hrTSS vs rTSS - default for trail running

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Topic
July 11, 2019 at 12:30 pm #24922

Michael G
Participant

I have searched through and found the topics that discuss the approach of using hrTSS and then adjusting the TSS score based on cumulative elevation gain. Is the idea to only use hrTSS as the calculation approach for all foot born activities?

I’m curious if rTSS can be used as the default for straight forward trail runs with cumulative elevation gains well under 1000′? Most of my Base runs might have ~400 to 500′ total gain. It would seem current rTSS values work pretty well for that.

Where I find huge discrepancies are long hikes and/or big runs with lots of cumulative elevation gain and loss. For those I am going with the hrTSS + adjustment approach.

That line up with what others are doing? Any guidance is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Michael
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Posted In: General Training Discussion

Participant

todd.struble on July 11, 2019 at 3:12 pm #24934

I just stay consistent since that makes it easier to track. Since I use the fudge factors recommended, I just stay with that same system even if I do a flat run. That way I don’t have to decide whether something had enough elevation gain to justify using hrTSS or not.

As noted a bunch here, the TSS thing is an “imperfect but the best we have” proxy, so I don’t sweat a few TSS here and there. I look at the longer term (weeks, months) trends to see if they’re following what I’m supposed to be doing.

I think the only way I’d change to using rTSS is if I decided I was going to spend a 3-6 month block training for flat running goals. Maybe others have different opinions.

Inactive

Anonymous on July 11, 2019 at 4:15 pm #24937

Todd is correct that the best approach is to be consistent. TSS is really individual and isn’t comparable across athletes. (Perhaps not in cycling with loads measured with a power meter.)

I use both hrTSS and rTSS, but rTSS is only for flat runs when I have an up-to-date threshold speed. For anything with any amount of gain, I use hrTSS and the fudge factors. YMMV.

Participant

Michael G on July 11, 2019 at 4:56 pm #24944

This is all great info, thank you.

Are the fudge factors for elevation based on ascent only? If you run up and then back down a 1000′ hill and are using hrTSS do you add 10TSS for only the 1000′ gain or do you add 20TSS for the 1000′ up and the 1000″ back down?

Inactive

Anonymous on July 11, 2019 at 5:13 pm #24945

The adjustment is for both ascent and descent.

Participant

Jon Dyer on July 22, 2019 at 1:27 pm #25337

Just to follow up on clarifying this…I had the same question as Michael. For a 1,000 ft. ascent and then 1,000 ft descent out and back for example would you add 10 or 20 TSS to hrTSS?

Participant

Michael G on July 22, 2019 at 2:54 pm #25346

The answer I came away with (and what I’ve been doing) is to add 20 TSS.

Inactive

Anonymous on July 22, 2019 at 7:11 pm #25365

Sorry for the confusion.

* When the load is less than 10% of body weight, we use 10 TSS for every 1,000 feet elevation gain round trip;
* When the load is ~20% of body weight, we use 20 TSS for every 1,000 feet of elevation gain round trip.

Participant

Jon Dyer on July 25, 2019 at 9:19 am #25433

Sorry to be so dense but I still want to make aure I’m clear on this. Sounds like it’s just based on total gain, not change? You’re use of the word gain with roundtrip and ascent and descent from an earlier reply is throwing me off. I’ll give a specific example from last sunday. I did a big mountain “run” that was basically one big uphill, 5,000ft ascent, and then back down the same route so 5,000ft descent. All with a very light pack. Nice little out n back here in the Tetons. How would you adjust the TSS? Intuitively I’m thinking the downhill change needs to be part of the adjustment since it’s so hard on the body…

Inactive

Anonymous on July 27, 2019 at 12:25 pm #25566

The adjustments include both the ascent and descent.

For up and down 5,000′, you could add 50 TSS.

Participant

gliderx on July 28, 2019 at 12:09 am #25575

Im currently doing the 6 month mountaineering training plan and after reading through some articles and posts here I am just curious why none of this is mentioned in the plan? or am I missing something?

Seems like a pretty important thing to have to try and find and then figure out yourself?

I haven’t been doing any of this should I retrospectively change workouts I have done?

Inactive

Anonymous on July 29, 2019 at 7:33 pm #25677

I’m not familiar with the training plans, but the adjustments are usually something we do on the coaching side. They may have been left out of the plans to avoid any confusion (which it looks like there could be).

If you want to use the adjustments going forward, you could add the adjustments to past workouts. But I don’t think it’s necessary unless you want to compare apples to apples. CTL is not an exact number that means anything to anyone else. (Different athletes could all have the same CTL and perform very differently.)

If you do decide to recalculate them, with TP’s normal settings, only the past six weeks are included in your CTL number. So not much point in going further back unless you really want to compare apples to apples.

But again, I don’t think it’s necessary.

Participant

gliderx on July 29, 2019 at 7:57 pm #25678

OK thanks, I just would like to have an accurate CTL to judge my level of ‘readiness’ for my objective based on some of the numbers I have seen floating around.

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