I don’t think anybody has mentioned this yet, but 10mi is probably a bit long for an AnT test unless you’re terribly fast. The book answer, iirc, is 30min-45min depending on fitness, with fitter athletes closer to 45min and perhaps the very fittest needing 60min. Friel talks about a 30min time trial with a fast finish, for everyone.
dcgm
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ParticipantParticipant
I don’t think it’s Uphill Athlete orthodoxy, but damn if it didn’t work for me.
A 2hr run is probably a bigger training stimulus than 2 1-hr runs (on account of glycogen depletion), but in my experience it’s also a bigger recovery hit.
ParticipantThat’s an interesting point. I was probably getting at least half of my weekly aerobic training volume (weekly long effort, 1-2 shorter midweek sessions) from hill laps on trails during the training cycle I described. Something something running economy/fitness/fatigue….
ParticipantOP, yeah, I’ve noticed pretty much the same thing and don’t have a good explanation for it. I was keeping pretty good track of the usual environmental variables and not really getting faster at the same HR–if anything, I was getting slower and RPEs were dropping, it felt like I was having to shuffle to stay on Z2 whereas at the beginning of the cycle I was running at a not-hard-but-not-easy pace, and of course I was going measurably slower as well. My first hr drift test yielded an AeT HR of 150 bpm at right under 10:00/mile and I was doing training runs at like 145 bpm and 11:30-12:00 mile.
However, I tried an HR drift test targeting pace (9:15ish/mi), RPE (see above) and breathing (deep but slow and nasal) and actually saw negative drift at an average HR of 165, getting faster at the same HR over an hour effort. My pace:hr did not improve, but my sustainable pace did (for the same formalization of sustainability.). I also had pretty robust AnT numbers at the time, and I was confident that I hadn’t accidentally found my AnT (I mean, breathing, RPE, etc. all pointed in the direction of a valid AeT result, but it’s nice to have the AnT results to validate that as well.). I spent the rest of the cycle training off 165 bpm as AeT HR, and all in all it was reasonably succesful.
I don’t think I’ve heard of this happening to anyone else, and I don’t really have any serious theories for why it could have happened (too much weightlifting in my formative years –> little or no eccentric left ventricular hypertrophy?? the answer will shock you!), but it seems pertinent enough to be worth mentioning. Scott Johnston told me that pace and rpe dropping at a given HR is a sign of undertraining–I don’t believe this was my problem, but maybe if running is only a small part of a guy’s aerobic training volume he could undertrain running specifically while still doing quite a lot. But I don’t know if that even applies to you. Conversely, pace dropping and RPE increasing at a given HR is probably a sign of overtraining, but you’re better equipped than I am to evaluate whether that’s a reasonable possibility for you.
ParticipantI may have gotten spam filtered for links, but I’m aware of at least one study finding quite a bit better improvement in loaded march performance from overweight under-distance intervals than from over-distance steady state. Visser et al 2005, can’t find a full text (it may have just been a presentation) but if you look for “mike prevost ruck training” you’ll find a popular article with some discussion and one of Visser’s figures.
This is not definitive in and of itself, of course, but I think it’s at least reasonable to go either way.
Participantdcgm on February 7, 2022 at 6:29 am · in reply to: Collagen for articular cartilage – bogus, or something to it? #63039I don’t have an exact answer to your question and I certainly don’t have literature (I’ve seen some of the stuff from Keith Baar’s lab but I think he’s mostly interested in tendons, not cartilage.).
Having said that, supplementing collagen has worked really well for me, outright eliminating a good deal of joint pain and also seeming to help with sleep quality. I use Great Lakes Gelatin unflavored bovine–the green cans in the supplement aisle of fancy grocery stores, though you get a better price ordering the 8lb bag from the site–variously mixed with coffee (doesn’t really change the flavor), whey protein, or emergen-c. It was not a subtle effect. I noticed pretty significant improvements in pain and sleep after 1-2 days of dosing as recommended, 2 tbsp 2x/day. I wouldn’t tell a guy to throw money at it for months if he didn’t notice anything, but I might suggest going through a single can and seeing what happens, or just eating a big bowl of pho with extra tendon every day for a few weeks if you want to get down like that.
Participant“The weird thing is that the hike in HR is much more noticeable when out running trails.”
Allergies? You notice anything funny when you just go for a walk in the area?
What about something stupid like a change in surface (if it got muddy/icy/slick in November) or temperature?
(Obviously if you’re not used to the heat you’ll see lower pa:HR, and maybe you’re in the southern hemisphere or something. I could swear I’ve also noticed depressed pa:HR when the combination of weather and clothing leaves me _really_ cold. I have no explanation for this and I don’t think I’ve heard it from anyone else, but I suppose there’s a reason the fastest marathons are run at 50 Fahrenheit in Berlin and not -10 Fahrenheit in Svalbard.).
ParticipantMy experience hiking up 25-35% grade hills with 35-65lb loads, having trained mostly with flat running and a little bit of gym-based ME, was that it sucked out loud for the first three or four sessions but I started PRing after that. So there’s definitely a “conversion” period, but there does seem to be decent carryover if you don’t neglect the ME work and have adequate max strength.
Participantdcgm on January 4, 2022 at 12:57 pm · in reply to: Pa:HR as a “check” on regular training runs? #61557Hey, thanks, this looks useful and Runalyze seems pretty slick–better than free TrainingPeaks, I think. When you talk about “trimming” the workouts, how are you doing this? I’ve looked for a minute and can’t find anything except something in Garmin Connect that I don’t think is reversible.
Thanks!
Participantdcgm on January 2, 2022 at 8:21 am · in reply to: 10 weeks into training my AeT is going down and I’m getting slower? #61400Edit window closed, but now I think about it, I wonder if instrumentation could be an issue on the pace/distance side as well as the HR side (Suunto Ambit3 for HR drift test, Fenix 6x currently.). Well, a new HR drift test with the current watch and more importantly on an actual track should solve this.
Participantdcgm on January 2, 2022 at 8:11 am · in reply to: 10 weeks into training my AeT is going down and I’m getting slower? #61399Update: deload week, half the volume of last couple weeks. Feeling springy, stairs feel good, aches and pains are melting away. Been training pretty much exclusively in Z1/Z2, no planned excursions above Z2 but a few accidental, and never very far above. Max str a couple times a week, no ME.
Had to walk to keep today’s run in Z1 (<135bpm); eventually said screw it and jogged slow. Last mile in 12:06 at average HR around 145-150. HR drift test in similar conditions about a month ago yielded a 9:54 pace at 147 HR. What’s going on?
“Residual fatigue from max str”–okay, but I’d expect this to feel like a higher RPE at same HR (and have actually experienced this in previous training cycles) and this wasn’t that–it felt really easy, I just couldn’t keep my heart rate down
“You accidentally found your AnT, not your AeT”–doubt it. I’ve averaged 7:20ish for 4 mi with a negative split (didn’t take HR), 7:00ish/190bpm for a 5k, and 173 HR for ~35min uphill hike within the last year, no major breaks or obvious acute regressions. I suppose I could be in good enough shape that a half-hour-ish effort won’t capture AnT, but look at my actual performances, I’m not exactly Kipchoge here.
“Instrumentation”–maybe, I didn’t notice anything weird at the time of the AeT test but I did notice some anomalous readings from that chest strap ~2 weeks later, changed the battery, still got weird readings, switched makes/models, have noticed nothing weird subsequently.
“Overtraining”–I can’t prove this isn’t it, but I don’t think my volumes (~10hr/week) are way out of line with previous training cycles (especially considering non-training activity volume), I don’t feel run-down or flat or whatever, I still want to get out the door and train, everything feels pretty easy. HR is just misbehaving wildly relative to pace while running. (Hill hiking seems to be behaving about as I would expect, though it’s obviously harder to control for surface, incline, etc.).
“Undertraining”–surely not.
I’ll try a new AeT test fairly soon (not right away, I’m about to change location to a warmer climate and want to acclimate). What else can I do here? In general, what gives?
Participantdcgm on December 26, 2021 at 7:00 am · in reply to: Crosstraining during aerobic capacity building #61145I’ve been getting about half my weekly aerobic volume from hiking hill laps, unladen. Walk up, walk down. HR is quite comfortably in Z1/Z2 on the way up, sometimes drops a little bit on the way down but I don’t worry about that. Less that 15% grade gets a bit inefficient and the one time I used stairs it beat me up noticeably worse than when I used foot trails, but in general it’s been very low impact and it’s obviously more specific to foot-borne activities than rowing, riding, or poling.
Too soon to tell whether this is working, and I won’t claim it doesn’t feel a bit silly to put on shorts and shoes and go walk, but this is the advice I got more or less verbatim from the coaches.
Participantdcgm on December 22, 2021 at 11:10 am · in reply to: 10 weeks into training my AeT is going down and I’m getting slower? #61068Yeah, this feels familiar.
HR drift test —> today’s training run (and the three or four preceding it, more or less)
HR 147 —-> 143
Pa 9:54 —-> 11:00
RPE “steady”, had to push a little —-> really easy, was “riding the brake”
HR drift ~3.5% (by hand) —-> not entirely sure how to interpret Garmin Connect IQ Cardio Drift app output but I think around 3%
Comparable terrain (dead flat vs 165ft elevation gain over the whole course)
Comparable weather (30s/40s F, no wind)
Same shoes
Both fasted/caffeinatedI dunno. I’d have thought if it was fatigue from max strength work and overall training volume I’d feel it.
Participantdcgm on December 15, 2021 at 2:07 pm · in reply to: Programming Gym Based Local Muscular Endurance #60853Ah yeah, I’m actually working on a max strength cycle right now, wasn’t planning to test before about 6 weeks but maybe I’ll throw in the max rep sets more frequently. Thanks!
Participantdcgm on December 10, 2021 at 6:35 am · in reply to: Heart Rate Monitor Troubleshooting Advice #60575“is it normal to go through heart rate monitors like tic tacs?”
I think DC Rainmaker has mentioned somewhere that there’s a subpopulation that seems to do this, for unknown reasons.“Are these bad models/brands and is there another brand I should try, such as Polar?”
Polar customer service isn’t the best IME (won’t support their older models, which they discontinued for no apparent reason), but if I had your track record I might give it a shot.