00:00:00.49

Alyssa

Welcome to the Uphill Athlete podcast.

00:00:03.24

Alyssa

We are here to inspire and elevate all mountain athletes. I am joined by Chantelle Robitaille, our director of coaching and a familiar voice. Today, we are answering your questions about altitude training. So we have collected these questions over social media and a few internal questions that we are excited to answer for you today.

00:00:27.73

Alyssa

So Chantelle, thanks for being on.

00:00:33.50

Chantelle

Thanks, Alyssa, I’m happy to chat about these fun topics.

00:00:39.02

Alyssa

Yeah, we have quite a variety and one thing I will say is that some of these are I guess a fair amount of the questions we have talked about in previous episodes. So we are going to name the episode that we have talked about in detail so that you can reference those um podcast episodes for further answers and just a little bit more information. Um, but Chantel, should we start and dive right into it?

00:01:15.53

Chantelle

Yeah, let’s get into it.

00:01:17.91

Alyssa

Okay. So our first question is what are the ideal strategies for training for shorter distances, like a VK that is at altitude?

00:01:35.62

Chantelle

Well, maybe this is a simpler one to answer. For shorter distances, especially like a VK, a VK is a very different animal. It’s hard, it’s intense, and the goal is to just move up as quickly and as efficiently as possible. And so since people are typically moving up to a certain elevation and they’re staying at each new level of elevation for a very short time, there’s really not a lot you need to worry about in terms of preparing for the altitude itself. But because a VK is so different in the nature of

00:02:13.72

Chantelle

Uh, the physical demands really your training should, you know, you should think about the altitude should be the least of your concerns. The biggest things you want to think about are preparing your body to handle that kind of stress and strain, uh, being able to work that hard for an extended period of time and preparing yourself on as similar terrain as possible in terms of the technicality of the terrain. the, um, the steepness or the grade of the terrain and also the intensity that you’re going to be working at. So take those things into consideration. So like we always talk, we often talk about right with coaching is thinking about first, what is the, what is the objective that you’re working towards? What are the specific demands of that and objective? So what are you going to be asking your body to do right in that kind of a challenge and thinking about where you are now and how much time you have to prepare.

00:03:10.35

Chantelle

What are the specific things you’re going to need to get ready? So to train for something like that, you should be focusing on some. Certainly, like with any training, you don’t want to start any high intensity work before you have a good aerobic base. So let’s assume that that’s already been taken care of. You’re going to want to spend some specific time working on improving your VO2 max, which, you know, it’s 20% trainable. So you’re not spending 100% of your time training that. right So you’re spending some time doing that in that area. But for the most part, you’re going to be doing, should be working on some training that is really in and around your anaerobic threshold or your lactate threshold. So that’s a level of effort that you can sustain for up to an hour. That’s it. It’s pretty hard. It feels uncomfortable. You might feel like you want to puke. That’s right where you want to be, because that’s how you’re going to feel running your VK.

00:04:05.40

Chantelle

So think about how you know the specifics of the training and what those demands are going to be. um Strength training is probably quite important for this as well, making sure that you are your legs are as strong and as powerful as they can be, but also efficiency of movement. So how can you be as efficient as possible moving uphill? For some people that might be finding the delineation of where do I run versus where do I power hike, um How do you take breaks?

00:04:36.33

Chantelle

How do you modulate and manage your effort? Those are all the things that are going to be far more important than worrying about the altitude itself. You’ve done this kind of beast.

00:04:44.91

Alyssa

That’s fantastic.

00:04:47.87

Chantelle

Anything extra you would add, Alyssa?

00:04:50.22

Alyssa

You know, I’ve never actually done a VK and I really want to. I might, I’m headed up to Broken Arrow and so I might do like a

00:04:56.00

Chantelle

Mmm.

00:05:00.70

Alyssa

Don’t tell my coach. um I’m tempted to just do a mock VK.

00:05:06.13

Chantelle

hope you’ not listening

00:05:06.30

Alyssa

Probably, yeah, probably not go as hard, but just be like, okay, this is, I mean, I’ve done, of course, a VK in a race, but I’ve never just like, yeah, go as hard as you can. um Actually, no, I used to do it in high school. Yeah, it was horrible. It’s really hard. You feel like you’re gonna, it’s the hardest thing of like, how do I go as hard as I can for 30-ish minutes? um but

00:05:30.88

Chantelle

I hope you stop listening.

00:05:29.66

Alyssa

i Yeah, I would be, this brought up such an interesting question in my head because I don’t really think of altitude that much for VKs because I feel like most of them start in a town which generally isn’t super high um and so I would be curious what the highest VK in the world is.

00:05:48.37

Chantelle

Mm hmm.

00:05:50.49

Alyssa

Like does it start getting up into ah you know, 11, 12, 13,000 feet. So if anyone knows the answer of what the highest VK in the world is, I would be super curious.

00:06:02.22

Chantelle

Oh, good question. I don’t know the answer to that. Yeah, good question.

00:06:04.82

Alyssa

Yeah.

00:06:07.45

Chantelle

Maybe we’ll have to research that and come back on that. And then for those listeners who maybe are not ah that are not runners who are listening, tuning into this podcast,

00:06:08.91

Alyssa

Yeah.

00:06:18.02

Chantelle

I suppose we should have done this first, but defining ah a VK a v k is the short form. or a common nickname for a vertical kilometer race. So that’s a mountain running race that involves gaining 1000 meters of elevation from start to finish. But the odd thing is, there’s actually no specific distance that the race has to be. So I think the maximum length is usually about 5k.

00:06:40.72

Alyssa

Definitely.

00:06:45.56

Chantelle

But a lot of courses are really short. And a lot of them actually follow a ski root So they’re usually done often on a ski slope, like in the case of Broken Arrow, for example. And that means that the incline is up to 60%. So they’re short, they’re steep, and they definitely require very specific training focused around training around your maximal effort and having strong legs and a strong core.

00:07:14.20

Alyssa

Yeah, I like to think of it as almost the 800 meter of the trail running world where you have to sustain the effort for a fair amount of, like longer than, hey, 400 we’re done.

00:07:24.48

Chantelle

Mmm.

00:07:29.82

Alyssa

So it’s long enough that it’s really uncomfortable and you cannot back off at any point and you’re kind of, it’s the one time I would say that you’re really playing that game of like, oh, I should be running. I should be trying to run. Should I be hiking? Like that’s yeah. Versus the longer races where you are probably being more into power hiking. I feel like with the VK, it’s like, no, there’s a strong chance that if you can run, you should be running.

00:08:00.32

Chantelle

Yeah, absolutely.

00:08:02.90

Alyssa

All right, we have another question, which I also actually really ties into the first question because we’re talking about the length of time that you’re spending in altitude. Uh, but this question is at what height and duration should one consciously consider training for altitude? I imagine this answer varies based on goals and fitness level, for example, I’ve gone from sea level to the top of Whitney in a brisk push and had a successful adventure. What would I need to do to make it an even more successful adventure? Similarly, I raced Broken Arrow coming from sea level and I think I felt much more winded doing this despite it being significantly lower but a more intense effort.

00:08:52.19

Chantelle

Good question. And it’s going to be the annoying answer, that annoying dreaded two word answer.

00:08:53.00

Alyssa

Yeah.

00:08:57.52

Chantelle

It depends. It definitely depends on a lot of different factors, like who you are, what your training looks like. Have you um Have you had exposure to altitude before? Have you had issues at altitude before? And also, just because you’ve gone to altitude before and not had issues doesn’t mean you’re never gonna have issues. um It’s a little bit of a new experience every time. And so it sort of depends. I think Martin did a really good job of covering this in, ah goodness, was it?

00:09:33.24

Chantelle

I don’t know if it was part one or part two, Alyssa, maybe you can help me with which episode.

00:09:35.77

Alyssa

uh part one yeah yeah

00:09:38.30

Chantelle

But Martin did a really good job talking about part one. um He did a really good job talking about thinking about what is your objective? what are the What are the factors that are going to that are going to most determine your success? And how can you prepare for those things? And also, how much time do you have, um you know, realistically speaking? So I think we’ve probably covered this a few times when we talk about coaching and strategies, we always want to look at what is our goal? um What are we hoping to achieve, whatever that is, whether that’s running, or whether that’s a mountaineering goal? And what are the elements that are going to determine our success? There are a lot of different elements within there, right? We have our obviously our

00:10:21.34

Chantelle

mental skills strategies are going to be important. Our nutrition and hydration are going to be important. Our training is going to be important. In some cases, technical skills are going to be important. What kind of gear are we going to need? And then when we think about our fitness and preparing from that perspective, we also have to think about how much time do we have to prepare and where are we starting from? And then we think about what is the best way to move from point A to point B. And it’s not always a simple linear process. So we really have to, we really have to break that down. So in this listener’s question,

00:10:59.50

Chantelle

They say that they had gone from sea level to the top of Whitney in a brisk push and had a successful adventure. That makes a lot of sense because typically when we when our body receives a hypoxic signal, when we go to a higher altitude and we’re talking like even a moderate altitude of about 5,000 feet or 1,500 meters, our body is going to get a hypoxic signal and that’s going to cause some of the early symptoms to start that we know that our body is starting to kind work on acclimatizing. So we notice maybe our heart rate is a little bit higher, breathing is a little bit higher, and that is one of the first things that we start to notice. We’ll start to notice that probably within the first 24 hours. If you’re doing a VK, which is really short, you’re gonna go to that altitude before your body even knows what’s happening to it. So that’s why I say you don’t really have to think about that much in terms of the altitude. It’s not really a factor.

00:11:58.61

Chantelle

if you’re doing a situation where you’re doing something like a quick push. and you’re coming from a lower altitude, you’re going to a higher altitude in a very short amount of time. Similar kind of thing, that first sort of 24 to 48 hours, those are you’re gonna have some mild changes happening in your body that you might notice, but it’s not enough time that the big things are starting to happen. So for a one-day adventure, that you probably it’s it’s probably gonna be inconsequential, not much you have to worry about. um Even for going to a race,

00:12:33.20

Chantelle

Sometimes people will say, what’s the ideal period of time to go before a race? Really, honestly, a race like Leadville that’s pretty much all takes place over 10,000. feet, um you know that that’s going to have a significant impact on your body. So two good options are that you arrive two weeks before and give your body some time. It’s not going to fully be adapted, but it’s going to be you’re going to be over the worst symptoms, which happen early on. Or you arrive just one to two days before and you do the race then. Because really, true adaptation to altitude takes

00:13:13.92

Chantelle

four to six weeks of continual exposure. um And so, you know, if you’re going like a week before you’re going to experience some changes, it’s going to be still kind of challenging. But two weeks is certainly going to be better. More time is going to be a little bit better. And if you don’t have the luxury of time, maybe a little less time is actually going to be better for you. And overall, your fitness matters a lot in these types of races. So, you know the yes, the altitude is going to slow you down. Yes, it’s going to have an impact, a little bit of an impact on your performance. But if we think about the fact that um it does have an impact on our performance, the more fit you are, the meat that means that you know you’re going to have a decrease in your fitness anyway.

00:14:06.24

Chantelle

But if you’re going to have, ah let’s say, a 5% to 10% decrease in your performance, if you’re starting from a higher level of fitness, then that drop matters a little bit less in terms of significance. So focus on the important stuff. There’s no shortcut to performance. With that, also, your general health matters. So make sure that you know if you’re going to go to an event and show up there a week or two in advance. That’s not the time to be hammering yourself because your body is already going through a lot of stress just trying to cope with the new elevation that you’re at. And this is another mistake that I see a lot of people make. They show up to wherever it is that they’re going to do the subjective and they’re excited.

00:14:55.67

Chantelle

and they want to go preview the course, or they want to go hike around and see the sights and do all the things. And their body is already stressed from the altitude, so then they get into problems where they get dehydrated, they’re getting headaches, they’re not feeling well, they’re getting gut issues. This is so common. like Think about people who are starting UTMB on the first day with gut issues. Typically, it’s because they’ve been messing around, not taking care of themselves, And then they show up on race day and they’re already tired or they’re feeling under the weather. So take care of yourself as much as possible to avoid those things.

00:15:34.52

Alyssa

That was spot on. Great answer. Yeah. I think it’s, it’s so easy to get sucked into. Oh, I’m just going to do this and I’m just going to do that. And then all of a sudden you have 20, 25,000, 30,000 steps or so. Uh, steps on your feet? Gosh, I think I’m… what am I trying to say? 30,000 steps and you’re exhausted.

00:15:59.38

Chantelle

That probably makes sense.

00:16:00.20

Alyssa

Yeah, yeah and you’re exhausted and you don’t really know why because you didn’t go on a run but you’ve just been walking around and trying to see everything and it’s really hard because I have been there where I’ve kind of done more and then I’ve done yeah it’s exciting and I’ve done less like Madeira I didn’t really do much and then the race didn’t go very well and I was super sad because I hadn’t seen a lot because I was just like trying to put it all in but you know you have to kind of take your take your risks and I think it’s a great idea to book some time on the other side of the race so you can enjoy it afterwards and not worry about

00:16:13.26

Chantelle

Yeah, it’s exciting.

00:16:36.96

Alyssa

Um, resting up. So yeah, I think that was fantastic.

00:16:40.39

Chantelle

Yeah, that’s a great point. Always think about things like, what’s the priority?

00:16:41.33

Alyssa

I’ve done it.

00:16:44.60

Alyssa

Yeah. Yep. I’ve done a couple of Whitney pushes and I found and I’ve done them from sea level and I feel like you’re, so it’s such a short amount of time. I’ll see that you’re at those higher elevations. It’s like a few hours and then you’re back down so I can see how it would be yeah it’s pretty easy to just I almost think of it as like you’re like eluding the effects of altitude in a way where you’re like oh just go fast enough and like to stay just ahead of it uh and then come back down but yeah

00:17:22.57

Chantelle

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s effectively what you’re doing, right? you’re you’re You’re getting up and you’re getting out before your body has a chance to really register what’s going on. And so when it’s short like that, you know that’s absolutely the best way to go about it. because And then just focus on your training and properly preparing in all the other ways because there’s You know, there’s more than one factor that’s going to influence your success. Altitude is just one. There’s a lot of other stuff you can do and prepare for and control for um in advance.

00:17:59.21

Alyssa

Definitely. So our next question is, how do you begin basic altitude training for mostly flat slash road runners. And Martin touched on this in part one of intro to acclimatization. ah Also, I think we’ve talked about this in the intro to altitude and also chatted a bit about this. Martin and I did a podcast episode back in the training for a trail running series where we talked about altitude.

00:18:32.02

Alyssa

ah considerations for runners. But Chantal, can you give us ah a bit of a background on this?

00:18:43.23

Chantelle

Sure. And we might’ve touched on this already in the previous question too. um You know, most importantly, train. Can’t say it enough. There’s no shortcut. So make sure that you’re doing your training. Make sure that you’re staying really good and healthy. um And I’m not 100% sure on what the person the question is driving towards. How do you begin basic altitude training? I’m assuming what they mean is they live in a flat place or they typically run on roads and they’re going to a higher altitude race. So I’m going to assume that’s what they mean from the question. So if you live in a place that is mostly flat and you’re mostly running on roads,

00:19:29.74

Chantelle

try to get to some trails because they’re, you know, although you can do a lot of great incline training on a treadmill, I think that’s really important when you don’t have access to maybe some bigger hills or sustained hills, that can be really useful. It’s very different running on a road or running on it, especially on a treadmill that’s kind of like pulling you up a little bit as you’re going. It’s very lateral movements, right? When we’re on a trail, it’s typically, unless you’re on a rail trail, a lot of jumping side to side, things like that. So um you don’t get the agility that you need when you’re running on a treadmill or when you’re running on a road. So even if you can get to a trail that is still a little bit flatter, I think that’s going to be important. Try to find some hills around where you live to try to get your legs ready for that. um Certainly strength training is going to be important, but I think strength training

00:20:26.97

Chantelle

I can’t hammer home enough. It is really important for any kind of mountain athlete, whoever you are. You can get away with a lot of silly dumb stuff when you’re in your twenties and arguably maybe in your thirties. But if you’re 40 plus and that tends to be a lot of our listeners, I know it sucks to be indoors and you don’t want to be inside. You’d rather be outside. But strength training is just going to make you more prepared and more resilient overall. So those basic things all have to be covered. um Also, make sure that you’re balancing your training with enough rest. I see a lot of people that always think that you know more is more is better, and that’s not always the case. We’re not getting fitter when we’re doing the thing. We’re getting fitter when we rest, and that means we also have to fuel ourselves properly, and we need to stay hot well hydrated

00:21:15.32

Chantelle

so that our bodies are best prepared to not only do the training that we’re asking our bodies to do, but also that so that we can recover and we can adapt to the training and become stronger. So one of the most important things I think for anyone, regardless of where you’re living and where you’re training, is to make sure that those things are balanced. um Also make sure that you are on top of your health. Get some blood work done. We talk about this also in a couple of our podcasts. um make sure that you know where that you are, that you’re um managing things properly and that you’re staying healthy and sometimes we don’t really

00:21:53.38

Chantelle

see the signs and when we recognize the signs, it’s already too late or it takes a long time to course correct. So getting blood work at regular intervals is important to make sure that everything is well in line and that you’re staying healthy. um Particularly your ferritin, your iron stores, if you’re going to be going to a higher altitude, you want to make sure that your iron stores are in a good place so that you do have the best chance of having a positive response to altitude and a better chance of acclimatizing well. because if your iron stores are not in a good place, you’re not going to give your body that chance. so that can take, if your iron is low, it can take a minimum of six weeks to course correct that. So making sure that you’re on top of that would be important. um And I don’t really know what they mean by altitude training. The only way you could do some altitude training living at and around sea level would be to do some hypoxic training.

00:22:51.49

Chantelle

with a hypoxic generator. So that would mean potentially like sleeping, um sleeping in some form of a tent and that certainly could do. But as we’ve discussed in our part one and part two um intro to altitude and acclimatization strategies podcasts, that takes time and it will take away from your training. So again, you always have to look at all the different elements that you need to be successful in your event or your objective. where you’re starting from now, how much time you have, and what are the different elements you can put into your training. And I would say that your aerobic training and potentially anaerobic, any sort of fitness training and strength training, should come first, and any sort of hypoxic preconditioning should come as a layer on top of that if you have enough time to do it.

00:23:46.49

Alyssa

Perfect. I think, yeah. um I think this is a great way because it’s kind of a general question that you’re able to give specifically like in this scenario, in this scenario, so awesome. i Our next question, which we’ve discussed in Season 5, sorry, Helicopter, the fun part of living on a military base.

00:24:12.23

Chantelle

hahaha

00:24:11.68

Alyssa

i We have discussed this. It was a great discussion ah in the intro to Altitude, Season 5, Episode 1. Chantel and Martin dove into this question, but does Altitude was ah So I’m going to say, does altitude affect women and men differently? If yes, how so?

00:24:38.11

Chantelle

Yes, it does. and As you said, Alyssa, Martin and I covered this in a podcast, but just really briefly, it does impact men and women a little bit differently. ah One, for women and for I mentioned about the iron status, but I can’t stress this enough, particularly for women because women tend to be a little bit more sensitive to um different types of environmental stimulus in general. um Iron status is really important, so can’t hammer that home enough for you know women. That’s going to be particularly important because, particularly for the women who are menstruating, something to be on top of, but for men too, iron monitoring iron status is really important. um For premenopausal women, we do know that

00:25:26.73

Chantelle

um there is a higher ventilatory response during the early luteal and mid luteal phase of the menstrual period. So since women, women in general, have a higher respiratory rate than men in general, regardless of menstrual status, menstrual cycle, or anything like that. That means that in that high hormone phase, that means that we are going to breathe even more than we’re going to.

00:25:57.22

Chantelle

So breathing more frequently. And when we go to altitude, that is something that we all notice, right? We’re breathing a little bit more. We’re trying to bring in a little bit more air and more oxygen.

00:26:04.57

Alyssa

Thank you.

00:26:06.28

Chantelle

So this means that women in that particular cycle of their menstrual phase could be more susceptible to having respiratory distress or like asthmatic types of symptoms. um And this is going to be a little bit, you know, not something that men typically have to contend with. um in the way that women do. For postmenopausal women, they are going to have a similar um kind of hyperventilation response, but they also kind of have a cardiac response as well. So the threshold um the threshold to the kind of signal from the environment is a little bit stronger. And that means that it’s going to be a little bit harder for the cardiovascular system to respond to the output that it’s going to need. So it means that there might be just a little bit of a lag in terms of how long it will take for a postmenopausal woman to adapt to altitude compared to a premenopausal woman.

00:27:09.53

Chantelle

um And in general, women spare carbohydrates at altitude better than men. So that’s great. That’s an actual advantage for women. Men are going to use more carbohydrates for fuel at higher altitudes. Women naturally have more body fat and we are better fat burners at altitude. So that’s a good thing for us. However, at higher intensities, um altitude is going to be a little bit harder because estrogen is triggering our bodies to hang onto those carbohydrates that we need for those hard efforts.

00:27:42.63

Chantelle

So that’s going to make it a little bit harder.

00:27:43.25

Alyssa

fire

00:27:45.26

Chantelle

So just noticing that you might need a little bit more time to warm up, that it might take a little bit longer for you to settle into a higher effort as well. And just, you know, have that awareness, give yourself a little bit of grace and a little bit of kindness, you’ll get there. Um, but your, your response and the signals that your body is receiving are going to be transmitted just a little bit more, a little bit differently. And the response time is going to be potentially a little bit slower. Um, and that’s okay. Knowing it’s, it’s not good or bad. It’s just information. So use the information and, and you know,

00:28:23.98

Chantelle

Make it a superpower instead.

00:28:27.32

Alyssa

Perfect. And yeah, I do think that one of the things that we hear with women in altitude, especially on trips, is a lot of times trying to keep up with groups. And my guess is that a lot of that stems from it taking longer to warm up. And so you get in this like, okay, they take off and you’re still trying to warm up. And that causes some fear and some anxiety of like, I can’t keep up.

00:28:59.93

Alyssa

And then that feeds into, yeah.

00:29:01.96

Chantelle

Yeah.

00:29:02.99

Alyssa

And so I would say that just knowing that, okay, I will get there. I’m okay. I’m just taking little longer to warm up that that hopefully gives some grace as you said and just some comfort of no you’re not in shape you’re not not in shape you haven’t you know gone backwards you can do this it’s just your system takes longer and you can do this so i mean

00:29:30.44

Chantelle

Yeah. And if you’re in a race situation, if you’re in a race situation, yeah, just run your own race, your own thing. But if you’re in a group, to your point, Alyssa, if you’re in a group, and I had this conversation with a woman in a consult last week, you’re in a group with other men and you know that this is how your body responds. When you’re going out on an adventure, you’re talking about the weather, you’re talking about avalanche conditions, you’re talking about how much food people have in their packs. Who’s got the first aid kit? Does anyone have a health condition or problem? Bring it up.

00:30:02.05

Chantelle

This is a fact that is going to influence you on this journey, whatever your objective is, and let them know, hey, I’m going to have to be pretty slow and deliberate when I’m starting out today.

00:30:01.80

Alyssa

Yeah.

00:30:14.89

Chantelle

I’m in this phase of my period. This is how it’s affecting me. This is how I’m planning to support myself, and here’s how you can support me. um Another factor to mention that is also kind of consequential is that women’s relationship and tolerance to risk will also vary across the menstrual cycle. This is a fact. And if you know that this is a factor for you, Alyssa, I know we’ve talked about this quite a few times as well, bring that up to a group.

00:30:39.87

Alyssa

ye

00:30:43.70

Alyssa

oh yeah

00:30:48.17

Chantelle

Bring that up to the group and share about how my risk tolerance today is a little lower than normal. So I am but The highest grade that I’m willing to climb today is this, or you know I’m feeling really nervous about this type of situation. I would like to turn around. Bring that up when you’re at the trailhead, before you’re heading out, so everyone knows.

00:31:06.94

Alyssa

Yep.

00:31:09.62

Chantelle

And this is just a fact of life.

00:31:09.00

Alyssa

Oh, yeah.

00:31:11.87

Chantelle

This is a fact of who you are. And we have to normalize this as being part of a key part of anyone’s adventure plan.

00:31:21.91

Alyssa

Absolutely. And I will say to go back to warming up, those men will thank you later when they’re sucking wind and you’re flying if you all start out a little bit slower.

00:31:36.69

Chantelle

ah True.

00:31:36.63

Alyssa

So warming up for everyone is never a bad thing. But yes, the risk, gosh, we should

00:31:44.33

Chantelle

Absolutely.

00:31:44.89

Alyssa

That’s an article that needs to be written. I’ve started one about how i well, I’ve actually had a friend say that they call it the wobbles when you’re feeling particularly wobbly is ah the days where your risk factor is a little bit low and I have had more than one wobbly day and it’s much better to just know that upfront and I think

00:31:59.42

Chantelle

ah Yeah.

00:32:10.71

Alyssa

There’s a lot of shame that’s carried around it. um If you start to feel that you’re going beyond what you’re willing to do that day, and then you don’t there’s this constant cycle of I don’t want to let my partners down. I don’t want to be the weak link. I don’t want to feed the narrative that women are um often kind of the tagalongs or secondary. And if I say anything, then I’m feeding into that narrative and then you’re getting more anxious and it’s causing all of those pieces to um escalate. And I have done that whole shame cycle in my head many times.

00:32:54.65

Alyssa

And then you just burst out crying and you’re and like everything kind of falls apart. And so I love that. bringing that up at the beginning, just being straightforward and honest. ah It also, I think opens the floor up because it’s not like there’s no men are just like, Oh yeah, impervious. I shall just go down the trail and nothing’s wrong with me. Like they’re probably bringing, they are bringing factors into that day as well. So if we’re all a bit more honest and transparent about how we’re feeling, we will all be safer and a better team for it.

00:33:34.22

Chantelle

yeah a hundred percent

00:33:33.93

Alyssa

Yeah.

00:33:35.96

Chantelle

hundred percent

00:33:34.44

Alyssa

and That’s why soapbox for the day.

00:33:40.18

Alyssa

All right. yes So let’s go on to our next question, which is, is it better to sleep in a tent or train with a mask while using hypoxic, a hypoxic compressor? And we have talked about this in season five, episode six,

00:33:56.84

Chantelle

Yeah,

00:33:58.50

Alyssa

part two of acclimatization strategies, but Chantel, can you add a bit of wisdom onto this?

00:34:00.60

Chantelle

100%, 100%.

00:34:08.92

Chantelle

Yeah, I think the thing to note here is that these are two, these are two actually two different strategies for two different purposes. So when you’re when someone is sleeping in a so both of these involve a hypoxic generator. So the gen basically what this generator is doing, whether you are breathing in air through a mask, or it is under some form of a tent, and there are tents that maybe cover your whole bed, or there are tents that just cover your sort of head and shoulders, is that compressor is removing some of the air within that space and replacing it with nitrogen. So it’s effectively reducing the amount of oxygen that you’re breathing in. And that is hyperbaric hypoxia. So when you are out in real altitude, out in the wild, um that is hypobaric

00:35:02.17

Chantelle

ah hypobaric hypoxia. and that me And that is influenced by the barometric pressure around you. So there’s always the same 21% of oxygen in the air, no matter where we are, but when we have

00:35:10.32

Alyssa

Okay.

00:35:17.29

Chantelle

ah areas of lower pressure than the amount, the the particles of oxygen that we’re breathing are more dispersed. So there’s less of those, ah even though there’s still 21% of the oxygen in the air, we’re able to get less of them into what we breathe. And then there’s also the barometric pressure effect on our body, on our muscles, on our organs, on our tissues, hearts, lungs, et cetera, that are not mimicked. um when we’re using an altitude tent. So although there are some things that the tent can help us with in terms of pre-acclimatizing, you’re going to get a different level of acclimatization when you’re out in the wild. um So some of the things that you’re not going to get from an oxygen tent that you get in with real altitude exposure, and of course this takes time, is the

00:36:16.67

Chantelle

is the increase in red blood cells. So that’s one thing that we can’t really mimic probably in, and I know we’ll go into detail in another future podcast about this. So that’s how, um, that’s sort of the, what I want to point out the difference between the two. When you’re sleeping in a tent, you have the tent over you and you’re, you’re kind of in this confined environment for, you know, eight to 12 hours in a day and you’re just laying there and you’re not doing anything. um So it takes a lot of time and a lot of hours in that tent to have an impact and Then and that’s you know a good way to pre acclimatize When we’re talking about training with a mask and we’re doing something actively that is called typically what we’re talking about here is like a

00:37:08.40

Chantelle

more like active hypoxic training or some people are doing what’s called intermittent hypoxic training. So this is almost like doing intervals with a um with a generator attached to a mass that you’re breathing in and you’re controlling the percentage of oxygen that you’re breathing to simulate varying altitudes. So you could do, you could be on a treadmill and you could be on a treadmill kind of running or walking along and you could simulate 20,000 feet or 6,000 meters for five minutes. And then you could change that, dial that back down to 6,000 meters or sorry, 6,000 feet for five minutes as a recovery. So you can also do this type of active training. And so this type of training is not so much done for pre acclimatization.

00:38:02.41

Chantelle

But it’s more to kind of prepare yourself um mentally and physiologically and for what you’re going to face when you are going on this higher altitude adventure. So some people will do this type of training, not because they’re going to altitude at all, but for some people it’s actually a way to improve their performance wherever they are living. So some people will do it for an improvement of performance. um In some cases, there are some good studies that this type of hypoxic training can be helpful for certain types of illnesses like brain injury, maybe Alzheimer’s disease, certain types of cancer.

00:38:43.98

Chantelle

So sometimes people are using this as a type of therapy. um There’s some good evidence to show that it can be helpful for cognitive function. So many other reasons people are going to use this hypoxic training. But typically when we’re thinking about athletes using hypoxic training, it’s usually for performance gains or to kind of prepare them for the demands of high altitude and also um mentally preparing you how that feels to be. It’s one thing to be sleeping in a tent or laying in a tent, not doing anything when you have a hypoxic generator that is mimicking 20,000 feet. And it’s another thing to be on a treadmill with a 15% incline hiking

00:39:30.55

Chantelle

with that generator breathing air that is stimulating an oxygen environment at 20,000 feet. That’s going to feel different. So mentally, it also helps kind of prepare for that too. So they’re two completely different things and they’re used for different purposes.

00:39:49.85

Alyssa

Perfect. So that goes into another question that we had. And I’ll try to interpret it a little bit. But is it realistic to simulate altitude with the, I think they’re they’re saying hypoxia, I think hypoxic compressor. And then how accurate are they in lowering altitude? And I think that means lowering the effect of altitude. um And I think you’ve already covered this to a large extent, also covered it in the part two acclimatization strategies.

00:40:24.55

Alyssa

But yeah, if you want to just wrap kind of the conversation on the hypoxic, yeah.

00:40:31.67

Chantelle

Yeah, it’s like, it’s, it’s certainly, it’s certainly helpful, but it’s not going to be the same as exposing, you know, the exposure to altitude in the wild.

00:40:32.00

Alyssa

yeah

00:40:44.15

Chantelle

It’s certainly going to be helpful, and can be helpful. But again, as with any kind of intervention like this, you have people who are going to find it really helpful.

00:40:50.30

Alyssa

Thanks.

00:40:53.85

Chantelle

You’re going to have people that are going to find it not helpful at all. And you’re going to have some people that are going to find it extremely unhelpful. Because think about doing this type of training. It is stressful on your body. It is going to impact your sleep quality. If you’re sleeping inside of a tent and you’re sharing, you are enclosed in this contraption and you have a partner that you’re sharing a bed with, that’s going to impact that person as well. So it’s disruptive to your life.

00:41:25.70

Chantelle

um It’s going to impact your training. So it is going to be stressful on you. So you may not be able to train as hard or as well. um You’re going to be dehydrated, um you may not feel so great. So all those things are going to impact you as well. And I think Martin did a really great job of explaining the pros and cons and what are some factors to consider if you’re going to think about doing this type of training. So you have to make sure that you you’re doing all the other things right to kind of support the extra stress that this is gonna have on you so that you’re gonna get the, if you’re gonna spend the time and um let’s face it, the money, right, in doing this type of training, you wanna make sure that you’re gonna set yourself up for success. So make sure that all other elements of your training are also well managed so that you get the best benefit out of it.

00:42:17.67

Alyssa

perfect and I would just add I think that sometimes there is this idea of oh if I do if I sleep in the tent or I wear a mask it will make it easy to be at much higher altitudes and I would say that the general thread that I have heard from

00:42:34.74

Chantelle

hahaha

00:42:38.73

Alyssa

uh this season and also just talking and I’ve been at moderate altitude but nothing or moderate to high but nothing too crazy uh is that there is nothing that is easy about it it’s just managing increasing levels of discomfort or like really high discomfort and so I would say none of this is going to make being at six seven eight thousand meters easy it’s just going to make it possibly manageable

00:43:10.87

Chantelle

Yeah, it’s training yourself to be comfortable being uncomfortable, because it’s still going to be uncomfortable very uncomfortable.

00:43:16.16

Alyssa

Exactly. and

00:43:20.61

Alyssa

Yes. ah So this question we have next slightly changing directions. Are there benefits to athletes who live at altitude ah but want to train lower or at lower altitudes? And then how do you structure this? Which we really can’t get into. I mean that’s a whole training plan. It’s totally dependent on

00:43:45.14

Chantelle

that’s a whole podcast probably

00:43:44.14

Alyssa

what you are training for. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it’s like, are you a track athlete? Are you a Mountaineer? You know, there’s so many pieces to that. And we have talked about this of the Martin’s gone over the live high, train low, train low or at live low, train high, train high, live high, i both in the training for trail running altitude episode and also

00:44:09.14

Chantelle

That’s a whole podcast probably.

00:44:13.97

Alyssa

um in the part one of acclimatization strategies where we were talking about moderate to high altitude. But Chantel, if you want to just give kind of an ah depends coach answer.

00:44:29.28

Chantelle

Yeah, it really does depend on a lot of things, right? Like what’s your experience? What are you training for? What’s your goal? What’s your purpose? What altitude do you live at? um you know And does that matter? And then what are you going to carry out because that’s not an easy thing to do, right? So um There are now you know a few around the world gyms that actually have, that are not only temperature controlled, but also a kind of altitude controlled. So they have these specific training rooms that they set to, ah they have ah a generator there that is, instead of sleeping in a tent or having a mask on, the actual room is set to

00:45:14.21

Chantelle

uh, to sort of mimic a particular elevation. So it’s possible to train in these types of facilities. Um, and some of them, you know, and with the generator, if you are at a higher altitude, you can live at a higher altitude, like think about the Olympic training center, for example, in Colorado Springs, you know, they’re at around 6,000 feet.

00:45:24.53

Alyssa

. . .

00:45:34.23

Chantelle

They have an altitude room. They can, they can change the conditions of that room so that it is more like being at sea level. So that you know that kind of training could take place. um and so what might be a reason for an athlete doing that? Let’s say there was an athlete that was um new to that environment and they weren’t fully acclimatized or they were having or they lived at that at that altitude for a while and just felt like they were having some issues that they couldn’t sort of break through a performance plateau for whatever reason. Maybe that’s something that might try you know to see, like are there some things we can do by

00:46:17.23

Chantelle

changing the environmental conditions that are going to have an impact on that on that person. um Maybe that’s a reason why someone might do it. Or if it was like a power athlete and they were feeling like their power was kind of being limited and there were some reasons to think that maybe their home elevation was a factor, maybe they want to change that. Because typically speaking for people who are sort of high altitude dwellers, you know that you’ve lived at a high altitude for a long time. If you think about your blood oxygen saturation, people who are living at sea level, their blood oxygen saturation, but unless they have a health problem, should be 100%.

00:46:56.73

Chantelle

For someone who lives at high altitude, like personally, I’ve lived at high altitude now for a long time, around at least a decade now, right?

00:46:56.99

Alyssa

you.

00:47:05.81

Chantelle

If I were to check my blood oxygen concentration, it’s never going to be 100. Maybe it’s 94, maybe it’s 96, maybe sometimes it’s great and it’s 98, but it’s never going to be 100%. So putting myself in a higher oxygen environment could allow me to perform a little bit better, to work a little bit harder, to push a little bit further. So again, it’s going to be really individual based on what someone’s situation’s like, what their goal is, whether they have maybe some underlying health conditions as well that could be influencing them, um that they might consider something like that.

00:47:45.77

Alyssa

Love it. Yeah. I always think of it as, I don’t know. Well, I always think of it as marathon runners where I think a lot of times they’ll do their faster workouts where they’re trying to hit specific places that they would say be trying to do in the Boston marathon or, uh, the Chicago, you know, with the Olympics, like it’s really hard to hit those paces at the altitude.

00:48:04.00

Chantelle

Mm hmm.

00:48:07.88

Alyssa

And so for them to simulate the actual race experience, I think oftentimes they go to lower elevation or go to the room. to be like, okay, this is what 458 feels like, which isn’t saying to me, but yes.

00:48:22.19

Chantelle

Yeah. Yeah, it’s wild to think about that, right?

00:48:23.89

Alyssa

um

00:48:26.26

Chantelle

How fast they’re actually going. So yeah, it’s going to be a very specific kind of person who’s going to benefit from that with a very specific goal.

00:48:36.29

Alyssa

Yes. So our last, well, we have two left. This is a question and I think it’s a much bigger answer but we have a lot of athletes who are uh, in their sixties, seventies, uh, going and doing these bigger mountains, which is really incredible. Um, and so we want to get into how age influences the effects of altitude? Is it a factor and what might be some physiological differences in changes in, uh, the response altitude as you start to age?

00:49:24.24

Chantelle

I love this question actually. First of all, let me start with age is not a barrier.

00:49:26.75

Alyssa

Okay.

00:49:29.76

Chantelle

Age alone is not a barrier to whatever you want to do. I think like if you, man, look at our Instagram feed in the last little while, we’ve had so many wonderful athletes that we are working with who are definitely north of 50 doing pretty incredible things, you know, summoning mountains, running a hundred kilometer races in the Alps, doing all kinds of things.

00:49:49.35

Alyssa

So,

00:49:51.64

Chantelle

So age alone is not a barrier. However, we do know that with age comes some changes in our health. And typically speaking, the older a person is, regardless of living a healthy lifestyle, they are more likely to have some underlying health conditions. So we see changes maybe in cholesterol cholesterol levels, cardiovascular health, um all kinds of other you know ah breathing issues, things like that, you know especially when we think about

00:50:23.44

Chantelle

people who’ve had COVID right over the last several years, we are seeing people who are a little bit older or or who never even knew they had an underlying health condition, had extremely severe um COVID symptoms. And then they learned that, oh, I didn’t know I had a problem already going on with my, a minor problem going on with my heart or with my lungs or something like that.

00:50:40.43

Alyssa

We’ll be right back.

00:50:50.71

Chantelle

So, um you know Another good reason for if you’re about to undertake a new adventure, a change in your activity status, something like that, please see a doctor, get a full health screening, and talk to them about what you’re planning to do. If they tell you that you’re crazy and you shouldn’t do it, see someone else. ah There’s going to be someone else who’s going to say, wow someone who is over the age of 50 who wants to live a healthy lifestyle and be active and climb mountains with their children and grandchildren. Heck yeah, let’s make that happen. Talk to someone else if you get that kind of answer.

00:51:27.03

Chantelle

But make sure that you don’t have something underlying that’s going on. So you know For someone who has a heart condition or who has an issue with their blood pressure, hypertension, things like that, that’s going to impair your ability to adapt and acclimate to altitude. So make sure that if you if you you know you get these things checked out and it doesn’t mean that if you have, you know ah you encounter some underlying health condition, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you can’t do some of these adventures that you want to do, but you’re going to need some really good medical advice and you’re going to need some really good preparation and training to be able to handle that.

00:51:48.26

Alyssa

. . . .

00:52:12.21

Chantelle

So one of the big things that influences people going to altitude, and this is really any age, but it’s probably a little more pronounced for people who are over the age of 45, is impaired endothelial function. And endothelial cells are the little cells that line our blood vessels, and they help control the opening and closing of our arteries. So that regulates our, that helps our body regulate our blood pressure. And it also influences how hard your heart has to work to pump the blood through your body.

00:52:46.30

Chantelle

So you can imagine that if the endothelial cells are impaired in any way and your arteries are narrowed, that means that your blood is not gonna be able to move well through your body.

00:52:55.00

Alyssa

. . . .

00:52:59.92

Chantelle

That’s gonna increase your blood pressure and that’s going to influence How well you’re going to be able to adapt to altitude obviously because you’re going to maybe you’re already dealing with shortness of breath. Maybe you already experience dizziness, sometimes exercising at your home elevation. Maybe you are already having some issues with your blood pressure and blood pressure is a really important function because that’s gonna put a stress on your heart if your blood pressure is already high, that’s gonna stress your body out.

00:53:36.57

Chantelle

So you’re gonna wanna figure that out, right?

00:53:36.78

Alyssa

. . . We’ll

00:53:39.33

Chantelle

Get to know that in advance. And so there definitely, you know, haven’t been enough studies on people over 50 going to higher altitude, but we certainly do have some good studies on people who are over the age of 50 living at higher altitude. And what we do know is that naturally with age, our VO2 max decreases. So people in this age category can certainly benefit from doing some training on the higher end of the aerobic spectrum to keep that as high as it can be.

00:54:06.03

Alyssa

be right back.

00:54:12.75

Chantelle

So good training is important. It could be that they’re going to need additional days to acclimatize when you go to higher elevations.

00:54:14.60

Alyssa

We’ll

00:54:21.52

Chantelle

um And I have run across a study on looking at thinking about Kilimanjaro, That’s a popular climb for people of all ages. It’s not technical. So we have some really good data on people. And most of the people who have problems not summoning are 50 and above. And in a recent study that was done on this population, this but the success rate was drastically improved by giving them just one more day from the standard acclimatization protocol.

00:54:42.01

Alyssa

Interesting.

00:54:43.74

Alyssa

be right back.

00:54:54.09

Chantelle

Just one extra day was enough to improve their success rate pretty dramatically. So things to think about. One, b really has a really good picture of your overall health. um Speak to a doctor. If you know that you do have an issue with hypertension, talk to your doctor about this to make sure whether this is going to be safe for you.

00:55:07.42

Alyssa

Okay.

00:55:16.50

Alyssa

We’ll

00:55:18.13

Chantelle

And it could be with some prophylactic medication like acetazolamide program. that that’s going to be enough to help keep you safe and allow you to still go to a higher altitude. so This is a drug that can help with regulating your ventilation rate, increasing diuresis, so making sure that you are, you know, flushing excess water out of your system, excess fluid out of your system.

00:55:41.34

Alyssa

to

00:55:45.64

Alyssa

be right back.

00:55:48.76

Chantelle

and It can also sometimes help improve sleep issues that people tend to get at higher altitudes. so It could be that this type of drug could be helpful for you, but I think these are the most important things. But the main factors that are gonna help improve your chance of success, know what you’re dealing with in advance, speak to a medical professional, make sure you’re doing everything you can to stay healthy.

00:56:09.55

Alyssa

That’s

00:56:14.37

Chantelle

That means having a good training program that is going to challenge you in the right ways, but builds in enough rest, and also potentially um giving yourself additional time

00:56:17.85

Alyssa

amazing. Yeah, and as you said, we have so many athletes who are

00:56:26.14

Chantelle

to acclimatize because your body is just going to have a little bit of a slower response.

00:56:33.49

Alyssa

That’s amazing, yeah and as you said, we have so many athletes who are incredible. I don’t love the word success of just, you know, summoning, but success at being in the mountains, doing what they love, climbing with their adult children, grandchildren.

00:56:52.28

Chantelle

challenging themselves

00:56:51.80

Alyssa

it’s

00:56:54.31

Chantelle

yeah

00:56:53.37

Alyssa

Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I always, they’ll be like, ah, well, I have five good years left. I’m like, no, you have a bunch of good years left. You know, let’s not just cap it at this time. Um, but yeah, that’s fantastic. And it’s exciting to see. And I hope that there is more research that is done on people who are actually you know climbing, like amazing that we have people who are living, but then yeah, hitting that demographic. So that brings us to our last question, which is,

00:57:30.86

Alyssa

How do I incorporate hypoxic pre acclimatization, hypoxic training, um, into my actual training plan? Because it is not just simple, Oh, we added on top. That’s, uh, that’s the recipe for disaster. So uphill has a number of ways that we are incorporating into training plans. I know you and Martin are leading this. So yeah, we’d love to hear how we are doing that.

00:58:02.08

Chantelle

yeah So there’s, you know, with training, I think there’s definitely an art and a science and that’s where the art and the science really has to come into play.

00:58:02.01

Alyssa

Okay.

00:58:10.50

Chantelle

So, you know, having a plan is really important. You know, if you if you, how does that go? If you fail to plan you plan to fail. So you have to have a plan. You have to be really clear about what your goals are, how you’re going to meet those goals. what that training is going to look like and having a place, a proper place of evaluating whether some pre acclimatization is going to be helpful for you.

00:58:29.50

Alyssa

So,

00:58:38.56

Chantelle

If you decide that that makes sense and that you have the time to do it, then that has to be woven into your regular training program pretty carefully. And this is different for everyone. This is not something that you can do if one size fits all. with a regular training plan, we could give our 24-week mountaineering training plan to 100 people, 100 different people who are doing different things, and probably all of those people, if they’ve never followed a training plan before, they’re going to feel good and have a good chance at success just because they’ve had a training plan, even if it’s not perfectly dialed into them and their objective, right? Following a plan is certainly going to help. When it comes into a hypoxic training plan,

00:59:23.83

Chantelle

Um, whether you are weaving, whether you’re doing like a sleep protocol, uh, for pre acclimation, or you’re incorporating some intermittent hypoxic training, sort of active training with a mask.

00:59:23.95

Alyssa

You’re welcome. We’re

00:59:36.71

Chantelle

That’s something where we cannot give a one size fits all program. Because we have to consider so many different factors and when we do a hypoxic training plan that is evaluated every single day and it’s updated every day compared to like when we are typically when we are working with athletes one-on-one and we are

00:59:54.69

Alyssa

Okay.

00:59:56.53

Chantelle

We are preparing their training plan kind of week by week with hypoxic training that has to be done sort of day by day because we are looking at every day, how is the person doing?

00:59:56.66

Alyssa

I’m going to go to the next one.

01:00:07.75

Chantelle

How are they sleeping? How are they feeling? Are they losing weight? How’s their energy? How’s their mood? And also trying to balance the stress of the training with the the the stress of the active training with the stress of the

01:00:20.39

Alyssa

Regular.

01:00:22.79

Chantelle

sleep training protocol or the hypoxic tent sleep training protocol. And we’re adjusting that every single day. So every person is going to adapt to these things differently. And because that is quite difficult, um Martin has sort of been our first, has taken on a few athletes this year where he was doing both their sort of training, like active training protocol,

01:00:49.73

Alyssa

regular Yeah.

01:00:52.92

Chantelle

and their hypoxic training protocol and blending the two together. And that worked really well effectively because Martin was doing both of those things. And then maybe this is a little bit of a teaser, but we are working on trying to make this available for more athletes. So for athletes that are really wondering how they can incorporate these things and want to rent a generator or they’re purchasing a generator and want to have some expert guided advice, we are going to be able to offer this to athletes who are coached by uphill athlete coaches.

01:01:20.41

Alyssa

So,

01:01:24.39

Chantelle

So it’s a little, it would be really difficult for us to provide this additional um element to training to someone working with an outside coach because all coaches kind of have different methods. Whereas as an uphill athlete, we Even though coaches might do things a little bit differently, we’re all working under a similar philosophy. We’re all science guided. And so the, and the communication between the two coaches is going to be really important because there will be potentially a different coach doing the everyday training and then a different coach.

01:01:52.76

Alyssa

Okay.

01:01:59.91

Chantelle

Maybe it’s Martin, and maybe it’s myself that is overseeing the hypoxic training component. And then we’ll be working with the coach and the athlete to marry those things together because it’s not just something that you kind of layer on top. We really have to intermingle them to make sure that we are challenging our athlete in just the right way.

01:02:22.79

Alyssa

Yes, and I can say from a couple of athletes that have integrated protocols of varying degrees that, yes, the amount of hands-on checking every day is like, oh my gosh, they slept an hour last night because they just couldn’t, they were really uncomfortable. You know, it’s very much, yes, personalized and has to be monitored a lot. So yeah, this is I mean that’s super exciting. I’m not even sure if there’s other companies that are really, is anyone else really doing this?

01:03:04.38

Chantelle

I think there are a couple of altitude consultants that are offering that, but I’m not sure. And there are a couple like the altitude training center in London. um They do have, you know, a ah take a ah really good, I think, integrated approach to that. And I think that’s something that we’re really excited about being able to do because it really does need an integrated approach to get the best result. And if you’re, let’s face it, if you’re going to spend the money on getting this generator or renting this generator and you’re going to be training, you know you might as well do it right because there’s a pretty high cost if you goof it up.

01:03:31.56

Alyssa

oh

01:03:45.38

Alyssa

That is very true. Well, thank you, Chantel, for that. And we’re excited to see those elements come out as uphill offerings. You can see more at Alyssa.com. You can book a consultation to talk to Chantel or Barton or any of our other coaches. And thank you for being here and listening. And thank you, Chantel, for your time.

01:04:16.46

Chantelle

Yeah Thanks, Alyssa, and thanks everyone who submitted great questions for our discussion today.

01:04:20.86

Alyssa

Yes, very hopeful. It’s not just one, but a community. We are uphill athletes.