[giohunt]

Sometimes, when I start my morning runs, especially my long run, I won’t really do a separate warm up. I’ll just do a few mobility stretches or range of motions exercises and then start running. (I’m sure I’m not alone in doing this!)

Right now, I’m working hard to overcome my ADS — so I’m trying to do all my runs aerobically.

But I’ve found that during the first couple miles of a slow run (i.e., during what is really my warm up period), I’m able to run much faster than the later miles without going over my AeT of 140. I can immediately start out and bring my HR up to about 138 quickly, keep it there, and get a couple pretty quick miles (for me) while still under AeT. Then, by about the third mile, I’m warmed up and I have to back off on my pace to stay under AeT (and of course, gradually slow down every mile thereafter to stay under AeT).

But the point is, I can run those first couple miles pretty quickly, as long as I don’t warm up first, and never exceed AeT.

My question is, am I really training aerobically during these first couple miles when I run them faster like this? My HR is technically always under my AeT. But my perceived rate of effort seems higher, i.e., more like I’d feel when, later in the run, I momentarily go over AeT while running up a hill or something. So, am I fooling myself into a bad behavior? By skipping a gradual warm up and instead immediately running just below AeT during these “warm up” miles, am I actually engaging my anaerobic engine (it kinda feels like I might be) and therefore depriving myself of the maximum aerobic base building I’m trying to do? Or is the body always training aerobically provided I keep my HR under AeT, even during these fast initial miles?

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

Topic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous on June 19, 2020 at 10:54 am #42907

…am I really training aerobically during these first couple miles when I run them faster like this?

No.

So, am I fooling myself into bad behavior?

Yes.

By skipping a gradual warm up and instead immediately running just below AeT during these “warm up” miles, am I actually engaging my anaerobic engine (it kinda feels like I might be) and therefore depriving myself of the maximum aerobic base building I’m trying to do?

Yes.

Or is the body always training aerobically provided I keep my HR under AeT, even during these fast initial miles?

No.

Heart rate is bad proxy for exercise intensity.* There’s a lot of lag between executing the intensity and seeing its effect on heart rate.

The goal is to work at an intensity below your aerobic threshold. Your heart rate will only reflect that if your cardiovascular system is given enough time to adjust. And as fitness improves, it seems like the lag gets longer.

Something that will help a lot is to let go of the idea that you need to train right at your aerobic threshold. Just focus on staying below your aerobic threshold intensity. And a lot lower is fine: https://simplifaster.com/articles/how-trainable-is-vo2-max/

* Using heart rate to measure intensity is similar to Churchill’s comments on democracy: “It’s a bad system, but it’s better than all the rest.” (…because we can’t use power or pace in variable terrain.)

[giohunt]

giohunt on June 19, 2020 at 8:24 pm #42913

I’m so glad I asked this question, Scott. And I’m so grateful for your reply. Slower warm ups from now on!

Thank you!

[Kyle Brundage]

Kyle Brundage on June 19, 2020 at 11:33 pm #42914

Scott dropping those truth bombs… Don’t worry, I “always” do my warm-up… Probably helps explain my recent post about why the first 30-40 minutes of cardio feels so hard.

Is there a recommended length of time for a warmup/cooldown? I hope 10-15m would suffice, for a Z1-Z2 workout. I think the answer is likely no but would a warmup be included in aerobic volume? A lot of my warm-up consists of very very low Z1 granted only a few minutes, they add up!

[JGwartney]

JGwartney on June 20, 2020 at 5:54 am #42917

Kyle,
I count all warm ups and cool downs as aerobic volume. It’s recommended to do so in TFTUA.

Jon

[Anonymous]

Anonymous on June 21, 2020 at 6:33 am #42942

…dropping those truth bombs…

Ha! I wish. I think it’s dangerous to think in terms of “truth”. Let’s call them Strong Opinion Bombs. I reserve the right to be wrong…

Super easy training is the most important, so warm-ups and cool-downs should not only be counted but prioritized.

The general rule of thumb is 15-20′ for a warm-up, but I think 20′ should be a minimum. There’s no disadvantage to going even longer. I do entire sessions at warm-up intensity!

“The business” is the easy work. The fun stuff is just a distraction.

[Kyle Brundage]

Kyle Brundage on June 22, 2020 at 3:41 am #42953

Ahhhhh I feel I should’ve known this. I’ve read through the book twice now (about once a year) but there is a lot of knowledge to internalize.

Maybe I’m getting it confused with the 24-week training plan, so I guess my last question would be if for example someone has a 90 minute ME workout, is that 1hr “in the zone” and 30mins of warmup/cooldown? or 90 minutes “in the zone” and however long warmup/cooldown to make it 1hr 45-2hrs total? With the plan I have went with whatever duration listed was how long the main part of it was, so for the 3hr days I stuck with that and just didn’t track the warmup/cooldown (if I had them) therefore it could actually take me 3hr 10m to 3hr 20m to complete.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous on June 22, 2020 at 9:53 am #42963

Maybe I’m getting it confused with the 24-week training plan, so I guess my last question would be if for example someone has a 90 minute ME workout, is that 1hr “in the zone” and 30mins of warmup/cooldown? or 90 minutes “in the zone” and however long warmup/cooldown to make it 1hr 45-2hrs total? With the plan I have went with whatever duration listed was how long the main part of it was, so for the 3hr days I stuck with that and just didn’t track the warmup/cooldown (if I had them) therefore it could actually take me 3hr 10m to 3hr 20m to complete.

I’m not sure I understand, but hopefully this helps. When I talk about time-per-zone, I mean down to the minute* as calculated by measuring power, pace, or heart rate. So a “90-minute ME session” would have heart rates all over the place with the warm-up and cool down being in Z1 or lower (or Z2 or lower for folks with ADS).

Does that help?

* You may read or hear people talking about an 80/20 relationship between low and high intensity. Those breakdowns came from studies that used a “session goal” approach, only counting the number of sessions and the intended focus, not the actual breadth of intensities within the session. A “modified session goal” approach counts the in-session variations in intensity. Using that method, the low-to-high ratio is often 20:1 in professional-level endurance programs.

[Kyle Brundage]

Kyle Brundage on June 22, 2020 at 10:28 am #42967

You sure are on the spot with all these questions and answers!

Sorry if I am confusing, I am asking specifically about the Uphill Athlete plans used in TrainingPeaks – my Muscular Endurance session today is supposed to be 90 minutes, so I did a 15m warmup, 90 minute uphill portion, and a 5m cooldown. Perhaps the plan intends for the uphill portion to be about an hour though, with the other 20-30m being warmup and cooldown? I have done the same with other days and never include the warmup or cooldown “inside” the listed duration for that day.

By the way loved hearing your talk about Free Speed with Scott J.! Look forward to hearing more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous on June 23, 2020 at 1:04 pm #42996

@kylebrundage: Can you point me to the specific workout? Something like “24-week mountaineering plan, third week, fourth day”? I can take a look and then be more specific.

[Kyle Brundage]

Kyle Brundage on June 23, 2020 at 1:12 pm #42997

Sure, I’m on the 24-Week Mountaineering/Expedition Plan in the final of the 3 phases, starting “Conversion to Specificity Week 2 Muscular Endurance”. Week 18, Day 1. It has you complete a 90 minute Z3 weighted climbs, so is the 90 minutes the ENTIRE session with your warmup/cooldown included, or a 90 minute weighted climb with your warmup/cooldown tacked onto it?

I think that’s why I was confused about not counting my warmups and cooldowns, because I haven’t been in the plan, and it seems what is listed is meant to be specific duration not including warmup/cooldown. Hope that makes more sense

[Anonymous]

Anonymous on June 23, 2020 at 1:54 pm #43008

All durations will include the warm up and cool down.

From the description of the “Z3 Weighted Climb” workout in Week 18:

* “Slow warm up to the base of a steep hill.”
* “Hike up going as hard as you can maintain for 1 hour.”
* “Then hike down with the weight as well.”

I think it’s clear that the warm up and cool down (the descent) are included?

However… I’ll concede that 1.5h is probably on the short side for this session. A 15′ warm-up, 60′ ascent, and then a 30′(?) descent will be closer to 1h45′. (I’m estimating 30′ for the descent assuming that you use water for weight and dump it at the top.)