa: yeah. Jeff: Like, they’re cool. Like, look into ’em. I have a discount code. We’ll post it somewhere. I think it works there. I’ll make sure it does. But like, also it’s, if you truly have an issue and you’re consistently dealing with it, honestly, think about changing where you live. Think about the climates you live in. I mean, I know that sounds drastic and that’s not possible for everyone, but those are like for drastic things. It is where you are. It’s funny with Raynods. You see it in the northern latitudes, um, and those people go south. They don’t have it anymore, and it’s because the warmth and everything and people who move from the south move north, all of a sudden they have this, this ray nod phenomenon or something like that. And so it really can be climate. Induced. And so for those people out there who are trekking like, well hey, I still want to go do this summit, this mountain or trek here, or run this race, or whatever it may be, being aware that I need to be extra cautious on keeping my feet warm, um, or knowing when to stop to allow them to get back. But that fast, that spastic, I dunno if that’s word moment like goes away and so they can get more blood flow back and get going again. So, yeah, it’s a hard thing. I’ve had a couple patients and it’s really, really hard to treat them. I will say, now this is interesting. Orthotics actually help the blood flow in your foot. So, ’cause it actually keeps the vessels open and more patent. And so like I build ski boot ones and people come back and like, my feet are so hot. ’cause they’re just like, you know, and so support of the foot is al always a good thing too. Alyssa: I think it really falls into the category that we are all bringing unique challenges to every situation, like you’ve mentioned, you have a, a few feet, uh, challenges, we’ll say I don’t have a colon. Jeff: throwing that out there. Alyssa: what might be kind of invisible too. Uh, others where it’s like, oh, they’re totally fine. They have nothing. It’s like, oh no, they’re probably coming with, you know, their kryptonite. But they have probably worked on. Jeff: Yes. Alyssa: these solutions in a lot of trial and error to be able to compete, climb, et cetera safely knowing that yes, I have this. Yes, I have that. I know I need to be more cautious for this reason. Jeff: And for everyone out there, everyone has something. I have been. Alyssa: yeah. Jeff: Uh, a church service. I’ve been at a country club, I’ve been at Disneyland, and people pull their feet out and go, you’re a foot doctor. This is, I have this wrong with me. I have this wrong with me. I have this wrong with me. I’ve not been, I’ve, you name it, I’ve been there and someone’s pulled their foot out. Like I was at like a neighborhood welcoming party and I had like a random neighbor come up to me and like pull their feet off and start showing me at this like, welcome party. Like, everyone has an issue. Whether, it’s physical, emotional, men, you know, whatever it may be, we’re all dealing with something. So don’t feel scared to go out and get help or figure out how to get through that challenge you may be dealing with, even if it seems dumb to you. Even if it’s like, I get hangnails really annoyingly, like, it’s not dumb. It affects you. It can be the smallest thing. Alyssa: And I would say too, I mean just take, use myself as an example ’cause it’s really weird. I mentioned like the whole not having a colon. I have ulcerative colitis. I had a total colectomy when I was 14. I have a J pouch made, minimize small intestine. There is another ultra runner. Who has the same thing in the US who, he’s a bit older now, but he was a very competitive ultrarunner, um, in his time and has learned a lot and I have learned from it. Like, you know, it’s crazy how you think. I author no one else who’s dealing with this. There’s no way. Yes, you are unique. Everyone is, but there’s probably someone who can give you some guidance about your situation. It’s not gonna be exactly the same, but they’re probably gonna point you in a lot of the right directions. Jeff: yeah. I mean, yeah, search out like if you hear someone with that, go ask ’em. What have you done or what has not worked like, yeah, really good, good advice. I like that. Alyssa: So to close up, and we will come back on with talking more about the injury side of thing. was your favorite memory from climbing Kilimanjaro? Jeff: Ooh. Alyssa: And what was the first thing you wanted to eat when you were kind of like back down and settled. Jeff: Well, my favorite thing about Kilimanjaro, it was the, and I can’t say this word really well, comradery of everybody who was going up together in my group. I had people who were not probably as prepared as they may should been to people who are really prepared. But man, we bonded and loved each other, and I didn’t know any of these people. They’re from the uk, they’re from Florida, they’re from. Two groups from the uk, like from all over the world. And we were, it was really fun doing a hard thing together. And I really, really loved that. And I think that’s why I love the Cocadona experience so much. It was helping someone accomplish something really cool. Um, and so that’s, that’s something I really like is seeing people succeed, especially in athletes I take care of. It’s just so cool. And so that was really like getting to the top of the mountain and us sitting down. ’cause after we got to the top, we like booked it down. Like we were basically off the mountain after spending five days going up and we were all sitting around eating our spaghetti and our cake. They made us like super nice group we were in. And, and we were like, everyone was like, would you do that again? Would you do that again? And I, I’m crazy. I was like, yeah, let’s go up tonight. Like, I was like, ready. But you know, they were all like, it, it was just fun and sharing stories and, and I really liked that portion. I mean, I was in Tanzania so there wasn’t anything that I could get down to the bottom of the mountain and eat right away that I truly wanted to. But Diet Coke, I mean, I always want Diet Coke. Uh, uh, I almost brought a can so I could drink it on top of the summit, but I was vetoed by my wife, so, but yeah, that’s usually it. Alyssa: Well, we’ll have plenty of it for you at Coca. I might make you drink the full fat Jeff: Well, I’ll drink, I’ll drink the full stuff. Alyssa: Okay. I’m telling you, it’s gold. You can have diet afterwards. Jeff: Oh yeah. I’ll have it after. Yeah, I’ll take, I’ll take the real stuff. I get it. Alyssa: Awesome. Well, Jeff, thank you so much for Jeff: Yeah, for sure. Alyssa: part one of this and then yeah, where can people find you? Reach out. Jeff: So Hammondfootandankle.com. Um, you can set up a telehealth visit. If you’re not in the state of Utah, you can find me in Provo, Utah. I’m on TikTok, I’m on Instagram, I’m on YouTube. Um, LinkedIn. Just reach out, message me. I’m happy to, you know, reach out and talk to you. I assume they’ll put some links or things somewhere that they can Alyssa: I’m in charge of that. I will. Jeff: yeah. So yeah, please, I like reach out to me. I love talking to people and, and if you’re ever at a race and I’m gonna be at the race, come reach out and say hi to me. So, yeah. Alyssa: approachable for sure. Awesome. Well, Jeff, thank you so much and thank you for listening to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. If you can rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, that helps us bring more amazing guests and information to athletes and help them be their best, so it’s not just one, but a community. We are uphill athlete. Steve: One of the most common questions I get is, how should I get started with training? Well, they say the first step is the hardest, so let’s make that easy. are offering free four week samples of our most popular training plans for mountaineering, trail, running, climbing, and more. 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