Steve: Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. Before we get started today, I want to take a moment to thank Alyssa Clark. As many of you know, for the last three years, Alyssa has been the face and voice of the Uphill Athlete Podcast. Alyssa has stepping away from the mic to focus on her professional running career, which has been on an incredible track lately, no pun intended.

And I just want you to join me in thanking her for the warmth, the deep connections she brought to the mountain athlete community, and all of the ideas and passions she brought to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. We wish her fast, split, strong legs and a tailwind wherever she runs. So thank you, Alyssa, and happy Trails.

And now you’re stuck with me. My name is Steve House and I’m the founder of Uphill Athlete, and we are going to continue to build on what the Upper Athlete Podcast has always been, which is a source for proven training knowledge. And those of you that know me, know that we will continue to dig into the art of training and coaching for endurance sports.

And we’re gonna go deep into the all the rabbit holes around the science of how to train for trail running, mountaineering, alpinism, skiing, and all these mountain sports that we love so well. So I hope you’re excited. 2026 is going to be a, a brand new year with a brand new evolution of the Uphill Athlete Podcast, and today’s episode is, although it’s December, 2025, a great place to start.

Scott Backes and I are going to talk about our friendship, our climbing history together. But it’s really important to understand that Scott is one of these climbers who had a career, had a family. He climbed part-time as an amateur, and he did that at a very high level. We shared storms, we shared heartbreak, we shared summits.

We’ve shared a lot of life together, and for sure we’re going to retell some of these stories and relive some of these memories I suspect. But more importantly, we’re going to talk about how Scott, through his life, managed to keep climbing a part of it, living and raising his family and having his career in the Midwest and climbing with folks like myself and Mark Twight and many others.

And I’m sure we’re also going to get into that interesting, secretive, elusive path that climbing takes that always lead you back to yourself. I hope you enjoy it today. My name is Steve House and this is the Uphill Athlete Podcast.

Steve: If you’re enjoying the show and want to take the next step in your training, join our newsletter and receive a free four week sample training plan. Head on over to uphillathlete.com/letsgo, and once you sign up, you’ll instantly get a link to try out some of our most popular training plans. It’s a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals. Check it out at uphillathlete.com/letsgo. That’s uphillathlete.com/letsgo.

Steve: So to get us started off, Scott, I, tell me about the spark. What, What, got you started with climbing? How did you, how did it find you?

Scott: So, um, when I was in high school, I, the very first day of high school, um, we were supposed to get up and do the privilege of allegiance and uh, I didn’t get up. The non-war was going on. This would’ve been 1972. They hadn’t ended the war yet and I didn’t get up and neither did another classmate of mine and everyone else did. And the teacher who was a shop teacher, so he was, you know, salt of the earth guy, uh, demanded we get up and do the pledge and we said we’re not gonna do it. And they sent us down to the principal’s office and the principal or assistant principal, probably in those days. Took us in the office separately, of course not together, and tried to browbeat us into submission.

And both of us said, no, we’re not gonna do it. You can suspend me. My parents are gonna support me on this, you know, and, uh, we became friends ’cause of that. And then he actually quit high school, uh, after his junior year to go to college. He’s, he’s a brilliant guy and is to this day, you know, working in water filtration and for a while was in charge of the tar sands cleanup in Canada. So that’s the kind of person that he turned out to be. And so, uh, I was with a friend of mine going to a grocery store to get some munchies. ’cause I don’t, I know you know this, but, you know, I was a chronic pot smoker for a bunch of parts of my life. And that was definitely one of those parts. And I saw him and he said, uh, you know, we talked.

And I was like, dude, it’s really good to see you. Why aren’t you in school? And he, he’s like, oh, I’m at Carlton. Right. Which, you know, like, you know, oh, okay. And I don’t know how it came about, but he said, uh, Hey, have you ever gone rock climbing? And I’m like, and I said, no. And he said, you should come rock climbing with me. And I, I thought we were gonna go to this place in Minnesota, Taylors Falls, and you know, go scramble around. And we got there and he had these beautiful ropes, like, you know, one of the early ker mantles that was in the country. And we weren’t rock climbing, and it scared the, the hell out of me. And the first route that we did had a, like a almost no hand section where you had to kind of step across and I couldn’t do it. And then he set up another climb that was actually harder, but it was continuous climbing and I was able to do it. And then he was packing up to go and I said, can I try that one again? And I could see in his face, he was like, oh dude, I don’t want to go set this up again. And I kind of, you know, asked him again and he be relented and moved the, set it back to the first climb.

And I got to the same spot and I was just as scared. Uh, but I stepped across and I feel like I stepped into a different life. And then like a year went by with me mostly smoking pot and, uh, not getting in so much trouble, but becoming really unhappy. And then I ended up finding a group of climbers

and, uh, started climbing with them.

And that’s all I wanted to do. And, uh, a year later I went to Devil’s Tower for the first time. And my first time there, and this would’ve been 78, I led a five nine, which in the, at the time with Chalks, you know, with, uh, hexes and Tetons. Very few of you’ll remember those. And, uh, stoppers, that’s what, that’s what I had to lead this five nine roof.

And it, you know. I pushed me right to the limit, but I was able to do it without falling. And then a year later I went to, uh, Rainier and I remember the last thousand feet of elevation gain taking like 50 steps and then just throwing myself down in the snow and having my helmet against the snow. And just, but, but we made it and,

Steve: mount near memory.

Scott: right. Yeah. Got second degree, uh, sunburn on my face on the way down.

’cause I was too fucked up to put on sunscreen.

Steve: Yep.

Scott: And, uh, but I made it. And so like, I was like, wow. And then the, a year later, this friend said, Hey, uh, Kurt and I are gonna go to, uh, climb Denali. You wanna come with, and, uh, that winter, uh, he taught me how to ice climb. And, um, I remember my tools were bamboo laminated zero in North Wall, and then I also had a pterodactyl. And, uh, the first year that I ice climbed, I had soloed. And um, so it just felt really natural for me to, uh, do that. And these were really small ice balls. They were 35 feet tall. Um, but, you know.

Steve: And the climbing historians listening will know that a laminated bamboo shaft. ARD equipment probably hand forged by Yvonne himself. ’cause he

probably only made, I don’t know, 50 or a hundred of those in a

year maybe. And, uh, that they were also very problematic. ’cause obviously the bamboo would sometimes break, so you had to really watch that.

Right. I never climbed on one. I only got

Scott: They were, they were actually, they were stronger than the wooden shafted ones.

Steve: Okay. Yeah. They were stronger than Oh, well, and they, and because of, ’cause the bamboo has that real fibery

Scott: Right. And they were damped and so they didn’t shatter. They were actually like, I mean, you know, they weren’t recurved tools. They were, you know, curved tools. Right. But they

Steve: the, the curve pick had just been invented a few years before that. So

Scott: Yes,

Steve: let alone Recurved

Scott: Right. And so they climbed beautifully, I mean, for the time,

Steve: Part the time. Yep.

Scott: Yeah. And they were 55 centimeters, so they were not short.

Uh, and then we went to, uh, Rainier, I’m sorry, we went to Denali and both my partners, I’m gonna just say this out loud, chickened out

one at 16, four at the balcony. ’cause we climbed the rib. We did not climb the, the regular route.

So we got to the balcony and, and the guy who asked me to go, said he was sick. Uh, which, you know,

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: we were all feeling the altitude, but he was afraid. And then we got to, uh, a hundred feet below the plateau that leads up to the football field. And my other partner, same thing. Like it, it’s too late. We, you know, we’re taking too long. This is going too slow. And I’m like, the light’s forever, dude.

We got a stove, you know, we can make this and no. So we went down, broke my heart, and then we went to, uh, we went back to Seattle and climb Index in a few other places for a while. And then we were, our, our deal, the three of us was, we were gonna go up to the Rockies, Canadian Rockies after that, and they were done. And so we got to co Delaine and I literally got out of the car with a low pack and a small hall bag and hitchhiked up to Canada.

And while I was up there,

Steve: are we in?

Scott: ran 80, it was 1980.

Steve: Okay.

Scott: And so, uh, the, the friend of the guy who taught me how to climb Dave Austin, the guy who I didn’t stand up and say the pledge with, uh, had another friend who was an alpinist who had been up to Alaska a few times.

And, you know, he climbed, uh, almost all of the Colton Leach on the, uh, rooster’s comb. And, you know, he is

really, really good

Steve: it was cutting edge climbing at the time. For

Scott: Yes, yes. And so by accident we met up and, uh, he and I went and climbed the northwest at Mount Temple. So that was my first alpine climb was to do that. But before we did that. He said he had, he was with a woman and he’s like, I got, you know, I’ve got like four days, um, and you know, prove to me you’re really a climber. Go up and, you know, solo something. He said, how about the West Shoulder direct on Andromeda? So I went up and, um, my first route in the Canadian Rockies was to solo the West Shoulder direct on a drummed dump. And, uh, that was epic at the top, like spent an hour and a half, two hours chopping through Cornes to get through. Uh, and then we, then I came back down and he and I climbed the north face of Mount Temple, uh, by a new route. Actually half the bottom, half the, um, dolphin was running with, you know, reigning rocks.

And so we climbed rock up to where the low route comes into the dolphin and, uh, did some hard rock climbing pitches

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: and did a unplanned bivy, uh, right below the overhanging

rac climbing

Steve: checking all the, like, you know, boxes of the, the, the fire of, you know, what is the word I’m looking for, Scott? The fire of like, um, uh, not, I wanna say not ordination, baptism.

Scott: baptism.

Yeah,

Steve: all the baptisms. The first, the first open bivy digging through cornices. Have you

fallen into Casse yet?

You missing that one?

Oh man.

Scott: Long time for me to fall completely into CVAs.

Steve: Yeah, it does take a while. More

Scott: So, and it was actually I’ll, I’ll, I’ll fast forward to tell you what it is because it’s this beautiful time. Mark and I are on the descent right before we get to the 60 degree face on the, uh, west, um, ridge of Mount Hunter.

Steve: Doing Mark.

Yep.

Scott: Yeah. And so we’re, we’re cruising down rope together and um, I just disappear and we’ve been on the go for like 35 hours, 40 hours at this time. And Mark said it was like, you know, the angels came and took you like you were just gone

Steve: Just if

I.

Scott: Yeah. And just gone and, uh, and I ended up bridging the CVA only a few feet down and was able to climb right back out. Uh, but anyway, so last thing for that Canadian trip, and this is the, this is the important piece to this. The first two were really important also. Um, but the second was, um, climbing the north, facing Kitchener. And so David Ed to go back, uh, and he hooked me up with a Colorado climber named John Tuckey. And John and I went to climb the north facing Kitchener, and we got up to the ice space, um, and. It had, it started snowing a little bit, but you know, all of a sudden there were spin drifting avalanches coming down.

And so we ended up down climbing casse, uh, way off to the side so that we could get away from the avalanches. And then we took a day or two off and weather cleared in the beautiful Canadian Rockies way. It did not in the 1980s. And we went back up and, uh, soloed from the bottom up until where the ramp pitches begin.

So the first two thirds of the route, we just climbed out rope at all. We didn’t have harnesses. We had swamis. And, uh, he had a zaki, which is, uh, I know you know what that is. But Zaki is a two man bivy sack that’s coated with breather holes for each person on each side. And the bottom is open with a drawstring.

So you put it over your head and pull the drawstring tight. And that was it. No stove. We had one liter of water each for the entire root. And I, I don’t, I, I don’t know what food we had, but it was like almost no food. And we were gonna do it in a day, and it would’ve been the first time the Kitchener gotten done in a day. And, uh, we got to within like a pitch and a half at the top and it was pitch dark and we, it, you know, the pitches were last two pitches were quite hard. And so we. Spent the night out again, much colder in the snowstorm, woke up in the morning, you know, frozen leather, single boots, the whole thing, and, uh, climbed those last two pitches and then had to doer sits the one rappel into the notch on Kitchener. And

Steve: Tell what? Tell what a,

Scott: yeah. So

er is a way to repel where the rope literally goes over your shoulder and up through your legs and you’re using your body as friction.

And it was the very first way that anyone, uh, I can’t remember, uh, doer’s first name. Uh, I wanna say Franz, but I don’t think that’s right. Hans Delver. Yeah, yeah.

Was the guy that invented that. So we got to do that. And I was talking with Mark about this, you know, the last time we hung out. And I said, you know, when I got done with that biv W and that whole situation in kitchen where it pushed me past my limits for sure, like I was so afraid on some of the pitches of the ramp route, a notoriously bad pro. And if you were lucky, you’d get a, a, a sling around an icicle and a, and a knife blade for like a whole rope length of, uh, climbing. And, uh, and so we got done with that. And, um, instead of saying, I’m never gonna do this again, what I said was, this is what I’m gonna do for the rest of my life.

Steve: Why did you say that

Scott: I, I can tell you now why I said it. I could, it was a different reason, you know, back then. So the reason back then was that I’d never, uh, experienced anything like that in my life. And that I, for the, you know, I felt like, um, I felt like super human after I’d done that. And, uh, the reason, you know, today that I look at it and, you know, my, my loving joke, uh, to my past is, you know, it was a meaningful conversation with my dad.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: And, and, and equally as important, perhaps more important was that my personality, my soul, uh, required the hero’s journey.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Scott: And not everyone needs that. And not everyone is built for that.

And some people think they are and try to, and they can’t. And some people that could do it never find the, the, uh, uh, venue for themselves. And, um, and I feel like that’s what that was about.

Steve: So, you know, one of the things that, you know, I heard, for example, in the P podcast I did with Peter Metcalf, you know, he talked about going up to Alaska, I think it was in 1978, and he talked a lot about how they pulled it off, like what they went through just to do the trip, right? Like. You’ve talked a lot about the climbing, but what did you do to be able to spend the summer in the, in the Canadian Rockies as a young man.

Scott: Yeah, so what I did was, uh, worked my ass off at a, a warehouse and lived with the parents that I didn’t like and, uh, you know, which meant moving back home for that. And, uh, I hadn’t filed taxes for three years, and so I filed the taxes for the three years and they owed me an immense, for me at the time, an immense amount of money.

And so that was my first five month climbing trip. So, you know, I, I left in April and I came back, uh, in September. And, you know, devil’s Tower, the needles of South Dakota, like I said, the Index Climate Index Baker Rainier, uh, another time on Rainier Denali, then up to the Canadian Rockies.

Steve: Hmm.

Where were you the first time you met one of your climbing heroes?

Scott: Oh, this is a heartbreaking one for me.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: I, uh, was in Minneapolis and, uh, Jeff Lowe gave a slideshow and, um, well, I shouldn’t say that. One of my climbing heroes was my friend Dave Austin,

and I had lost touch with him, and he was doing a slideshow at our local, uh, climbing shop, Midwest Mountaineering, about his climbing Yosemite. And he was an early valley boy. In fact, there’s a picture of him in that George Meyers book, uh, walking Slack. And, uh, he, that summer he had done Hall of Mirrors up to the eighth pitch, and he had done the South Seas and,

Steve: These are Hard aid routes that

Scott: Hard aid

Steve: are very dangerous and don’t get climbed very often.

Scott: right. And then had done the sixth as Send of the Shield and, um, and something else, I can’t remember what it was, but I remember going to that slideshow, and this would’ve been 78, going to that slideshow and just being like, I, I couldn’t believe it.

Like, I couldn’t believe those pictures from El Capitan. And holla mirrors like being, you know, eight pitches up and looking up a slab with absolutely no holds. It’s five 11 or five 12, uh, rock climbing with the potential of a hundred foot fall,

Steve: Hmm. In

1978.

Scott: Yeah.

Steve: When the top of the climbing grade is five 12.

Scott: Right. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. So, you know, it was, it was, you know, it was mind blowing, I’ll just say for me, and gave me something to aspire to. And then after that summer, uh, of 80, Jeff Lowe came to give a slideshow, and I tried to talk to him afterwards. And, you know, he was having none of it, and, you know, completely dismissed me.

And I just remember feeling, uh, crushed that he wasn’t at all friendly, and, uh, that he didn’t wanna hear about the fact that I, you know, soloed one of the roots that, because that he was the first one that climbed the West Shoulder directive, and he had done it on onsite solo.

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: And so I just wanted to, you know, like have that connection and,

uh, you know, he wasn’t having any of it, so, um, that was hard.

Steve: that is one of the great things about climbing is you do feel that connection with the pioneers when you do these roots. I’ve

Scott: Yes.

Steve: saw the West with, uh, shoulder direct on, and I didn’t go through the cornice though. I did the huge traverse,

Scott: Well, yeah. right, right.

Steve: but but nevertheless, like, I mean, one of the reasons I did it is ’cause it’s like Jeff Low group, right?

Like, it’s like that was one of, you know, it’s like, oh, owe to the master. Like

Scott: Mm-hmm.

Steve: let’s go, let’s go follow in his footsteps and commune with the master. And

that’s part of climbing.

Scott: Ramper was also his

Steve: And the ram route on Kitchener was also his.

That’s right.

Scott: yeah.

Steve: And that had been just a couple years before, was it

75 or 78 or something?

He, he, he

climbed that route. So I mean, these were some of the hardest alpine roots in the world at that time. I mean, and, and Jeff was doing them, and you were repeating them just a few years later and he didn’t have the time of day for you.

Scott: Right.

Steve: And, uh, could I just say, Jeff, please forgive me wherever you, you know, rest in peace,

uh, that tracks.

I, I think Jeff became very kind and gentle and open in his later years. But when he was younger, he was, that’s, that’s that, that was, that is his reputation. That is how people experienced him. So,

Scott: Right. Yeah.

Steve: For better or worse.

Yeah. So,

Scott: Yeah. And so, and, and good lesson for me, like, you know, I, I, what I really wanted as a climber in terms of, uh, notoriety was the 40 people in the world.

Steve: yeah.

Scott: And I didn’t really care what anyone else thought. I thought for a while I did, you know, probably till like 82 or something like that. Uh, I cared what other people thought and would try and, you know, talk to, you know, people about that stuff.

But after I actually started getting good at it, um, I really just wanted to be part of the cadre

Steve: and

how do you engineer that living in Minneapolis? Did you move west like so

many other climbers or.

Scott: no, I ended up, you know, there’s only those few places and so you end up slowly running into those people in those few places and, you know, the,

Steve: were

Scott: the Yosemite, right? So, you know, I got to hang out with Backer and Calc and Ed Barry and Ian and, uh, Dmitri Barton and, um, you know, a bunch of those guys, right?

Steve: Masters,

Scott: And I was not into them. They were, they were like a locker room group to me. Like there was a hierarchy and it wasn’t very free. It was a kind of the opposite of free at that time. Uh, and so that, that sort of bummed me out. But then the Rockies different story, you know, winter climbing and alpine climbing. I, you know, I ran into Barry early on and Peter Beck and, uh, ward Robinson, uh, and then some Americans too, you know, that, that I met up there. Michael Gilbert, you know, my friend Michael Gilbert, I met up there and,

Steve: mutual friend, I should

Scott: yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and so, you know, it’s. Those few places that, you know, have that kind of really cool climbing, uh, you, you end up meeting your, your, you know, those people.

’cause that’s, you know, that’s where we congregate. And, um, and then same, you know, same with Europe. Like where I met Mark in Europe in 1989 and uh, uh, you know, so, but I still, by living where I do and by climbing the way I do, I never was part of the cadre in terms of, um, being friends with a larger group until I was part of the North Face team in 95.

Steve: Hmm. Hmm mm-hmm. And I want to just for those listeners that aren’t familiar, say that Mark is Mark Twight. Barry is Barry Blanchard, and they, bo, you know, Blair has been on this podcast, mark, hopefully will be shortly. And a lot of these, these names like Peter Arbick, ward Robinson, I mean, unless you’re a real historian of Alpinism, you’re not gonna know those guys.

You know, Kevin Doyle probably would’ve been another one in

Scott: Yeah. Kevin, right?

Steve: right. Um, but, uh, like these guys were, you know, cutting edge of, you know, they, they were close to the top of the sport at that time. You know, granted the sport was only, you know, 2000 people or whatever it was worldwide at that time. But, but nevertheless, these roots that they established in, in the seventies and eighties were, you know, are, are still still hard. The ramp route is still hard. Like the west face, west shoulder didn’t get any less steep or any less treacherous or, you know, and the rocks don’t fall any less quickly when the, when the sun hits the upper face.

So, you know, you got those, those things all still exist. Gravity’s still, you know, science always wins gravity. You know,

gravity’s still the same. So. Those guys were real pioneers and doing things with, you know, equipment that is completely different than the equipment now and all the other other things.

So we have to pay homage to them. So I still don’t get, like, and I think, you know, well, let me just ask you this. Do you, do you remember the first time we met and put

Scott: Uh, that’s a gathering, wasn’t

Steve: Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. Do you remember the first time we were in Kenmore together?

Scott: Was the first time we were in Canmore together when we did M 16. yeah,

Steve: sure. Yeah. And that was 1999. And one of the things that I was, I was a regular up there at, at throughout that era, you know, I was there two, three months out of every year.

Scott: Yeah.

Steve: And then I was climbing with Barry a lot and some of the other, you know, Joe Josephson and, you know, just whoever would, would rope up with me basically. And, uh, and then you show up and we go off and do one of the hardest routes in the range, and everybody’s like, who is this? Who is this guy? You know? And you’ve been, you know, you’re on the North Face team, you know, with all, you know, the other professional climbers of that era, but you never quite fit that mold and you never really, like, I would say. I don’t know if you hesitated to, to, step into that, like, I’m Scott Backies and you know, like, I’m badass aist. Or if you, if you really didn’t identify with that in yourself and you wanted to keep something, because at that time you also had two, two young kids, you know, you were, uh, at that time, what were you, 44 I think

Scott: 42 and 42 when we did the, the, the, uh, M 1643 when we did the Slovak.

Steve: Okay. So, you know, my contrast to I was 28,

so the very different eras of, of life and you know, the other, who else was on the team that time? Well, I mean, it was like probably largely at that time on the North Face team, people, the same generation as you are. It was, you know, kitty Calhoun at that time.

Uh,

Scott: through and tell you it was Lin Hill, it was Lisa Ti

Steve: J Smith.

Scott: it was j Smith, it was Greg Child, it was Alex Lowe, it was Conrad Anchor j Smith, Steve Gerberding.

Steve: Yep.

Scott: Uh, and uh, and for those who don’t know who Steve Gerberding is, he would’ve easily, um, got the record for El Cap Roots, which he shares with Hans, but he didn’t care.

Whereas Hans did,

and Steve had this whole deal of doing the hardest roots in El, in El Cap, uh, in a continuous push. Not always 24 hours, but always in a continuous push. He and Scott Sto and, oh fuck, I, I’m sorry, I can’t remember the other guy’s name, but, um, the three of ’em would go up on these roots that would take people, you know, like someone like me would take 12 days.

Someone that was good at it would take five or six and they would climb it in 18, 20, 24, 32 hours.

Steve: yeah,

Scott: So he was an amazing guy that was even more reticent than me.

Steve: yeah.

Scott: And, and I guess what I’ll say about that is, that’s what I was trying to say when all I really wanted to to have was the respect of the 20.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: And that it felt to me like, uh, this isn’t exactly superstition, um, but it felt like it would be, uh, pushing my luck to, uh, become noted.

Steve: Or to oversell yourself.

Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Right. And, and so for me, like the whole deal of like, I wanted your respect, I wanted Mark Wilker’s respect. I wanted Pete Metcalf’s respect. I wanted Mark’s respect. I, I wanted Barry’s respect, I wanted Jojo’s respect. And, and I had it, you know, like I have the respect of all those people, uh, and some of the French because of what Mark and I had done, those new routes that we had done, you know, the people, the, the 20 to 40 people in the world.

Not everyone liked me ’cause I wasn’t always that likable. Um, but they knew who I was and they knew what I did.

Steve: But, but you know, when you say you’re not likable, that’s also what makes you likable because you’re, you’re a, you’re a guy that says what he thinks

and, and that’s that, you know, that’s rare even to, you know, maybe even more so today, but take me, take me make the connection between this guy from Minneapolis and climbing with Gering who lived in Yosemite, worked all year in Yosemite as a mountain guide on, in Yosemite, like knew the ins and outs of Yosemite, like the back of his, better than the back of his hand, probably, you know, Greg Child who climb, you know, all kinds of new roots in the karakorum.

Alex Lowe, who was just this superhero figure for all of us. And, and they were all, one thing they, one thing they all had in common is they were all put themselves in the place where the thing was happening all the time.

Scott: Right.

Steve: Mark Twight another example, you know,

mark was, mark moved himself to Shaman’s. Like, that’s where I gotta be if I

wanna do this at the highest level.

You never did that. Connect that for me or explain like

I into.

Scott: yeah, sure. I, I went out to the Yosemite and was gonna move out there and become a, you know, see if I could get on the rescue squad. And then I found that the whole thing was this top down, very locker room feel to me with Becker being at the top, sometimes calc, you know, him. And it was before they were arguing and then there was a hierarchy.

And, uh, and if you, you know, like if they caught you Hangdog and something, they would surround you in Camp four and J you. I really hated that. And then I went to move out to Boulder and uh, I had friends out there and so I would, you know, I climbed out there a lot. Like I, back in the early eighties, 80, 82 and 83 and 84, I climbed all of the five elevens.

So all of the really scary ones. Jules Verne, naked Edge, XM daughter, space Love minus Zero, like a bunch of these roots that, um, were calling cards. And then I’m also like one of the few people that can say that they, uh, let all the 10 pins in the needles in one day.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: So I was a, you know, I was a strong rock climber.

People don’t know me as that because I, you know, come from Minnesota and that was never my focus. I just loved doing it. And part of how I got strong for the mountains. But, so I went out there and I was hanging out, uh, and I went to this party and Chris, uh, skip Gerran and, and Bob Harran were there. And, uh, this guy that I was staying with, clean Dan, who ran a window cleaning business, like the first of the rappel down, clean your Windows guys.

Right. Uh, which is a thing now, right? It’s, that’s actually osha, you know, rules for doing that, right. So, you know, but back then it was, you know, um,

Steve: with a rope.

Scott: yeah. And so, well, and there were climbers, you know, so they knew how to do it right. So no one ever got hurt, but, you know, it was, you know, bizarre. And, uh, he introduced me to, to skip and Bob and, uh. Dan said, yeah, you know, these guys have been really crushing, you know, they’ve been really, uh, you know, climbing a lot of hard roots for, you know, their first couple times here. And I remember Skip kind of looked at me and he, maybe he was nicer, uh, and he was like, oh, really cool. And Bob said, what Roots and clean, Dan.

I didn’t even say anything cleaned. Dan said, oh, you know, they did Jules Byrne and T two and X utter space, and they climbed love behind Zero and the Naked Edge. And Bob looked at me and then looked away and looked at Clean Dan and said, oh, the old five elevens. And then he turned and walked away. And I was like, I don’t want this.

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: Like, I have a really nice climbing community in Minneapolis and I know what I have to do to be, to keep up with you or Mark, which is impossible nearly, but as close as I can with the, with the engine that I have. And, uh, and I know, and I spend five months a year traveling, climbing, and I, you know, I did that for 20, 25 years.

And I love the arts in Minneapolis. Like I’m a music guy, like, and we have one of the best venues in the world for music, which is first avenue. And I also like art. And there’s tons of art, there’s tons of dance. Um, and there’s really great museums here. And I know that, you know, seems weird. Like people that don’t know me may seem to, you know, believe that it’s impossible that that would be a thing for me.

But that’s a huge thing for me.

Steve: Yeah. Yeah,

Scott: And uh, and you don’t have that in Boulder and you certainly don’t have that in Merced.

Steve: Well, you do now with Red Rocks maybe, but, uh, it’s maybe bigger acts. It’s not

Scott: it is bigger act. It’s not like what,

Steve: not like what you have in Minneapolis

on First Avenue there, where you’re,

you’re seeing like, and, and, um, and you know, my calling card to this is always that, you know, I went to, as, you know, college in Olympia, Washington,

and I saw Nirvana way be, you know, years before

they’d published an album in the first in playing in somebody’s, you know, apartment at a college party.

Right. Like, so, so I get that. I mean, they were terrible. They were obviously weren’t as, I don’t know if you can ever use the word polished with their sound, but, you know, they were, they

weren’t tight, uh, the way they became later, of course, but it was like, you know, they, they, two years later they were, they, they were on, you know, this big breakouts hit, but. And I just gotta say, last night I booked tickets to see the Cure they’re playing outside of Vienna next

Scott: Right. So I saw them three times at First Avenue

Steve: yeah,

Scott: in that little venue,

and I saw U2 there for their very first concert tour. They were too young to be in the bar after they did their set because one of them wasn’t even 18.

And so they had to clear out, they got to walk in, do the show, and then they had to clear out ’cause they weren’t

Steve: door.

Scott: Yeah, right.

Literally. ’cause ’cause the one guy, I think the drummer was 17 still, so,

Steve: so great.

Scott: right.

Steve: That’s so great.

Scott: Yeah. and and I’ll also say that, um, I know both you and Mark, I always felt like my training was chaos and, and to you guys it was. Um, but I’m one of the first people that I know that was a climber that got a pulse monitor,

like chest drop

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: and learned about it.

And, you know, I never had a notebook and I’ve never, you know, written down any of my training. But I also knew that there were, there were these minimums that I needed to be able to go into the mountains.

Steve: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott: Uh, and so I did that, you know, like I ran with a pulse monitor and uh, you know, would go out for four hour runs with a camelback so that I could get LSD so that I could teach my body to eat it fat. And uh, you know, so I did all these weird things and I had all these, um, like mesner, I had all these in, in Minneapolis that I would traverse.

Steve: Uh,

Scott: And some of them were long, some of them were 600 feet.

Steve: yeah,

Scott: uh, you know, and hard like, you know, the easiest way that you could do it would be five 10

Steve: yeah,

Scott: and, uh, you know, and so,

Steve: Zone two training for

the fingertips.

Scott: Yeah. And the other thing that I did was after Kitchener, I came home and I’m pretty self-reflective. I think you know that about me. And, uh, I was like, what happened? And I’m like, I got away with it. I got away with it on, uh, temple. I got away with it on the West Shoulder Direct and I got away with it on Kitchener especially.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: And so what do I need? And so the very next year I went to Yosemite and spent four months and climbed Dale Cap twice and half Dome by the direct. That was my first route in the Yosemite was the half was direct on Half Dome. With my friend Dave Austin. Then he left and then I spent the next month and a half free climbing and, you know, didn’t quite get, uh, a, a bunch of the elevens, but got all of the 10 C’s and D’s and then was able to do holla mirrors up to the eighth pitch.

So, you know, five 11, D 12 A, whatever it was, uh, ’cause I was a good face climber and the cracks, you know, took me a little bit longer. And so then the next winter I went up with this friend of mine who was, uh, you know, God rest his soul, uh, who’s an alcoholic, but he was a good ice climber. And we spent a month, uh, up in the Canadian Rockies and we were only indoors two nights, so you could stay at the cook shelters in those days for free in, in the winter. And, uh, I, we climbed, you know, white men’s, we climbed pilsner pillar, we climbed, uh, the beer walls. We were done in, in, um, uh, climbed expert’s choice and lineman waterfall. And then

Steve: wall, I’m sure.

Scott: well the, the final thing was the weeping wall, but I’d already climbed that in 1980, the winter of 80, 81. Uh, barely with a, with a friend of mine. But this time we got to the base and my friend was really hungover and it was kind of warm and his glasses were fogging up and he is like, I’m fucking not climbing it. This is shit. I’m not doing it. So in the winter of 82, 83, uh, or 80, yeah, 82, 83. I soloed, uh, the whipping wall, which I don’t know if it, you

Steve: I don’t know if that had been done by that time, and that’s pretty

Scott: maybe, maybe,

Steve: maybe.

Scott: maybe, maybe someone had done it, but you know,

Steve: Yeah,

Scott: I did,

Steve: yeah,

I’ve done that. It’s scary.

Scott: Yeah,

Steve: modern tools, it’s like,

yeah. It’s just, yeah, it’s, it’s a little

Scott: It’s big.

Steve: Yeah.

It’s your way up, your way off the ground.

Scott: Right. Uh, so I guess what I’m saying is that I knew that I needed to have these skills so that a single pitch wouldn’t ever defeat me. I didn’t mind if the gods came and, you know, kicked us down the mountain.

That that wasn’t, I knew that that was just the way it was. The alpinism, you know, there’s stuff that you’re not in charge of and, uh, you know, getting stormed off a mountain or conditioned off a mountain or whatever, you know, to me feels really acceptable, like part of the game.

But to be the guy up on the lead, not being able to do the lead, uh, that wasn’t acceptable to me.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: And so I got those skills so that when I went back to the mountains, uh, that stuff couldn’t, couldn’t defeat.

Steve: Well, it’s not just that, uh, you still owe me a slipstream. Total blank stare. No, remember going up to the base of Slipstream

Scott: Well, yeah, yeah. With my, with my bad feet from M 16. You do. I do. I I not slipstream, I owe you a, a triple crown.

Steve: Triple Crown.

Scott: That’s what we were doing.

Steve: Oh, that’s true. We were doing the, yeah, we were doing the Triple crown. Yeah,

Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Which did get done, you know, Bruno and, and Rolo.

But we would, I know we would’ve done it if my feet weren’t fucked

Steve: yeah, yeah,

Scott: and uh,

Steve: was a big season.

Scott: yeah,

Steve: We were good.

Scott: yeah, You remember me, remember me standing on ropes and knife plates to get across to the drip

Steve: Yeah. Yes, I do. Yes I do. That

Scott: that ice had come down at, you know, five feet long, earth, sooner. You know, we had to climb that that day.

Steve: Yeah, we would’ve,

Scott: Anyway,

Steve: yeah,

Scott: so, so that was the deal. My deal was that I really never wanted to be the guy who turned us back ’cause I wasn’t good enough.

Steve: Hmm. You always used to talk about, uh, how your favorite gods were the Greek gods. I always love that. We got a lot of laughs out of that. I tell my kids that now.

Scott: Yeah. Capricious.

Steve: I’m teaching him that.

Scott: Yeah, I mean, it, it, it really is, you know, the, the, the way that I, you know, joked about it, but the capriciousness of the universe and you know, how it’s fun for me, it was fun for me then, and it still is to, you know, imagine them up there like, oh, look at the humorous here, man. These are perfect guys to fuck with, and they’re not gonna get it either.

They’re gonna like keep banging their heads against it, so this is even better sport.

Steve: yeah, yeah, yeah. Let’s throw, let’s throw a storm down on ’em, our lightning bolt and,

Scott: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, that, that, that comes to the head, like, the best way that that ever came about was, uh, the, uh, north face of Alberta. I went in there three times before I finally climbed in,

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: and the first time I went in, we got in and it was, uh, my, the weather was perfect. And my partner, by the time we got in, had had succumbed to a viral infection of some kind and was, you know, puking and Right.

And then he got better and the weather still stayed. And we went up and got up to the low bivy and he’s like, I’m too weak. I can’t, we can’t do this. So we repelled down that face and then had to climb out of the hole, which I, you know, it’s really terrible. And then we went in the next winter and, uh, second we got in there, it stormed for like literally a week. And, you know, we had to ski out and halfway out, one of my bindings pulled outta my ski and I had to one foot it like halfway, uh, you know,

Steve: Yeah, the Gods were laughing

Scott: they were laughing.

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: And then the third time we got up on the face and, uh, really, uh, like did the crux pitch. I led, I led the crux pitch, and then Bill led the pitch afterwards.

The one that Barry talks about having the brand new coflax and the five 10 face climb and billed that after I’d done the A three knife blade traverse.

Steve: the brand new coax

Scott: Yeah. So the Coflax were so terrible for rock climbing, and unless they were brand new, because they were stiff as boards. And so the,

Steve: stiff as a steel girder.

Scott: as a steel gird and there was no rubber rand around ’em, so the plastic would slide off everything. So like, if you tipped your foot in just a little bit, it would pop right off the hold. But this section on Alberta have these, uh, like diamond shaped. Edges where the limestone had broken off into these perfect little flack tops. And you know, because the coflax were brand new, you could just stand on ’em like they were, you know?

Steve: have that 90 degree edge on the

Scott: Yes. Yeah,

Steve: off, there was

no

Scott: were. Yeah, you were done. You were absolutely done. So, uh, and, and so Bill led that and we got up to the, that bivy and it started raining on us and we’re like, oh fuck. And then, you know, lightning storm, we lowered our rack and our cookware a hundred feet below us. It was like that bad. The bees in the helmet

and got up in the morning, we’re ready to retreat, sun comes out, gets beautiful.

We climb all the way to the last biy. ’cause it was, you know, we couldn’t even start until one or maybe 11. We started. So we only got like a half a day climbing. Same thing. The next night we’re really high, now terrible. S thunderstorm comes in, even more afraid that night of the lightning strikes. And you know, they’re just like lightning strike thunder, lightning strike thunder.

Like one second. And we’re like, this is gonna be a terrible retreat ’cause we’re up really high right now and you know, this is gonna be awful. Woke up, sun comes out, dries the face out, we summit. And then while we’re on the way down, we hear voices and we’re like, are we hallucinating? I’m like, I don’t feel that wasted.

This isn’t like that. Turns out that Tim Aer, who was a warden, uh, we call park Ranger, but they’re different in Canada. He was a climbing ranger, had brought six other wardens up the Japanese route as a training exercise. And so we ended up, you know, meeting almost at the summit. And then they knew the way down on the Japanese route.

And so we just,

Steve: As someone who has been lost going down the Japanese route,

having climbed the north face.

Uh, yeah. It’s like, which, you know, which of these, where do I, it’s,

Scott: Right, exactly. It is really.

Steve: super tricky and I, I mean, we didn’t, I mean, it was Vince and I and we did not do it

right. I mean, we got down, but we did not do it right.

Scott: Right. So, you know, weirdest thing for, to like, probably no one has met on like the, the, the, the peak probably hadn’t been summited for five years

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: and then on the same day, two parties meeting on the summit is like, you know, so that’s my Greek God story, right? Both nights, just the terrible thunderstorms and, you know, absolute despair.

We’re gonna give up. This is our third try. I’m never coming back here no matter what happens. And, uh, we get to climb it.

Steve: I’ve heard you say that Alpinism creates, uh, environmental hubris. How did you put it? Alpinism creates environmental hubris and rock climbing creates human. Hubris, is that how you said it?

Scott: Yeah, I think so. maybe maybe slight different phrase. But, but the, the, the difference between the two of those for me is that, um, even when you do an X Rock climbing roots, like so you could die, for those who don’t know what X stands for, they probably have a different name for it now. Um, but even when you’re doing that, or soloing third classing, uh, there isn’t any other factors involved. And, uh, the alpinism, if you get the right set of circumstances and um, you know, you get to the top of something, you definitely, uh, have a different, like gratitude, um, for your hubris. Like there’s a way that you may feel like you’re a great, yeah, yeah. You may feel like you’re a great climber for getting up a hard alpine route, but you also know that it could have gone completely the other way. Whereas I feel like rock climbers oftentimes don’t ever feel that way and that they, uh, that there’s a way that they, um. Get to think highly of themselves, uh, without having to be tempered by those other factors. And, um, when you’re doing the hard alpine roots, you’re tempered every, every human that I know that was a good alpinist had a bunch of times when they went up strong, fit, motivated, spiritually ready, great partnerships, and just gotten their asses kicked.

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: And there’s a, a little anecdote, or maybe even shorter than an anecdote, we were, um, I can’t even remember what we were doing, but Mark and I just fucked up over and over again on this route and we did not make it. And we’re walking back to the car and I, I cannot for the, I don’t remember which one of us said it, but, um, one of us looked at the other one and said, how have we ever gotten up a hard route? And, uh, ’cause you have those days when

you know, the, the, the, those Greek gods conspire against you.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: Sometimes they just like to see you suffer,

Steve: Yeah. Maybe nobody was conspiring. You can, there’s unforced errors too, right?

Like

Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Steve: So,

Scott: both of those.

Steve: you know, what is the, if, if output is kind of gives you this humility and rock climbing sort of gives you this hubris, what, where does life fit into those models?

Because

you’re also, we haven’t talked about this.

I mean, you’re also the father of two amazing grown children, which I mean is the ultimate, that’s the ultimate badge of honor as, as far as human achievement to me, is like that you, you raise kids and your kids are amazing. And that’s,

there’s, that’s not, you know, there’s lots of ways, there’s lots of ways to mess that up of people do, but your kids are, are both, uh, incredible, uh, humans. You know, you’ve, you’re, you’re re you know, successfully retired. You had a great career. You built your, you know, up your company

to the left 20, how, however long.

Scott: 20 years.

Steve: 20 years. and have have just recently retired. Congratulations, by the way.

And I had to wait for you to retire and get your damn shoulder surgery before I could get you on here, but it was worth it. So, you know, how does, how do those lessons tie together with these other aspects of life where you’ve been so successful,

Scott: So,

Steve: at least

Scott: what I’ll say. Here’s what I’ll say. The, the, um, there’s a line from a old Somerset mom book called The Razor’s Edge, where the. The line is, it’s easy to be a holy man in the mountain. And, uh, so, you know, you get to be like a monk as a alpinist. And a lot of the training you do if you’re successful at as an alpinist is by yourself because you need to have the training that you need to have and group think isn’t part of that.

And those who do group think are never, I shouldn’t say never, but mostly never gonna be as good an alpinist as those who are willing to go and do it by themselves because they know what they need that day. And, uh, and so I think, um, that kind of, uh, monastic ideal and then the, uh, fact that you really do get to be a holy man in the mountain means that you have a place to start from in terms of, uh, some humility. And then I think that, um, all the climbers that I know have a really, all the alpinists that I know have, have a really hard time when they’re in their thirties, especially bringing it to the city. And, uh, and then they, and then they have another really hard time like I did, uh, when they quit Alpinism, if they do.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: Those two periods of time, um, I think are really critical in people that have, uh, are alpinists and that, um, I’m, I, mark won’t care, mark won’t care if I say this. Even someone like Mark becomes a humanist and that’s amazing transformation from, if you read, uh, his first articles that he wrote

and he’s kind and humanist and, um, you know, he still does not suffer the fool gladly. Right. Nor do I. And I think that that kind of humility, um, and finding a way after being up high, down low so that you can put some of those lessons into play, uh, are really important for development of, um, the rest of our lives. And I know that you’ve struggled, you know, I know that,

you know, uh, with the exact same things.

And, um, and I think that when I’m a great rock climber, the success that I would see in my life is, uh, you know, maybe a little bit more ruthless business person. And, uh, the, you know, the. Just like I’ve seen so many big fish in small pond rock climbers, and I’ve never seen a big fish in a small pond. Alpinist, I guess is what I’ll say about that. And there’s lots of nice floor rock climbers.

Steve: Oh yeah, of course. Yeah, that’s, we’re not throwing, we don’t need to throw everybody under the bus

Scott: Uh, not at all.

Steve: I wanna go back to, ’cause I love what you said, that, you know, it’s easy to be a holy man in the mountains and it gives us a place to start. ’cause

that I totally rings true for me.

And then tell me about this transition in your thirties and then I’ll tell you something about mine.

Scott: Okay. Yeah. So when I started coming home and, uh, you know, before I quit, um, and for me, a big part of it was finally realizing that my dad was wrong. You know, like it took me 10 years to like myself enough to be able to come back in, into the, into the city and be a good kind person.

Steve: How was your dad wrong? What did he tell you that was wrong? I’m not gonna let you off the hook. I.

Scott: No, no. And I don’t want to. I’m not, and I’m not at all afraid of that. Like I, you know, that’s like a big chunk of my life. So my dad was like a lot of, uh, greatest generation dads. And, um, he was, but he also was a narcissist. And so he was, um, brilliant. He was a Shakespeare scholar and, uh, he was really precise. And, um, I was an a DD kid with a really big heart, and all he could see was my flaws. And he taught me in an immensely, uh, effective way to hate myself. And he hardly ever yelled. And, uh, he had been an actor. And so, um, he had this voice and his cold contempt for all the mistakes that I made, made me feel less than human. And, uh, so there’s a baseline of, of self hatred. And I often say that if I hadn’t started smoking pot at 15, I would’ve killed myself in my teenage years, uh, because I really hated myself that much. I remember one time walking by a plate glass in a mall and looking at myself, and, I mean, I don’t think I said it out loud, but I might as well have, uh, looking at my reflection and saying, you’re hideous. I didn’t just mean my looks, I didn’t mean, you know, my, my physical representation. That too. But it was much deeper than that. Um, and then I’ll also say that one of the great things that happened, um, because my dad was a Shakespeare scholar, is that there was endless books. And so I realized by the time I was 16, after, you know, reading the classics for two or three years, uh, that they were all hypocrites and that they were all fucking wrong.

Steve: How are they wrong?

Scott: uh, just the whole middle class morality and, you know, uh, your, your word is your bond. And like, I, I just saw how it wasn’t that, you know, the Nixon, Watergate and the whole, you know, way that the, uh, um, older people reacted to the hippies and their hate for them. And those were the opposite things that, uh, they said that they lived by and espouse to. And so I just saw that, that, that way of living, of being two-faced like that, and I’m, and I decided that that would never be my path.

Steve: hmm.

hmm.

And, how did that connect to this self-hatred that you carried around?

Scott: yeah, so, so there was a way that I was able to say that. Um. I may hate myself, but they’re wrong too.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: And, and there was also more than array. There was a, a, there was a bright sky that I found through reading the classics

and, uh, and a way through life where I realized that, you know, I was right. And that, uh, you know, those corporate fucks.

There’s a great line from a, a modern group and it’s actually a breakup song, but the first line of the song is one of my favorites, which is, uh, the businessmen drink my blood, like the kids in art school said they would. And, uh, and so I knew that from the age of, you know, 15. And I knew that all those people that, you know, uh, pretended to be noble and, uh, but but were mean to their kids. And, you know, the people that were religious that, you know, didn’t live according to that. And you know, my joke when people would be religious when I was in my twenties and try and convert me or something, I would say, so you consider yourself a practicing Christian? And they would say, of course. And I’d say, well, it sounds to me like you need a lot more fucking practice and,

Steve: and, what did you mean by that?

Scott: I mean that you aren’t living the life that you’re saying you are if you’re trying to proselytize,

like figure your own shit out first. And, and so I went on that journey from those books till today to find myself and to find out who I was. And climbing certainly helped, but the books helped and some therapy helped. And, you know, getting sober helped and, and you know, that’s something that I don’t mind talking about either. I’m almost 25 years since I last had the pipe between my teeth and you know, as you know, I never really like drinking.

So I, I’m grateful for that, that,

you know, drinking just usually made me sick. And, uh, but smoking pot didn’t. And you know, I think of all the drugs that you could take, you know, three or four times a day, like I would do so for, you know, not always, but, you know, ’cause I would go on and off, right. Uh, but I feel like that was probably the least harmful thing that I could have done to myself.

So I’m grateful that that was the one that I preferred.

Steve: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I’m gonna get in trouble for this, but not a lot of domestic violence is committed on, on marijuana. You know? It’s,

Scott: For real.

Steve: Yeah.

And so, uh, yeah, that’s, that, that’s, and I think that when you’re a DD that makes more sense, right? Because it, it defo you a little bit,

which, which, you know, you probably needed, uh, a release from your own in intensity.

I mean, you’re so intense that you could look into that plate glass window.

Scott: I mean, I, I guess I would ask you that question, like, you know, you knew me when I was a little bit older, but I don’t think there was a single person that met me that wouldn’t have said backs. Oh, fucking backs is super intense. I mean, is that your, or maybe not. I don’t know.

Steve: I mean, we were all intense,

right? I mean, you have to be intense. You have to be intense to like be even interested in, in these things. I

Scott: Mm-hmm.

Steve: for me, I think like that thirties struggle was, you know, sort of trying to figure out how my climbing mattered. Like, you know, I had, I had from a pretty early age been, you know, my, since, you know, I went to the Himalaya the first time when I was 19 years old.

Scott: Right, right,

Steve: And so I was on this track, I was completely bought in. And then after NGA Parbat, you know, I had, I had to write this book, you know, the Beyond the Mountain Book.

And the reason is is ’cause I thought I might not live very much longer.

And that’s the awful truth. That was one of my main motivations for, for, I was like, I’ve gotta do this because if I keep, go, you know, I mean, I’m not dumb, right? Like,

Scott: I,

Steve: you know, how many of us are left?

Scott: I’m laughing because it’s true.

Steve: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

of course. I, I, I know, I know.

Yeah. And, and, and, and it’s also like, kind of like, sounds morbid and crazy and all these, like, why would you keep doing it then? Like, I mean, there’s all kind, like any normal person would be, and it’s, you know, well, because that’s my, that was my, that was my purpose. That was what I was here to do, and

that was what I was doing, and I was, it was like a, and I really identify with your idea of, you know, it being a holy man in the mountains because

that’s where I could go and I could, I could really connect to that part, that holy part of myself, that part of myself that could be quiet, that part of myself, that could live according to all the, you know, morality and rules that you wanted to come up with without needing any of the morality and rules, because it was so, so stripped down that you don’t need rules about, I don’t know, not killing your neighbor or not coveting his wife, or, I don’t know, whatever rules there that people come up with, because it was, it was just, you know, me and a few friends and maybe a, a cook and some mountains, and that was, that was

it. And

Scott: sometimes just yourself, like both you and I have, you know, and Mark, you know, ha have had a number of days in the mountains by ourselves and big objectives.

Steve: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott: you know, I mean, you bigger than Mark or I, but still, you know, for the time, you know, the stuff that, you know, I did young when I was young and Mark did when he was young, you know, those were, uh,

Steve: Yeah. So what was your motivation for going soloing the mountains, do you think? And then I’m gonna remind you of something you told me once, so be careful.

Scott: good. I, when I look back on, you know, when I would go solo in the mountains as opposed to rock climbing, ’cause you know, I did a, an

Steve: yeah. I’m specifically

Scott: Uh, well part partly it was, um, because I felt like I had to,

Steve: who,

Scott: there was this part of me that, you know, as part of my, you know, and I hate to, you know, use the Joseph Campbell Hero’s Journey, but I love that model.

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: And so I feel like that for me was part of the, um, was part of the deal, was that like, what is it like to be there by myself and, um, you know, what, what will I garner from those experiences? And uh, and then partly it was, um, ’cause I felt like it was badass to do that, and so there was a part of it that, um, wasn’t as pure as the other part, if that makes any sense.

Steve: Yeah.

Well, and I think that people need to realize that, or listening to this as younger climbers, that the culture of climbing has. Immensely, right? Like it used to be the thing to do

Scott: Right.

Steve: and it’s, and everybody did it to some,

some level. And that was just part of the thing. Like you’d had certain days and it didn’t matter if you’re, you know, Ron Calc or you’re John Backer of course, or you know, very famous for that.

They’re famous for all the hard

Scott: Pete Peter

Steve: roped climb they did too. Peter

Croft. Yeah.

But all those guys did a ton of free soloing. And we did. And

you know, if you look at the history of Alpinism, you know, whether it’s Walter Bedi on the north face of the Matterhorn is his crowning achievement at age 40. And then he walked away from Alpinism forever, or you know,

Scott: Paul Pru or,

Steve: yeah.

Paul’s Paul Proce is actually the best archetype of

Scott: Yes. Right,

Steve: because he was so pure, he had the free climb up and down everything and

not even use a rope to descend

so that, and be by himself.

So, you know, we started with, we start, that was almost the starting point. That was pre-World War

I when

Scott: And we, and we knew about that. You and I, and, and those of our ilk knew about that shit in those days. The kids don’t know what we’re talking about right

Steve: And so Cly being now with its. Culture coming mostly out of the climbing gym and social media and these other forces that shape our culture doesn’t, it’s not anchored to Paul Price. It’s,

it’s just not. And so that was a big, big part of what we did. And so when I, I wanted to continue talking about my experience writing, uh, beyond the mountain,

because one of the things that I really struggled with during those years was what you said, the city. And I was living in, you know, outside of Bend, Oregon, and

I set myself this schedule of writing a chapter a week for 12 weeks. And I had to, yeah. And so, and you know, I would find myself some nights, like three in the morning, either like on my motorcycle, on some dirt trail out in the middle of Central Oregon, all by myself, just ’cause I had to, like, I, I just needed a way to like, I don’t know, get my mind straight again and didn’t know what to do.

Or I’d be at the, you know, topless bar down, down the road,

right? Like, and, and those were kind of the, and I really struggled with like, how to manage that, you know, and in, in those environments, whether it’s a bar, the or, and of course this is in Oregon, right? So all the bars in Oregon are basically strip clubs to some degree. Or it’s, uh, which is true more, more strip clubs per capita in Portland, Oregon, than any other city in the world. And the reason that that is, uh, relevant is that it, it’s like the, this idea of temptation, of self-control, of boundaries, of what is, what is appropriate, what is inappropriate, what, what do I allow myself to do?

What do I, what do I not allow myself to do in, in the human environment? All of that stuff is kind of there all the time, whether it’s on a billboard with a, with a beautiful model, smoking a cigarette, I guess they don’t allow that anymore. But, or whether it’s, uh, you know, seeing some Red Bull stu stunt, uh, with a guy back flipping off a sand dune over, whatever, there, there’s just always, always, always, these, these, these, I don’t, uh, the word boundary isn’t quite the right word. These lines.

These lines that you have to decide whether you’re gonna cross or not. And in the mountains when it’s simple, you don’t have any of those lines. It’s just, and so that’s, that’s what, and, and so I think that this is exactly what you were talking about and how I identified with that as a 30 5-year-old. And by the time, remember I was 35, I cons, I was like, quote unquote world famous, right? Like I was the big shit, I was the big show. And so like, I had, I had this, uh, I had this that kind of poisoned my expectations, right? Because, and, and I, and you’re part of it because of your, the nickname you gave me. And then I had to like, and that messed with me too.

And I, you owe me a Popsicle or something for that too. But, but, but that was, that was really

Scott: Before I knew you, before I knew you,

Steve: Okay. You gotta tell the story now.

Scott: so, so before I knew you. And it was at the, after the gathering, I think, right? No, it was a little after

Steve: was later, I think.

Scott: Yeah, it was later. Uh, I think it was after you’d done the Fathers and Sons.

Steve: Could be, yeah.

Scott: was the deal. And we were, I can’t even remember where we were, but um, you know, people were talking about, uh, some of the Polish and the Slovak and the, and the Russians and, you know, the way that they were climbing in the Himalaya Cool roots they did, but how they did them and how much, you know, all of our ilk hated that. And, and then I, you know, said, well, you know, at least we have Steve House. And they’re like, what do you mean? And I’m like. Dude, he’s the great white hope for Alpinism. And that’s based off of a, a play, uh, that a very, you know, famous play and, and quite a great movie also about that, about a, actually about a black, uh, boxer who gets, uh, destroyed because he wasn’t supposed to be the best boxer and they wanted a great white hope to.

But in your case, I, you know, I coined that phrase because I mean, you guys used to, you know, talk about me being somewhat mystical, but like, I saw your future more than I think anyone else at the time did. And then when you started living up to it, then it became your moniker. And that wasn’t totally, wasn’t fair to you. And it was before I knew you as a human, you know, I just knew what you did and knew what you were like, you know, at least that part of you, you are like, I’m not saying that I knew, you know,

Steve: You saw that part of me. Yeah.

Scott: Yes. Yeah. And I, and I saw where it would go, and it felt to me like you weren’t gonna get killed.

Steve: and that’s, uh, so interesting because I think that this is something, I talked to Greg Penner, the

chairman of the board of Walmart a couple episodes ago, and he talked about how. He’s gotten to this point where he is done so many, he called it, uh, reps. I think

how he is just been through things. He’s, he’s been through so many relationships with people in life that he could spot it really fast.

Like he, he really has, he’s like, I don’t know. You know, I can’t remember how he explained it, but I think that this is sort of a thing that you were doing. You know, you’ve, you’ve seen a lot of climbers, you know what it takes, you know, and then you see somebody kind of, and, and and remember in these days it was Climbing magazine, and it is like every month you’d, or every other month you’d read something.

And

when you started to see a pattern, it’s like, oh, this guy’s like every two, three months he’s doing another route. And they’re always a little bigger. And then, you know, you start to, you start to, you, you saw a pattern and you

recognize it. And I think you’re also responding to me being American and these other climbers being

Polish and Russian and

Scott: Yeah. And not doing it right.

Steve: yeah,

yeah,

Scott: They weren’t doing it right. They weren’t at that time, you know, they weren’t doing it right. They did some great, uh, un no oxygen, you know, Himalayan climbing the poles, especially the checks, like those guys did some of that, but they didn’t do the hard alpine stuff in the Himalaya in good style, and I hated that.

And, uh, and so, you know, the, but I, I wanna go back to the thirties ’cause there was something that I wonder, um, about you, but that I know is a truth for me. And that’s that when I would come back from trips, uh, I would like, how can I have meaning in the city after, um, being part of God? Which is how it felt to me.

Like, how can I be here in this mechanized hum when I actually got to be attached to a power greater than me. And you know, mark used to call it the alpine vacuum cleaner. And you know, if your heart was right, if your, if you’d done the training, if your partnership was good, you start at the bottom and the alpine vacuum cleaner pulls you to the fucking summit.

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: And, um, and then you come back and there’s cars and, and electric bills and girlfriends and it’s shit. It all seems like shit compared to being, uh, you know, transcendent in the universe, I guess is the best,

uh, way that I can. So it was those two things for me. It was not only just the, like, trying to take the lessons that I’d learned there in terms of like, uh, what being a good human is and you know, like what is important in the world, you know, partnership and, you know, doing things with good style and, you know, trying to, you know, be the stronger person when the other person wasn’t the stronger person.

And all those lessons that, you know, we learned. Uh, but then, so that was one part in trying to. Put that out into the world when I was in the city. But then the other part, especially the first couple months when I was home, was this feeling of like, uh, you know, this shit’s for plebiscites only. This ain’t for me. And, uh, and you know, I’m a, I’m a plebiscite.

Steve: yeah. And, and I mean, we did feel superior,

right?

Scott: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Steve: And, we weren’t too shy about it either.

Scott: Nope, no.

Steve: And, and we made, and I think we left a lot of bad taste, a lot of people’s mouths by that. And here’s what I wish I could say to my 30 whatever year old self, especially like th I, I’m thinking especially about like after the Slovak,

Scott: Yeah.

Steve: we could talk about that in a moment.

But what I wish I could tell myself about that now is that that whole experience that you described as being transcendent and experiencing this feeling of connection to a higher power, being able to like summon the best in ourselves and in each other, and to become this kind of super organism and, and these mountains was incredible. And when I would come back to the, I don’t wanna call it real world ’cause both are very real,

but the, the, the home world, the home. Culture world and be back in town, be back home and be faced with the electric bills and the relationships and all those things. So what I wish I could tell myself is that that part was just as important as the first

Scott: Uh huh. Yes.

Steve: because at that part, at that time, I thought the only part that was important was the, was the part that happened in the climbing and that, and I would, I’ve somehow almost felt sorry for myself that I had to deal with these mundane things like electric bills and, and, and, and, listening to people

talk that I didn’t really want to talk to.

And I don’t know, like I, I, I just had such a chip on my shoulder after those trips and I wish I could have, somebody could have said like, Hey, this part is just as important as the other part. And it’s actually required to, that insight is required before you can integrate these experiences, all of these experiences together into a new you, which

is really what we’re after.

Scott: Yeah. I, I mean, it really was. And, and I, I also think that, um, doing that period of, uh, that kind of in town arrogance and lack of understanding, uh. Were an absolute requirement for me and I, and I wonder about you and about Mark, uh, to get to where we are today. Like, I really feel like the intensity of those experiences were, um, be beyond sort of the realm of humanness in, in really like, you know, and to and, and to. There isn’t a way, there isn’t a way for our, you know, our young minds to be able to understand that at that point. I just think that I could tell myself that at 30, but I don’t know that I could have listened. Um, and I had to, you know, break some things first and be like, I don’t like breaking shit anymore. You know, I’m sick of breaking shit and let’s not break shit anymore. Let’s find another way through this. And then the other piece for me that I consider once in a while, but maybe even especially more for you, is how grateful I am that, uh, we didn’t live in Europe.

Uh, cause we’d be dead.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: ’cause we would’ve just kept climbing because they would’ve given us money to go climbing and we wouldn’t have had to deal with the electric bills and we would’ve just kept doing it until we died. And, you know,

Steve: Would we though, ’cause I was very aware of that. Not, not that the, not that the like,

Scott: it.

Steve: I did have the opportunity to just climb all the time and, and didn’t, and actually this is partially related to the trading because I also realized like. Mentally and emotionally and spiritually. It took so much out of me to go that far out on my,

Scott: Yeah.

Steve: on my abilities spec curve.

Scott: A month of ice cream in movies for me.

Steve: yeah. That then when I came back, like I needed, I needed, like, I could only do that a couple times a year. That’s how I was. And

I remember, you know, having this conversation with Marco Appraisal and one year he did three Himalayan expeditions and that he was like, even he admitted that was too, too much

like immediate, like, while he was still on the third expedition, he was like, oh, this was a mistake.

Like, I should not have

tried to do so much. Like, I can’t, like I just, uh, you know, and so you, you need

Scott: Maybe you’re right.

Steve: you need this this other time too,

you know? Yeah.

Scott: But

Steve: I mean, that’s why I had, and and you’ve been like this too. I mean, that’s why I, you know, during that phase of my life, like I rode motorcycles a lot.

I had a wor, I had a woodworking shop. I built, like, I mean, I just built, I built a greenhouse. I

started raising cattle. I mean, I just, I like came up with hobbies ’cause I, you know, I’m an inter you know, and even, even today, it’s like working on other completely non climbing related things. ’cause you know, I, Randy Levin and I talked about this because he’s a, he’s been a pilot now for about 10 years, and I’m close to being done with my pilot license if

I ever finish it. And he was just talking about like. He just needs that in his life. Like he needs something to study and learn. And you’ve done that with like, whether it’s mountain biking or tennis or trail running, um, but you’ve

also done it Gravel bikes, gravel racing. or, um, also with the arts. You

know, like that’s one of the things like I’ve really appreciated and been trying to really dig into living in Europe is, you know, a, a, few weeks ago, or maybe it was two months ago now, went to Paris, had went to the Louvre.

I mean, like, I’d

never done that.

You know, like, well, I, I want to like, and I really appreciate those things now. Been going to operas, been going to metal concerts, like all the things just because that, that, that is something about my soul that needs that too. And is.

Scott: Those things helped me strive, like that was, I think I was lucky because from a little kid, you know, I had that, those, those influences in my life and then especially teenager in, in the twenties, those things that I would see. I understood. I think I told you that story about my. Friend’s dad who built muscle cars and uh, I only knew him as a welder.

He was a guy who taught me how to climb and, uh, taught me how to train for climbing. Right? Different, different guy than David Austin, Kurt Johnson. But his dad like built the cars that were on the cover of Hot Rod and he only worked on Pontiacs. And I had this old Pontiac, he’d work on it for me, basically for free.

’cause it was a Pontiac and one

Steve: And it was like, and he could do it in his sleep. ’cause he was

Scott: Yes. And so one time he needed my help because he was dropping the tranny and putting a new one in. And then I watched him that day, what he did, and he probably said 11 words to me in the entire six hours that he, you know, dropped the old and put the new one in. But I remember him seemingly to me at the time, throwing tools around the car. But now when I look back on it, and he was, you know, placing them and he got in the creeper once he got the car up and, you know, he never looked. He just would grab the tool and, and like this thing just happened and it was like magic. And then it was done and the car was back down on the ground and I drove home and I felt so fucking weird. And the next day I was like hanging out. I might have even been like on a run or something. ’cause I used to have good, I, you know, ative time there. Um. I was like, he’s an artist. And like from then on, from like the age of 21, from maybe 20, I was at that time, I realized every time I saw someone doing something like that, uh, that what they were doing.

And it, and it always inspired me and made me feel like I have this inside of me because I can see these others doing it. And for me, for so many years it was climbing

Steve: Hmm.

and

if you talk to a, a real car guy, a real mechanic, they think they, to them, those machines have souls and spirits,

Scott: Yes, yes.

Steve: They’re not just like, I don’t know, an odometer number and a year and a make or whatever. However, we reduce these things.

They’re like, the car has a, a personality. It

has like a, it’s like a, it’s a sentient being to

them, and they’re tuned into that and they connect with that and they get that experience

wrenching on cars that we get on on big mountains.

Scott: And you know, when I was in my twenties and I would go to the state fair and see the seed art, ’cause that’s a thing in Minnesota where they take, you know, corn and other seeds and make art out of it. And, you know, we would, you know, usually we were high, but maybe even if, if it was one of my sober periods, you know, we would revile that, you know, make fun of it.

Like, you know, now when I go, I have this deep reverence. I see the seed A and I think about that person and like, you know, what they were experiencing while they were in their perfect bliss. And one of my climbing, uh, early on climbing friends, um, was a, was ended up being one of the head engineers for Boeing making the planes. And, uh, he retired ’cause he hated the shortcuts they had started taking whenever it was 15 years ago and which now is caught up with them. Right. But he saw it back then. But when he retired, he started doing beading the tiny little glass beads. And he has these projects that take two years and, uh, they’re magnificent.

Steve: What are they? Gimme

Scott: They’re like

pictures. Yeah. Pictures. Like he’s a, he’s a canoeist, so he’ll have, you know, pictures I, uh, of, you know, I think he lives out east now, like on the, in Chesapeake or that area. And so there are these beads, you know, from like this big to like, you know, four

Steve: but with

colored beads

Scott: colored beads. Yeah. Like the

Steve: are, that are like sort of

Scott: So each one of those

Steve: kind of, but with, instead of sand, it’s beads and their colors.

Scott: Yes. And, and they make pictures.

Steve: Wow.

Scott: Right. And it’s so, so all I’m saying about that is that, um. I got lucky with Kurt Johnson’s dad teaching me that without teaching me that back when I was 21.

Steve: Right.

Scott: And, and it was exactly the opposite of what I was taught by my Shakespeare scholar dad.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: You know, there was only fine art and it was only these four things and, you know, modernist artists were shit and like that. And, uh, and so, you know, to have this other alternative reality given to me, like literally just given to me, uh, changed my life.

Steve: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And you saw this sort of hypocrisy of art is expression that it can only follow these four sets of rules,

Scott: yes.

Steve: the Yeah.

Scott: Right.

And so, you know, I love humanities. I still think that kind of art is amazing. Like you said, opera, classical music, you know, fine, fine art, um, you know, but, but all the other things that people put the same kind of, uh, soul and intention into, and discipline into, uh, you know.

Steve: yeah. I challenge anyone to watch a skilled orchestra live and not just feel like completely moved. Right. It’s just, just, just a human coordination and all the, you know, centuries of. Collective practice and everything that goes into being able to do something like that is a, as a group of 50 or 80 people is, is just un unbelievable, you know?

And, and it’s the same feeling I get watching the Cure too. You know, it’s like what they’re able to con conjure out of thin air and,

and, and create live in front of you. You know, it’s, it’s, it is magic, you know, and it’s hard not to feel reverence for that. One of the topics that we’ve kind of been dancing around that I want to drill in on with you, uh, because it’s always kind of, I guess I’ve always wanted to ask you about this is identity

and, you know, you were able to walk this line with your identity as a climber, but not, that wasn’t ever all you were, and I felt like I often had to give up all other aspects of my identity because that’s what the world wanted me to be. You know, they didn’t want me to be anything other than an alpinist. And I felt a lot of pressure with that. And one of the things that I, I went to Evergreen State College at Olympia and those people who know it will know that it’s a school known for having a lot of kind of, uh, hippies, let’s say.

Scott: Hippies

Steve: One of the, one of the things I realized there, I had a roommate for several years of college and, uh, he was a Republican.

He wore a, a suit, like a sport coat at least, and a red tie and a white shirt to class. Everyone else is including me, hair out of their shoulders, Birkenstocks flip flops or if you had shoes at all. And I realized like this guy was the only actual rebel. Like the rest of us

were all saying the same thing.

Yeah. My, my roommate Chris, we’re all saying the same thing. We’re all thinking the same thing. And it, and it was, and it became our identity. And if, if somebody else said it, like this group think would sort of take over and all of a sudden everybody said it. And I watched that happen and I always have struggled with his I identity so often sort of becomes a surrender of ourselves

and how it took me a long time after looking back, I didn’t have a lot of hindsight before I started to see that.

I mean, I felt it kind of in my gut, like, what is off like with this, this is weird. Like he’s the, he’s the only one who’s actually got anything in like of his own mind to say here. And everybody’s of course completely against him.

Scott: yeah,

Steve: But they’re also professing to be super open-minded and liberal and open to everything. And I just found those and I, I think we all experience that in some way. Like it could

be totally different circumstances for somebody else. So where, where do you place, how did you manage your identity, both as a climber, but also as a husband, as as a businessman? How did you, how did you do that? How did you have all these different identities?

Scott: Um, I tried, you know, I, I, I think that, um, the older I got, the less of a chameleon I, I was, ’cause I wanted people to like me ’cause I didn’t like myself. And then I started liking myself in my thirties and then I didn’t need that anymore. Like literally, I will say that, that was part of my journey, right?

For sure.

But, but even in my twenties, my, especially my, like when that summer in 1980, um, I brought a, uh, ghetto blaster little one with me in 40, 40, 50 cassettes. And, uh, when I was hanging out in the Rockies campground, um, with Dave Meyers, the guy who I did temple with, there were six of his friends and they were Evergreen knights, right? Uh, and I listened to Jazz and classical, uh, you know, I didn’t have a huge amount of cassettes for that, but I had Miles Davis Blue and Keith Jart clone concerts. And Beethoven’s seventh, which is at the time, was one of my favorites. Uh, and uh, something else, one of the concertos. And every time I would turn that on, uh, those guys would all be like, turn that shit off. They wanted to listen to all the punk rock and Roxy Music and Brian Eno and all those cool cassettes that I had. And, uh, I’m like, fuck that. Like I don’t have to just be a punk rocker. I’m a fucking punk rocker. Look at my cassettes. Like I don’t have to get a haircut to be a punk rocker. I’m not gonna get a Mohawk. I’m not gonna dress a certain way other than maybe black t-shirts ’cause it’s simple. Um, but that isn’t, I don’t wanna be one dimensional, like I wanna listen to the music that I wanna listen to, and I don’t give a fuck if you don’t like jazz or classical music. ’cause I do. And guess whose ghetto blaster it is? Mine. Did you bring one? No, you did not. So fuck off.

And, uh, and I always had that, that ability to, like, if my mind told me that it was the right answer, I, I tried to listen to that. And, um, and so, you know, as a parent, I had a really terrible, uh, um, instruction manual from my parents.

And, you know, my mom was prescription pill, uh, and was sick from when I was four years old to when she died when I was 22, at least a couple months a year. And, uh, I, I don’t think I’m, I, I guess I’m just gonna say this out loud, came from a family of sexual abuse, which didn’t happen in my family, thank God. You know, like both she and my dad had weird things like that. My dad was covert and she was overt and all her sisters and maybe her brothers anyway, so I didn’t have an instruction manual for my kids, so I made a lot of errors.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: Um, but I also had this, these, this way that, that, um, having my own personality really helped me as a father. So like, one of the things that I believed was that, um, my parents said no to me all the time, and I just did whatever the fuck I wanted. ’cause if all they say is no, and I’m independent, you know, I’ll, I’ll take the consequences.

I’m just gonna do what I want ’cause there isn’t any right answer and they’re gonna hate on me no matter what I do. So with my kids, I, I really worked with them to say, uh, I can’t say yes to this. You have to change the question or to tell ’em like, this is my least favorite part of being a parent. I hate this. I hate doing this. You know, come up with another alternative for me. ’cause I don’t wanna be, you know, saying no to you and their parents drink. I can’t let you stay over overnight. If you want to be there till nine, I’ll pick you up. She can always stay over here if you wanna stay with your third friend whose parents I know are cool, we can do that.

But I, you know, I can’t say yes to this thing. And, uh, and I think with both my kids, that was really helpful,

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: because it was a way that I saw the world that I wasn’t gonna, uh, go either extreme with, like, I wasn’t gonna be the super fun dad, uh, and I wasn’t gonna be what my parents were, you know? And so, um, and then, uh, I, I think the, being in the film business, you know, when I, for the 15 years that I did that work, whether it was, you know, lighting technician or when I was rigging or when I was shooting adventure film, um, there’s a way that you have to, uh, you have to, after a while at least know where your strengths and weaknesses are. so, you know, trying to do the thing that you’re not good at isn’t gonna help the group. You know, it’s, it’s, you know, like I, I was never good. Um, really technical dolly pushing, like I could push the dolly at the right speed, but part of the deal is lifting and lowering the pedestal with the camera on it at certain marks at certain spots so that they could have the camera in the perfect spot for them to be able to do that.

And I was never that great at that. I was okay, you know, I got better. But like, I was always like, no, maybe, maybe what I need to do is be the best boy where I’m making sure that we have every single thing that we need, or maybe I need to be the pre rigger who comes in and does all the rigging work at, you know, up in the catwalk, uh, or even in the steel.

And so I, I think there’s a way that, um, I learned from film and from climbing that I don’t care what you want, this is what you actually have. And, and, and I, you know, and so if the pitch is, um, breaking trail in, you know, deep snow mark’s doing that, doing those two pitches, and if the pitch is, you know, really hard mix climbing and you’re not there, that’s my job.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: like I was better at Mark than that.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: And, and so it’s cool to want to be things, but you know, if you really want to be successful and have your, the people that you’re with be successful, you have to. Know what that is. And I think that goes along with the same kind of thing of saying, um, uh, you know, I don’t give a shit if you don’t like, you know, classical music, you know, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna go along with you and be like, fuck all other music ’cause punk rock. Right. I don’t care about that. That isn’t important to me. And because I didn’t have the kind of cadre that you guys did living out west, I didn’t, I wasn’t subject to that as much. So it was easier for me to develop that way, uh, because I wasn’t part of it.

Steve: That’s a great point. And I think that, you know, for example, whenever I’m in Shaman, um, which isn’t very often, and part of the reason it’s not very often is because it’s like there’s too much energy there for me and too many, too much loss and too many, lots of other things,

lots of trauma related experiences there. But it’s also like even I remember being there, um, I remember one day, when was this? I was, it, it was, it was before my accident, I think it was 2009. And Eck and I were climbing together and. We were just going, and it was kind of bad conditions, it was good skiing, and we did some ski. You

know, it was kind of one of those scenes and we’d like go down afterwards and we’d, uh, it would be three or four o’clock and we’d want to go to the, you know, to the, to the bar and have a, you know, for him it was a coffee for me, it was a, a beer, but, and like, you know, there’d be, there’d be literally paparazzi, you know, like,

Scott: Yeah.

Steve: and I was just like, wow.

Like I don’t, I don’t appreciate this. Like, I don’t, I just wanna sit here and talk to my friend, like, about things that I talked with my friends about. And it could be okay if we’re not planning the next great, like, climb that we’re thinking about doing or attempting to do, we could just also talk about, I don’t know, politics or, or, or an ex-girlfriend or,

or somebody’s, some other mutual

Scott: Maybe even a little bit of boy gossip,

Steve: just some boy gossip or music or like,

Scott: right?

Steve: you know, a book we’re reading or a million other, I mean, Juliana had lots of amazing conversations

that like, they were also philosophical and you know, about sports and training and all kinds of different topics.

And you, and you, you couldn’t, it didn’t feel like that was allowed. Um. ’cause everybody had to know, what did you do? What do you, what did you just do? Because we must have done something amazing, right?

Scott: Yeah.

Steve: House and Elly Deck and what are you doing tomorrow? It was just like, it was, it’s really exhausting, right?

Like, it’s really tiring. And so I understand, and one of the things I wanna tell you this, that I, I think one of your superpowers as a friend, and I consider you a truly great friend of mine, is that because you bring that self-love and you are able to, as you just said a minute ago, if your, if your heart tells you something, you’re willing to speak it. And a lot of people aren’t. But when, when people as a rule, I think are hesitant and myself included, to always do that because we’re afraid of being judged or being ostracized or included in a group that maybe we don’t think we belong with or whatever the thing is. But being around you, I always feel more empowered to just be me. And that’s, that’s a pretty cool superpower that I think you have as a friend because you’re, you, you empower your friends to be more of the true selves just by being you not. It’s no trick, it’s no wand, it’s nothing. You do, you just, you just be s Scott and you have your, you know, and you tell your stories and you, and you say what’s on your mind and you have your opinion and you maybe change it. You know, all those things that you do, just being you, it’s, it’s incredibly uplifting for me. That’s my experience of you. So just thank you for that. That’s amazing.

Scott: I am gonna say that’s one of the sweetest compliments I’ve ever had in my life.

Steve: Oh,

Scott: Thank you.

Steve: you’re welcome. And another thing that you’ve done is you are the first man that wasn’t my father, whoever told me that you love me and you don’t say it just sometimes you say it all the time

and and you, I think it’s a perfect example of this because I think we’re all thinking it, right? We like, I mean, it’s part of, we haven’t talked about this idea of the brotherhood as you called it, and, and albinism and how we had, we had these, like, you know, I mean, you know, there’s other more derisive terms that people would use.

Like we had these like,

Scott: Great. Good for them

for it. You know that, right?

Steve: yeah. Completely.

And you, that’s a perfect example where you just set it and it was almost like to hear that it was such a relief. Like, oh man, I, I thought I was the only one. And like, like you’re like, man, I know I, I know. I feel this love for these

these, these guys. And to have you just like tell me that you love me. I was like, oh, thank God, because I love you too. And to have that be normalized within our, our peer group was something that was pretty amazing. It really like helped me a lot in understanding that I have hu a lot of value as a human. Even if it’s only to like a few people, that’s enough for me. It doesn’t have to be for the whole, to the whole world. It just has to be like you said, to a two few people that I actually care about.

Scott: yes. So I was talking, uh, with Mark again, mark Twight, um, when I was out there and, uh, I, the year and a half ago, or a year and ago, a year ago or so. And I said, you know, when I look back on my climbing career, I believe that the most important thing that I did for climbing was to bring the word love.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: And so when you, when you just spoke that, um, that that is exactly what I believe my value, uh, in the climbing community was.

And I think that the kids that, um, like Kyle Dempster had this article of one time about, you know, kind of thinking that the brotherhood was all serious. Uh, ’cause he didn’t know us. And you didn’t know how, you know, we, uh, I gave birth to a two pound guaranteed outcome climber, and we don’t have to, we don’t have to go into anything other than that.

But, but I, I feel like they get that because it came down through us, even though they don’t know it. Does that make sense? Like, I think some of the, those guys

Steve: became normalized in culture.

Scott: Yes, In that culture, in that small chunk of, of culture, it became normalized to like, have those feelings and say those feelings. Uh, you know, someone as, um, tact turn as, as like Conrad, you know, when I would say that to him and like kind of watch him melt a little bit.

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: And, you know, that to me, um, I said that because I felt like it was super, super important to have that be part of, uh, a normalized re relationship with these people that I, I loved like, so deeply and was, and you know, my, I I know you’ve heard me say this before, but you know, my, um, my deal when I was climbing, uh, when I wasn’t climbing by myself was that I couldn’t let my partners down.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: And those pitches that I led in the mountains that were. Uh, you know, for sure life threatening. Um, I did those because I, I couldn’t let you down. I couldn’t let Mark down. I couldn’t let Bill Bancroft down. You know, I couldn’t let jojo down. I couldn’t let Bill, he, uh, Bruce Hendricks down. I couldn’t let those people down.

Steve: Has it become about other values now? Has it become about money or status or awards?

Scott: What it became about for, uh, 20 years was, uh, and this was hard for me, and I, you know, and I know that I, uh, how do I put this exactly? I chose to, uh, walk on some of my values to be able to have, um, a financially verdant reality for my kids.

Steve: Hmm?

Scott: And so, you know, I started the business became really successful at a business that if done in a normal way, I find really distasteful. Um, but the way that I did it was I had to figure out a different way to do it. And so,

Steve: you do?

Scott: yeah, so what I did was looked never at the short term and always looked at building relationships by helping people. And, um, God, I just hate to even saying this, but most of the time when I was in room with, in a room with the dealer, I was the smartest guy in the room. And I have a really great mind for big picture. I have a really unique math trick where I can do large sums in my head and I’m a humanist. And so I was able to take those three things and come up with ways for businesses to be more effective. So these dealers that, you know, were, started their business in the 1980s and barely had a computer, we came in and gave them numbers and told ’em exactly when to order, what to order, how to order, why to order. And we would come in and like help them set up, uh, shooting videos, you know, right when that first started, so that they would have an online present that would drive people to their store and make them really successful. And like for one example, I probably shouldn’t say their name out loud, but I’m going to, um, Bartlett Manufacturing is in Marlett, Michigan.

And when I took over that company, it had like $12,000 in sales a year in Petzel. And uh, when I left it was 650 to $800,000 a year. And part of it was that I sat down with the owner and said, I have a little bit of money, and uh, this company just went out of business or was bought by another company. And the reason that they were successful was videos. I want you guys to start making videos. And they did, they hired a really handsome young, uh, Mexican American, um, who spoke two languages. And so every time he made a arborist video, it was, um, dual, you know, English and then Spanish or Spanish and then English. And, and I’m just saying that because being a reptile wasn’t in my blood.

Like I tried to do that with Black Diamond and I hated it. But when I started doing it for myself and as an, as my own company, um, I was able to do it in a way that still felt ethical. And I did a shit ton of demos and workshops and training, which a lot of agencies didn’t do.

Steve: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott: So I guess what I’m saying is that, um, I was the businessman that was drinking your blood, like the kids in art school said they would. And, uh, in a way, you know, like I, I made an immense amount of money over a 20 year period so that I could, you know, put my kids through college so that they didn’t have any debt and have a, you know, good retirement egg and have a house that’s paid off. And, and you know, I did that by being smart, but I also paid my employees really well and gave them absolute freedom.

Steve: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott: So, uh. So I did that, you know, and I used the principles that I learned as an alpinist, um, and as an artist to do it in a way that, you know, I could do it so that it didn’t destroy my soul completely. And every night in a hotel room after 10 years was pretty much terrible. And I did it for my kids and for my future,

Steve: That

you’re living now, that you’re

Scott: that I’m living now

Steve: yeah. And for a long time to come, right?

Scott: and for a long time to come. Yeah.

Yeah.

And 20 years isn’t much to give the world, you know, to let the world have their hands on you. As I, that’s how I would put it, is that, by the way, that’s my, uh, how it feels to me is like, you know, coming over and just being able to put their hands on me. That’s, that’s the, the spiritual feeling that it is to, you know, work in business for me.

Steve: just trying to think how to, how to pull these things together, because I, I think that there, you know, the, the one thing that I’m aware of with this season of Voice of the Mountains is that I’m cherry picking, right? Like, you’ve been successful. Randy Levitt was successful, Greg Penner was successful.

You know, Peter Metcalf was successful and I’m, I’m not talking to any of the people that tried really hard. And weren’t successful for in, in many, for, and in many cases could be just because of the gods felt like

Scott: Yes.

Steve: screwing with them. Right?

And, and it was nothing about their aptitude or their personalities or their intelligence or their time, or their place, or their resources or their connections. It was just the Greek

gods.

Scott: to Greek gods then? So, so the, going back to the hero’s journey, if you look at almost all of the Mythic Greek heroes, they all had shit second acts. I mean, EDUs pulled his eyes out. Jason was poisoned by his wife. Uh, Heriz was poisoned by his wife. Um, uh, thesis ended up dissolute and, and, you know, absolutely unhappy and, and thra and race. And if you get to do what we did, if you get to do the hero’s journey. Out of every successful second act, there’s, you know, eight or nine that aren’t, because it’s really, really hard to come back from that and to find a way in the city that, you know, makes sense, that has some resonance that, uh, you know, doesn’t make you just want to drink the rest of your life away or whatever, disillusioned in some way.

And so I think that, um, innately what we did set us up for failure in our forties and fifties, uh, because what’s ever gonna compare to that?

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: And, and I think that we have to find out what it is that compares to that. And I’m gonna say that having kids isn’t that, but it can be like, there’s no guarantee that having kids is gonna, you know, bring you joy and, uh, is gonna help you transcend uh, you know, that sorrow and grief that we all feel, uh, leaving behind something so magical.

And, um, uh, there isn’t words for it, like what it really is. There aren’t any words to describe what it really is that you leave behind.

Steve: yeah.

yeah.

Scott: And, and so, you know. For me, uh, I really love my kids and, um, I wanted to make that true. And for me, I loved winter climbing still. And so for the past 20 years, I’ve worked really hard at winter climbing and kept my skills to a level that, yeah, I mean, you know, what I’ve done in the past 20 years is, uh, nothing short of extraordinary for someone my age.

I, and I don’t mean to toot my horn, but you know, you were there for, you know, when I was 50, whatever it was, 54 at URA and took six place. I mean, that kept my interest, but I could do it in a way that I knew I would come home to my kids.

Steve: Hmm, hmm.

Scott: And, uh, and I tried not to do any of the XR or the X Routes anymore,

but like I said, this winter I did that one.

And it’s like, that was fucked. That was bullshit. I’m never, I really believe I’m never gonna do that again.

Steve: I, I have had that experience, you know, with my climbing last years where, you know, obviously I’ve dialed it way down, but even then with the little climbing I’ve done, especially when I’m out and I’m taking care of someone, whether it’s my wife or my kids or, or whatever, and I’m, and I’m up and I’m just, I know too.

It’s like, I know too much. You know, I, I know all the things that could go wrong. I know all the things

that could go right

and, and then usually do, but I also know all the things that could, could go wrong. And just like, I, I, I just get up there and I’m like, that’s not worth it. Like, I don’t wanna deal, like I, you know, I, I don’t want to be in those situations anymore.

Scott: Yeah. Yeah. And, and we, we diverged on that for sure because, you know, like I said, I, you know, big roots in Norway and, you know, going to Icefall Brook and the big trips in Quebec on, you know, those are, you know, serious for many people they would be the culmination of a career, I guess, you

Steve: yeah. Yeah. Those are big, hard, remote ice climbs and mixed climbs.

I mean, that doesn’t, ice climbs won’t get bigger than those, honestly.

I mean, they just don’t. So, I mean, that’s a, that’s the pinnacle of the sport. And you’ve always been great at ice climbing and mixed climbing. That’s always been something you’ve been really good at.

So,

Scott: yeah,

Steve: you know, there’s part of me that is jealous of you. And, and there’s also, like, I’ve also, you know, tried and

gone out and been like me,

Scott: Right.

Steve: I did have really fun, a lot of fun one time a couple years ago going out and like, it was a route that had only been climbed once in a local guide.

And I just had to follow. That was, that was actually fun. I like, I liked that, I liked to be guided up. It was like zero risk, but I still gotta have all the fun of the climbing. And it was a sa, you know, safe and safe day and all the other things. But So how do you, you know, I think it’s so interesting, this whole I. This whole idea that we kind of started with was, I mean, that you hated yourself

and that you had to find a way to love yourself, to respect yourself, to care about yourself, to think that you have something to contribute, to think that you have a future, to think that you, before you even can get to like a purpose, right?

Like a lot of times people just jump straight to the purpose. And I’m like, well, do you even like yourself? You have to like yourself first, then you can work on those things. But, and then going from that and, and, then, and then, you know, the reason that you recognized that the way to build a good business was to help people first and to, to take that long-term viewpoint, is that you, because you learned that already the hard way

in working on yourself

because that had taken whatever, 20 plus years

and you had

Scott: plus years.

Steve: Yeah.

And I mean, And present continuous, right? It’s

never really, it’s really, yeah, we we’re all works in progress, right? But that, that is gonna continue. And one of the things that I think, that I think about. And I was just telling you before we started recording how I went this last weekend, I went to the American Alpine Club Annual Dinner. And even though there were small interactions, just like keeping those little sparks of relationships alive with friends that I’ve known for 20, 30 years, I just, you know, it’s, it’s like I, that’s, that’s where I’m like mining now for that inspiration and connecting with you through the, you know, this project, which, which is entirely a selfish project with my own sort of creative interest.

And, and, and, and also somehow I’m hoping that by talking to you and all these other people that have been through this, that we can, we can maybe look back all of it and, and come up with some threads and say like, okay, these are, these are some themes that went through all of these conversations

and these are some lessons that we can all become a little more aware of.

That’s my, my hope. And you certainly contributed so much to our community in bringing the love and just Yeah, I think

Scott: And for me, the other thing that I brought was, um, levity. Like I was, I was always able to have, uh, humor when, no matter how bad things were,

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: and, uh, because to me. That love that I felt for my partners, and, and I hope this doesn’t sound too weird, but that love that I felt for my partners allowed my, the inner child that got so beat up when I was a kid to feel safe.

So even when I was in a place that physically wasn’t safe, you know, on a tiny ledge, in a bibbler tent, whatever it was, I felt safe spiritually with the people that I loved. And because I felt safe, my inner kid always liked having fun and laughing. And so I really believe that that was a huge part of how I was able to, uh, be a good team member in any, uh, group that I was climbing in was because I

Steve: and this

Scott: safe with you guys.

Steve: I mean, I’m no developmental psychologist, but you know, first you have to love your parents and have a secure connection. Then come your friends, and then comes you. I think

that’s kind of the way it, it works,

at least in my experience. And so you a, being able to, to do that and like, uh, pay it forward, pay it backwards, however you wanna look at it, pay it forwards to your own kids and to me and the rest of the community been amazing.

Scott: Yeah. And, and like I said, it doesn’t happen unless that like I, unless I feel safe. And I think that as another last little piece for me now that I’m we’re talking is that that is part of why I kept my group so small is because my experiences in Yosemite and in Boulder were like, I don’t wanna give my heart to these people.

These people are gonna trash me. You know, just like happened, you know, to me when I was in junior high and just like happened to me with my parents and I want to have community with these fewer people where I can feel safe and I can feel love so that my, that kid can come out and have a really great time, even in terrible circumstances.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: And I think being in the small arena, like no arena, ’cause like, you know, I mostly climbed by myself, right? Uh, and certainly did all my training by myself. And so there was this way that I, I had these, you know, 10, 15 friends that I could trust.

And I wasn’t interested in anything other than that, and I think most people are willing to compromise because they think they’re supposed to.

Steve: and I think that is where I feel like it’s become too much about status and money and.

Scott: You think?

Steve: Instagram likes or, and because that’s an external validation, like the first thing you’re talking about is also a form of external validation, is the validation of your friends

Scott: Yep. Yep. Yeah.

Steve: on the next, on the, the next level of that is feeling safe with them. And that used to be all there was. And at some point, and I just didn’t figure it out yet, where if I, first of all, if I’m, if this is true, and second of all, if, uh, if there is a, a tipping point there where as a culture and at least climbing has, has shifted too far to being about likes and money and status and fame, and we’re not about respect and these, these original kind of virtues that, that we aspire to.

Because the way I grew up with albinism, especially after I’d been in Slovenia, was like the ultimate thing was to go off and do the hardest route in the world with one other person and come back and tell no one

Scott: Yeah.

Steve: was perfection. That’s what everybody was like,

you know, and like that, that’s not part of the conversation.

That’s not the zeitgeist now. And so I just, I don’t know how we get back there. I don’t know if we should either. I mean, I’m, who am

I,

to put my values on, on, on, on the younger generation?

Scott: the the kids that, um, both sets that did the Slovak,

uh, and their kids meaning their thirties like we were, right.

Steve: Yeah. Rob Smith

and Michael

Scott: yeah. All those guys, right? And, and, and I’ve met a couple of them and, um, I feel like they know they have to do a minimum of that. Does that make sense?

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: Uh, but that, that isn’t their main thing. Uh, but I think that they’re in the vast minority.

Steve: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s fair. I think you’re right. I think I’m probably unfairly judging them and, and, and I’m casting the net too wide. I mean,

Scott: I think that if Balen had lived and had gotten to hang out with, ’cause I think Mark would’ve hung out with him and hung out with Mark more, I think he would’ve found something different.

Steve: mm.

Scott: And uh, ’cause Mark wouldn’t have hung out with him if he didn’t have some, didn’t have heart. Right. Mark would’ve just been like, I mean, of the,

Steve: right through that, but if you didn’t have heart, you wouldn’t be soloing

those roots.

Scott: Right. Yeah. Right. And, and you know, the ultimate dismissive human is Mark twice. So, you know, if he’s gonna hang with you, you know, you may not be, you know, evolved fully, but he sees some potential in you.

You know, so, and, and I felt sad about that, you know, that whole thing, you know, uh, was like, um, something out of a dystopian future.

Steve: Yeah. And what, for the audience that doesn’t know, Balen Miller was a incredible young

climber who soloed a, a route that had never been repeated that Mark Twight and Randy Ratcliffe did. And what year was that? 88.

Scott: 88.

Steve: Um, then went on to do a bunch of other incredible climbs, and he repelled off the end of his rope trying to free a, a, a jammed piece of gear on the top of El Cap. And it was sort of live streamed on, on the internet because people were, had the, the lens on him when he was doing that, and he fell to

Scott: I think he was doing it too, though. I think he was live streaming.

Steve: Oh, he was too.

Scott: Yeah.

Steve: Okay. Uh, and so, yeah, that, that’s, I mean, when I, I, I, I couldn’t, I, I made sure I didn’t see that

Scott: Me neither.

Steve: because I didn’t, couldn’t have mark on my soul just,

Scott: No, no.

Steve: uh,

so, so tragic.

Scott: you and I have both seen mayhem and I, you know, I, I, when I, when I stumble upon it and I can be of help, I’m more than happy to do that. And I, you know, I, I hated it every time that I had to, you know, help some injured climber. Like, it was always shit for me. And, uh, and certainly the, you know, the recoveries that Mark and I had to do when we were on patrol, you know, it’s, uh, it’s awful and I don’t wanna share that with anyone or have that part of, be part of the, the dialogue about anything other than to say, um, it’s cool to, you know, die climbing, everyone dies. Um, but it’s better if you live.

Steve: Yeah,

Scott: Uh, you know, climbing’s worth it if you live, and maybe it’s worth it if you die too. How would I know? I, you know, it hasn’t been my experience and we can’t talk to those who died climbing. But, um, you know, when he, when it happened, it was the first time I ever thought to myself, this is shit Fuck climbing.

I hate it. I really felt that for like a, you know, half a day. And then I was like, oh my God, Scott, are you kidding me? You know, your time with Mark, you’re talking with Bill Bancroft, you’re talking with jojo, you’re talking with Steve. You know your time with all these friends that you had and all those amazing things.

No, fuck that. That’s not true. And then I was like, yeah, it’s, it’s all cool if you live.

Steve: hmm,

hmm.

Scott: uh, you know,

Steve: Yeah. You know, that’s what, uh, you know, Barry and I were talking about this a few years ago and saying like, success is dying of old age in bed, surrounded by your family and loved ones, you know,

Scott: as an alpinist. Yeah,

Steve: As an output. Yeah,

Scott: Yeah,

Asist, that is definitely the,

you know,

Steve: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What would you tell the 20-year-old Scott if you were here?

Scott: I would say that, um, the path that you’re on. Isn’t knowable and it’s worth staying on. And, um, the lessons that you are going to learn are gonna be so long and hard fought that if you knew about them now, you wouldn’t go on. And the desserts are gonna be so rich that, um, you can’t, you can’t imagine it now.

Steve: Hmm

Scott: And I would say that every chance you get to be kind to someone and to tell someone that you care about them or that you love them, take the time to do that.

Steve: hmm. Yeah. The, the, the old adage that, uh, I asked God for wisdom and he gave me problems to solve.

Scott: I have this thing that I like to say, which is, um, never, uh, heard someone that’s 80 years old say that they wish they’d traveled less, uh, wish they spent less time with their kids, wish that they had less sex, uh, or wish they hadn’t been as kind. Never heard an 80-year-old person say that. So

I think that, um, we can be safe in assuming that those things are all, uh, you know.

Steve: they had planted less trees, proverbially and

Scott: Yes. Right? Yes. All of that.

Steve: All that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, thank you, Scott. It’s been incredible as always. You know, he’s just been such a good friend and such a, such a, you know, the best friends are also our mentors, and you’ve certainly been that for me. I’ve learned so much from you, not the least of which, that it’s okay to express my love for my friends and just as I do for my family.

And, uh, it’s, and how these relationships that we built through shared struggle, I mean, here we talked for over two hours and we didn’t really talk about climbing very much at all. We certainly didn’t at least talk about any of the climbing that we did together. I mean, maybe that’s a, that’s another conversation for another time. Um, if anyone and, and, and no one’s probably interested in it except us. And that’s why we have this relationship.

Scott: Yeah. And, and I, I know that, um, it may not have seemed so at the time, but you were definitely a mentor to me, uh, and, you know, the same way that Mark was and, you know, you guys, um, were not just my friends, but watching you particularly, uh, strive was, and. I always take it out of the climbing arena. Just like that passion to strive that you have was always incredibly inspiring to me. And, uh, so, you know, I, I really appreciate that and the fact that you, um, we’re willing to hang with both Mark and I who are, you know, we’re not, we’re so insular as friends that breaking into that trio isn’t, isn’t easy for anyone and you did it seamlessly. So

Steve: I just let, I was able to let you be, you and I was let able to, like you guys didn’t feel threatened by me, neither of you. Right? Like,

or nor did your friendship feel threatened by my friendship with you and my friendship with like,

and we were all, I think that was a big part of it. I do have to do this one thing that, so on the Slovak. After the repentance, remission pitches. And we, and we did this little, we, we followed the original. We’re the only ones to have actually followed the original route on the

Slovak direct. Everyone else did the Mahoney variation that Kevin and,

and Ben pioneered straight off of the top of that first repentance, remission ice strip.

And we did a little rappel kind

Scott: 2, 2, 2. Diagonal repels.

Steve: Yeah. And then, and you had to help Mark. ’cause you know, you and I had done some Yosemite big wall

climbing. We knew how to do that. He had no, you were down there. But then remember that pitch off of the ledge that I led,

Scott: Yeah,

Steve: and there’s a picture that Mark took, I’ll have to put it in the, in the show notes.

I think Mark took it. I think, mark, did you have a camera? I can’t

Scott: yeah, yeah. Oh, I took a bunch of pictures. Yeah.

Steve: so one of, I don’t know. I, I don’t remember who took it, uh, because it’s all in one folder now.

I don’t know who took what. But, but that moment, like, that climb, remember I was like, it was, we’re just, we were on this granite ramp and there was this little overhang.

It wasn’t huge, but it was, you know, maybe chest high.

And I had to get up and get into these kind of flaring cracks. And it was. Dark. It was, I mean, as it gets in

Alaska, it was middle of the night, it was cold. We’d already, we’d been climbing for a while and we were, and I especially, it was like, I, I something, that moment for me

just carries this immense weight, weight in my, if I like, weigh all the moments of my life. That moment has a lot more mass than almost any other moment. And the reason is because I climbed up through this little roof and I got, I finally got a first real piece of gear in

above us. And I just remember looking at you and I think that’s when the picture was taken. ’cause there’s this picture in my mind, but I don’t know what’s my memory anymore. What’s the picture? ’cause it was

so long ago. But, uh, there was just this like real feeling that for me, that we were all somehow one. And that sounds crazy. It sounds, and I can’t even, I experienced it. I can’t even really describe it, but. I felt like this immense responsibility. ’cause I, rightly or wrongly, I thought that I was the only one that could lead that pitch.

And uh, I was the only one. And that we had to decline that to survive.

Scott: yeah.

It was right before we got to that ice field

Steve: yeah,

Scott: where we got, you know?

Steve: where we got lost

Scott: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Steve: another story, but like, it was the pitch getting up to that

ice field and it got easier as I got into it. And one, but it was quite hard there for the first, I don’t know, 40 or 50 feet

off of the belay. And my feet cut out at one point and I kind of caught myself. Yeah, we all remember that. It is more than just a moment. It was, I don’t know, half an hour or an hour. I don’t have no idea how much time went on, but that experience, particularly that little bit of climbing, of all the climbing on that 8,000 foot

base or whatever it is, that 25 meters of climbing really profoundly changed me and how I felt about other people. And because for the first time I felt really connected to other people

Scott: Uhhuh.

Steve: in a, in a profound way that I would just describe as almost like religious or mystical or, or something.

And I’d never felt that before.

Scott: So do, that’s, I think what I was trying to say to you when I said I always felt like I had to do the pitch because I had to uphold for my partners. ’cause I felt like there was this connection in sacredness that, um, like I couldn’t, it wasn’t about right or wrong or it, it was about the partnership. And, uh, and I know that you felt that, you know, at that pitch because I, you know, that was, that was the spiritual and physical crux of the root

Steve: Hmm,

Scott: for us. And, um, you know, if I had done it, which, uh, I would’ve gone in the groove to the left.

Steve: hmm,

Scott: That, that weird chimney ice thing, and I felt like I could climb that.

Uh, but the way you took it, where you went straight, do you remember that? To the left, there was like a groove. I felt like I could have gotten into that groove and like chimney climbed it. But there’s another piece that I want you to know, which I don’t know if you know this, uh, but Mark does. Um, I was in AFib,

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: so when I finally realized that I had AFib Yeah. Yeah. And so like that sleep that we did at 16 four knocked the AFib up. And I, I believe I still would’ve made it, but I wouldn’t have been able to keep up with you guys.

And I would’ve told you to keep going. I wouldn’t have made you wait.

Steve: Yeah. We wouldn’t have waited.

Scott: yeah.

Steve: wouldn’t have not waited.

Scott: I, I know, I know. But you know,

Steve: yeah.

Scott: for me, I, my remembrance of that is in a way being up there with you.

Does that make sense?

Steve: mm-hmm. I felt that you were up there with me, I

mean, both of you.

Scott: Yeah.

Steve: Yeah. Yeah. That was what was an amazing experience and experience. It’s, we still fell into the trap of trying to describe it with numbers words and pictures.

Scott: And nothing wrong with that because there’s a way that doing our very best is, is good effort.

Steve: Yeah.

A hundred percent. Yeah.

Scott: And each one of us wrote about it really differently,

Steve: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Scott: you know, which is very interesting.

Steve: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott: the pieces that were important to us and whatever, you know, like, uh, and, and so, you know, it’s a, it’s a cool thing to have those three, each of us in a different, you know, venue, uh, writing our version of what happened

Steve: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott: And I like Mark’s statement that it’s a really, it was a really hard route to live with, you know?

So,

Steve: Yeah. But that was the coming back to reality piece,

the, the, what was a scene from the. Movie about the Iraq War where the guy comes back from deployment and he’s in the serial isle.

Scott: Yes.

Steve: What? What was that film?

Scott: Was it her locker?

Steve: Locker could have

been. And there’s just, he, that’s the experience,

Right.

Like he’s, he is been in this super intense life or death.

Super focused brotherhood, responsibility, love all

of those things.

Scott: God, you know,

Steve: touching God,

Scott: Yeah. You know? Right.

Steve: Cheerios.

Scott: You know what that, you know what moment it was for me. It was, um. After that. Just after that. There’s a moment that the two of us were on that, like two pitches up that ice face and we were hanging off one screw and you had one tool and we were leaning into each other while Mark was climbing. And I don’t remember if I was bling or you were bling. Uh, but we were both, you know, and it felt like, like it felt like, you know, there was one person there.

Like the way that, you know, the way that, I don’t know how to describe it, but, you know, I just remember being hanging off my, our tethers. I remember we, you know, had our daisy chains or whatever they were, passes, whatever they were hanging off of that single screw while Mark was up there.

And the two of us in this, see this circle of black ice with a tiny little whatever strength we had to be able to, you know, titch, a little crampon place for one of our feet and, but just leaning and like being one person while we were hanging up those tether. Yeah, yeah, I know you remember that

Steve: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Prolonged hug.

Scott: yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. But right. Like, we’re just, and, and I feel that. I at that point was before we got lost, of course, but I, I remember feeling super calm at that moment with you, you know, just like the two of us there and you know, like, this is where we’re supposed to be and this is what’s happening right now.

And I don’t need it to be any different than it is right now.

Steve: Hmm. What is it about, and I’m gonna say men though, it’s not always men, that they have to be put or put themselves in these extreme positions to access that. I.

Scott: So, so my belief is, is, um, uh, is genetics and, um, uh, the short history of humankind, so the,

Steve: we, we we’re still buffalo hunters.

Scott: we’re still, we’re still with, with sharp sticks, poking mastodons to get ’em to run off the cliffs. And that’s our job. And guys die all the time doing

Steve: yeah,

Scott: And the job of women in those times was to cooperate,

Steve: yeah,

Scott: to care for the young ones and to love each other because even if they had fights, they still had to cooperate to find the berries and seeds. And when someone was sick or when someone wasn’t producing milk and you were, you know, your job was to, you know, nurse the baby.

And there’s just like this way of cooperation. Men cooperate, but they do it. In this way where it’s Marshall and, um, I think that, um, that was 32,000 years ago,

Steve: Yeah.

Scott: right?

Steve: long ago. Really.

Scott: that, I mean, that’s, if, if we think about the, you know, the history of the earth like that, that’s, that’s a day, you know, that’s an hour, that’s a minute, a second, whatever.

And, and so I think that having to go to those extreme places gives us the excuse we need to let go of societal bounds and to transcend genetics, if that makes any sense.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Scott: And, uh, I think that, um, I don’t think the industrial Revolution did us any favors.

Steve: Hmm.

Scott: I mean, in terms of like, you know, what men, what men are to each other, you know?

Steve: Yeah, it’s been a, it’s been an honor.

Scott: Uh, well, it’s it, I’m gonna say it differently. I’m gonna say what a sweet conversation to have with my friend Steve.

Steve: Hmm. Last question. I may ask this to everyone.

How does Scott backs want to be remembered?

Scott: In the climbing community, I would wanna be remembered as the one who brought the word love to the hard ass alpinists. And in the other communities, I would wanna be remembered as the imperfect person who tried to understand himself.

Steve: Yeah, and I think you can take some credit for your amazing kids too.

Scott: Yeah, yeah,

Steve: That’s a big contribution.

Scott: yeah. I, I they get to do, they get to, you know, their, their deal is their deal. I will say that one of the best things that as a parent, I believe can happen to you is that when your kids are over 21, they still say, I love you and still want to hang out with you.

Steve: Yeah,

Scott: So,

Steve: yeah, yeah. Well, at the end of the day, the only real test that matters is getting what you want to have outta life.

Scott: yeah. Yeah. And I feel as I’m sure you do, incredibly grateful for the path that who would’ve ever thought for either of us in a way. Right. Like, you know, yeah. It seems impossible.

Steve: yeah.

Here we’re,

Scott: yeah.

Steve: so much, Scott.

Scott: I love you, Steve.

Steve: I love you, Scott.

Scott: Alright, bye.

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