[cramblda]

cramblda on June 28, 2021 at 11:34 am · in reply to: Speedwork on flats: How to alternatve between Z3 and Z4 #55198

I know this is an older thread, but I’m curious how this is going for those of you using the flat Z3/4 work over that past year(s)?

I spent the last few years doing most of my running on rolling terrain or steep trails, including my Z3/4 work. I only do my 2x Week 3-5 mile recovery runs on flat terrain.

In 2020 due to the pandemic, I started doing more running on flat asphalt near my house mid-week, with my longer runs still on the trails. I noticed I could run much faster at recovery HR/Z1 on flat asphalt then the previous years – which I was of course happy to see. However, I could not get to AeT on flats for sustained distances due to the lack of ME (I assume) for leg turnover. Four years ago when I started all this training, my Z1 mile pace was about 10:30, now it’s 8:10 if I go approx 10 miles. My legs are working really hard while my HR is very low. A few years ago I was able to do tempo runs up to an hour long in the middle of my Z3 on flat asphalt. That wouldn’t be possible now on flat terrain. I can do an hour at AnT on a steep hill easily.

I’m thinking I need to do some more flat speed work if I want to improve my aerobic economy. I probably need to start small with very short Z2, and then Z3 workouts in the range of just a handful of minutes, and then work up from there.

Any thoughts or tips would be appreciated.

David

[cramblda]

cramblda on October 2, 2019 at 3:34 pm · in reply to: 30/30s on a Treadmill at Incline #29348

I did 30/30s and some ladders as part of the Luke Nelson Into to Ultra Running last year. I found these workouts to be incredibly challenging but also a lot of fun.

I tried a 30/30 on the treadmill once when traveling and just couldn’t make it work well. When I was running at that high of an intensity, controlling the speed along with the delay in treadmill response was very hard for me to manage. I’m 6′ 4″ (193cm) with a long stride. Stride length may contribute to this problem for me, in that I don’t get much wiggle room before I’m off the treadmill at the front or the rear.

If I recall correctly, the instructions were to run at AnT +5-10 and then drop by 5 for the slower interval. I was running around AnT+7 and dropping to around AnT+2. For me, this was pretty hard work to be fumbling with treadmill controls. The ability to instantly change my pace on the hill if my HR was dropping or rising too fast was very helpful. Although being very novice at workouts of this high intensity, I basically just pushed it as hard as I could go up the hill continuously and there wasn’t really concern of going over the AnT+10 mark. However, after many weeks of these 30/30s and the 2-3-4-5-4-3-2 minute ladders, I could run at AnT+10 for 5 minutes without slowing. My max HR was only about +4 higher.

-David

[cramblda]

cramblda on May 29, 2019 at 4:25 pm · in reply to: What heart rate is too low for training? #22686

@jan

I’m sure Scott will jump in a flush your question out further. However, here are a couple of thoughts based on what I have heard on these forums in the past and my own experience.

– The 110 HR average is right on the line of the 55% of Max HR you’re referring too. Thus, the answer will likely be very athlete specific (training goals, training history, etc.)

– Average HR for a workout is only one piece of information. In a longer workout (1 – 6 hours) we can hit a range of heart rates, and average HR alone won’t tell the whole story.

– Training Goals we’ll be a factor. How important is it for an athlete to hike with his/her friend once and awhile? What are athletes goals for training (Become a world champion, just improve by some metrict, etc.)?

– Training history will be a big factor in this discussion as well.

Here is an example: When I first started training, I could barely hold down a “running” pace with an Avg HR in the 135 range on flat terrain. After several years of training, I can hit much faster running paces at a HR of 120 on flat terrain. Four years ago if had done an Aerobic Base run at 120 HR I would have been walking really slowly and not getting much of a workout . Now, it’s actually a decent workout, so much so, that trying to run on flat terrain at a HR of 146 (AeT) would be a semi-hard workout for me. As such, I try to stay on the trail with hills most of the time. Some days when I “feel strong” I’ll run with an Avg HR in the 140 range. On days I feel fatigued, I run with an average HR in the 120 range. Compare that to my first year where I always ran around a 135 HR and that worked just fine.

[cramblda]

cramblda on May 20, 2019 at 7:26 pm · in reply to: Hamstrings #22279

@otherwize

Sorry for the delayed response, my training volume is up pretty high right now in prep for 50 mile race in 4 weeks. I finally had time to read through your information. I think my response was too long, had to try and attach.

Cheers,

David

Attachments:

You must be logged in to view attached files.

[cramblda]

cramblda on May 18, 2019 at 12:12 am · in reply to: Hamstrings #22156

@pshyvers Not exactly, and also yes.

The research shows that stretching helped with flexibility. However, with a couple of considerations. 1) You get an improvement in flexibility from stretching, but it lasts around 24-36 hours. You have to repeat the stretching to maintain the improvement. 2) Research is leading folks to believe that stretching has more to do with a person becoming tolerant to the pain of the stretch, not an increase in muscle length. 3)How flexible someone is, is highly genetic. Things like bone length, joint angles, etc. (anthropometry) play a significant role. It’s likely that elite level gymnasts have genetics that allow them to get into positions that no amount of stretching will allow the typical person to reach. So I do acknowledge that research showed stretching can help improve flexibility. Research also showed it does not help with performance, recovery, or injury prevention.

Now, to the part you were also mentioning regarding my current education on flexibility for things like L-Sits, Squatting, etc. As I stated, I have been stretching my whole life for sport/exercise since my 1st grade physical education classes, now I’m 42. Recently when I was struggling to get into desired positions for squat depth, L-Sits, Toes to Bar, etc. – I spent a year doing all kinds of “Mobility” work with lacrosse balls, foam rollers, MWOD “Stick”, and there “Super Nova”. I got to the point to where I was doing 2-3 minutes of foam rolling and mobility tools on each of 5 areas of my legs/hips, followed by 2-3 Minutes of PNF (Contract Relax) stretching on those same muscles. I would also hit the psoas, chest, lats, and traps often. This usually amounted to about an hour a day of mobility work. I made some improvement in my range of motion, but it was small for a year of work and never to where I wanted to be. I noticed that foam rolling made feel better while I did it and for about 5 minutes after. Once I was back at my desk, car, etc. the post-training soreness that exists some days would be right back. Pretty soon, I noticed a 5 minute walk gave me the same “better” feeling that 1 hour of mobility work did, and was easier to repeat throughout the day.

Finally after 6 months of hearing a couple of medical doctors mention the science on stretching over and over, I decided to stop what I was doing and try it their way. They explained that strength was specific, and the best way to get better in a position was to practice it. They said “even if you can squat to ‘almost good depth’ with 275, that doesn’t mean that you can hit perfect depth with little to no weight when you’ve never practiced at that depth”. I practiced squatting with lighter weights and did variations like pin squats and pause squats. In 4 weeks I was hitting depth. In 4 weeks, after trying to stretch for a year and getting almost no where, I had made huge improvement. With the L-sit, I had the same complaint you have and was trying to get better at the pike position. My PT told me to sit down on the ground with my legs out in front of me, leave my but on the ground, and then just lift my heels up. I did it, and my heels came off the ground an inch or two. He said “see, you have enough flexibility to do an L-sit. What you don’t have is enough specific strength.” I started working on my hanging leg raises, then migrated to toes-to-bar. These things were hard to do at first, but with a little practice they got easier and my legs started to stay straighter. Now I’m learning to do hanging “around the worlds”, and want to be able to do hanging wipers. I can’t do them yet, but I have improved a lot in just 4-6 weeks. It’s funny how hard it was for me to improve when I thought all the stretching was necessary for me to be able to reach a goal. Once I let go of that idea and just focused on practicing the movement, or a close variation that would help, I got better much faster.

I had a false start, or two, in the beginning when I got some soreness after a week and a half and went back to my mobility work – I was skeptical too. Eventually I realized some soreness from training 10-15 hours a week is normal here and there, and it goes away on it’s own in a couple of days. It didn’t go away any faster when I foam rolled. I realized most of the foam rolling “feeling better” was just placebo.

David

[cramblda]

cramblda on May 10, 2019 at 10:17 am · in reply to: Hamstrings #21842

I love how you assume it’s because I’m a better climber! 😀 You are truly kind. It’s more likely that my climbing is on such easy routes, it like using a ladder!

I will read through the attachment when I get a chance.

Peace,

David

[cramblda]

cramblda on May 9, 2019 at 1:04 am · in reply to: Hamstrings #21763

Hey Simon,

I appreciate you taking the time to read though all of my post and the summary article as well. I also appreciate how cordial your response is, it’s nice to be able to have a reasonable discussion of differing view points – on the internet of all places 🙂 .

I have some thoughts and questions. I’m not sure I understood all your points fully, so set me straight where I missed something.

I get the tongue-in-cheek thought regarding climbing be stretching, but I think that is an example of where we have to define what “stretching” is. If we define all movement as stretching, then it’s hard to isolate what helps and what doesn’t. I’m referring to stretching as defined by one of the three common categories:

Static: place the muscle in a lengthened position and hold this position; often held at an uncomfortable but tolerable end range of motion between 10 and 30 seconds.

Dynamic: utilizes active muscle contraction and momentum to lengthen muscle without holding the end-range position.

Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation (PNF): there are 2 types typically utilized, “contract-relax” (CR) and “contract-relax, agonist contract” (CRAC)

CR: muscle being targeted is brought to end-range where resistance is felt. The person being stretched then actively contracts against resistance (isometrically), and then the targeted muscle is taken into a new position of limitation.

CRAC: same as CR but instead of targeted muscle being contracted, the opposite muscle group is contracted against resistance. Then, the targeted muscle is taken into a new position of limitation.

I don’t think my time at the climbing gym fits in any of these three categories. Nor do I put my body at the ends of my range of motion any more climbing then my time running down a trail or strength training at the gym.

The article didn’t put me off of stretching. The scientific research on the effects of stretching for Performance, Recovery, Injury Prevention, and Increased Flexibility did. The article is just somewhat convenient as it quotes the science and has direct links for anyone who wants to view the studies first hand. It was a very long and difficult process for me to overcome the narratives I had heard my whole life that stretching was important. It took much more education on the matter, over a long period of time, for me to arrive at my current understanding. As the science is updated on these matters, I will of course revise my position.

The text regarding “Why Kenyan’s don’t run” is not part of the summary article or it’s analysis. That text is a block quote comment from “Bob Cooper, Runner’s World Magazine” and is properly sited and linked in the authors citations. I don’t know much about Kenyan Runners in regards to stretching – but the disagreement you have would be with Bob Cooper at Runners World, not the science that the summary article reviewed. Ditto on Lydiard as well.

I’m confused about your comment “this is someone who chooses not to believe anything that hasn’t been “proved” by a journal article, or mostly, in this case, by meta-analyses”. That’s how science is supposed to work. Maybe I’m mistaking your point here? In Science, we make a hypothesis, like “Stretching improves performance and prevents injury”, and then we design a study to prove this. If were successful, we try to replicate our study again. If possible, we get other scientists to test our hypothesis as well. A meta-analyses is the gold-standard in research as it compares the results of many studies and evaluates the methodology as well. All of the studies that had been conducted and verified showed no benefit for performance, recovery, or injury prevention in comparison to the control groups. The studies did show a small increase of range of motion that would last for up to 36 hours, essentially saying you have to repeat the stretch regularly to maintain the increase. Further, studies showed that this increase seems to be related to improvement in pain tolerance to the stretch through repeated bouts, and not elongation of muscle fibers.

The other things you mention are anecdotal, not scientific. The anecdotal can be helpful in explaining things when backed by evidence, but on it’s own it’s not very helpful in understanding what is going on to drive an outcome.

There are tons of amazing athletes who swear by stretching. However, does that mean that stretching is getting them that performance? Those athletes and coaches were/are subject to the same information, narratives, and education on stretching we have been subject to.

The science on fascia stretching, muscle knots, adhesions, or myofascial trigger points is not good either. It is, however, a very lucrative way to make money. I spent a lot on it myself.

The one area we seem to agree on is “movement”. Movement is a useful way to warm-up for exercise and makes us feel better when we have been stagnating at a desk or standing position for periods of time.

Even if we didn’t change each others minds, we certainly better off for this healthy discussion.

Peace,

David

[cramblda]

cramblda on May 8, 2019 at 2:21 pm · in reply to: Hamstrings #21717

I used to have a “tight” hamstring problem. I spent a year stretching and foam rolling for up to an hour a day, using lacrosse balls and other implements. I had read Kelly Starrett’s Supple Leopard, Desk Bound, and Ready to Run books (A popular Physical Therapist in the Crossfit community who has grown very popular in the “Mobility” community). I thought it was helping me at first, but never could quite get to where I wanted to be with my hamstrings, and also my squat depth – one of my many “mobility” goals at the time.

Below are some of my thoughts after several years of working through this. The thoughts are likely to be considered controversial by some (many?). I’m certainly no expert and don’t claim to be. However, you can take this as some information to be considered and either accepted or tossed away. Sorry this post is so long, but I felt like I need to write this much to do the topic justice. I’m not affiliated with Uphill Athlete, other then as a very satisfied client.

Towards the end of my “mobility” year, I found two medical doctors who coach strength training online and were focusing a lot of time on helping people with pain (both from sport and non-sport related issues) through education and something called the “Biopsychosocial” model – opposed to the traditional “Biomedical” model. They talked a lot about what scientific research (mostly meta analysis – a review of several studies on a specific topic including the methodology of said study) was showing vs what the medical education programs, physical therapy education programs, etc. had historically taught. I was very interested in this approach. Scott Johnston’s scientific approach in TNFNA was part of the lunre for me as well and I tend to favor this kind of thinking.

These two Medical Doctors made several comments during online live Q/A sessions over the next year regarding stretching and foam rolling for: a) performance, b) recovery, and c) injury prevention – not being backed by any modern valid scientific study. The ability of stretching to improve: d) flexibility – came with some important considerations to be aware of. When I heard that, I thought they must be “nuts” and I mostly ignored the idea for many months. After all, I had been told to stretch since I was in primary school physical education class, and through my entire life (42 years now). Everything you read online is all about “mobility” and how important it is. In the meantime I continued to heed their advice in other areas of strength training and pain issues that were helping with my Uphill Athlete training. I told myself after all “we can’t all be right all the time? “. After some time building some trust in them, and recognizing that I hadn’t made much real progress in the past year with al my “mobility” work, I finally broke down and read an article they recommended that reviewed and summarized several peer reviewed scientific studies and some case studies. The article wasn’t written or affiliated with these two Doctors, but they felt the information in it was mostly well supported by science (they say disregard the muscle knots – there is no proof of such and the article alludes to as much). I don’t know If I’m allowed to link outside sources in these forum posts, but I’ll try: http://www.painscience.com/articles/stretching.php

It wasn’t something that happened over-night, it was a multi-year journey. In the end, I have not stretched or foam rolled in almost a year. I have been training under Uphill Athlete protocols for about 4 years and I am currently training for a 50 mile trail race. I run six days a week, about 60 miles a week at the moment, two days strength training, a couple days for an hour at the climbing gym. This has been my best training year so far. I attribute much of that to building up work-capacity over the past several years, and also to UA training plans and coaching that is better modulated my workouts then I did on my own. However, understanding the Biopsychosocial model and how it affects my body has been huge in regards to non specific-pain that pops up from time to time when training high volumes or even just living life.

In the end, I learned the power of the “Psychological impacts” (self-talk and perceptions) and “Social impacts (what professionals, doctors, friends, and others say to you) has a huge effect on outcomes. I learned to stop telling myself “that my muscles are tight”, and that I need to “improve my mobility” to reach a certain goal. Instead I say strength is specific, and my body learns neuromuscular patterns through practice. I started squatting more and trying squat variations, and soon I was hitting my depth in just a few months.

My hamstrings can still have a “tight” sensation sometimes after long workouts or big training weeks. I know it will go away in a day or two and I don’t fret about it. I still do warm-ups before any workout. My warm-ups just look like easy or light versions of whatever exercise I’m about to do. A 5 minute walk can do more for me then any amount of stretching and foam rolling when I’m feeling “tight” or sore from a hard workout and have been sitting at my desk for too long.

[cramblda]

cramblda on September 18, 2018 at 5:33 pm · in reply to: Exploring AeT with Training Peaks Pa:HR #13489

Yes, that’s a helpful marker in determining a volume that will give your a body a break and still maintain some of your current fitness.

[cramblda]

cramblda on September 15, 2018 at 1:18 pm · in reply to: Exploring AeT with Training Peaks Pa:HR #13446

I guess your comment about volume hints that this AeT improvement will be lost when volume drops.

[cramblda]

cramblda on September 15, 2018 at 12:58 pm · in reply to: Exploring AeT with Training Peaks Pa:HR #13445

Thanks Scott. I’m not in the elite category, but I was at around 13 hours a week at that time frame.

I know I have had made specific errors in planning my off seasons and handling injuries in the past. I’m hoping with a few years of experience and some coaching I’ll do better in the next few seasons. I know you and Steve have talked about how our bodies need some down time between seasons to recover. However, I would like to not slide back quite as far as I seemly have been. Is it possible with better planning/coaching to maintain some of that improvement in AeT, or is that improvement generally require that intense training to achieve, resulting in us needing to re-build each training season?

[cramblda]

cramblda on January 10, 2018 at 1:14 pm · in reply to: GPS watch #7534

There’s some awesome info in this thread. I just want to add a cautionary note for others reading it that there is some apple vs orange in the mix – comparing watches that are several years old and several product lines up or down the spectrum of offerings.

I think if you’re comparing the Garmin Fenix 5 series to the Garmin FR935 to the Suunto Spartan Ultra – then you’re getting a more apples to apples comparison on the best offerings from both Garmin and Sunnto.

Both lines are great watches and miles ahead of the competition.

[cramblda]

cramblda on November 27, 2017 at 5:45 pm · in reply to: Length of the long run #6878

I take it you’re in a part of the world that you can go on hikes? 🙁

I plan a Z1 Run @ 25% of weekly volume, a Z3 Run @ 10% of weekly volume, and then a Z1 hike for the remaining 65% of weekly volume. For the Z1 hikes, I try to increase the amount of elevation gain each week (except recovery weeks) and add increasing amounts of weight to my pack after week 8.

I realize if you don’t have any mountains close by, this doesn’t work. My weekend hikes are some of the best parts of my life. Seems terrible that you have to look down five hours on the stairclimber. I can’t even stand an hour on the treadmill.

David

[cramblda]

cramblda on September 7, 2017 at 2:19 pm · in reply to: Transitioning for more experienced athletes #6027

Thanks, Scott. I appreciate your comments about not over doing it on maximum strength capacity. It sounds like I’m close to where I need to be (about 100%) and could probably go into a maintenance mode around 130% capacity.

You’re correct, I have seen wonderful gains following TftNA guidelines. It was confusing/hard my first Z1 run years ago. Then I dropped 2 minutes a mile on my Z1 and Z3 paces the first year (on a shortened five month cycle), and by the end of the cycle, I was starting my week with a 17 mile run that felt more like recovery then work. I was hooked and never looked back. I was training for Mt Rainier but probably arrived with CTL more in line with Denali requirements. My capacity was way beyond the need and thus the trip was a phenomenal experience. I’m sure you hear this kind of story often, but I hope you always feel rewarded for all your efforts.

The community can’t tell you and Steve enough how incredible the work is that you have done, and are doing, with Uphill Athlete. Have you considered selling Hats and T-shirts? It would be a great way for a lot of us to financially support this platform you’ve created and a great way for us to represent the UA brand as well.

Thanks again,

David

[cramblda]

cramblda on September 7, 2017 at 12:35 am · in reply to: Staying in zone while on a stairmaster #6016

Kedar,

I think it’s usually best if you can set a pace, or maintain a step rate, that will place you somewhere within the zone you’re training. It seems starting and stopping may not produce the desired result of continuous movement for many hours (or all day) that we’re training for.

For example, when I run, I set a pace that keeps me within the zone I’m training. If my HR begins to drop below the zone being trained, I speed up a little. If my heart rate begins to exceed the top of the zone, I slow down a little. Usually my HR will correct back into the desired range within several seconds of adjusting my pace. With practice you can stay in the correct zone for hours with little correction needed.

If the stair master speed can not be slowed enough to keep you in the desired zone, you may want to try another mechanism/machine (run/treadmill, bike, hike, etc.).

David