Posted In: Your Altitude Questions Answered
Once properly trained (took a long time to “convert” FT fibers to do ST “work”), the calculators were in the ball park for me from 5K time all the way up to marathon.
Prior to being trained, the calculators grossly overestimated my marathon pace the shorter the input distance (i.e. 5K race was very very poor indicator of marathon race – half marathon less so).
I’m classic FT, ran a 4.6 Forty in HS and played competitive tennis, my advantage was I could get to every shot on the court.
Fast forward many years later and I got into endurance running. Learned pretty quickly I was not naturally gifted there, though I had a certain amount of grit/toughness/determination that overcame my limitations. Once I figured out how to train, I eventually qualified for Boston which is of course at the marathon distance which I am particularly poorly suited for. I kinda hate marathons but my issue is I wanted to prove I could be good at something I hate. Now, getting a BQ is not really top-level but it’s a decent standard of “good.”
Okay, that’s good. I can only offer anecdotal suggestions as I have seen on super long endurance runs in the mountains where, when fatigued, even going downhill will spike my HR. Especially a technical downhill, or a particularly steep downhill. I always attributed it to fatigue.
To get the obvious question out of the way, what are using to track your HR? If it’s onboard optical HR from the watch itself then that is probably your culprit. They are especially susceptible to cadence being read instead of BPM. And on a big descent there would be a lot of bounce introduced causing the problem to exacerbate.
If it’s a chest strap, then something else is going on.
Thanks! Very pleased with the workout, as it was both good training and a good test/gauge. And While I was tired after, I went and did a 5m hike with 3500′ of gain the next morning with my son and that went fine so I snapped back quickly. I’m guessing it was the lack of downhill that allowed my legs to not need as much recovery.
I actually was thinking HR/Zone tests. I guess I read so many posts on here about the tests and it gets me thinking. But I feel pretty comfortable with my HR zones after years of HR training and my zone 1 is pretty close to MAF and as such is probably on the conservative side anyway. And I’ve most likely “made my bed” now with regard to HR zones and now I just need to “sleep in it” through to the race.
But it’s interesting you brought up pace tests, what do you have in mind there? I don’t recall seeing any Pace tests in Uphill Athlete, just the HR zone ones. Would be keen to hear about any I could try.
For years I’ve done Joe Friel’s “ramp tests” to gauge increasing fitness during training cycles. And I even modified those to make what I jokingly call “ramp ramp test” as I do them on the treadmill at 14-15% grade. Because I’ve logged them in my training spreadsheet I can go back and compare to previous training cycles too. But they are really HR “tests” as the pace/grade is the same “ramp” in each iteration, and only the HR changes (hopefully for the better).
Keep searching because this has been discussed quite a bit here, and elsewhere on the web.
For UA, the general consensus/answer is that there isn’t much transfer from cycling over to uphill training. If you want to increase the transfer, try taking off the seat and doing all of your cycling standing up. This works a bit better when mtn bikign and won’t attract quite as many stares. 🙂
Well, it was Saturday so that was the practice day. 🙂
No surprise, I didn’t make the Everest number. And while I did run out of time of chair lifts running, the truth is I started losing momentum after my 13-14th climb and just added on a 15th to call it a day at a nice round number. Total elevation came in at 16K+ in a bit less than 11.5 hours.
Plus I still have PPM on the calendar in 7 weeks so at that point it was easy to convince myself to let discretion be the better part of valor and save my legs for the training still to come. And truth be told, had I pushed onward I would’ve been looking at ascents AND descents, with darkness soon to come. So it was an easy decision.
I did get there early and manage 3 ascents before the lifts started (therefore 3 descents too), then it was just a repeated slog. My fueling/hydration plan worked great, and I had my wife/kids supplement with some pizza delivery at the top of the mountain around lunch time. The routine was plod out the ascent, then grab some food/drink and ride the 10min lift down. Ascents (1.1m with 1060′ of elev gain) were between 25-30min early and then between 30-35 late. Most of the climb was manageable except for a .15-.2m stetch at the very top where grade was over 30% and slipper grass. I experimented with zigzagging that stretch but also just went straight up it too. Couldn’t decide which I liked better.
Effort was mostly Z1 with the occasional drift into Z2. Of course I had 10min rest every loop while on the lift.
Anyway I hit the half-everest elevation (14,515′) at around 9.5 hours, so presuming I had access to a chairlift I’d estimate I could do a full in probably somewhere around 21 hours all things being the same.
Appreciate the tips, the hiking poles definitely helped and I only have some mild shoulder/arm (tricep) soreness now 2 days later. I’m pleased with the effort and have been able to get back into training already since.
Oh yeah, one other thing I didn’t mention. I’m going to try to use trekking poles. I have zero experience with poles other than general hiking so this will be an experiment. But I figure they might help, and if they don’t, I’ll just drop them at the bottom until I’m ready to pick them back up again. But I’m used to power hiking with my arms swinging for momentum so this will be a different experience.
Hi Scott – Yeah I had the same thought but couldn’t make it work logistically for a couple of reasons. For one, I’d only have the 1 bike at my disposal to use (my son would be using his bike), so it would only save me the one trip. And while that might be worthwhile, the resort frowns on bikers using the park when the lifts aren’t running. So I wouldn’t want to run afowl of the rules during the attempt and get myself kicked out.
I am a little concerned about the downhill no doubt, especially since it will be front loaded onto the day. But I think it will be at most 3-4 descents at the beginning and I believe I can keep the stress low by gingerly working my way down. The descent trail is more meandering and longer than the uphill trail so the grade won’t be quite as sharp too.
I can’t help with the training plan, though I did R2R2R in 2014 and I live in a similarly flat area (Southeast US). I did a ton of treadmill incline training in my preparation.
Interesting you’re going in March? My understanding is they still don’t turn on the water at the various waypoints (Indian Campground, Cottonwood, etc) until mid-May. Has that changed or are you just carrying all of your water needed?
Great topic, as this is sort of a pet-peeve of mine. I think most people over-hydrate these days, which is exacerbated by a lot of use of things like salt-tabs in the ultra running community.
My personal answer though is “it depends.” Most runs of any distance I will drink to thirst, and I tend to err on drinking less (meaning I won’t carry unless I really really think I need it). There’s such mentality out there of “gearing up” that alot of runners will wear a pack or carry a handheld when it’s not really needed (like for a 9-10m training run or a well-supported trail race with ample aid stations). A pack is just dead weight when not actually needed.
I train in the southeast US so I’m used to hot/humid conditions that test my ability to rehydrate. So I rely on that experience for races around here, but if I go out west where the air is drier and I don’t have as good a feel for how much I’m sweating, I might drink a little more than normal. One method that works for me in such races is to carry a 16oz disposable bottle at the race start then make sure I finish it by mile 5 or so to get ahead of hydration a little, then I toss it at the first aid station (or better, crush it against my waistband) so I’m not bothered with it afterwards.
I’ve done a fair amount of relays and while I have nothing to offer Scott’s always-awesome advice on training, I can suggest you figure out your nutrition for this event way in advance too.
Nutrition for a relay is far more complicated than a regular ultra due to the intensities you’ll endure. Most people can tolerate more varieties of food when running at ultra-pace than they can at the 10K-to-Half-marathon effort they will be running in relays. And yet it’s crucial you keep your strength up nutrition-wise all the same. So my suggestion is to figure out what you can tolerate food-wise at intense paces…like your meals you use before your Z3-Z5 training sessions in training.
You’ll also want to figure out how to get adequate rest/recovery in quick fashion too. 90 minutes isn’t much for sleeping but if you can get even 15-20min in naps that will help tremendously in how you feel.
This isn’t as easy as a bar and it does require refrigeration or a cooler, but this is my go-to fueling for long races. Works for me for marathons and upwards (I usually max out with 6-7 hour events though).
Overnight oats:
My recipe is simply a half cup of steel-cut oats, with a half-cup of high-quality milk.
Add a third-scoop/serving of protein powder (too much and powder overwhelms the milk).
Flavor with raisins and a squirt or two of honey. Any dried fruit works here.
Let sit in the fridge or a cooler overnight.
Eat that at least 2 hours prior to the event if relatively high intensity (marathons or Pikes Peak Ascent, etc). Can eat closer to the event for lower-intensity work (training runs or longer races like 40 milers etc).
It’s not much good for the incline issue, but a good high-quality footpod can address the variable speed problem with treadmills. I use a Stryd and recommend it, but you don’t have to go that expensive for simple pace measurement. Works great for traveling as hotel treadmills are horribly maintained and therefore usually wildly inaccurate.
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