[Michael J.]

Michael J. on July 18, 2020 at 12:31 am · in reply to: AeT Test, discrepancy RPE/Breathing/Lactate #43684

I think I owe you an update. Five weeks after restarting my training, I am improving slowly but steadily. My running pace at a HR of 132bpm (top of zone 1, where I still do my MAF tests at) went from 6:58 min/km (11:12 min/mile) to 6:13 (10:00 min/mile) and my average power on the bike went at the same HR went from 181 watts to 199 watts (the numbers are the average of about 3 runs and 3 bike rides per week). I now seem to be moving in the right direction at last!

The things I changed about my training were:
– less frequent running, only about 3 runs per week, and I substitute long, steep hikes in Z1 for running when I have the time for it, sometimes running the less steep downhill parts to keep HR up a bit and toughen up the legs
– less frequency on the bike, only about 3 rides per week, but made these rides longer, at least 90min up to 2.5 hours each session
– no double days, either just bike or just run on any specific day
– at least 1 full rest day per week and an additional 2 unscheduled rest days in 5 weeks when I felt sore, tired and sluggish
– a small amount of zone 2 (HR <142bpm) training, about 40-60min in the middle of a Z1 ride on the bike once a week and only about 20min in the middle of a Z1 run once a week
– do my Z1 training even easier, especially on the bike, where I keep my HR about 5-10 beats under the top of Z1 most of the time
– 2 short strength sessions per week, only about 20-30min each, go easy on the leg exercises

I still look at my training as “transition”, but looking back over the last month, I am very happy with the progress I made. I will keep at it and very slowly increase overall volume and especially Z2 volume as tolerated, without it impacting the subsequent training sessions. I plan to do some lactate testing in about another 4-5 weeks from now if my progress continues.

[Michael J.]

Michael J. on June 20, 2020 at 12:10 pm · in reply to: AeT Test, discrepancy RPE/Breathing/Lactate #42922

I did measure lactate levels on some longer bike rides, usually may lactate levels stay the sam or even go down a bit regardless of HR up/Power constant or HR constant/Power down, as long as the chosen intensity level is sufficiently low. After about 2.5 hours, lactate and RPE did rise somewhat (0.2-0.3mmol), which at the time was probably the point where my slow twitch fibers were exhausted and some faster twitch fibers had to be cycled in to keep the required power output the same. At least that’s what I was thinking.

[Michael J.]

Michael J. on June 18, 2020 at 12:38 pm · in reply to: AeT Test, discrepancy RPE/Breathing/Lactate #42886

Hi Patrick

I instinctively tend to work out right around that lowest point on the lactate curve, give or take a few bpm. I can hold that pace/power for several hours (on the bike at least) with minimal HR drift and I am usually recovered within 24 hours. Since my progress has stagnated for some time on the bike, I suspected that maybe this intensity is a little bit too low (lactate between 0.9 an 1.1 usually) so I tried to train more often near 2mmol, but I probably did too much too soon and was digging a hole for myself.

I bought the Lactate Pro 2 several years ago online, but can’t remember where at the moment. It works very well for me, especially if you take all the precautions listed in the article on this page. The test strips are quite expensive however.

I used it very regularly in the beginning, but my heart rate zones tended to be very stable over time, so I used it less and less. I never experienced a significant rise in “AeT” heart rate, which was another point that made me rethink my base training intensity. The point right before the first rise in blood lactate seems to correspond nicely to the top of Z1, as it lies pretty much exactly 10% below the 2mmol point.

[Michael J.]

Michael J. on June 17, 2020 at 12:49 pm · in reply to: AeT Test, discrepancy RPE/Breathing/Lactate #42875

Hi Patrick

I have found the same the same manual from Swiss Olympics sometime ago (I’m Swiss). I even read pretty much every open access study I could find on FatMax, AeT etc. But reading all this stuff just added to my confusion in the end since there is so much conflicting information in the studies, especially concerning measurements/calculations of FatMax/AeT/AnT. BTW Beat Knechtle, another Swiss, has done a lot of studies with different subjects of all ages, abilities and metabolic capacities.

Somehow, after reading all I could find on the subject, I came back to where I started from, TFTNA and TUA. These books restarted my desire to go out and run/hike in the mountains and there are many success stories out there – and no magic pill endorsement at all, just the simple message that intelligent and consistent work and dedication will pay off. So I started this thread to stop oberthinkining the whole thing and start doing the work…

@Scott Semple
I’m afraid I couldn’t find the Swiss Olympic manuals in English, but I’m quite sure they exist somewhere on the web.

https://www.swissolympic.ch/ueber-swiss-olympic/partner_labelinhaber/medizinische-institutionen.html?tabId=214fd896-c1c9-42ea-92a0-cc9453a24fd4

Some of that information should be comprehensible for non german speakers, too, especially the sample test results (“Laktatstufentest Beispielauswertung).

[Michael J.]

Michael J. on June 15, 2020 at 1:40 pm · in reply to: AeT Test, discrepancy RPE/Breathing/Lactate #42818

Big thank you for both of you, I really appreciate your responses. I reread the chapters on Transition and Base Phase training and now think, I probably did too much too soon, even if my zines are set properly. I will restart my plan with a proper transition phase for the next 6-8 weeks according to your suggestions and the example training weeks from the book. My goal for this phase is to slowly increase my tolerance for weekly time in Z2, starting, as suggested, with two relatively short Z2 workouts per week.

Thank you again, I’ll keep you updated.

[Michael J.]

Michael J. on June 13, 2020 at 11:47 am · in reply to: AeT Test, discrepancy RPE/Breathing/Lactate #42777

Thank you for your response. I know it seems unusual that I get about the same results for running and cycling, but I think this is just because I haven’t run regularly the last 4 years but have cycled about 350 hours per year, so I should be much better trained in cycling. I would expect the relationship between cycling and running HR to change somewhat as I get fitter. Max HR for Bike (185) and Run (188) are still very similar, so I wouldn’t expect too much of a difference in training zones anyhow.

So do you think I should go strictly by lactate results and try to train as often as possible in Z2 near AeT/2mmol (which certainly won’t be every day) and just do the rest of my workouts in Z1 every week? Maybe I could start with just a few minutes Z2 in the middle of 2-3 Z1 workouts a week and get more durable with time, so HR drift and muscular fatigue would become less of a problem?