Training for Trail Running: Longevity at the Top (with John Kelly)

00:18.55
steve
Welcome to the uphill athlete podcast. Our mission is to elevate and inspire all mountain athletes through education and celebration. My name is Steve house and I will be your host today along with Alyssa Clark.

00:36.23
steve
Today we are discussing longevity, balancing family life with big challenges and tackling a huge variety of distances and successes. We have an incredible guest who needs little introduction. John Kelly is a prolific runner, data scientist and father to four plus a border collie he has successfully taken on everything from ironman world championships, fast marathons, multi-day fkt’s, two hundred mile races and last but not least his 2 time finishes of the barkley marathons we could keep going but we’ll stop there for now. John thanks for being on the show.

01:17.50
John
Thanks for having me excited to be here and looking forward to our discussion.

01:22.74
Alyssa
Yeah, me too. So I actually think that we’ve met before where I very awkwardly introduced myself at tor des geants. Did you first run it in 2019 or 2021?

01:36.42
John
I ran it in both years. I’ve yet to have a good race that I’m happy with there. So headed back to hopefully get that this year. But yeah, my last my last result there was a bout with rhabdo that resulted in a dnf fifty miles in so yeah.

01:57.34
Alyssa
Holy cow I didn’t realize. Wow it is, I’ll go on a slight tangent and then we’ll get back to it. But yeah I just was saying to my friend. It’s just like everything at tor is bigger like it’s just this.. It’s so big I can barely wrap my head around it. I had altitude induced bronchitis and then was having um basically like fainting spells at altitude which were super odd and not super safe. So yeah I have two dnfs at Tor and it is also somewhat of my kryptonite as well. So I feel you on that.

02:30.52
John
Yeah, it’s. It’s just an absolutely beautiful course and incredible place. But you know it’s important to remember no matter how many of these things we do that there are always odd combinations of variables that can lead to these sort of disastrous results. No matter how experienced we are and so you know it’s important to be on the lookout for those things and I’m certainly glad I didn’t try to push through that in my last experience at tor.

03:02.35
steve
Okay, so I got to come in and ask the Gumby newbie question. What exactly happened? I didn’t catch it.

03:12.16
John
Ah so rhabdomyolysis is something I’ve always kind of associated more to be honest with people that do Crossfit and go way too hard way too fast.

03:21.21
Alyssa
Um, like Crossfit. Yeah.

03:26.61
John
It’s a condition basically where your muscles break down faster than your body can process it and it can lead to acute Kidney failure which is quite bad News. I was able to recognize that you know this isn’t normal like there are always those normal low points and tough spots and pains and everything else that you experience in Ultras, but it was not normal I was not able to get any fluids down you know puking my guts out at an aid station. My urine was quite the concerning color and I called it at that point and the symptoms the next few days certainly confirmed that I stopped early enough to where I was able to you know, essentially just drink a liter of of water per hour and and get things flushed out and and fully recover from that but it can definitely be a dangerous condition if you don’t catch it in time and and get the care that you need.

04:40.82
Alyssa
Yeah I think that that’s a great reminder I’ve actually had I was peeing blood during an attempt on the pinhoti trail. The first time I did it and I think that it’s

04:53.80
Alyssa
I mean not great obviously that it’s happened but it’s great that we’re bringing this up as distance runners saying that it is a possibility in the longer events for this to happen and for us to be aware of it because I think that sometimes there is the mentality of oh it will go away or oh I’ll just keep pushing and we have to recognize that rhabdo is something that happens in longer distance events and it’s not something to mess with. It’s not something that we can just say oh it will get better. It’s final, just take a break. It is quite dangerous if you let it continue too far.

05:31.20
John
Yeah and for me I’ve done things that have been harder, faster, hotter, longer, higher elevation like none of those individual factors at Tor could cause that but there’s just there’s so many variables in this sport.

05:33.21
Alyssa
Yeah.

05:49.10
John
There are always going to be unique combinations that we haven’t seen before and I think it was you know the altitude a bit of dehydration the vert some life stresses that I had at the time all just kind of came together into this perfect storm that gave me this result so it’s just that’s always been one of the most important things to me as I’ve gained experience in this sport to recognize the difference between what is discomfort and what is danger.

06:24.20
steve
Yeah, and I know we’re totally off script but I want to dig in on this because I find this so interesting that you know it’s this sort of you have to have this non-judgmental approach to these things right to stay safe and it’s this very much the same in alpinism where you may want to keep going. You know you may want to finish the race you may want but it is what it is and you have to just bring a certain amount of acceptance to that and make the right decision and then you also as I can tell from just watching you and listening to you that you’re completely comfortable with that decision right? And how great is that you know you can have that sort of zen approach to it and that’s great.

07:14.65
John
Yeah, it’s definitely not a decision I wanted to make you know I had just made the trip. Spent tons of time preparing for this.

07:17.62
steve
Sure.

07:26.97
John
Had people there supporting me that was even you know the bigger thing for me I had crew out there that were giving up their own time to see me be successful in my race and and I had to look and say you know I’m sorry I can’t go on with it and it was a tough uncomfortable decision to make but afterwards I’m 100% comfortable with the fact that I made it and knowing that it was the right thing to do.

07:51.30
Alyssa
Yeah I want to actually dig into that a little bit because I think it’s something and wow we’re talking to someone who literally just was a second time finisher of Barkley and all we’ve talked about is the dnf but I do think that this is interesting for people. We don’t get to hear about this side of the events as much but how was your mental state after tor how did you deal with that because I’ve dealt with like I said I’ve DNF’d tor twice and the backside I think is actually the most interesting part. Rather than the successful races.

08:28.95
John
Yeah, and it’s something that for me it was tough because I kind of had a string of DNFs or results that I wasn’t happy with and for me you know my approach to Ultra running or endurance events in general has always been a swing for the fences to go for the the big challenge to reach farther than what I might think is currently possible for me and to be okay with. The fact that failure is a likely option. Well not an option but a likely result but still when you get a string of those in a row it hurts and you start to doubt yourself and you start to wonder if you know maybe you’re slowing and can you get back to where you were. Fortunately I have since then and I think a big part of that is being able to accept that outcome and to look at it rationally and see what I can learn from it and how to use that going forward rather than having the mindset of you know, coming away from that. Just blindly trying to train harder and do more and keep going and risk a worse injury or burnout at that point.

10:01.49
steve
How do you think about that and John like you said you like to swing for the fences and if I come at it as an alpinist you know I would like to think for my example, Himalayan trips that I was aiming for a success rate of between 30 and 40% do you think and so if that if I was almost expecting, almost 60% of the time to not do what I set out to do. Do you think? Ah, you’re a data scientist. I mean your problems are clearly logical person. You think this way you think analytically do you have a when you go for these big things. You think that I mean obviously not that many people have completed barkley’s like you got to just realize like hey there’s only a certain amount of chance that this is all going to come together for me today.

10:56.60
John
Yeah I’ve noticed the past few years in general I tend to attempt about 3 of these really big things per year. Whether it’s barkley or a multi-day fkt or something like tor. I am usually successful about one out of those 3 so that fits right along where you are there. It’s a great year if I’m successful 2 out of the 3 and I think everyone’s threshold is different in terms of what can keep them motivated and keep moving forward to me. There’s sort of this goldilocks zone of difficulty where it’s hard enough to remain interesting to you to not be boring but it’s not so hard that you get frustrated and quit. So for me, that’s around where that zone is and I think that the better metric for me rather than looking at percent success is looking at a number of successes. And if I were to have a bunch of smaller goals and every once in a while shoot for the big one, my percent success might go up but the actual number of successes I had would I believe drop significantly.

12:30.73
Alyssa
That makes a lot of sense. That’s actually I think we actually have pretty similar mindsets about that as well and also similar mindsets of the goals that we pick. I’m also kind of in that like tor, dragons back type life where there is a high risk of failure and that’s part of the game and for me actually my racing schedule this year I have 2 100k’s and then dragons back and part of me is itching for something bigger than that of like yes I know I can finish these hundred k’s obviously the placement is kind of the successor failure to it which is a different kind of mental challenge than for me generally it’s more like myself against the just enormity of a tor of a moab 240 and so but I always say like if I get one basically if I get one out of those 3 successes like wow that was a great year two or 2 is even amazing even more because when you pick these huge challenges you really are setting yourself up for the fact that there’s a possibility. They’re not going to work.

13:46.13
Alyssa
So I guess go ahead.

13:47.53
John
Well, the other thing to remember here as well is these things that we’re challenging ourselves with. We’ve chosen the mountains because we love them and the more that we’re passionate about the actual experience and about the process itself rather than it being this binary. Yes, or no I did what I set out to do the more that we can get out of them and the worst case outcome in general if we’re smart about it. I fell short of my goal but I got to get out and enjoy the mountains and learn a lot of great things from that so you know that’s still a success.

14:35.61
steve
Absolutely I think that’s so well put John and we started to I as you were saying that I was like oh yeah I shouldn’t have even brought that up because that’s not actually what I was going for is to make sure I got 1 success in each year for example

14:37.94
Alyssa
Definitely.

14:55.50
steve
It was more that the reason we set these goals was so we make sure that we spend a good chunk of our lives doing these things that we love and that it provides this structure like you know you would none of us would have come up with these objectives like running around moab for 240 miles or the tor for how many miles that is or climbing these remote unnamed or unclimbed peaks because it’s just really an excuse. It’s really a structure to get out there and go out there. Go out there and run and be in the mountains and see those sunrises and be with people that love the same things we love and that’s really what it’s all about great that you brought that up.

15:41.40
John
Yeah, absolutely.

15:45.66
Alyssa
Yeah, so I guess wow we’re going really off script but you’ve been I mean you’ve been successful for quite a bit of time and also through a variety of different I guess we’ll say mediums. Um, thinking like triathlon to marathons to longer distances. How have you managed or what place does running play in these successes or races play as a part of your identity and was there ever a moment where they became too encapsulating of like I’m hanging my hat on what I’m doing or like how have you managed to sit this part of your life in the bigger picture.

16:33.24
John
That’s a great question and that could be, I think, a whole podcast in itself if there were definitely times early on in Barkley my first few attempts there where it got a bit obsessive and consuming in terms of you know I have to finish I’m scared of not finishing. I need to get this done and it was overall the training and the preparation I think was. Ah, not the healthiest approach and had a bit of a negative impact on my life outside of that I’ve largely been driven by curiosity and wanting to see what I’m capable of doing. Wanting to see what these new and different experiences are like getting to explore beautiful, incredible places that I would otherwise not have a chance to see and that has evolved into now. Also being a curiosity but more internally like the things that I learn about myself going out and taking on these challenges and these adventures have played a huge role in other areas of my life whether it be my career or as a father or as a husband they have improved me in significant ways and and one of those in general really is looking back at those early Barkeley attempts and being cognizant of the fact that that was a bit much my approach on that and I now have a much healthier balance in terms of doing these things and my more recent attempts at Barkley and other big efforts have really been a piece of my life that fits in well with the other pieces rather than some you know all consuming pieces that piece that’s trying to knock the other pieces off the board.

18:48.69
Alyssa
Yeah I feel that entirely and actually you’ve already answered what role does curiosity play in your racing and training because and I guess to go further into that because it is I mean I loved seeing the grand round like I said. My husband loves following your career. He was so excited he still thinks that’s one of the most amazing ultra running feats that’s been done and I would agree. So how do you balance? Obviously you’re very good at racing. You’ve done a lot of amazing races. But when you sit down to look at your calendar for the year how do you manage the fkt, the adventure side of things with the racing side of things. It’s something selfish. I’m asking that because I am trying to figure that balance out because I like both of those too and I’m not sure how to navigate it. So I’d love to hear how you manage that within your calendar, within your planning etc.

19:51.65
John
So part of it is looking at having kind of a good ratio but between the 2 of again if I have 3 big things per year I would like for at least one of those to be a big race and at least one of those to be an fkt or like the grand round something I just make up because I’m passionate about it and it sounds fun and you know the the third can can then be a wild card.

20:27.21
John
But I get a lot out of both of those and the fkt type challenges are somewhere where I can fully explore what I’m capable of and I can align it perfectly with my own passions. I can control more of the variables like the start time and and maybe a little bit the weather conditions that I go out in whereas the races allow me to take what I’ve learned from those other challenges and see to to get a better measure of my progress kind of using other people as the measuring stick in those and it’s fun to compete. It’s fun to share those experiences with other people and the final piece of this really is just logistics to be honest, you know we mentioned fitting it into the rest of my life and sometimes there are races that won’t work. You know I had a 50 miler that I was planning for next month and just found out that my daughter has a dancer recital on that day. So that’s I’ll go out and I’ll come up with something else. I didn’t get into western states or hard rock this year like I was hoping I would. I’ll come up with something else and those are those areas in my calendar where if there’s not a big race that I’m excited about and that I get into and that fits into my schedule then I just you know make it up and do something I love when I can do it.

22:10.45
steve
Yeah, it’s so interesting to hear you talk about all of that and you know one of the things John that I just wanted to observe or note that I think the audience will also hear is you have this maturity around your viewpoint on these things that is enviable I think for many people like especially if I go back to my younger self that if I wanted to be good at something I was just would sort of become obsessive about it and you mentioned this. A little while ago like with your early attempts on Barkley where it became sort of this obsession and you said it on balance had a negative impact on your life is it what I believe you said and you know and then I hear you trading a dance recital for a fifty mile or and that are a 50k and that is I think a place where a lot of people want to be but a lot of people also struggle to be can you explain like what gives you that, are you at a point where you always this way were you at a point where you’re just like okay I’ve done enough and I really understand how this all fits in my life. Um or was that always a natural balance for you.

23:35.50
John
And so as an engineer and a data scientist most of what I do are constrained optimization problems and doing that means that I have to accept the constraints I can’t magically have different parameters that I’m working with I have to take those and I have to come up with the best possible solution that I can given the resources and limitations that I have and so my racing and training is much the same way. Sure there are times that I wish I could do more training volume. There are times that I wish I could do more races or different races. But the constraints of my life simply don’t allow that. and so. It’s a matter of making simple goals and then seeing which of those are realistic given the constraints and then after the fact. Evaluating them in the context of what I actually faced and not really evaluating it in terms of the original goal but you know take hardrock last year for example it’s my goal was to try to go sub 24 hours and you know that didn’t work out I got altitude sickness quite bad and was puking at an aid station for 4 hours straight before dragging myself out of there and and eventually recovering and working my way back up the field for a top 10 finish.

25:24.56
John
That wasn’t my original goal at all but looking back at what I faced and the constraints that I had, that’s one of my proudest results that I was able to to deal with those obstacles and deal with those limitations and come away with that.

25:42.15
steve
Yeah I would second that I mean knowing what it feels like to have altitude sickness and to still dig in and find motivation to get back in there and didn’t actually get some time back that’s an accomplishment.

25:43.95
Alyssa
Um, that’s great.

26:00.57
steve
You know that’s not so much about the kind of accomplishment that I find so beautiful in this kind of running and racing and being in the mountains is that it’s not about you know, beating someone else per se. Ah, sure that other people are there and you’re measuring yourself relative to them or whatever and then they motivate you to try a little harder but more than anything what I’m hearing is that you know you’re proud of the struggle and you fought the good fight and that’s something to truly be proud of like that’s to me more proud. Anyone can experience that whether they’re going to hard rock to sub 24 or sub 48 and if they come away with that kind of feeling like what you’re explaining doesn’t matter if they were you know first place or last place they’re going to come away with like a really positive impact from their experience.

26:57.15
John
Yeah, when I was young I was one of those overly annoyingly competitive kids. You know I’d make a competition out of everything.

27:12.75
John
And you know I was the youngest between my brother and my 2 cousins that lived next to us and so you know I was always trying to make these competitions and I was always getting beat because I was 4 and 5 and 6 years younger than everyone else, but I was still incessant about that. And I still have that drive. But my thinking has evolved so much more into looking at these sorts of things as collective efforts that were all out there with the competition serving to propel each other farther forward.

27:51.60
John
And to our own personal limits and eventually to a collective limit where we’re each bumping each other up and you know all the way up to Kilian in a hard rock. It’s driving each other forward and I think my biggest kind of realization moment on that was the back and forth that Damian Hall and I had on the Pennine way record while I was in the UK I went out and broke a 30 year old record and didn’t have the best run but I so snuck in under the wire there and then a week later Damian comes along and beats my time and then I came back the next year and beat his time and I beat it with something that I otherwise if Damian hadn’t have done what he did.

28:46.18
John
I would not have had that goal time. I would absolutely have not run the time that I did and if I hadn’t have initially broken the record he may not have run the time that he did and so it’s this iterative propelling each other forward and Damien is a huge part of my time.

29:05.58
John
And my performance on that and so while we might be striving to beat one another the goal of that is not actually to beat the other person. It’s using it as motivation to reach farther ourselves. Wherever that might end up being whether it’s ahead of or behind that person. You know we reach the goal if it’s pushing us forward.

29:34.51
steve
I love that idea of serving because that’s the spirit that I feel when I’ve been at you know as an observer at Ouray or a hard rock at some of these other Tor I’ve been to Tor and as an observer.

29:36.41
Alyssa
Um, that’s fantastic.

29:54.46
steve
Strictly, but that’s the sense you get from the participants is that this community it’s you know, of course there’s a competition. I’m curious to hear something you said there I want to know more about. How you said you are all sort of serving the competition by participating in it is how I heard that and then how you’re you know, going out for example with Damien and and trading this record and inspiring one another. But at what point do you push yourself like what are you getting right? You just stopped short of saying what it was. You’re driving towards what you’re motivated to go and run a little faster. What is good about running a little faster? What is good about pushing yourself like what is in that kernel.

31:07.61
John
I would be lying if I said there wasn’t a lot of satisfaction in reaching those goals and having those fastest times and those achievements. Ah, but also for me, it has become.

31:21.96
John
Where the biggest return for me and really what makes it worth the investment of my time away from family are the things that achieving those times force me to do and force me to learn about myself in terms of preparation and strategy pushing through the tough times in the races or the the fkt attempts while I’m out there. How do I overcome those obstacles when I’m stripped down to my core and it’s just a matter of moving forward. What are my strengths? What are my weaknesses when really nothing else matters. It’s just me, my bare bones. No distractions, no excuses. What can I do here and I take a lot away from that. By having this sort of what I’ll call an artificial struggle with lessons that then can apply to actual struggles in our life whether it be with our family or health or finances or career or or whatever it might be those are the big values for me that I’m taking away from it.

32:44.67
Alyssa
That’s beautiful. I always say that it’s the opportunity every time I’m reaching for the edge of what I believe my potential is and every time I go out and do something I’m getting a little bit closer to understanding what that means. And so every race it’s like I mean every race. Ah, every opportunity you look back at it and you go I could have done this faster I could have done that transition better and I think that’s the exciting part and I’m sure Steve that you feel that with climbing mountains was like oh I could have you know. We could have done this belay in this area. We could have been faster on this pitch and I think that’s the exciting part is striving for that and that keeps moving further. It’s not stationary and I think that that’s the exciting part and I think that’s the part of all of us. I assume that’s in common that contentment is a difficult if not impossible thing to achieve and we’re not really trying to achieve it but by being slightly discontent. Most of your life that also allows you to do amazing things and actually I guess I’d be curious. I’m saying this but I shouldn’t put words in your mouth. How does contentment play a role in your life? Do you feel content or is there this sense of discontentment that is a driving factor.

34:14.14
John
So I have also always been a perfectionist and a bit stubborn. We can make that sound positive by saying that I’m determined and resilient. But it’s really the same thing. And for me it is a bit odd to love this sport where there’s really no such thing as a perfect outcome. There’s simply too many variables for all of them to be perfect in 1 outing. And so that goes back a lot to kind of analyzing it afterwards and like you say seeing what could I have done better and where and if I’m pretty content that I did most things. And the probability of me doing significantly better is low then I’m happy with that. I move on to something else where there’s a much better chance of getting a good result and a new experience. You know, like again looking at the Pennine way I did my analysis on that after the fact and kind of said you know if I had the perfect drawn conditions were perfect. My training was perfect.

35:47.90
John
I think I could go hours faster but the chances of that like of the conditions being perfect and absolutely nothing going wrong is well and so is it worth it to me to invest that much of a part of my life and that much of my schedule to go back to try to seek marginal returns with a low probability of success and for me the answer on that is no. There are so many other adventures out there to be had. There are so many more things to do and I can get so much more out of turning my focus and attention to something else. And that’s again where kind of these collective efforts and pushes can come back into play. You know Damian went out there this summer and beat my time by 4 hours I’d have to rethink my analysis. I’d have to go back and think well geez how did he do that. How is that possible? Could I actually go faster than I thought I did and you know that that would be an opportunity to rethink that.

37:04.20
John
And all honesty if he went 4 hours faster than my time I’d probably say holy crap. Um, I’m good. He’s got it.

37:12.90
steve
Ah, yeah I want to reflect on something that I heard both of you say in different ways and you know I like the way you said this John that you know you could say that stubborn and determined are different takes on the same trait as you but what I really hear here is that you know this is who you are. You know it doesn’t and we can put labels on it that you’re you know stubborn which might have a negative connotation or determined that might have a positive connotation. But what you’re really doing is standing with both feet on the ground firmly rooted in the reality of who you are and expressing that. And you’re not, you don’t need to make it like actually it’s the opposite. The last thing you ever need to do is make an excuse for that right? I think there are so many people in the world that are not able to do that because they haven’t been shown. But that is possible or that is desirable and in fact I think we’d all be much better off if people did have themselves planted firmly and did know exactly who they were and were unapologetic about it and yeah this may show up as stubborn sometimes I may show up as determined sometimes but this is me and being in these sports whether it’s fkt’s or races helps me express the best version of myself and that’s enough like.

38:49.96
John
Yeah, and that’s absolutely and that’s what I mentioned earlier that these things not only help me learn valuable lessons and discover my strengths but also my weaknesses and for you know example from ultra running I have a very strong awareness of the fact that I tend to allow small problems to just kind of slowly and steadily grow until they become big things that I can no longer ignore and so that’s something that I’m aware of my tendency to do that and because of that I can try to address that and and prevent that as an issue but it’s important when reflecting on any of these things you know looking as far as that contentment goes I look at where I’ve come from and you know, starting off getting back into running. I thought maybe if I train and if I do well enough I can qualify for the Boston Marathon and I’ve since you know blown that goal out of the water and shot way past it and the things I’m doing like I would have told you you were crazy like just absolutely nuts I will not attempt that. If I do attempt it I might die I’m not going to succeed and so having that context again of we’re all everyone has their limits in every area but we’re all capable of so much more than we imagine. Our potential is over a horizon that we can’t even initially see. And so having that context of where I’ve come from and then looking forward to accepting where I am and setting my goals in my future path based on where I am instead of on where I wish I were. And you know maybe I wish that I were perfect and didn’t have these weaknesses and these flaws and these constraints on my life but you know planning a way forward from this spot way over that I wish I were at that’s not going to serve any purpose or be of any value to me.

41:21.89
Alyssa
Yeah I’m curious, going back just a little bit where you said at the beginning of your career and I can relate to this very deeply that you’re very competitive. You went into Barkley. It wasn’t always healthy and now you know you have this back and forth with Damian. Also he’s going to be on the podcast. So like I don’t know if I need to just set up an episode after you know we keep getting better. So I’m curious if there was a shift or where that shift was from this sometimes competitiveness that can be quite a negative on our lives to using it to better the community to better yourself to better your competitor where did that happen. Can you kind of pinpoint a time or is it an evolution like where was that and how did you come to the point you’re at right now.

42:22.28
John
It was a bit of an evolution and I think the evolution was more of it going from words to things that I knew to really truly internalizing that. And the way that I respond to these things both with my actions going forward and and with my emotions you know going back as far as high school cross country. We always said that every single person on the team counts because you know the slowest runner is pushing the next slowest who’s pushing the next slow all the way up to the fastest person on the team and that was those were great things to say but you know if I got beat I was mad I didn’t like it one bit. And so it really was an evolution again of going from this thing that I knew I should feel to something that I actually did feel and a lot of these big efforts that I did in the Uk where I switched from prior to that doing mostly unsupported self-supported things to like the grand round and the Pennine way and my five and a half day Wainwrights.

43:49.90
John
That I did just before I left these were all supported by just massive support crews, people on the roads, people out on the Hills with me and it was just entirely a team effort and a collective. Thing to be able to get to that point with not only having the previous times as benchmarks to shoot for but having the routes laid out and being able to optimize that by having plans on when and where to sleep. Who could specialize in navigating each section like it was. It was entirely a team effort and to feel such a part of that really then extended to the competition and these other you know actual races and other things that I do and recognizing the fact that really all of these are collective efforts to ah, grow and learn and push ourselves as far as we can while in the midst of this just you know enjoying the the opportunity to get out in the mountains and see some beautiful places.

45:01.70
steve
Yeah that’s all great I love all these sentiments. One of the things that I think that our audience will really appreciate John is hearing this come from you of all people saying that you know your goal was to try to qualify for Boston sorry. And then you know I don’t know how many years ago was that.

45:24.30
John
So I started in 2013 I failed twice and then I qualified for Boston yeah in 2014.

45:27.77
steve
Because so yeah, but that’s my point right? Like there’s a lot of people listening to this who can imagine 10 years myself included and you got to really think okay, what.

45:31.31
Alyssa
That’s not that long ago.

45:47.10
steve
You know all too often I think people think I want to run Barkley when what they really need to do is qualify for Boston First for example, like I think that you know and then see how that goes or whatever the the goal is that’s appropriate for them and there are people. One of the things that I’ve noticed with a lot of the successful people that I’ve come to know in my life is that they have this knack for setting goals that are both challenging and attainable and then they just kind of recall continuously recalibrate and this is one of the things I’ve heard from you today that I think is so valuable to our audience is understanding that everybody does that even the people that are at the the best top of the sport.

46:32.36
John
Yeah, it’s I might have a big kind of eventual one day goal but recognize that it’s something that there’s absolutely no chance right now and it’s a matter of choosing intermediate goals that I feel just might be possible like again I might fail but they’re going to force me to reach as as far as I currently possibly can.

46:48.52
steve
Sure.

47:06.85
John
And if I can reach that far then I can pull myself up onto a new step and from there you know, aim for the next one and eventually maybe I’ll get up to that big goal and this in general goes towards this process of even during an individual event.

47:26.84
John
Decomposing it into manageable chunks where we can actually have a plan that our minds can actually comprehend without getting overwhelmed whereas you know like doing Barkley or any of these ultras. Really I’m thinking. Okay got to make it up this next climb in this amount of time and then the next one and then to that checkpoint and I’m never lining up at the starting line and thinking okay I have 60 hours to make it this far like it’s just it’s overwhelming your mind can’t pull in all of that. Everything that it takes all at once. So it’s all in steps and chunks that you can make a realistic plan for.

48:11.78
Alyssa
And that’s such a great point. It’s something I’ve changed a lot of my mindset especially with ultra running and to go back to the longer term plan. It’s why I’m not running toward Tor Des Geants this year because I need like a year to 2 years of growth before I can do tor the way that I want to do it and so I looked at it last year and was like I don’t feel ready for this step yet I want to go back and do it the way that I know I can do it and I know that I need more growth before that can happen. Um, so I totally yeah that makes complete sense. So I guess to tie it in or go ahead.

48:51.92
John
I just got to say that last year was very similar for me. You know with my personality after that big failure in 2021 of course I wanted to turn right back around and take it on again in 2022 but I got into hard rock. And that was also the time that my family and I were moving back from the Uk to the US and so there was just way too much going on to be able to give my best effort and have an effect on the performance that I want to have at tor. So last year I had to set that aside and part of that you know came from the much more unbiased perspective of my coach telling me that that was probably a bit much. But. Ah, yeah, so here we have to wait a year but I’ll be back.

49:54.98
Alyssa
That’s awesome. Well I’m curious now having had this conversation and moving towards the end of it. What made you want to go back to Barkley and how do you feel about your first performance and I hate to compare. But do you feel more satisfied with your second finish than the first and like where have you analyzed hey I could have done this better maybe that could be better and also why did you want to go back for a second time.

50:30.90
John
After I first finished I took a year off. I was crewed for the race, experienced it from a different side and then I wanted to do it again mainly out of curiosity like what would the race be like if I’ve already finished and how would that affect my mindset my ability to push through some of these low points and so I went back in 2019 and the answer. Yeah, it wasn’t good. Yeah.

50:56.79
Alyssa
As I was going to say caveat you have gone back multiple times I shouldn’t say like your second time. But yeah.

51:05.48
John
Well in 2019 I was in the lead after 2 loops and I was cursed with the knowledge of what the later loops would bring and what they would require and I just I quit I didn’t have that mindset and you know after analyzing that and reflecting on it I didn’t want Barkley to end that way and gradually over time again. I developed this good equilibrium where I had the motivation in the fire to to finish but without it consuming my life. I went back last year and unfortunately I had a mishap where I lost the waist belt that I was carrying my pages in and so it ran out of time but eventually circling back to this year where again I had that healthy mindset and my goal whereas in that first and in that 2019 attempt my goal was to find out what it would be like to run the race as a previous finisher in 2019. I found out and then my goal going back this year was to see. Okay now I know what it’s like. Can I still adapt my strategy? Can I still adapt my mindset to be able to finish knowing what I now know and to be able to essentially just will myself forward. For no other reason than I’m telling myself to not have this big shiny alluring goal of becoming a finisher that is helping drive me forward. You know everyone at Barkley to get to finish the race. Everyone is almost entirely intrinsically motivated. But this time I had to be 100%. I’m doing this because it is something that I am willing myself forward to do and that was a huge confidence boost just knowing that I have. Now I have that level of control over my own mind to be able to do that and again that is something that I’m going to hit challenging points in my career and in raising my kids through their teenage years I’m sure and just thinking okay like I’ve done this. I’ve been in this spot. I know how to will myself forward and it’s going to be fine. We’ll come out from this.

53:45.10
steve
I think that this is what I as I listen to you talk about this confidence that you have the will to to do this and how do you see that? How do you experience that for yourself? Is that like kind of always in there and you think it’s locked away and it’s in there for all time is it a more fluid property you have? Do you read? How do you think about that? How do you think about that motivation or that will to move yourself forward as you put it will. Take on these challenges on any level whether it’s parenting or professional or you know you’re touching all these.

54:23.31
John
Um, there’s a bit of that I think is innate in me but getting to what I’m doing now things like a second Barkley finish. There have definitely been things that I’ve learned and the experiences themselves. In terms of building this sort of mental reservoir of things that I can recall of past woe points that I’ve hit and been able to pop out of those of past points where I’ve thought oh this isn’t possible I can’t do this. And then I still managed to make it through like those things gradually build that mental fortitude, build that confidence and grow the number of things that you can tell yourself when you know one part of your mind is saying no quit you can’t do it. It’s not worth it and you’re able to bring up a memory of oh yeah, you remember the last time you told me this and we still made it through so no I’m fine and I’ve also learned to focus a lot on what has gone into it.

55:49.57
John
And relatively speaking how little is left like when you show up at the start line of a race. You’re almost at the finish line really when you think of all the effort that’s gone into preparing all of the training. Ah, the things that both you and your supporters have put into this and you know I’m out there on a 60 hour event and hit a low point a day and a half into it and think to myself. Not. Geez. There’s 24 hours left. How can I possibly make it 24 hours but instead frame that as I’ve really been at this for months like if not longer what is another 24 hours that’s nothing that’s just just finish it.. Step across the line and it’s done and all of that pays off.

56:46.75
Alyssa
And you never get that you never get that 24 hours back you’ll never get to experience that moment in that race like that ever again and so I did this after a three hundred and fifty mile fkt attempt I had about so.

56:47.25
steve
Yeah I love the way you think about that.

57:06.70
Alyssa
Six miles and I was not moving fast. I had about 2 hours and I went with a great friend. I told him if I ever made it this far that he had to run the last six miles with me and I just went to embrace this love this part because this is so special. Don’t wish it away just to be finished. Embrace and be in this moment because you don’t get to do this again. It will never be like this.

57:30.41
John
Yeah, absolutely and that’s you know it’s very very hard to have the mental focus and clarity to think of this in the moment but always kind of thinking of if I quit you know I’m not a death before dnf guy by any means we spent the first part of this talking about my bout with rhabdo and how happy I was that I quit in those circumstances but trying to really process things and think of you know if I quit now what will me in one week think about that decision am I going to be happy with that or am I going to seriously regret that and it’s again, it’s very difficult to do that. But that’s something that I always try to do. When I’m at low points and that’s again something we’re having those prior experiences and I can remember hey you remember that other time you quit and how mad you were with yourself after that you don’t want to do that again.

58:40.29
steve
If I may share a way I’ve come to think about this and being the oldest of the group here I think that I originally constructed this around alpinism. But I think it’s very much the same for these events.

58:40.71
Alyssa
Um, yeah, yep.

58:59.74
steve
You both do and it’s when you let’s say you know it doesn’t have to be the start line but in the beginning before the big challenge. You’re sort of let’s say the start line. You’re at the start line and you kind of put yourself under this spell. It’s like you have this magical thinking right? You don’t really fully understand what all it’s going to take out of you or how low those low points are going to be or how painful it’s going to be or you’re going to get altitude sickness or not or have gi issues or not or whatever the challenges may be. The magical thinking is that none of that is going to happen. You’re going to run your perfect race or have your perfect event. You always start that way and then when the challenge happens I think of it as like a graph and you know you start up here in the middle and then it drops down and you’re at the bottom.

59:56.00
steve
And when you’re at the bottom and it’s really the worst. That’s the point at which you either quit or you don’t quit right? And if you here’s the interesting thing though if you quit okay, you dnf like you talked about and then you have this or in climbing you descend or bail or whatever when it comes time to do that again. You don’t start at the bottom again like the next race. You don’t line up and you’re not at the bottom, you’re back in the magical thinking place and it resets every time and I think that’s so wonderful about humans that we can do that you know we can.
We’re so resilient in that way and this can truly be expressed in other parts of our lives which is a theme that you’ve brought up a number of times John which I really ah appreciate and I really hope that other people share I’ve certainly leaned a lot on my experiences in the mountains in other parts of my life that’s for sure the other part of it is if you’re at that bottom and you don’t quit. You know what? Tell me I’d love to hear a story about a time when you were at that bottom. And you didn’t quit because that’s its own experience and typically in what I see and what I hear from these stories is what you do when you don’t quit. It’s as soon as you realize it. It’s at the bottom and you’re not going to quit. It gets better. And whether that’s that mental trick of forecasting you know your future self from a week from now what you’re going to think of having you know, exited the race or the whatever other magic trick you pull out to kind of justify that at the time or if you don’t like then it’s over like that’s the worst part and you’ve moved past it and this is so true of like almost every kind of challenge I find not just these physical ones. But entrepreneurial ones, professional ones, relationships all these things right.

01:02:06.38
John
Yeah, absolutely and that if you know me, it’s all of these things that are almost like a game of chess.

01:02:18.84
John
And you start each game with the board in exactly the same position as that nice high point where everything’s perfect and for me I have my plan which is what I am going to do the things I can control the things that I want to do and then I have my preparations which is envisioning all of the different scenarios that I can find myself in and what do I do in those scenarios. And once I have those preparations I stop worrying about the scenarios because I can’t control whether or not they happen. But once I’m there I instinctively know what to do. I don’t have to think about it, I don’t have to worry about one of those. Preparations for those who owe points you asked for a specific example. I mean the one at hard rock last year is probably the best and the most poignant where I know was moving pretty well and was top 5 for the first half of the race and then started to struggle went over the the highest peak and just every few steps just you know doubled over and hurling and retching and made my way down to the aid station and just.

01:03:39.20
John
I couldn’t even put water to my lips without you know, just out of control vomiting or you know dry heaving at the least and it was. It was bad and I had to recognize again that I’ve been there before.

01:03:58.96
John
Another example is Barkley this year I started to struggle on just the second loop on that night loop I just was cold. My stomach got out of whack. I wasn’t getting calories down, I wasn’t moving fast and I’ve basically just latched on to the people I was with and hung on and knowing that if I could just do that if I could just get to the other side I would would be okay and so a big part of that is not just recalling those prior experiences but again accepting where I am not. To not try to move forward based on where I wish I were at you know I could be sitting there at the burroughs aid station at hard rock thinking. Well I wish I was still in the top 5 and you know with 24 hours within reach and. What good would that do for me like that wasn’t realistic at that point and so I’m adjusting my goals. I’m adjusting my strategy on the fly where I try to keep it moment to moment, something that is again just out of my reach, something that is going to keep me. Motivated to go forward that I see as possible that I can convince myself as possible and so as I’m sitting there at that station puking and resting and generally unable to move with a splitting headache and everything else that comes along with it. My goals are gradually dropping. You know well may I can hold on to top 10 that’ll get me going again and then well you know. 30 hours that’s good that’s a great goal that’s you know, not many people make it under that at hard rock and eventually you know I’m dozing in and off I don’t know how many people have even passed me at this point and I think I can probably still get top 25 and that’s you know I dropped to that point and eventually my friend Stephanie Case came through and we have had a bit of a running joke that I had the the curse of case that anytime we were at the same race I didn’t have a stellar result many of them dnfed and so she came through this no, not again and you know that got me going again and I didn’t want to didn’t want her to also carry that joke on so I got up and started moving with her and eventually my goals started creeping back up again to just a carrot on a stick really, that’s what it is and I started to move I started to be able to get fluids and a bit of calories down and and progressively got to the point where I made the last well second to last big climb and started to pick it up and started to legitimately run and then I started to see people in front of me and started to think. Okay, how can I catch up to that person? I can pick that person up and again just progressive motivation. And eventually my goals crept all the way back up to I can get back in the top 10. Let’s do this. Let’s go and and I made it back into that position I think I had dropped to around twenty fifth in my time at the aid station and coming away from that you know again up. Um, I’m thrilled with that and that then goes these things build on top of each other that goes right into my reservoir right into my set of memories that I recall when I hit those points again in the future.

01:07:55.40
steve
Yeah, absolutely that’s a great story of not and I think that you know one of the things that I hear you saying that is so relatable. I’m sure for so many of our listeners and for myself as well as you know you are staying planted and present in the for lack of a better word I want to say suffering but really let’s just call it experience because suffering has a bit of a negative connotation and I think that’s what you were saying Alyssa with those last six miles . You know this is what you signed up for. We used to make jokes about that in alpinism when we were really suffering. It’s like you know, kind of like hey this is the part you came for this is what you showed up for this is the part you really like because this is what it’s actually all about is getting into that state and getting to know yourself. Right? And getting to know climbing partners but you know ultra running has its own community like your rapport with Stephanie and that story is amazing and this is not just something for her you to help hold on to actually it’s also I’m sure she’s going to carry that. Into the future of the rest of her life. Whatever experiences she may have like that time that she came into that station and John was like you know, laid out and then pulled it back together and got up and she will also that became part of her story too. So I think that you know all of this just speaks volumes about how beautiful these experiences are that that we all seek out in the mountains whether it’s running or climbing or skiing or whatever and these are the issues I love how this interview has unfolded how this discussion has unfolded because like this is my happy place where I get to talk about like what we learn and what we feel and what we experience and how we share it and those things because. And the reason that’s my happy place is because that’s the part that’s human and that’s the part that everyone experiences no matter whether they’re top 10 or bottom 10 right? Like they’re having some version of this experience for themselves and everybody’s got what you call your engineering problems? Constrained optimization I love that term. Going to remember that because everything is a constrained optimization problem literally everything like.

01:10:19.53
John
Yeah, constrained optimization.

01:10:33.78
steve
You know that’s what we do. It’s staying planted in reality like business. You know running, climbing mountains like you know you can only produce so much power at twenty six thousand feet in a human body or at thirteen Thousand feet and or at sixteen feet and so you know that’s an optimization constraint optimization problem too. So it’s great. It’s a great viewpoint on all of this. I really think that there’s a lot of great lessons in this.

01:11:09.20
John
I do have to quickly in case Stephanie does listen have to apologize to her again. I don’t know if she’ll remember it as quite as positive and an experience when she came into the aid station also not feeling well. And I saw her staggering and just kind of instinctively said. Ah, oh yeah, me too and and held up my barf bag that I’d been clutching for 4 hours. I don’t think that helped her situation. But she she got out of there and and had a good finish as well and I like what you said I don’t think that’s it’s not something I’ve fully framed it as myself before but I’ll definitely remember now is thinking that you know again, this is what you came for like the goal is to reach this point. Because that is where the growth and the learning truly happens and so if I don’t embrace and push through this experience then you know it wasn’t worth it. I did all of this and invested the time into preparing and into traveling to and doing this far and in the race and and if I don’t embrace this experience then it doesn’t return that value to me.

01:12:32.51
steve
So true.

01:12:33.21
Alyssa
And I’ve always disliked the start of races. I like the meat like the middle and the end of races because I always feel like that’s where I learned the most. That’s what I came for is that part of it. But. John, thank you so much for this. We did not follow the script at all, which has been awesome. It’s been such an incredible conversation and I want to respect your time because we’re right up against the edge of it. But is there a place people can find you? I know you have an amazing website but I’d love to be able to connect people to um, the best platforms to see what you’re up to.

01:13:14.93
John
Right? And you know I mainly view scripted questions as the backup and in case things aren’t going well with a nice fluid conversation. So I think we did great there and as you mentioned I’ve got a blog at raindemforestrunner.com which is a play on words between my data science career my running career Random Forest is an algorithm that I use in my work and I enjoy yeah, enjoy running through random forests and I don’t get to post outside of race reports. Ah I don’t get to post there as much as I used to and as much as I would like.

01:13:39.45
Alyssa
You answer my question.

01:13:52.81
John
Hopefully at some point I’ll get back to that. But there are also links to my social media. I’m currently running through a series of posts giving some of these discrete lessons that I’ve learned from doing hard things there.

01:14:08.89
Alyssa
Excellent.

01:14:09.60
steve
Great. Oh definitely send some people your way because you’ve got lots of great lessons to share.

01:14:18.76
John
Thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed this.

01:14:31.50
Alyssa
Hey if you like this podcast you can rate review or subscribe all right if you enjoyed this podcast which I can’t imagine you didn’t. Please rate review and subscribe to the Uphill Athlete Podcast

01:14:51.17
steve
Thank you Alyssa and thank you John for bringing yourselves your experience being vulnerable with me opening up and sharing all this amazing wisdom or really enjoyed this conversation. It’s not just one but a community. Together we are uphill athlete.