Endurance and Enlightenment on Everest

Steve: two days after you came down from the summit of Everest you wrote to our the group chat that you had included me in on there’s around a hundred people and you wrote I summited Friday at 4 48 in the morning I haven’t gotten on this chat because I’m still trying to understand what exactly happened those four hours before the summit at this point my conclusion is that Everest is not a mountain, it is something else. You summited early on Friday morning, you went silent for two days. I want to start there before anything else. What were you doing with those two days? What was going on in your mind, in your thoughts?

Rene: that experience I was posting regular updates so it was once a day I would basically text through my Garmin inReach and my partner would post those updates on the WhatsApp chat and people were following it so it was a little strange that I had summited and not posted anything for two days I was trying to understand just what the heck I had experienced you know because there was something that happened on that summit reach that But even two months later, it was like magic. There’s something up there that was very, very, I’m tearing up thinking about it, very different.

Steve: Yeah.

Rene: And I took two days out to just really think about whether that, you know whether I had somehow like missed experience I was just trying to piece together what was it and that’s why I sent that message you know it was two days later it was so strange that someone would not be like hey I climbed Everest when I got off the mountain I talked to our lead guide this guy called Dave Watson and I said hey Dave I’ve got to talk to you and he says yeah what’s up and i said no no i i got to talk to you so we went to the bar and we sat down and you know i’ve been training for 18 months so it was like the first whiskey i had in a long time and i was like dave i had experienced this kind of magical like buzzing sort of like like whoa whoa whoa whoa and i got stronger started about 8600 meters it got stronger and I was talking about 8,750. I was just like, what is going on? You know, like it was very subtle at first, but then like 8,750, it was an oncoming train. I mean, you know, it was just, you know, and being surrounded by these people worshiping this kind of summit and seeing those oxygen masks. I mean, there was just something very, very deeply spiritual or otherworldly or religious or whatever you want to call it. It was really just a life-changing experience. The guy that sold me a ticket said it would be life-changing, and it really was.

Steve: Take me through that morning a little bit. Like start maybe with your, with high camp.

Rene: So we all pray to the church of Steve House,

Steve: Thank you.

Rene: you know it’s really I wrote that in one of my updates um the thing is that the the before I kind of take you the update I gotta tell you that you know I’ve I’ve worked with your company for five and a half years I came to you guys I have never been an athlete you know I ran a marathon 18-15 years ago and that was basically it that was the extent of my you know athletic prowess I was probably one of the out of the 470 or whatever it was climbers this year I estimate that I must have been in the top 20, 30 fittest people on that mountain it is an absolute game changer when you’ve got this like infinite well of just pure nuclear power it doesn’t run out it’s just whatever you need to throw at it whatever that like if you’re stressed if you’re late if you need to overtake if you need to eat if you need to like what there’s a problem with the regulator you know there’s like whatever it is you’ve just got this like infinite resource you can throw at it you know it’s just like a complete game changer so the reason that I say this, right? And, and I, and I realized we’re on a podcast, you know, run by you and it’s some sort of a cheap plug because like, I’ve gone through a real journey with you guys. You know, I’ve really like learned, learned a lot, you know, and it, it’s not, it’s not like you read a half page. There’s like five bullet points and you go apply it. There’s a system to it and learning how to tweak your body and tune it to train, you know, is I think the thing that I learned with you guys. And so that’s, I think, the first part because that’s what sort of, I think, explains some of my experiences on this climb.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Rene: You know, I think you’ve got getting to Camp Four, which is a high camp that’s sort of in the quote death zone, was one of the absolute best days of my life. Not even best climbing days. You know, I was like, you know, this is going from I think 7,600 to 8,000, something like that, plus minus. And I was exploding with energy. Like I must have overtaken like 30 people on the way up and I wasn’t even trying. you know i was probably you know 150 meters you know 450 feet above our team you know waving back at them i was dancing you know normally you’re sort of exhausted and stuff i was like i was just like this is absolutely incredible like i am having like i’m getting goosebumps thinking about it you know i i’m having the time of my life you know i’m looking up at Everest. I’m looking at the west of Kuhn. There’s this incredibly majestic, huge valley unfolding beneath me as you go up. The views get better and better. I was listening to some music. It was awesome. Awesome. It was just like you’re driving like a Ferrari and everyone’s in a Toyota Corolla or something. It was overtaking. There’s two lines. It was really easy. You just clip to the other line overtaking you know i i lapped my sherpa a few times i kind of as we were climbing bumped into him and obviously you know i made it very clear to him like for me he was the boss you know so i wasn’t going to be telling him what to do but at some point i was like hey like you you might consider you know bumping up your oxygen and you know because he just he was and then and then it’s funny kind of the third or fourth time i sort of nudged him by accident he so turned around he’s like you know what just crank it up you know and he cranked it up to two and and i was like yeah i thought i thought it would make sense you know but it was it was clear he’s not used to that you know so that’s that’s getting to camp four right and and what came before it you know and you know i i entered camp four like look i was tired you know in a way in a way in a way in a way in a way in a way in a way in a way in a way in a way Probably because I was dancing and singing to myself and doing stupid shit. But it was freaking awesome. I mean, that entry, again, goosebumps. You’ve read about it. You’ve seen it on the internet. The fabled, famed Camp 4 on Everest. And we entered the South Coal. That’s right. Super windy. Trash everywhere. That’s the funny thing, right? I’m just like, I don’t know what there’s trash everywhere. you know i i was like like a kid in a candy shop like i i was like grabbing my oxygen tank wandering around taking photos like talking to people you know like there’s this kind of stress this undertone in the air you know and i was like trying to like listen to it but at the same time like i i didn’t have oxygen on in the tent at 8 000 meters you know and um you know i i you know I wouldn’t have it on for 30, 40 minutes. And then I’d put it back on, wouldn’t have it on, you know, do it for an hour and take it off. Like I was pretty okay. You know, I was not in any kind of like discomfort or pain or anything. I was, I was doing great. And then basically, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the ascent, right. And so fortunately I had spilled water in my, my down suit. And so that, that was an issue that I was dealing with a lot. Like, you know, my sort of crotch, groin area, stomach was sort of soaking wet. So I was like, oh, shit. Like this is, you know, down suit doesn’t insulate thermally when it’s wet.

Steve: down in water to not yeah

Rene: So I was just like, oh, this is not going to be good. And I was freaked out. I was freaked out about this water, right? Very freaked out, like panicking, like kind of like shaking, like, oh my God, like am I, you know, going to suffer frostbite or whatever. And yet again, like for the, you know, hundredth time on this expedition, right? Just an infinite wall of this energy, you know? So it’s funny, I got to the climb, clipped in, we’re behind some team that was like huffing and puffing. And I was in zone one. I was in like, I’m going for a walk in the park. This was, and I was like, do I want to overtake them or not? Or yes. And I thought to myself, you know what? I got enough going on with this water thing. I need to dry out my suit. I’m kind of like panicky. So I kind of used it for that. So I kind of, you know, follow this team at what I thought was a snail’s pace. You know, like it was almost to the point where it was like, I might need to speed up just to warm up, you know. And we got to the balcony, right? At that point, it was two hours later or something. And I had the down suit of dried, you know, and I was just like, hell yeah. And then we climbed from the balcony up, you know, And it’s just like, you know, what I’ve learned with you guys is to almost like shift gears. Like this is zone one. I know what that means. I know how far that would get me. Let’s not flip to zone two. You know, and that was sort of like the next stage of it. I needed to overtake a few people, flip it to zone three. And I know how long I can stay in zone three, what that really means, what I need for recovery. so I had to overtake them, kind of wait a little bit, right? And then sort of keep going, you know. And then we got to the summit ridge, and that’s where, like, it just – I don’t know what happened, man. Like, it was just this incredible, incredible, incredible experience. I mean, it was really, like – and it’s funny. It’s been now – what is it? Almost – it’s been two months, you know.

Steve: Two minutes, yeah.

Rene: And I kept wondering, will it fade? Will it not? It’s something that I think I’ll carry for the rest of my life, as they’ve pointed out to me. It’s really changed my… I’m just much more relaxed. I’ve got this incredible thing, this magic potion that I’m processing. Even walking on the street in the day is a little bit different. I’m like, wow, I’m just so grateful. I’m so grateful that the planet offers is this kind of an experience and I got to experience it, you know? Yeah.

Steve: Yeah. Yeah. I want to, like, ask you about some of the other things that you said, because I want to kind of, you know, you and I have been on our own journey of friendship over the last, you know, five and a half years. And we’ve had a lot of side conversations and we’ve met in person and we’ve had a lot of great discussions. One thing that you said is you wrote, mountaineering is a lot about waiting, waiting for the weather, waiting for the ice to shift, waiting for climbers that are less fit, waiting for climbers that are fitter, waiting for the supply chain to catch up it’s always humbling it’s always educational the part of that that threw me was the and i want to dig into is waiting for the supply chain to catch up that’s not a typical climber sentence where did you learn to see a mountain that way where did this kind of systems thinking that that implies come from

Rene: Well, I did my PhD at Stanford in artificial intelligence applications for construction. And so I found out a company that does AI applications for construction, so large-scale optimization operations research problems. I found out a company that does AI optimization for construction, large-scale construction projects. And so I manage a team of 74 people today, but that’s varied. And I think for me, you know, seeing the operation that Lucas had set up on this mountain was just kind of mind blowing. You know, I mean, to me, it was just I don’t get it. You know, like there was people on that mountain like, you know, complaining about like, oh, I don’t have this type of food or like I need to summon on this specific day because it’s my wife’s birthday. or like and you’re just like hey this is a really really dangerous activity you know the fact that lucas has figured out how to make it a little bit you know like safer you know and and almost luxurious i i think right like doesn’t mean that it sort of changes the underlying tone of it you know and so for me seeing how you know he he was you know had to deal with all these you know 100 people, 100-something people, all these logistics on the mountain and seeing that come together and understanding we’re waiting. We’re waiting for a list to open up. We’re waiting for these things. You got to get the auction. 72 Sherpas, a train of people shuffling all back and forth, up and down this thing. It takes an incredible amount of infrastructure to put somebody up there, not just to put someone up there, but to put them up with enough of a buffer such that I could experience what I experienced. You know, and there’s two sides of the puzzle. Like one is the training I did with you guys. And I think I really, really, you know, like we can talk about metrics and numbers and all this kind of stuff, right? Really like was extremely fit. And then the other side, the, you know, the sort of operation that Lucas, you know, is running up there. And it’s funny. I mean, people ask me and I’m like, Everest is quite doable. It really is, but it’s doable on two conditions. The first is you’ve got to be incredibly fit. And Lucas said, and I asked him, hey, do other people have this sort of magical, almost like cathedralic experience? And he’s like, yeah, usually about a third, the top third fittest people that we take up there. And that fitness, I think, enables you to not be just struggling on, you know, surviving and putting the next one in front of the other, you know. So that’s one. And the other is having that sort of infrastructure that he’s got this unlimited oxygen, two Sherpas per climber. You know, those things are just unavailable elsewhere. You know, the photo I have of the oxygen, you know, reserves at Camp 4 at 8,000 meters, I mean, there must be 200 bottles up there, you know, which is just insane, you know.

Steve: Yeah, the logistics of it. But I think it goes deeper than that, Renee. From what I know about you, and correct me if I’m wrong, I may have some of my facts wrong, but you were born to a Czech mother and a Lebanese father who was studying engineering in Prague. You guys moved back to Beirut when you were very young, plopped right down into the middle of a war zone. I’ve heard you talk about that, how you were consistently being bombed the first five, six years of your life. Czechoslovakia at that time was a different place than it is now. you then got into construction like you know as you know besides you know doing a lot of math as you once told me uh in your in your kind of student years you got into construction you ended up 22 years old in Kabul with a runway that 30% of the country’s air traffic depended on that had a hole from an RPG in the middle of it and you were in charge of fixing it. Like this is kind of, you know, this way of seeing the world and coming at the world from a place where there was, let’s just war destruction and switching that into a place where you’re like a builder in the most literal sense of the word you know and not just on a small scale on a massive scale how did that like what did what did those early years teach you and how did that shape you and how does that translate into how you see the mountains and have these experiences

Rene: Yeah, I think. So first, thanks for outing me, I guess. I don’t usually share that much about the story, but happy to do so. I think that the experiences I had in my childhood really got me to think about ones with mortality. And some people that know me are like, oh, you’re some sort of an adrenaline junkie or an adventure seeker or whatever. And interestingly enough, I don’t think so at all. You know, I am extremely risk averse. You know, I don’t drive motorbikes. You know, if I’m in a park or something or a friend’s house and I see a trampoline, I’m like, hell no. You know, like I avoid trampolines, I avoid motorbikes. I like the thing at the same time is that like before I know the statistics inside out. I know the statistics for most of the 8,000 meter mountains. What are the fatality rates on them? I know the statistics on Rainier. I know the statistics on Everest. I know the statistics for every mountain I’ve ever done. I know what those statistics are. And for anybody listening to us, also I know the statistics are guided and unguided. And FYI, the numbers are usually like 10x or 100x worse for unguided expeditions. And so I think I have a special relationship with risk in the sense that I, before doing any of these expeditions, I spent a phenomenal amount of time thinking about, you know, is this what my soul needs? Is this what I need? Is this what I want? You know, and I think the conclusion I came to in Afghanistan, which was such a strange decision at the time, but I spent eight months thinking about whether I want to go to Afghanistan. Really every day, one hour, two hours, three hours for eight months. And I was like, you know what? This is it. This is what I want to do with my life. and for something like you know denali i mean i probably spent four or five months thinking about that you know and for everest you know i think it was not every day but probably a process of about six months instead of flipping around my head and i took a whole day i’m talking like it was eight hours by myself i was on vacation with a group of friends i said hey guys i i really need to do some work today and the work was i just sat by a pool for eight hours thinking about do I want to do this? And, you know, when you look at the numbers, right, on the one hand, it’s 1.7%. On the other hand, take a look at who’s actually passing away on that mountain. And I saw it firsthand. It’s folks that have spent half the amount that we spent have maybe one or two oxygen tanks past Camp 4 where I’ve got unlimited effectively or 10 that are with us and access to another 20 if I need it. you know and you start to see that like my calculation is that Everest’s fatality rate if you’ve got the training and the gear and the setup and everything else is probably in the you know one in three four thousand you know and that’s starting to be like your chance of getting hit by lightning in the course of your lifetime is one in fifteen thousand you know so risks in the I generally take risks in the one in ten thousand range you know those are like pretty safe activities you know so when you look at something like this like am i willing to slightly increase the risk from one in ten thousand one in three four thousand you know in order to get this life-changing experience that really has focaled me or been the focal point and driven me and taught me so much about myself like the training you know i mean i five and a half years for you know i trained for denali and i for a whole season. It wasn’t forever. It was like nine months of just doing nothing else for training for this one. And is this the right exchange? And the truth was, yeah, it was. And now that I’ve done it, I mean, I’m like, oh my God, it was so amazingly, such an amazing experience, but also I’m really proud of the way that it was executed. The amount of time and discipline that went into it and went into selecting the company

Steve: Thank you.

Rene: and when to selecting, you know, putting this whole thing together, you know, which is why on the summit ridge, I just, like I had so much buffer that I was highly aware of, able to look around and like I wasn’t maxed out by any means of that.

Steve: When you say that Afghanistan taught you or made you think about mortality, did it make it clear that there is real risk of being killed and life ending? Or was it more like it was helping that you were able to figure out where your tolerances were or are and and say, okay, yeah, like this one in 10,000 is generally, you know, just putting numbers that you sent to it, but, and that occasionally I can dial it up this way, or what is that? Like, what is that? What do you mean by that? What did that experience teach you or bring you?

Rene: you’d have to go back to, this is a, you know, now a deeply philosophical discussion. And I actually think most mountain conversations are deeply philosophical.

Steve: Absolutely.

Rene: You know, you know, I, I, I really, interestingly enough, I’ve not met that many people that want to do it just to kind of pound their, their chest on the top, you know, cause it’s so humbling. It kicks your ass so badly. Like, you know, you, you, you really kind of learn a lot about yourself. But to answer your question, I think I went to Afghanistan to answer a question. And that question was, can you truly be the master of something you can’t bear to lose? And I went there to really answer that, what is the value of human life? That’s what I was trying to figure out at 22. And I think what I learned there was sort of two important things. One is that for me, these are all very personal things, But for me, what I learned was I, the conclusion I came to was, I don’t think one, i.e. myself, should live life being so afraid to die that you can’t trade it in for anything. Because that makes life, you know, in my sense of almost a little bit unbearable, because at some point you will need to face it. Whether it will happen in your 50s, your 60s, your 70s, your 80s, like at some point, you will need to face that that is the eventuality that’s on the table. at the same time I realized that one shouldn’t gamble their life on a whim you know so like just kind of like oh let’s just take a risk and it’ll be fun I don’t think that’s something that’s worth losing your life for right on some level when I looked at this Everest thing like sure you know all the the training and the safety and you know I think you and Lucas are best in the world of what you do, that, you know, enabled a substantial safety buffer. But anytime I go into the mountains, I’m like, hey, you know, like some, you know, it’s not, it’s not walking in the park. It’s not, you know, like your former climbing partner says, it’s not playing tennis, you know. So, so, I mean, I think that for me realizing, you know what is life worth trading for or or even like at what what is what is worth putting my life at risk in some ways and how much risk do i want to put it into right and so for me when you look at statistics like k2 or it’s one in three people like truth that’s like incredibly outside my risk tolerance you know it’s it’s it’s so out of my risk tolerance like i i’m and that’s i think

Steve: Yeah.

Rene: things that like are incredibly dangerous you know or dangerous you know like horse riding for example right is a good example right um that people are skiing actually is a lot more dangerous than people you know realize right and at the same time you’ve got things like skydiving are probably a little bit safer than people think of you know and we’re just bad at it you know and the same you know you know an expedition to k2 versus everest like it’s not the same ballpark this isn’t like 20 riskier this is you know like a hundred percent hundred times riskier and so that’s to me like the the approach i have with mountains and what i do and it’s even funny right i mean people keep asking what’s next what’s next and i find the question confusing i’m still processing this experience it might take me a year or two or three like Afghanistan took me two and a half years I got back and I was like I just got to process. And I literally, I halted everything. I wasn’t a runner. I wasn’t doing hobbies. I literally was just like, hey, I need to process what happened. It’s very similar with Everest, you know, I think. But in almost this like magical kind of, you know, tears in my eyes, like I’m so grateful I got to do this. Like what an amazing experience way. It’s really just amazing. So I think like to sort of summarize what I said, To me, what I learned in Afghanistan is that for me, one shouldn’t live your life where you can’t lose it under all circumstances no matter what. At some point, you will need to face that eventuality. And also, your life is extremely valuable. It’s the most valuable thing you’ll ever own. And sort of gambling on a whim, we’re just like, who cares, let’s just jump out of an airplane or go base jump. Like, is the thing that you’re getting out of this experience of equal worth, of equal value? And for me, you know, this kind of an expedition to like Denali or Everest, like that’s just like, it’s such a dream. You know, I mean, I literally, like I was on an airplane, I started literally crying with tears rolling down my cheek, just remembering Denali and what that experience meant. So really, we just very cherished and continue to cherish these experiences I’ve had.

Steve: Yeah. I just hear so much of what you’re saying and thoughts and feelings and words I’ve said in the past. Like there’s experiences I had in the mountains 30 years ago that still bring tears to my eyes if I sit with them. You know, that never goes away. So just I don’t know if that’s frightening or reassuring, but I do think you carry that for your lifetime. you’ve touched a little bit on, you know, your background in mathematics. You’ve brought up statistics. Obviously, that’s something that you spend an enormous amount of time and became very, very good at. and you’ve had these very i don’t know what to call them like in a like repairing runways in afghanistan like that’s sort of like you know trying to run a diesel generator you told me this story once i don’t know if you’re you know you told me the story of like you had this diesel generator in Afghanistan, but none of the fuel in Afghanistan was water-free. So you had to design a system to, you had to, yeah, to, so, I mean, this is like, you know, your first principles

Rene: We had to build our own gas station. Yeah. In order to run a generator so I could turn on a computer and work. Yeah.

Steve: thinking, right? Like you need the computer, but there’s no electricity. Why is there no electricity? but because it comes from a generator why is the generator not running because there’s water in the diesel well how do we get the water out of the diesel like like that’s

Rene: Well, I mean, I was like, are you literally telling me that there’s no water-free diesel in the country of Afghanistan? And the look I got was like, what are you, an idiot? Like, obviously that’s the case. So I was like, okay, so three hours later, we’re designing our own gas station that has water-free diesel so we can pump our own generators. Yeah.

Steve: yeah so there’s a there’s a really interesting connection i think between these kinds of like very hands-on problem solving systems thinking and you you talked about like the the system that a pilathlete has built or the system that fuhrtmach has built to help people climb everest what is and then you yourself have built this this company around this, I mean, what started as kind of an algorithm, right? But it’s now a very complex set of, yeah, I don’t even know how to describe it, code, let’s just say, that can solve problems at scale that have a lot of value to people. There’s a really interesting connection between those two things. And I think that this is one of the things where a lot of people who are drawn to the mounds or endurance sports in general and are successful and especially are successful over a long period and i want to get to kind of your trajectory in a minute there how did that how does that connection manifest in yourself like are these did this does in hindsight does this all feel sort of inevitable to you that you’re just like putting together different parts of your personality and how you’re going to manifest in the world if you for lack of a better word as as renee morcos and it’s it involves all these different you know parts of you and then that results in these experiences and these the the you know building help me understand that

Rene: It’s a really sort of good question, kind of a deep question.

Steve: absolutely yeah and it’s and it’s a genuine question renee because it’s something like that i i see the patterns but i don’t i don’t have the answers that’s why i’m asking you the question i don’t i can’t answer it for you like how does that work

Rene: Yeah, I think for me, yeah, it’s again a philosophical question, you know, And I think the gustibus non as disputandum in Latin, which means of taste you shall not dispute. And I often say that the beautiful thing about flaws of peace is they’re all right. The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, the meaning of life is 42. The reason it’s 42 is it’s the ASCII code to the asterisks. It’s anything you want. and so um to me when when i look look at my life to why would you not want to paint a masterpiece why would you not want to see what’s on the other side why would you not want to have this experience of climbing everest and there’s unfortunately a category of people that have that thought in there it’s like oh i’m just gonna like show up at this mountain like waltz up it you know and that ends very, very badly. And I’ve seen it live, even on this expedition. But the concept of doing the research to find the people that are some of the best in the world, right? You can’t say who’s the best, but some of the best in the world at what they do and learning from them, applying yourself to unlocking this system effectively, you know which in this case you know that really is a method to the map more than a method to the madness you know it’s a very fine-tuned you know way to do it you know both between you know your training systems and furtunbach’s uh sort of expedition right like those are things that that But I think those are things that I really like unlocking or learning. And so I think when you say first principles, I think there’s kind of, to me, it’s more of a question of, what do you want to do with your life? And what I’ve learned, it’s kind of that Steve Jobs quote, right? You sort of learn at some point that the world is created by people that are no smarter than you. You can kind of build anything you want. And that’s kind of, I think, part of what motivates us. And the other part is like, I want to see, you know, like what is it like being an athlete? You know, what is it like to train for like climbing these, you know, major expeditions, you know? And like, what an incredible, you know, half decade, you know, seven years of my life, you know, to dedicate to something like that, to like answer that question, you know? And yeah, I don’t know. Like that has never changed. It’s been the same pattern. it’s just as I’ve gotten older, that the thing I’m trying to figure out has gotten bigger, you know, like at this point it’s the biggest mountain in the world. And it was, it was phenomenal, you know, like that whole process of like unlocking it, you know, and like, that’s the thing that kind of makes me happy. It wasn’t like I just climbed it, like I didn’t summit this thing and go home to like, kind of, but just barely making it like, no, I had 30% of the tank. I was having a time of my life up there. It was awesome. And so the style of the way that it was done was, I think, representative of all of that work and sort of unlocking the system piece, right? Which that’s kind of fixed, right? The next thing I do is also going to be some kind of like, hey, what’s the thing I need to learn or unlock or how does this kind of come together? That’s basically it.

Steve: I want to take you back to five-ish years ago. So you were, I don’t know, three weeks, six weeks, something like that into your first block of training. And, you know, you were like, I don’t get this. The workouts, you know, there were 45 minutes of easy running. Nothing was complicated. You weren’t feeling like you were destroyed. Yeah. Walk me through that disbelief that you experienced and what helped you to. keep the faith.

Rene: we’ve had this conversation i think you guys do an incredibly poor job at explaining what you do you know um like i’ve introduced you to people and they’ll have the same experience they’ll like sort of like i don’t i don’t get it those guys just telling me to run in circles for like 45 an hour like what what bs is this you know um look the truth is you take that to where i was before leaving for Everest. And like, here’s an interesting question. So people, you know, I’m like, hey, so I spend four hours on a Stairmaster on Saturday and I’ll do maybe three hours on Sunday. Maybe three and a half, three and a half. Like that’s my life for nine months. Every Saturday, Sunday, I spend three to four hours. Not less than three, not more than four. Somewhere in that vicinity on a Stairmaster. And people are like, well, you know, oh, that sounds so boring. What do you do? And do you listen to like podcasts or whatever? And it’s sort of funny. I’m like, actually, I’ve got a lot on my hands. I’m fine-tuning the training. Increase the speed a little bit. Decrease the speed a little bit. Wipe the sweat. Water. A little bit of food. You know, tweak this. You know, move the weight over. You know, wipe sweat. You know, increase the speed. And it’s because I’ve, like, over the years I’ve worked with you guys, I’ve learned, like, the difference between, you know, and it’s funny, right? because like originally even you guys were like, hey, training outside. And it’s, if you can figure out, it’s such a like non-intuitive way to train because what you’re effectively looking for is the exact right intensity. And it took me eight months or six months of working with you guys where I could actually tell when I crossed that threshold. There’s like a little bell that goes off. It’s very, very subtle. So no way on hell’s earth, If I did this for a decade, I would have figured it out. And the stuff that you guys work with is, and you don’t market it that way, but it is what Olympic medals are made of. If you look at Olympic athletes, they are using, I probably know the basics. I know them pretty darn well at this point. But this is basically what Olympic medals are made of. And it’s counterintuitive because you want to go for a run and you’re like, hey, if I go for a run, I want to train. All the movies have someone really working hard. And so I got to really sort of put the pain in. And the interesting thing about it is that’s the last thing on earth you should be doing. That’s called zone three. Don’t do that. You need to have a slow, steady run. And then the part that you… Here’s the deal. It’s like, is it really worth… And I worked with a personal coach from you guys. I was like, is it really worth a personal coach to tell you that intensity of where that flips? And I’m like, that’s the whole game. If your aerobic threshold is call at 158 on this week and you’re training at 163, like you can take that training and throw it out the window. And if it’s 158 and you’re training at call at 140 or 145,

Steve: yeah

Rene: it doesn’t get you the juice. But the truth is like, what’s freaking crazy is that what I learned with you guys is I could identify that, you know, aerobic threshold bang off the money. Like I know it, I can feel it. And I would feel it going up week by week. And what I learned with you guys is just to be three beats below it. And the truth is if I had other stuff going on, you know, my partner calls, there’s some business meetings, et cetera, like I’m not focused on the training session, I would exceed it or be below it. And that training session wasn’t very efficient or effective. but holy cow, like if I nailed it, if I got into that gym and I did three and a half hours and I know that my aerobic threshold on that week, for example, was 165 and I was at 162, bang on the money for three and a half hours. Like that feeling of leaving the gym, I’m like, bam, I know exactly what’s going to happen over the next. Like I will wake up three days from now and I will feel it jump, you know?

Steve: Yeah.

Rene: and that’s the thing where like and that’s the question like why did i keep the faith i kept the faith because i think unlike most people i i i’m like i’ve i’ve worked with you know through stanford and and other places like people that are best in the world what they do so i’m like even though these guys aren’t explaining it very well right like there’s got to be something they figured out the last 20 years you know and so that’s what kind of kept truthfully that’s what kept me going because I was like, I don’t get why. What do you mean run it at a certain heart rate? That doesn’t make sure. Okay. And it’s interesting. I would always exceed it and I wasn’t really listening to what the coach was saying. But I was like, you know what? I’ll bet on the fact that there’s something here and oh my God, is there something there? Like just FYI, I wanted to get my heart checked before I did this. And so I went to the cardiologist and they put you on this treadmill and these electrodes and it goes up. and at some point he starts looking at me like hey uh are you okay i’m like yeah yeah like let’s keep going he’s like this is usually where i stop people are you okay and i’m like yeah yeah so we went you know another few minutes past that he increased and increased the angle so then when we finished he sort of looks at me he goes hey man i i’ve been doing this for 28 years you’re like in the top 20 feet fittest people i’ve ever met and so i was like i don’t know i was like yeah sure whatever i didn’t really internalize it then then i got to like everest and i just like holy cow like we had ultra marathoners with those guys that are doing 140 mile an hour you know 140 mile races and things like like it’s just crazy it’s just insane i mean like my aerobic threshold by the way before i left for everest was in the 168 169 maybe even scraping 170 what that tells you is I could basically sustain a heart rate of my training for three and a half hours was at 168, 167 beats a minute 167 was like, that number rings with me, I know that number

Steve: hmm

Rene: and I could just, it would be flat it goes up when you’re sort of out of breath, it’s more than you can handle it three and a half hours, 167, bang on the money and that’s kind of what I was able to do and that’s like, it’s just insane you know yeah

Steve: yeah yeah my rule of thumb with this is like within about five percent so like that’s a a good sliding scale, right? Because if your aerobic threshold is 120, 5% is 6 beats. If it’s 170, 5% is a little more. So the window is a little bigger. And people need to understand that your aerobic threshold changes a little bit every day. It has a lot to do with your recovery status, which has to do with how hot it is, how hydrated you are, how well you slept, how much stress you have. It can be a lot of factors. you know we’re not just purely robots right so this is also where the coaching comes in where you’re like okay you know given what i’ve seen and how you responded to yesterday’s workout today you should be able to look you know do your workout at an aerobic threshold that’s pretty close to the top and other days it’s like you know what we need to be kind of like 10 you know if your aerobic threshold’s 170 we need to do this workout at 150 and that’s where that like kind of fine

Rene: i mean that’s the thing also like people would ask like why why you know like even after five years like why am i still working with a personal coach and the answer is like yeah i got the basics down i know i can go to gym i know all my aerobic threshold is i know how to train for it i know how to measure it i know you know like i come like i get it but like there’s these fine tunings you know of like hey you know the the knees are a little bit tweaky today right maybe i dropped the weight or like you know maybe we go for a run maybe we do something you know like or or maybe we take a couple days break how do you want to increase it you know do you uh is it better to put a little bit more weight slow down or vice versa like there’s fine tunings that you’re doing on it right um yeah sure

CTA/AD: [Uphill Athlete ad read — one-on-one coaching, free 30-minute call]

Steve: yeah 100 we were talking about your Everest attempt for a couple of years actually right you postponed it for a year due to you know some some work stuff that was going on that required your attention. You got through that. You came back. You did about nine months, roughly two months, sleeping in the hypoxic tent. And then you went up to Mara Peak and you had a pretty rough night at like 5,000 meters. Kind of walk me through that. Walk me through your thinking and what the tent bought you and love to hear a little bit of that story.

Rene: yeah so so the there’s a new game in town you get to sleep in these hypoxic tents and so that means you acclimate before you get there you know um now the the truth is that like

Steve: Right.

Rene: you know could you theoretically acclimate at home show up at everest and like waltz up it yeah theoretically um the truth is um probably good idea to do a dry run just to see if everything kind of like because you do need to get into the sort of mindset and the mental state and the physical state of climbing up and so so that’s why merit peak is there uh and like now that i’ve done it i’m like absolutely like definitely do like a smaller like sort of one week sort of you know walk around the woods so to speak to see if you’re ready um the the thing i think i’ve learned about my body is that that i had it on denali i had it on i’m on ablam and i on Everest. And it seems like my body goes through some kind of like, it kind of builds up and there’s like a really, really like shitty night of extreme, I don’t get. nauseous but like i’m talking like an 11 out of 10 12 out of 10 nausea like writhing i don’t feel

Steve: Thank you.

Rene: well and it lasts in in all three cases last somewhere between like a little more than four a little under six hours and then i’m done i wake up in the morning i’m like i feel great there’s some kind of like something snaps or breaks or there’s some something that like kind of flips And so I think what I’ve learned with Lucas’s approach with hypoxic tents is, A, they’re standard even for regular expeditions. So we did the fast one where you can do it in three weeks. But even the folks that do it regular also use the tents for four weeks, not eight like us. And I think it’s the way to do it. It increases safety.

Steve: Yeah.

Rene: It really is a huge safety buffer. But I think that my understanding is that those tents can only replicate low oxygen. They can’t replicate low pressure. and so there’s something else that the low pressure does but the difference is that your body can do that in a couple of days versus the couple of months it needs to produce the red blood cells and so that’s why i think that that you you do this sort of you know dry run you pick up some of the the the other non so time intensive uh acclimatizations in in that period and then you know for me like yeah i i also this time came prepared so on the last expedition the guide was like well why didn’t you tell me i was like what can you do well i would have given you an anti-nausea pill it’s something like pregnant woman use and i was like oh so this time i had one with me i felt this thing coming on i took it and it really just like it didn’t make it completely go away but it went from like an 11 to like call it a four you know and so yeah but those those moments like yeah every time i’m like man like why am i here like is this really what i want to do with my life you know like this really really really sucks you know uh and then it’s funny then it’s like literally that was it you know wake up in the morning you’re just like hey this is awesome yeah

Steve: I think one of the things that has really been moving in the last like I’d say three years now I think it really kind of something clicked is that we as and we I mean not just a pill athlete I mean the greater high altitude acclimatization interested community sort of figured out just through trial and error of the last 20 years, like kind of the right pace, the right dose. And again, like accommodation, it’s a lot like training. It’s the response is highly individual. And so what you have to read is a person’s response and then you have to adjust based on that response. You can’t just follow a formula and be like, yeah, we increase like, I don’t know, the sleeping altitude on 100 meters a night. Like that doesn’t work because because everybody’s response is too individualized. So now it’s like we’re taking we’re taking data, oxygen, sleep data, that kind of thing, and then being like, OK, well, here we need to pause here for a little bit. OK, now let’s let’s take it up a little bit. And we’re also giving ourselves more time. We’re giving ourselves more typically eight weeks. The other approach and a lot of the guide services that we work with for Everest and Denali that use these things are very good with helping us get this message out is, you know, the training load has to go down during that time too, right? Because your body’s got to adapt to this accommodatization stress. And so we need to have most of the training in the bank before you go into the tent. And so there’s all these kind of different things that we’ve figured out how to balance and adjust. So I think that there’s been a lot there in the last couple of years that’s come together.

Rene: there’s definitely something that uh like you know why try and train with the you know that’s the thing that you guys provided right you got someone i’m working with right who’s who’s used the tent so he’s highly aware of what the and he goes hey easy easy buddy easy you know

Steve: Yeah.

Rene: you’re sleeping at you know 6 000 meters at this point in time you know that’s not good for you right no like like i don’t want you to do three hours on saturday just do 45 minutes you know and so then you know what is the the maintenance mode that you’re in so that’s i don’t you know it’s not stuff that i would be familiar with like how do you maintain instead of increased fitness right how are you feeling on that day and that’s the fine tuning so yeah i’d agree

Steve: yeah yeah yeah what you wrote in the group chat about your night at 6 000 meters was uh not leaving the tent or sleeping bag until like six in the morning and And taking 20 minutes to get dressed, that was some good writing. I want to actually go back to something you said in the group chat and collect on something you wrote. And this was early. I can’t remember exactly, but early May. And you wrote, I often say that mountaineering is the cure for the male ego. More on that later. But you never wrote more on that later. So here I am collecting. What did you mean by that?

Rene: you know i think like the nice thing about mountains is like they you know i i think there’s a lot of learning coming from hacking your ego down you know it’s usually one of the most so i think um potent lessons you know sometimes the most painful ones come from you know i think uh and mountaineering has this incredible ability to do that you know i i was sick when we climbed denali that was representing the absolute peak i think of what i could do physically um i was uh a stomach bug and then on on amanda blama i had a flu so that sucked as well and that wasn’t you know easy um but yeah i mean these mountains have this ability just really really you know cut you down the size um i had it that night on on on merrip peak of all things right and just really really just not feeling well painful etc right um on everest you know um yeah i was super paranoid about not being sick so i i was like people make fun of me because i use that hand sanitizer i think like everywhere all the time you know etc but I wasn’t sick and so I was very very fit at the same time there’s a psychological aspect to it this thing’s big you know it’s intimidating people are dying doing it as you’re there and you hear these like little avalanches and little rock falls and things like that you know it’s it’s yeah I don’t know I I I would I would invite anybody to go to that thing and and say like you know I’m not intimidated this is going to be a walk in the park like that was not my experience you know i was like this is really big like keep out on the ball have your shit together like yeah it it definitely like for sure you know it makes you sort of realize you know the the the the futility and the and the and the incredibly fragile being that you are in this in the grand scheme of things and i think that’s a beautiful thing to take back to the to the real world i guess

Steve: so where is the ego in the end is it gone is it quiet is it smaller

Rene: I think it’s a great question I think that is it gone it’s definitely not as confident and that’s how I ended up talking to you guys it was on Orizaba where my sort of whatever I’ll just wing it and figure it out when I’m on the mountain did no longer work you know and that’s when I was like hey I gotta go and find someone that knows what they’re doing and start training with like an actual pro and go do it so to me yeah the ego I think it it’s still there you know I’m still me it’s just I think a lot more humble yeah easy

Steve: yeah i want to circle us back around to kind of the what i think is the most powerful part of this experience for you which is sort of the summit day and you had written it was something otherworldly it felt like we touched the gods as the heavens opened the sun rose lightning storms below us the winds picked up as we entered the jet stream like some kind of aztec or sacrificial ritual the energy was insane so you kind of reach for aztec ritual for the gods and like one of the areas i’d say of our friendship that’s developed that’s been most valuable to me is understanding how you spend your time proving things with mathematics and data and that seems kind of at odds with this ability to not just see but accept and be open to this kind of, you know, you said it yourself, spiritual experience. Where does that language come from? How do you connect that kind of hyperlogical, you know, mathematical, everything is solvable world to being able to have that kind of experience in the middle of the, you know, the highest piece of real estate on earth?

Rene: It clashes is the simple answer. And that’s, I think, why when I got off the mountain, I kept trying to figure it out. I was like, oh, I’ll reach a point where I’m like, oh, I get it. Oh, that’s it. And that’s when the guide, this is two days or three days later, was like, no, buddy, you’re not going to figure it out like that. I was like, you know, I need maybe like a couple of weeks. He goes, no, it’ll be like a lifetime. So yeah, that’s the question. Like it is, it does clash. You know, there’s a congruence in some ways. I don’t know. I think life is full of contradictions. I think that, yes, my engineering logics of AI brain wants the answer. But that’s, I think, the most beautiful thing about it, right? it’s like magic I’m really tearing up thinking about it you can’t explain it there’s something about it that you the more you try to touch it the more it will disappear it’s something very ephemeral yeah there’s a strong part of me that’s like I wish I could be like oh here it is like you know like it’s it’s this about i can name it and this this is how this is the emotion and everyone’s like oh i i get it and it’s just but that’s the thing i i had this i think it was like two weeks later when i had this more i was like oh oh i i’m never i’m never gonna like fully get it you know and so yeah i you know i i agree there’s a strong part of me that’s like you know Not what I call like woo or tree hugging or whatever. And it’s just, at the same time, I listened to it. In Afghanistan, I saw the life force. I really got to see auras around beings and things like that. And it was really like, I really started to understand that there might be more to the universe than just meets the eye

Steve: Mm.

Rene: from a sort of energetic perspective. And this was, and it’s funny, I talked to the guy, Dave, at some point, because two weeks later, I called him and I needed another therapy session. And I said, hey, man, I think that there’s a couple of things. One, I think I got to experience it because I was so darn fit. He’s like, yeah, definitely. And I said, two, I said, it started happening at like 8,600. Is it because we’re literally the highest thing on Earth at that point? Like, is it this entire mass that’s floating through space that’s kind of most closely connected to the rest of the universe through that one little tabletop? And the answer is like, yeah, that could be it. You mentioned the little WhatsApp thread that I had going on. I’m actually going to write a closure because now that I’ve sort of processed it and figured it out. And what I’m going to write is, hey folks, it’s been a couple of months and I’ve really had some time to kind of pull this apart. And the sort of two thoughts really come to mind. you know and and first you know it it is true what i said it’s it’s it’s not a mountain it’s something else you know and there’s kind of two paragraphs for two sections first is like i think it’s quite doable you know if people ask me i’m like yep it’s quite doable under two conditions and those conditions are non-negotiable the first is you need at least a year and a half if you’re sitting on a couch you need a year and a half to two years of just you know six days a week training you know with you know steve house that’s literally it because it will it will train you in a way that you you just don’t like you will be a super human by the end of it you know

Steve: Yep. Shout out to Coach Jerome, who was actually your coach. I mean, I may have taught him a few things, but it was him working with you.

Rene: guys you know this guy’s like he’s a feral wild animal that like does not belong in civilization You know, he just, and he’s got the PLA door, right? He’s got the Nobel Prize of mountaineering, you know?

Steve: That’s where I find him.

Rene: he’s not available on the weekends, you know, because he’s obviously climbing, right? But like Sunday evening, he’ll get off some mountain, like he still hasn’t showered, like, you doing okay? I was like, dude, everything’s fine, relax, you know? But like, I mean, this is the kind of guy you’re working with. And then it’s just the way he trains, you know, like, you know, I kind of heard, like, He’s like, whatever, dude, cry me a river, get back to the gym. But yeah, he’s just phenomenal, right? But I mean, like I said, I think one, the training. And then this is also what I don’t get. People spend the kind of money and go to an Everest expedition. If you were to work with a coach, that’s like 4% of the cost. It’s the one main, the only thing that’s in your control is your physical fitness. And people somehow are like, oh, I’ll figure that part out. I’m like, I don’t know. It doesn’t make sense. And then the other is the two conditions. One is the training. Two is having the infrastructure and the oxygen. And that’s where sort of Lucas came in. And I really did a lot of research. I talked to most of the outfits on that mountain, and I made my choice. And I’m confident there’s other great expedition providers out there. But this was definitely the one that I thought was a little bit different in the type of service and infrastructure they can provide. But based on those two things, it’s doable. You know, like you can get, you know, unless you have some reason, you know, like you can take a regular 45, 55-year-old person, put them on this training program in a year and a half and then have them, you know, go up. I would recommend doing a couple of smaller mountains on the way. So that’s one. And then two, I think this thing, this thing I experienced in that summit ridge, this kind of beam, these moments of having someone coming down and unclipped from the rope, and you’re holding them, they’re holding you, and oxygen mask, you’re staring at a mask, an oxygen mask there’s not really even a human face as they sort of go around you and reclip into the rope to continue going down it’s just like really really um fascinating you know there’s just and and like just re-experiencing this sort of almost like cathedralic like it’s a cathedral you know like dave you know would oftentimes you know at the beginning of the climb he’d say things like oh mother god evers mother goddess of the universe uh oh my guys like hippies you know they spent too much time on the mountain and two weeks later you know i’m sitting in sitting in europe and i text them i go mother goddess of the universe like i totally get it you know it’s it’s it’s literally it you know and that’s that like magic like holy cow it’s really like something like life-changing you know it really is like i’m just so much more grateful with my life i’m so much happier i’m so much less stress prone i’m like i’m just like i’m so grateful i got to experience that it’s just something like how do you explain it you know and i think like the last part i would put is there’s this article in the bbc with someone who’s done it a bunch of times and he says, you know, he closes the article, it’s an interview and he says, you know, no matter what they say about Everest, the crowds and all of that and the deaths and everything else, it remains one of life’s greatest adventures. And like, you know, I kind of feel like crying, you know, like I think my voice is a little shaky, but like it really is. It really is. It really is one of life’s greatest adventures to go there and just sort of put together some group, you know, band of idiots, you know, that are going to go try this thing, you know. It’s just some massive, massive mountain, you know. It’s really big, you know.

Steve: yeah

Rene: You put this together and you sort of, you know, say, hey, I’m going to go do this. Like, you know, and then, yeah, it… Well, one of life’s greatest adventures.

Steve: yeah one of life’s greatest adventures and you know connect that back to what you said earlier about why wouldn’t you want to write a masterpiece paint a masterpiece like right like that’s I think that there’s something super, yeah, something that I certainly very much relate to those words. So, yeah.

Rene: and so it’s you know it’s like like you like what’s modern technology has enabled is like you know 15 20 years ago i’d have to live in the same town as you to like pick this up you know now with with you know training peaks and garmin and you know all these devices right like kind of crazy you know a guy like jerome right who’s like literally won the top prize in mountaineering is like your guy you know you can literally call him up out of the book like hey i need to figure out xyz you know like you know when he’s not on some mountain right but like you Right. Yeah. He’s literally like I’m freezing on the side of Mont Blanc. Yeah, this is what you need to do. And it’s like… Yeah.

Steve: So I know you’ve been to Burning Man a couple of times and you had that experience where you walked into design transcendence, something, an experience and a place that’s been planned and built and permitted and created from nothing to facilitate a kind of a transcendent experience for a group of people. climbing mountains isn’t designed in that way was that how how are these two things different climbing a mountain and going to something like that i mean i can think about you know other things i think sometimes just going to a musical concert with live music can be transcendent right um how are these different for you

Rene: I think that there’s a lot of things that are actually, my knee-jerk reaction to what you said is, but they’re very similar. You know, and the similarity is that like, it’s something that like, you know, a lot of people look at and like, well, why would you want to do that? Like, that sounds, you know, dangerous and uncomfortable and really sort of out there. Like, why do that? Yeah, I think my knee-jerk reaction to what you said is that they’re very similar. There’s definitely differences, and I’ll tell you what the main difference is. I think in both cases, you’re doing something out of the ordinary, and that’s just been the story of my life. I find that one of those fascinating things in the world is when someone gives you a window into who they are.

Steve: Thank you.

Rene: And I’ve hung out with people in Afghanistan. I’ve hung out with people that sold large-scale weapons. I’ve hung out with people. And when they really show you their life, it’s just fascinating. I’m always like, wow, that’s kind of like, what an interesting experiment to be like that person. and so for me like you know whether like going to Burning Man like it doesn’t you know I’ve done Machu Picchu I’ve done lots of stuff where I’m like oh let’s let’s do that let’s try that you know it’s always the same it’s always like an incredible amount of preparation research like you know I’ll take this kind of risk like once every decade or so you know I’m good and it takes me you know two three years to kind of sift through it obviously you know after Denali like you’re training you’re on this sort of like train that’s moving you know you don’t want to wait a decade before you do you know Everest like that’s one reason why it was compressed you know but that’s the similarity of it it’s that sort of let’s see let’s unfold the card let’s see what’s on the other side that’s how I’ve chosen to live my life like why would you not want to see that and it’s it’s it’s sort of interesting to me like no one’s saying you gotta like it no one’s saying it’s like oh this is gonna be my thing but the experience i think like everybody should should do a tandem skydive once you know everybody should climb a 4 000 meter peak once you know like just kind of going out that’s like oh this whole world like for me it was like this whole world of like mountaineering it’s like a whole bunch of people around the world that like are like you know uh fanatical about this thing you know like what is it like why you know um the big difference though is the the the the big difference um you know is the the the discipline and the effort required you know and i and i think oftentimes like you know there’s there’s this latest sort of craze of folks that are like you doing these psychedelic retreats and whatnot, like, yeah, you go somewhere and you do this thing and you come back and like, oh, it really shook up a lot of things and I’ve learned X, Y, Z. There’s not usually a lot of effort or skill required. And for me at this stage of my life, I’m 44. I really prefer things where you need to put a good amount of time and effort into it to get something out the other end. you know especially with this where it’s it’s such a like healthy you know way to live life

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Rene: right i don’t think climbing ever is necessarily healthy but the training for it you know like now it’s interesting i i don’t think i can see myself without i don’t know six or eight hours of exercise a week i i just i don’t think i can do it anymore because it’s been so long where i’m exercising you know and i’ve got you know so many things in my repertoire i want to do a stair master go running and lift weights and so on and so forth so like um yeah i think that’s the fundamental little difference i think it at my age i prefer things where you know it probably has some kind of a health factor it probably has some kind of like large amount of effort required you know to unlock something that like not a lot of people get to unlock like that’s kind of i think in my you know in my 20s you know i was a little bit different you know i was uh you know busy busy

Steve: Yeah.

Rene: or you know my 16 17 you know skateboard and a beer right you know and that was kind of the extent of what I could do but that’s it I mean I’ve grown up you know and this is this is kind of a grown up playground you know

Steve: Yeah, I think that, you know, I’ve always thought that. So, I mean, the root of Uphill Athlete itself is because it comes from, you know, me having my accident back in 2010 and then needing something to kind of do during my, you know, two year recovery. That led to the publication of Training for the New Alpetism, which is what gave birth to Uphill Athlete without any planning on our part. and the whole reason I went in that direction was as I was like thinking about you know I was reduced to not being able to walk right like I couldn’t I was in a wheelchair in my own home like I was really really really physically messed up and I didn’t know if I was gonna that was if I was ever gonna even be able to climb anything at all and let alone continue as a professional climber and when i looked around like okay this if what do i do do i go back to school for something you know like there’s i have a number of interests do i just go in a totally different direction and go become a pilot which is what my original part of my original plan in life or and my reflection was like you know climbing mountains is a form of transcendence it is a pathway to a transcendent experiences we all need those in our lives it’s how we especially i think in in the modern era like i don’t know that people needed those 200 years ago when survival and and and the the world was different but given where we are now and if i could help more people have that kind of experience and the training is like the cover, right? It’s actually not the result. The result is the transcendence. That’s what I’m really trying to guide people to. The training is just sort of like, you know, the thing you do along the way to get there. Like the destination, I guess I should say, is having an experience like what you had on Everest specifically. But also, you know, we’ve talked about Denali and other times. And the training is sort of the trick. and part of the part of the price of admission and i think that they’re inversely proportional i think that the you know i went and saw the cure in concert a couple months ago and that was a fully transcendent experience i was like we were like you know a couple rows back from the stage and they i mean i had no expectations but it was they were incredible and i mean it was mind-blowing and you know a couple days later it was sort of gone right like It was incredible and it wasn’t that deep in the end. Whereas I explained how there’s climbs I did 30 years ago that I think about on a weekly basis. And that I can still give myself, as you said, feeling goosebumps or having tears because those experiences are so meaningful or so intense or so moving. And I think that those are very different things. And I think that we need all of it. time. We need both. We need all these things. So it’s really interesting to hear that kind of connection for you.

Rene: Yeah, I think, like, it’s interesting when you were talking, like, I think we maybe don’t fully agree on this one. And here’s why. I think, you know, in the sense of like, is the point these transcendent experiences. I don’t know. I would strongly feel that if you are going to go do a climb because you want the transcendent experience, there’s a very high probability you won’t get it.

Steve: 100% agree.

Rene: You know, and it’s like, if you’re open to whatever comes, there’s a… much higher probability you’ll have one of these like life altering you know experiences the thing that a lot of people are like well you know like tell me i want to do everest what do i need to do and i’m like well here you know i you know i trained for five and a half like five and a half years i’m like no but it was like for other mountains right yeah you’ll do like nine months and you can take a couple months off then you can do like six months you know like you know and truthfully you’ll probably need to do that for you know two three years depending on fast you know you you go through it and everyone’s like oh my god i’m like yeah but but the point of the journey like like the because i’ve been an athlete for five and a half years like i will i will basically have this in my life for life that is my default state now i i i cannot imagine a life where i don’t do you know wake up on a saturday and maybe go for an hour or two run you know it’s And that thing that like it’s changed who I am. And that’s in my mind more valuable than the transcendent experience I have in Everest, which interestingly enough, that really did change who I am as well. And that’s something that does seem like it’s going to be around for a lot longer. You know, the thing I’m trying to say is that the training that I’ve done with you guys, it it’s not going anywhere you know it’s part of who i am it’s a very solid thing that has really changed in my life where you know i i i know like i mean these days i go to the gym i’m like it’s a very familiar environment didn’t used to be the case you know i’m sure there’s listeners they’re like i go to the gym i’m kind of like i don’t i don’t really know what i’m supposed to be doing here maybe everybody knows that i don’t know what i’m doing here you know like whereas nowadays i’m like you know i’ve spent so much time in these gyms like i kind of really know what it is and i think to me that you know change who i am through the the exercise and the discipline and knowing my body and all those kind of things right like being in some you know ymca gym in prague in the basement with some guy who you know you know used to be a gold medal you know cyclist and is now pricking my finger to measure lactate threshold like you know like you end up in these situations where you’ve realized that this whole world of of athletism and sports right and like now you’re part of it and so to me that is the thing that i think is the part i would focus on or is the most valuable you know and the transcendent experience is like will come when you least expect it like i because i’ve done it before i did denali i did not want to belong so i did not expect there was going to be this kind of a this kind of a insane experience and and and those will be things that they’ll happen you know out of the blue and it’s it’s amazing don’t bet on it you know the other stuff you’re getting is like you can definitely bet on taking that to the bank you know like like if you spend nine months training for something that’s i think what most people realize it’s like oh i gotta train for nine months i’m like hey you get to do that and then that’s what i also but i was the same way i was like oh my god what a pin in the ass like look at all the time i’m putting into it and blah blah blah and then suddenly i realized i was like oh like now it’s part of part of me you know and that’s great

Steve: yeah it’s the difference between wanting to climb Everest to be the person that climbed Everest and becoming wanting to become the person that can climb Everest like those are those are different different uh kind of and the transcendence only happens when

Rene: yeah absolutely

Steve: the ego dies at least a little bit right and you don’t know when that’s going to happen and i think that that’s that’s part of it too and you know it’s like there’s a yeah there’s a there is a randomness to that i think it’s been

Rene: there was very like yeah sorry to interject but like there’s something really interesting which is like people like what was the summit and i’m like funnily enough the summit was like cool but the the last that like summit ridge and it’s interesting like i wasn’t thinking like oh i’m going to have summited Everest in 30 minutes. I was just like looking around like, what the heck is going on? You know, like there was no part of me that was like, oh, I can’t wait to stand on top. I was just like, holy cow, this is so cool. So yeah, like definitely, I feel like wasn’t this like egotistical, like, oh, I’m going to go be the guy that’s on top of Everest. Yeah.

Steve: yeah yeah i think that’s that’s super interesting well you have another big objective coming that i know is going to be hard uh beach honeymoon i believe is in in your future so uh marriage

Rene: marriage marriage marriage is the people ask me what’s up like marriage marriage is the next everest everyone i’ve talked to tells me it’s hard

Steve: yeah yeah 100 percent well i for one could not i’m no expert can’t help you there but uh but i believe in it i believe in i believe in the trends the transformation that can happen there too so thank you so much for sharing your experience allowing me to be part of your journey in the way that you have renee It’s been one of the things that I enjoy most about running uphill athlete these last almost 10 years is getting to be part of these stories in some way. And I wouldn’t be part of it if I didn’t have these conversations with you, both online, offline, in Prague, all over the place. So let’s keep that up. I really am grateful for that. And thank you.

Rene: hey steve as you see like my you know i got the prayer flags and the picture denali and all of that’s what you’ve you’ve really unlocked for me you know and i think the most important thing isn’t really the mountains but like to they to be an athlete you know that’s the thing that is like i’ll cherish like more truthfully i cherish more than anything else right and then you’ve really like you’re the guy that unlocked it and you’re Jerome, you know, the person that you introduced me to, right, that like unlocked this in a way that not only did I climb it, but I got to enjoy it. You know, I was really like so much safety buffer in the tank to do it. That’s just like really incredible and I’m so grateful to you and the work you’ve done and like yeah, what you’ve introduced me to. So thank you. I cherish

Steve: yeah no you’re very welcome you’re very welcome it’s been been a great journey so thanks for telling your story and to everyone listening thanks for sharing in this storytelling as well together we are a bill athlete thanks for listening