The Hunger for Redemption

Steve House: There are certain names that echo in the mountains long after the wind has died down. Names that come with stories, with sharp edges and with shadows. Mark Twight is one of those names, and he’s one of the most requested guests that we’ve ever had on this podcast, and if you’ve been waiting for this, this is for you. Mark and I go back. More than three decades, we’ve roped up together, we’ve failed together, we’ve grown apart, we’ve come back together, we’ve watched each other change. Sometimes those changes are by choice and sometimes by necessity. You probably know the legend of Mark Twight, his solos in the Alps, the cutting brutally honest essays, his refusal to compromise on anything, the fire. But what you might not know is the mark that I know. At his core. To me, mark is an artist. He’s a builder and a breaker. A man who’s remade himself over and over through different mediums, through photography, through writing, through climbing, and of course through training, and always through the lens of honesty. And that’s what’s rare, this brutal unflinching honesty that he brings. And it’s what lasts. This is not a short conversation. It’s four hours and we’re gonna split it into two episodes, and it’s not polite and it’s not simple, but it’s one of the most important conversations that we’ve recorded for Voice of the Mountains because it’s not about climbing, it’s about what happens when the summit stops being the point. It’s about ambition and aging and service and shame. It’s about letting go of performance and doing the work. Anyway, it’s about how we become and who we keep becoming when people stop watching. My name is Steve House and this is Voice of the Mountains, with a long, rich conversation with my very dear friend, Mr. Mark Twight. Please enjoy.

CTA: If you’re enjoying the show and want to take the next step in your training, join our newsletter and receive a free four week sample training plan. Head on over to uphillathlete.com/letsgo, and once you sign up, you’ll instantly get a link to try out some of our most popular training plans. It’s a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals. Check it out at uphillathlete.com/letsgo. That’s uphillathlete.com/LETSGO.

Steve: First of all, just welcome to Voice of the Mountains.

Mark: Um, happy to that. I’m happy that we are both here.

Steve: Yes. In person. The first ever live in person, which thanks to you

Mark: I was stubborn. I’m, I do apologize. but also not,

Steve: never apologize, never apologize for being yourself. Rule number one

Mark: to be learned much later in life for most.

Steve: So, I’m gonna, I wanna start us off by maybe going a little bit backwards, but you published a beautiful book called Refuge, which, tell me what that book was about.

Mark: Um, in I had been, I had, it Was Refuge is a book of, uh, basically self therapy and it is the, is how I would describe it now. And, um, published in February of 2019. I was trying to first understand and then document and then become comfortable with my own loss of identity or changing identity of quitting climbing, coming down to the valley, so to speak. And, uh, trying to, um, find purpose beauty, uh, meaning in the valley without climbing. And it, because I was, there was a period, I mean I started working on it in sort of 2015, 2016. I rehearsed pretty much the entire book on Instagram by pairing words and so-called lessons with particular images, watching how people responded. that sort of thing. I didn’t really change much based on response I’m stubborn that way. But, um, of, I was struggling with this loss of identity of how to, um. Who am I if I no longer do the thing? That made me who I And, and how do I live with, in a world where climbing is no longer, uh, a, thing, You know, for me it’s not it is Not the dominant driving force. Um, I, and to, to recognize that I was on a particular path for a particular period of time. And then it ended, you know?

Steve: Mm.

Mark: I, I, I. uh, we had, we spoke before. We, um, when we were, you know, greeting each other again after many, many years last night, uh, about the, the limits of imagination. And I had, I had reached the ceiling that I had imagined and could not reorient due to a variety of Um, life way of describing it was, you know, I, I had too much holding me to the ground. Like anchoring me. Where previously there was the opportunity to, I mean, or, um, cut everything away to complete, to be completely free in the mountains. And then at a certain point, you know, I don’t, and I don’t put, you know, blame or weight or anything on that, I’m just like recognition of life, uh, in a certain era. you know, basically being 39, 40 years old and realizing like I’m, I’m, I’m timed out.

Steve: Yeah. Almost. And one of the reasons I wanted to start with that is ’cause in a few short months, it’s going to be 25 years since we climbed the Slovak Direct.

Mark: That is correct. Yeah.

Steve: When with Scott Backes, of course, who, that’s another conversation for another time. However, you know, now we’re, we’re, we’re sitting here together 25 years later and that was really the climb, that was the bookend. As I see it to your, to your climbing at a, at a high level and it, what was it about that route that made you wanna step back? Or was it not the route? Was it the other outside circumstances?

Mark: I mean, part of it, it’s the route because I mean,

Steve: of this imagination,

Mark: it a little bit of it is like, like conceiving of doing a thing. you know, And what is, you know, what is next? And uh, uh, and you are, uh, on this similar journey. Scott and I maybe started it down that road a little bit earlier, but it’s, you know, the idea of moving in the Alaska Range in a single push and, and figuring out like, okay, how, do, what happens if you move nonstop for 24 hours, for 36 hours for, and, and so the, there was the, the, that progression. Uh, towards less and less technology, more and more personal responsibility, learning all of the things about physical fitness and, you know, what I’ll call alpine hygiene. Basically feeding and hydrating yourself so you can keep going. And, and for me, the, the next step was the one that you took, but I could no longer take it. I was not in a position in life where I could, you know, okay, I can’t go away for two months. I can’t go to Pakistan for two and a half months or someplace in the Himalaya to try and apply the same sort of tactics. Obviously it had been done, um, you know, in a previous era with, um, Voytek Kurtyka and Alex MacIntyre and

Steve: Voytek Kurtyka.

Mark: Yeah. And, and Erhard Loretan and Jean Troillet. And, um, and that, uh. But taking that idea and, applying it to more technical routes. And so I think, uh, the next logical step was to move out of the Alaska Range. ’cause we had done what was pretty much at the time, the

Steve: Yeah.

Mark: biggest route there. So if you want to progress on the same path and Well, the mountains need to be bigger. They need to maybe be more remote. They need to be, and obviously to go, um, to, to climb in that style, the route that you choose has to stack up in a particular way so that you reach the points where it has to be light. When it’s light and you arrive at the points on the route. Um, where it’s, you know, less technical so you don’t, you know, headlamp could be enough. And the navigation is easy. The route finding. Um, and that has to arrive when it’s dark. Mm-hmm. And, and all of those things, you know, you’re, Alaska is a gift in that way because you just have a lot more latitude for error In your timing. And so by the point to, you know, I’ll just, use say K7 for as the example, by the time you arrive at that, like your, the, the accuracy with which you can predict how long certain sections will take, how, when you would arrive at a certain point, and then initiating based on this schedule, uh, I mean this is a. Um, you had the experience to be able to, to do that. And I think this is, um, yeah, you get unlucky sometimes

Steve: the basis of the experience. And to your point, like the six, there was seven attempts to be successful on K7 and on the sixth I got through the crux. At about 6,750 meters. The peak is 6,942. Okay. And it was getting dark. And I, it was like, well, I either, if I summit, I’m gonna lose all my toes, or I could just go, or I have to turn around and I’m gonna have to come back. And, and, and then to your point, like that was purely a timing question. If I had started four hours earlier and Yeah. Or things had gone a little faster, where, you know, so yeah. You, you maybe had the, I had maybe had the groundwork for figuring that out. And one of the things that I think is super interesting with Alpinism as opposed to something like, you know, ultra running, whether it’s an organized race or just like running across the Wind River range or through the Absarokas or whatever, Um, You know, in most of these other ultra endurance ish sports, the, the way you raise the bar is just by going faster. And your, your yardstick is the other people that you’re running with or against. I mean, with, I think in the ultra running community, as, as competitive as they are, they’re also very supportive and open in, in that way, in a really cool way.

Mark: Yeah,

Steve: and we like, to your point, like you have to literally change geography, which changes the calculus of the entire thing. Like going to Alaska, the calculus of going to Alaska, paying for the trip, organizing the trip, the amount of time it takes to do the trip is completely different than the calculus of going to the car. Karakoram Range. I mean on every, in every way. And so, and it’s not as simple as just going back to the last range with different partners that you could climb faster than, wouldn’t that be nice? In a way, I’m like sort of jealous, like, man, I wish we could just keep running around Mont Blanc and improving. But actually we like have to find like a different bla like, Mont Blanc isn’t big enough now we have to like go to the the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and there’s always the bigger thing. Of

Mark: Oh yeah. And that, that, I mean, that’s an unbelievable development in and of itself within the ultra running community, that there are races that are 250 miles. You know, now where like, you know, and when, uh, I watched the, uh, the documentary about the 2010 Western states, you know, and when, the, and the, they’re interviewing the guy who did it originally on foot and, you know, it was, in that a hundred miles was impossible at that time. And now People are, I don’t wanna say routinely, but Cocodona, 250 mile race, it sells out. Like if you’re. not, yeah. You know, if you don’t have the alarm set, and you’re not waiting and, you know, charge up. You are not getting in. And so there are, there are, and I think there’s a parallel in climbing in, in that, you know, and, and we could use the Alaska Range for example, Because, uh, and I can’t, it was it 2008 when Jumbo and his crew did the ISIS dropped off the South buttress and then did the Slovak. You know, that is something that Okay. My, that was well beyond the ceiling of my imagination. Yeah. And it was, I think it was oh eight. I’m, uh, Um, ’cause ro they, Rolo and I were, uh, guiding military clients up the West Buttress. Okay. And they came and those guys came down, you know, we said, oh wow. There’s, there are, you know, think there was three of ’em. Um, uh, three dudes tied together with leashless tools. Total thousand yard stare zombie marching, uh, um, uh, uh, somewhere around Camp 17, I think. Uh, And, and we’re just like, whoa.

Steve: Where did you come

Mark: Yeah. What was, what was, what did we just see? You know, was this, was this an, you know, high altitude hallucination and then later learned? and so I think the, there is a, um, but then again, you know, after those guys did that, they had to look at other ranges as well. Mm-hmm. Like We needed to, they needed to go,

Steve: but they were more creative than we were. They linked the ISIS face and the Slovak, which a need now had never occurred to me, but as soon as they did it, I was like, oh, that’s cool.

Mark: That makes total sense do one 8,000 foot route and then drop down a little bit and then do a 9,000 foot route. I mean, Yeah. it’s, it, uh, yeah, they were more creative and, and I think thing we were, um. There was an era there where like, I think there was this slow, a a bit methodical progression of you know, 24 hours, 40 hours, you know, eventually 60 whatever. Um, and, and then all of a sudden it accelerated, you know, as soon as it was demonstrated to be possible, let’s say, then the idea accelerated to an extent that I was also not in a position match the speed of that development for, whatever, you know, again,

Steve: and it was important to match the speed of the development and not just keep, I mean, you could also continue climbing without being at the forefront of that.

Mark: It’s true. Um, then what am I learning? You know, how am I, there has been a, um, a characteristic in my life is that I don’t wanna repeat

Steve: Hmm.

Mark: For whatever reason, and I don’t know where, how that developed, but like, man, I can, yeah, I can keep doing the same thing over and over again, marginally more difficult by whatever self-imposed decisions that I make. Um, but what would it mean to go back and do this, you know, okay. After the Slovak and then figure out like, oh man, we, we could improve here. You know, now we know the route. Now we could, you know, do this. And if we go back within the next week, not possible. Obviously, you know, the, the ledges will still be there. You know? like the thing, the, The, the ledges that Kevin and Ben got that we profited from, but like going back and doing it faster, I don’t think there’s anything to be learned there. It’s a demonstration of future possibility. It’s like an opening a door to other potential, but I’m not. Um, but it’s not, that’s a door for others that’s It’s not necessarily opening a, a, a door to new or expanded potential for myself.

Steve: I wanna come back to that, but first I want you to take me back to kind of the, the origin story. In, in some of your writing, you described yourself as a skinny, intense kid who moved easily between rage and humor, contempt and the need to be recognized as superior. It’s pretty remarkable and honest self-analysis. And it also is completely in character with how you write. But I wanna, I’ll come back to that later, but when did you first recognize this intensity in yourself? When did you like, um, yeah, recognize in a conscious way that like, oh, I’m a really intense guy, or kid, or whatever.

Mark: Wow. I, I don’t, uh, uh, I mean, I have to say in the context of climbing, it was, I, I think it was my relationship with climbing, which made, compelled me to recognize my all or nothing tendencies. Which I also don’t know where that, um, came from. You know, there were many gifts, um, that were passed on to me by my parents. One of them was, you know, uh, my rebellious nature that they, that wasn’t a gift that they wanted to give me,

Steve: but that came from, I mean, they had that too,

Mark: but they, no, not at all. Oh, Um, my rebellious nature was against. them and, and, and their, you know, and then, uh, so my dad was a, uh, law enforcement ranger in the national parks, and so I was born in Yosemite. And, but he, you know, you think Okay, smokey the bear hat. Um, and it’s the guy who takes you on the nature hike. And no, my, I think my dad, you know, he, he liked making cases and, you know, every now and then getting in a confrontation with people and knowing that he was on the right side. And so, all of, you know, a lot of, um, what I was doing and the way I was doing it was anti-authoritarian in Still an issue for Um, and, but I didn’t, I didn’t see my obsession with climbing even when I just started, uh, as a, um. I didn’t recognize it for what it was and how it would change me or, uh, uh, shape me.

Steve: Oh, that’s interesting.

Mark: I only knew that this is, like I only, uh, I knew that this is what I wanted to do and this is all I wanted to do and to, um, and to be, uh, I, you know, it’s, I’d read a lot of books when I was younger and it was always about, you know, essentially the man on horseback. It was always about great men. The heroes of our time. it, you know, it’s the Arthur Arthurian Legends, uh, and and Um, and, and any of the, um, sort of sword and sorcery books is what you might call them now, where there’s, you know, there’s a quest for the thing you gotta get, You know, get the thing and then it’ll be an enlightenment or you’ll be rich or you’ll get the girl or you know, whatever. And, so I was trying to organize to, I was like, that’s the life I wanna live. Somehow I, you know, discovered climbing. I mean, obviously I should have discovered it younger because I grew up and I was in Yosemite and then Mount Rainier and then, uh, weekends after we moved to Seattle, you know, weekends either backpacking or skiing, you know, pretty much 52 weeks, 52 weekends out of the year, but close. And so I should have discovered climbing a lot sooner. But my father was not a climber. I mean, he knew he was in the military with Royal Robbins. He knew Wayne Mary, he knew all that whole. You know, crew in Yosemite at the time, And, but he wasn’t a climber and he was quite risk averse.

Steve: Oh, interesting.

Mark: And so perhaps my rebellious nature is, you know, is somewhat responsible for the relationship with risk and danger that I had

Steve: But so much of your writing, and I think your public persona as well, is this like almost, what’s the right adjective? Painfully self-reflective or, or, um, just over the top, like honest, like naked, honest, like, like, like there’s a lot of self um, self-criticism. There’s a lot of. Inner critic in that voice.

Mark: Yeah.

Steve: And, and a lot of us identify with that, including myself and millions of other people who read your stuff. So, but that was completely against anything that had come before in mountaineering literature, which has a huge tradition. But it was always about, it was more the Arthurian legend, you know, sort of, uh, uh, progression. Yeah. You know, I’m thinking of Chris Bonnington in his books, or, or Doug Scott’s early books or something where it’s more like, oh, and then we bought like a hundred kilos of rice and then we packed it up and then we found these porters, and then we gave them number, I mean like this very more, uh, journalistic style.

Mark: And I think there was also, I mean, and so what we’re also exposed to, um, because of where we’re born is we’re reading mo almost. All of the writing about mountaineering or alpinism in English. By English speakers. And so that’s largely influenced by the romantic era of climbing in the 18 hundreds. And that translated, you know, or transferred easily into later literature, even though the roots that were being done were much more Um, and, and then, you know, I would say due to a, almost a lack of imagination, I, I, I, mean, going to the south face of Annapurna in 19 70, 70, I think is the Bonington, Whillans,, Haston,

Steve: Yeah. I think it was 70

Mark: I think it was 1970 going there. That took an, took a a pretty serious leap. In imagination. So I accept that now. At the time, I didn’t think, I just thought, okay, this is, this is an engineering problem. And all those early expeditions. To me that was what they were. But at the same time, you know, we’re reading that literature being formed by it, but at the same time there was the more pessimistic, um, and I’ll just say almost death wish nature of uh, more of Eastern European climbers and, you know, it. In which I include Germany, I guess. Um, but that, that, I mean if look at Paul Preuss or Toni Kurz and these guys, you know, who had very, very strict ethics, died young for, you know, adhering to them. And I kind of went down that road and when I first read the White Spider, um, you know, my mother gave it to me, and I can’t remember what year it was, but in the se you know, quite close after it was published in English, I just loved this image of the. Uh, the two guys front pointing past the dudes who were cutting steps

Steve: Hmm.

Mark: In their 10, you know, in their 10 point crampons. And because it illustrated to me that like, okay, this is the past and human expression of the, you know, like these traditions being overrun by a future crashing into this sport and ethos. And so I was, for some reason, that appealed to me in a stronger way than any of the more romantic ideas. of The mountains are lovely and we go there to relax and it’s almost, you know, I’m going to sun myself in the, you know, looking at the north face of the Eiger while I’m recovering from my tuberculosis or something, you know, whatever the the, you know, the, the Swiss alpine sanitarium or, uh, sanitarium things. But I, I. Uh, somehow got drawn down that road partially, and it’s influenced by a number of things. Um, some of it being related to fear in the mountains. Um, and some of it being influenced by the, let’s say, the no future attitude of the punk music scene that I was also involved in. And

Steve: Mm-hmm. And there was no

Mark: You can lay it, you can flo it now.

Steve: Cut to the song. No.

Mark: Yeah,

Steve: Jeff,

Mark: yeah.

Steve: I won’t try to say it, but,

Mark: and uh, I, uh, and I didn’t, you know, the early this piece that I transcribed, um, recently, you know, that I don’t think I found my writing voice, you know, or even a voice of any kind. You know, I was trying to mimic or, or something like copy shit that I had read. Um, some of those the very early, you know, there was a piece that I wrote probably in 1981, A very documentary type, You know, we went to Mount Stewart, we did this, we got in trouble. This happened. We hiked, we hitchhiked, we ran out of food, you know, um, in that tradition of almost a journalistic thing.

Steve: Hmm. Terrible

Mark: piece of writing. A lot of the early stuff was. But at somewhere in there of, I began practicing and then it’s really 1986 when I wrote Kiss or Kill and, I, don’t know if this is exactly accurate, but from my notes, in the, I mean, I wrote it on a yellow legal pad and sent it to Climbing magazine, and I am pretty sure that this is accurate, that Michael basically changed one word and published it. And, you know, later when I looked back on that and realized what he had did it was I wanted to drive a stake into the heart of the mountaineering tome. And if, if it was possible for me to describe a Himalayan expedition where there’s, you know, a new route on Lobuche, a new route on Kga, and you know, an alpine style attempt on a route that wouldn’t finally get climbed for 18 years. but Yeah, it could have been longer. But if I could distill that into, you know, 1800 to 2000 words. Um, that’s was the perfect punk statement of almost time compressing everything to the extent that the, the emotion that had been spread out over 300 pages in one of the big books could just be condensed and distilled and, a, a a, a punch in the guts. to Anybody reading it? And I also, you know, Barry had described me as a really good propagandist and I preferred provocateur, but, um, uh, something at some point, and maybe it was the influence of the. You know, let’s just say the Arthurian legends or, or you know, things similar where it’s a man on a quest of some

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Mark: Um, I wanted that to, uh, to be less flowery. In some way, because that was the experience that I had in the mountains. I had, I don’t know if I’ve ever had a flowery experience or a romantic, um, sort of.

Steve: So it’s just natural to be honest,

Mark: uh, climbing forced that upon me. ’cause I was not a honest kid. Um, I, you know, my parents split up and my dad left, uh, when I was 10 and I started acting out in ways that didn’t, involved. you know, maybe a little bit of kleptomania, maybe some. Forgery, maybe some arson and, and, you know, lying to get away with it. But then I suddenly, I’m involved in an activity where lies mean. You’re, you know, if you lie to yourself, you’re dead. And, And, it took some time for those ideas and lessons to coalesce and become part of character. But it did. And, And, I would say that there, you know, by 1986 when Kisser K came out, I mean, I was, I mean, even 84, I was ruthlessly honest about, uh, what I had. Um, because when you’re, you know, if you’re going soloing, you can’t, I mean, people do lie about what they did. Um, but for me it was absolutely important not to be questioned. And so, yeah, I did not, when I soloed the North Face of the Grand Sharmo, um, in November of 84, yeah, I did not get to the top mostly Um, and, you know, thought the ri thought the Ridgecrest that I’d reached was the summit. But I think it was, you know, really important. I mean, to the point where I have, um, not for the, the Haston Root on. The Monk on the Munch. Um, but basically I have photographs of my feet and tools and maybe the trail rope or whatever on every route that I saw in the Alps that year. because I did not want to be partially because I was gonna go home to people, um, you know, uh, who maybe didn’t have experience in the Alps. Um, who hadn’t ever done a route with me in the mountains to see that I could do some, you know, I was okay climber, uh, and I wanted that documentation. Um,

Steve: proof.

Mark: Proof. I mean, it is proof, but it’s also like if I am, do I need to reinforce my own self-honesty?

Steve: Hmm.

Mark: Also, and you know, okay, if I’m a kid who grows up lying and stealing, well then, and I’ve discovered this new concept of honesty, It, all of my behavior is influenced by my past. Like, I would maybe say shit in the past and no one would believe it. ’cause it’s just Mark making And so now I’m in a situation where okay, if I lie to myself, I fall off. Um, or I get in over my head or something bad happens. Um, but I, so I need to be honest with my, myself, and I also want to project my newfound honesty or, or a change in character into the, into the world, so that I can basically redefine myself to anybody who especially, you know, some of it family, but also, you know, friends or people who had known me.

Steve: Mm, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. You said, or you wrote that quote, no matter what I did, the suffering I experienced did not satisfy me. I had to have more. This, I, I bring this question up now because it connects directly to this era of climbing that you were doing in the, in the eighties. And doing a lot of soloing technical routes. Uh, it was an era where, you know, very different media landscape than it is today. And what were you actually hungry for?

Mark: I, well, I was hungry for transformative experiences. Like, I wanted to do things that would, um, that would change me or compel me to change, uh, to, and, and learn and grow. But the only, but I didn’t have a Lexi, uh, you know, a very diverse lexicon of, um. I didn’t know that you, you know, one could be changed by a, A, you know, a feeling of love or a relationship with another person, or be changed and reshaped by profound beauty.

Steve: Hmm.

Mark: Now I’m getting, you know, romantic in an explanation about something that, um, I felt like, you know, um, that I needed to put my back against the wall in order to improve. Like if I set up the consequences to make sure that, um, to, to ensure that, uh, I overcame my condition of yesterday. and and that was the kind of the only way I knew how. to Do it. I didn’t, s you know, when I first started climbing, I mean, I was terrified of heights and like, uh, these guys took me up uh, um, outer space on the snow, creek wall. And I would not face out. I would not look down. I’d spent the entire time up to the un up to the bucket seat belay between, I don’t know, it was the sixth and seventh pitch or something like that. It’s in the middle of the crack pitch. And I finally got there and we had a huge anchor. And the two guys I was with forced me to turn around and but I did not want I, so I did not start soloing. I mean, the first route really, that I soloed in the mountains of any significance, um, was that route that, uh, the La Sand Cool are, um, that gel Haston and Ole Ice Strip had done. In 1976 on the North Face of the Monk. I mean, somehow I got it in my head that day that I was gonna go out there and do it and to get away with it.

Steve: Mm.

Mark: And, and that was almost that. And then the, um, a, a little, you know, a month later or whatever, five significant roots in Shaman utterly changed I mean, it was 22 years old. I was ripe for becoming, and the circumstances of John Krakauer inviting me to go to the north face of the Iger, my first time out of, you out of the us Uh, with the exception of Canada. But, um, and, and, and that was, you know, related to school sports. So I’d never traveled, never been exposed to the other cultures, never seen mountains and realized. Um, well, I’m here and, I, and I have, I had accidentally somehow proven to myself that I had the talent to do the things and

Steve: talent or capacity.

Mark: Ooh, Capacity. Yeah. and, and, and yeah, for sure. Let’s just, thank you. Um, because if I would use, you know, some of the language of Mr. Scott back’s, I was a pretty talent free climber. And that’s talent hyphen free. not Talented free climber. you know, Um, in terms of technical ability, uh. man, I did not, um, I was nowhere near the cutting edge at any time, in any discipline.

Steve: Yeah. And I think that, You know, I like to say that alpinists are the decathletes of climbing. You. You, yeah. You’re pretty good at everything and you’re not gonna be the best at any one thing. That’s the nature of Alpinism. And maybe also why, like, I, I, I put myself in the same category in the sense of there’s never like the best at any one of these sub-disciplines of alpinism under ice climbing or rock climbing or whatever. Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

Steve: But I was pretty good at all of them and that, and not, and that’s, it’s different than just, you know, I don’t know what, um, you know, climbers who focus on, uh, like, like our friend Rolo, for example, who’s done incredible things in places like Patagonia and he’s really focused on his rock climbing stuff, and not so much on some of these other aspects like high altitude or climbing and stuff. I think that’s normal. So when you, you, I wanna go back to something you said where you had, you said you had to put your back against the wall. And have consequences and that what you were hungry for was transformation. And I hear also, and I think it’s a great point, that your lexicon was somewhat limited in terms of how you could achieve that. I think of these things as a little bit like, you know, weather, like the, the wind moves from the high pressure to the low pressure and the intensity of the wind depends on the difference in those pressures. Like the high is either really high or the low is really low and you get a really strong wind. Or maybe sometimes it’s not that high and it’s just a little breeze. Lare, what was that vacuum pulling you forward, pulling you to, to transformation?

Mark: There is a, um, so I’ve been read, you know, reading books as I said, and, and also it turns out a lot of. uh, I would, I would a lot um, I was familiar with the tenets of Eastern philosophy

Steve: mm-hmm.

Mark: uh, fascinated by the Book of Five Rings. Um, Zen and The Art of Archery was another book, Haku, another. These were books that I was reading as a young man, um, and realizing that I was not who I was reading about.

Steve: Mm. That

Mark: wanted to be, who I was reading about. How does, you know? Yes. In samurai legend, obviously that they’re training with wooden swords at some point. Um, but as the water rises, so rises the boat, if I want better performance out of myself. Then I need to put circumstance myself in circumstances that are more demanding. And somehow this Marshall Theory got in, you know, woven in.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Mark: I’m not gonna, and I had spent, I mean, there was a point that is written that I wrote about an extreme alpinism when, uh, I was climbing the Cascades climbing a lot with this guy Andy Knock, who was someone sort of with a great imagination and without much self limitation. And we had gotten on a, uh, A, route in the, in the Cascades. We had done the north, there’s the, uh, the twin sisters, which are sort of between Mount Baker and the coast. And, uh, we went up there in the winter on our telemark skis and, um, climbed the north face of the north, uh, sister. And then descended and, uh, the conditions were perfect. I mean, it was absolutely ideal and we were, you know, wanted to go do the, you know, north also to unchain it, so to speak, to the north face of the south twin sister. And I, for some reason, I got scared. I got freaked out and we had this big confrontation with each other, shouting, you know, ’cause I was, I had this guy, Michael Reiner, um, he’s an Australian dude who came through, gave me some pictures at the early winter store where I was working, um, of when they were in Gangotri. And he said, oh, this is pics peak 60, 60 46 I think, or something like that. And AKA the fang, which is up the Chang glacier. And he said, the granite is so perfect, it’s so white, you can’t tell when, you know, snow changes to rock. It’s absolutely made, And this face And I was imagining myself in 1981 having been a climber for about a. year. I thought I was gonna go and do a new route on this. You know, on the Fang. Um, and, and so I, had, and I had said these things out loud dude, Andy and he’s like, we’re in the Cascades dude. And you’re scared outta your mind on the south, north face of the south twin sister, you know, or, um, and you’re just, you’re so full of shit. Like you have these dreams and you’re unwilling to even try to because your fear is holding you back. And I took a, some, I mean, it took it to heart. It was super painful to hear, like, to have another man or young man be a, a mirror that was more accurate than I was willing to look into Myself. And that was when I started studying at the, uh, Seattle Kung Fu Club because one of an early mentor had. Directed me there. And somehow over time, my relationship to fear and risk changed partially because of that. But then being involved in Martial arts school and I’m starting to read those books and eventually the Doji Cando and realizing like, oh wait, there is, as a climber, there is a, at the time there’s a very traditional path that you walked to get into climbing.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Mark: And I mean, obvi and, and very traditional, all of the martial arts were traditional, with the exception of Bruce Lee taking a little bit from here and a little bit from there, and and, and creating something entirely new. And there was a blueprint for climbing.

Steve: Mm-hmm. There

Mark: is a blueprint right there for, you know, going into the mountains in a way that, um, Was, was not restricted by the left and right limits of that traditional path as denoted in all of the English climbing literature that we read, or the book Freedom of the Hills. Um, and somehow that spoke rebel

Steve: Hmm.

Mark: who Was, you know, busy still, um, uh, trying to prove myself to my father?

Steve: Hmm. What point did you realize that that’s what you were doing

Mark: Much later than I’m talking about right now? And like, you know, a lot of it was was not coincident Right. You know, in, you know, 19 82, 83, 84, you know, but this is

Steve: benefit of hindsight.

Mark: yeah. And, and to, and to, to try and examine what was happening. And happily, I did write these things so I can sit with those.

Steve: Hmm.

Mark: now and understand it a bit better, knowing myself better.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Mark: Um, and recognizing things in myself that were not, um, that were the, the things that I was, uh, un that the self-criticism was aimed at.

Steve: Okay. You, you wrote, uh, a little phrase, punish your body to perfect your soul. I don’t think you’re the first person to Right. That approximate sentence. I

Mark: think that’s, a, I’m pretty sure that is actually a quote that, came out of, uh, the novel that was written about Musashi Miyamoto

Steve: Oh, okay.

Mark: And his development as a swordsman. Um. And I can’t remember the author’s name, big fat book. But it, it really comes down to the, you know, the battle in the end between him and Sasaki Kojiro know, he, Michelle the legend has it, you know, that he showed up with no sword for a dole and, you know, cut the, the ore down to make himself a wooden sword. And uh, came out on the good

Steve: prevailed.

Mark: Prevailed, yes. Um, I’m pretty sure that that punish your body to perfect your soul came from that book and it had to do with, um, standing under a cold, like icy waterfall.

Steve: Hmm.

Mark: the situation in the book. um,

Steve: cold plunging,

Mark: Yeah.

Steve: that’s like all the rage now.

Mark: I It’s true. And you can buy a product, that will help you do so.

Steve: Yes. a bunch of influencers that will anyway

Mark: you.

Steve: Yes. So, so do you still believe that what part of it is true?

Mark: Well, the part that you know, obviously I had done all kinds of wrong things that I needed to be punished for at the time, right? Like, this is because I, I, I read it now and I’ve, and I’ve, I’ve, uh, I wrote an essay a couple of years ago about it. I was like, what was I, what have I done? You know, that’s is requiring me to punish myself. You know, in, in this way. Um, so what it really you know, so punish the body to perfect a soul. It’s, it’s, it’s really the most distilled version of using physical experience to influence spiritual and condition and. It. But that spoke to me because I was, again, down the more negative root or viewpoint, um, vis-a-vis my relationship to the mountains. So it’s not, so now I’m like, well, you know, part of the lack of development, lack of confidence, you know, maybe the, the limitations of my imagination at a time at, you know, in the mountains even, even later. Part of that was the self criticism that was going. Like, I had somehow still had that belief. I needed to be punished for something and no one could do it better to me than me. Um, but that was, it was many years later when, uh, I got out of my, way, I was able to step back from it and see it for sort of what it was, that it was, okay, this is shorthand for something else, and then it becomes a clever phrase.

Steve: What’s it shorthand for?

Mark: I mean, it is shorthand for, therefore, what I just, uh, just mentioned is using physical experience to inform psychology and, and one’s, uh, nature.

Steve: Mm. So I wanna digress for a second. ’cause I’ve been wanting to run this by you for a while. So you a, you a asked this question like, you know, what, what had I done? And I’ve asked myself that same like, where did this, like, what was I, what was I trying to prove anyway, like, And you know, I think we, you know, you the approval of your father or like, I thought, like, was it the approval of my father or what was it? And, and I actually have kind of come to the conclusion that it’s the, the Christians had it figured out it was original sin. It’s that very idea that mankind and, and, and I think it’s just a. Built into our makeup somehow. And we invented, you know, thousands of years ago, a story around, you know, the story of Adam and Eve, an original sin. And, and now we have to do everything to repent from that original sin and

Mark: atone

Steve: to atone. And it’s this and it now that we don’t have, you know, at least I don’t, and, and I don’t think you do have religion in our lives in that way, especially that, you know, religious

Mark: mm-hmm.

Steve: that we, but the, but that human basic like need is somehow still there. And that we, we need, and, and I don’t think we need to. Actually explain it. It’s what I’ve kind of let myself off the hook maybe, maybe wrongly. I’ve sort of let myself off the hook be like, you know, I’m done trying to explain that because I think that’s just an inherent part of the human experience, and it has been for thousands of years, and it will continue to be for thousands of years.

Mark: I don’t think that’s inaccurate, uh, um, by, by any stretch. I, I, I didn’t examine to. Okay. Uh,

Steve: am I warm? Hot, cold?

Mark: I, I, I, I, I,

Steve: yeah.

Mark: It’s really hard to, know how We are, you know how we have been influenced in our,

Steve: yeah.

Mark: In our lives by things that maybe we didn’t even participate in, but it is in the general consciousness of the environment that we are nurtured by. And you know, my, uh, Parents, they were suppo, they were religious, they were Unitarians, which I think is the,

Steve: it’s one of the best religions you can be on.

Mark: I mean, if, If God is baseball, I Okay. You know? if the, if the higher power, you know, whatever it can be, whatever you want it to be, Ah, it’s hard. That’s, that’s okay. Yeah. Um, and so I was exposed in that way, but I, don’t, you know, the only, It, but I don’t remember any of those experiences in the Unitarian Church. I know where it, looked, what it looked like. I know where it was in Seattle. I remember the pastor, I mean, fucking really cool looking dude named Peter Rabel. Um, but the only sermon I ever remember him giving as a, you know, before I like didn’t go anymore was about the World Series. And, you know, and, and the higher, you know, uh, ideal being expressed by these gentlemen playing sports ball.

Steve: Okay.

Mark: I was like, okay, well if it can be anything, then I’m gonna make it

Steve: Make it what I wanna make

Mark: Make it. Yeah. But I don’t, you know, and, and whether I’m, you know, trying to atone for something that was transmitted to me by that particular religion, unconsciously, or unconsciously received by me or by other concepts of that original sin idea, I, I don’t know, because I had, I’m pretty, I was fairly aware of the sins, the actual sins that I had, uh, Committed. Terms uh, you know, Behaviors that I mentioned before.

Steve: Yeah. And, but you also equated atonement with suffering.

Mark: Yeah. And where does that come from? If not from that, I call it an origin story.

Steve: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s a good, uh, I think that’s a good name for it. So let’s talk about Dr. Doom.

Mark: Ah, shit. Let’s, Yeah,

Steve: so that was your, your nickname and I think it was, you know, given to you by one of your editors. If I remember.

Mark: It was, Uh, the term was coined by Mariah Kraner.

Steve: Oh, it was Mariah. Okay. I thought it was Allison OCS. Okay. Mariah Kramer being the marketing director of the time for Black Diamond

Mark: Black Diamond. Yeah. But It was in relation to my writing, so

Steve: Yeah. Yeah. And, and the, and the image of you that writing created For those of you, those people who had not actually met you and gotten to Found out what Mark has a soft tinder chewy inside. Stop. Stop it. Yeah. I’m winning all that years of pr, um,

Mark: which is, which all went away a few years ago when there was a a photograph that Blair took of me walking our cat. on a leash. I’m there in Birkenstocks. I got a ponytail. I am

Steve: walking the cat.

Mark: I am walking a cat. He is, that’s a, you know, he is a 22-year-old cat, so that’s pretty cool. Um, But it’s still walking a cat. And then, um, our friend Kelly Halpin saw that. and, uh, drew it. Drew it. She, she, she, you

Steve: she, you know, she loved that. I bet.

Mark: And Oh yeah. And, and you know, uh, it was just like, well, there it is. The final nail in the coffin of Dr. Doom,

Steve: Good riddance.

Mark: Maybe. I mean, no longer useful. So Dr. Doom had to move, you know, and. and. and I’ll just sort of interrupt there, is like, when I, I, kind, I secretly kind of enjoyed it when Mariah gave me the nickname. Oh yeah. And obviously, to, and it was obvious to me at the time that there’s no, once it’s out in the wild, it’s not going away. So I probably just should turn it into a jacket and wear it all the time. And so maybe, so it is entirely possible, um, that once that happened, I doubled down.

Steve: Hmm.

Mark: you know, I went, I was like, oh, now you’ve just given me permission. You’ve characterized me as X, so I’m gonna write as X.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Mark: That,

Steve: And in that time you wrote that albinism destroyed my relationships, drove me into depression, and changed me from a happy future, hopeful young man into an embittered, cynic.

Mark: I did write that, and now I’m trying to think how far back do I have to go to find a happy, future, hopefully young man in my life.

Steve: Yeah, that’s a fair question. And you know, I guess what that calls out to me is just like kind of the price.

Mark: Yeah.

Steve: And is, did you understand what you were paying for at the time? or did you, did you only see this in hindsight?

Mark: Well, at the time of the, that writing, I was pretty clear on it. Um, act, you know, I, I don’t know if, I would have to, to look back and see exactly what that’s from to find the year that it was written, because I feel like that’s pure, that is pre-Doc doom.

Steve: Oh, could be. Yeah.

Mark: Um,

Steve: I don’t have the reference here

Mark: and, and, and I don’t, you know, if I’m like, okay, have embittered, cynic at man. It could have been, it, it could have predated, uh, it could be glitter and despair, which would predate Dr. Doom by four or five years. Okay. Um,

Steve: is the warmup for Dr. Doom?

Mark: Yeah. Or something, but, but I don’t, but I’m not totally sure. Um, you know, and, and whether, you know, that’s me doubling down on the, on the nickname or me. finding myself. My, I, my guess is actually, if I, I, I think it that predates Dr. Doom. Um, and, and, and if that is the case, I wasn’t completely certain yet what I was buying, what I was. Um, but only that I knew that I had to give up certain things in order to, uh, have the experiences that I sought in this sense of like, okay, how do I, how do I back myself up against the and how do I make myself completely free of anything that might keep me from doing what it was that I wanted to do or couldn’t not do?

Steve: Mm-hmm. Was it worth it? And I know I’m not, I don’t mean, was, was the, were the climbs worth it? Was it worth it to become the person that you became as a result?

Mark: Ultimately, yes. In the moment of the great losses and cuttings away, maybe not.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Mark: Um, because I do, you know, some, you know, I will do look back and I, and I, I take us, you know, great care in this period of life to when I am scanning images or working with things that I wanna write about. I might wanna write around the image talked about, and I’m really careful about a particular person in my life because, uh, it, how hurt she is to look back at that time, or to have that put in her face. Um, you know, I, Love and care for this woman enough that like, I, there’s no reason for me to do that. You know, and, and, and as of, you know, a, a few, you know, five or six years ago, I, can’t remember exactly when it is, but I shared some images with someone who then posted them, and then they were seen. And, you know, word got around to me that like, oh, that, that really hurt her. And I decided, wow, I don’t need to, you know, back then I wouldn’t have cared. Um, probably, uh, and, but now I’m like, I don’t need to, I don’t need to do that. I don’t need to, you know, stack, you know, pain on top of pain, on top of pain for another, for another person. So in that regard, looking back, and like, man, could have behaved, you know, it, it would’ve been, uh. More caring as a human being to behave in a different way.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Mark: I’d hadn’t gotten to the point of caring. Enough. in And, but I’m also wouldn’t be, without all of those decisions, consequences, experiences, I would, you know, whether it’s in the mountains or it’s in personal relationships about living circumstances. Um, I wouldn’t be where I am right now with the, um, woman that I’m deeply in love with right now. Mm-hmm.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Mark: Uh, without having had all of experiences. I mean, If I didn’t live that we never would’ve met.

Steve: Hmm. Yeah.

Mark: And so because of how fulfilling life is in this time, how. Happy I am and we are together. And that, I mean, I have to say, yeah, it was everything that came before was worth it to arrive at this point of almost, you know, of, of fulfillment.

Steve: Lemme go off script here for a minute because I want to ask you about partnership and I didn’t write any questions about this coming into today, but this also touches on a theme that has come up a lot, this voice of the mountain sea season, which is, you know, that idea of get the right people in the room or get the right people on the bus or whatever allegory you want to use about building businesses and having the right people around you. And in climbing, we have partnerships. I mean, you and I have our partnership, but like there’s millions of iterations of that within climbing. It’s a key. And then core tenant of even when you’re arguably climbing by yourself, I think it’s still, there’s still a partnership some with, with and other. Yeah. Um, but people, I think, and I think we all, and I want people to know they’re not alone in this, that it’s almost universal. They struggle with finding in, in a, in a really deep way. And I think that that’s true in climbing and it’s also certainly true in business. And you know, I know like in my experience with, you know, some of the business partnerships that I’ve had, and I’m specifically thinking about Scott Johnson in this case, but, you know, it ended really uncomfortably. Yeah. And really, I mean, honestly, kind of for me at least, horribly as in terms of my experience of it. And I am now that a few years have gone by am so like, I’m so grateful for what I learned and who I became as a result of having to go through that. And it kind of is that old saying, you know, I asked God for wisdom and he gave me problems to solve. You know, and you, you think you could just like go to the outcome, which I wanna be better at running a small business, or I wanna be better at Alpinism, or I wanna just be a better, like, I wanna be closer to the truth of what it means to be a good human. And it’s, you can’t just go to the outcome. You have to go through the thing, the, the, the turmoil, the, the breakup, the, the bus, the business, divorce, the marriage, the, you know, divorce with your partner, whatever it is to like, go to those and then, and then, so you, you, it’s sort of an intractable question. You can’t say. You’re not grateful for those things because they made you and brought you to who you are and who you’re with, and this, this experience that you’re having in this part of your life. And without all that, without anyone, anyone, even maybe potentially minor piece of what came before would be different. You wouldn’t, we wouldn’t be sitting here.

Mark: I’m gonna give you a non-answer.

Steve: Okay.

Mark: because there’s not, what I have concluded about partnership is the reason that so many climbers get involved in businesses that then blow up and end up with acrimonious, you know, relationships and that sort of thing is because our experience with partnership. It Was in climbing.

Steve: I know exactly what you’re gonna say. Our

Mark: experience is you pressure test the relationship immediately and you know, almost immediately nothing is, can be hidden if the pressure is great enough. You see yourself clearly, you see the other person, clearly, you see the third person that is the two of you together very clearly. And, um, and so we have this almost childlike relationship with trust and partnership. I mean, I, um, I wanna say naive. Is, is what I’m trying to say with, with childlike. And then you get involved in a business and the same pressure isn’t there. It will eventually come, but you might be so far down the road at that point that, that you, and, and maybe you’re also, you know, maybe, maybe we aren’t in the business honestly. With that other person. Maybe they’re not in it, honestly, in a way that’s true to their own character. Maybe I’m not capable of communicating in a way.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Mark: So that the, my business partners in this situation understand who I am and how important certain, you know, particular behaviors, ideals, ethics, outcomes are to me. And by the time then the pressure gets, you know, to, to the point of true character being revealed on regardless of which side or which, you know, in, in which partner. Um, there it can only end badly. And that’s also part of the, you know, maybe a little bit of the, uh, black and white, either or nature of, you know, the characteristics that are developed by. Our experiences in the mountains.

Steve: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mark: Mm-hmm. And, you know, it’s just like, I mean, I’ve thought some about this, about like the symbolism of the rope in, a, in the relationship It’s like, oh, I can count pretty much these days on, well, I’ll say two hands, being an optimist that I am, um, who I would hand the rope to. Trust them implicitly to do what was necessary when it was Um, it’s probably one hand, uh, but, um, business isn’t like It’s, there’s less pressure, it’s a bit more forgiving because of the potential benefits. I think we are more prone to self delusion about the nature of the business that we’re in and the relationship with our business

Steve: Mm-hmm. I absolutely think you’re right about the naivete. And I also believe that, you know, climbing an expedition lasts two months. Business takes, I mean, sometimes, you know, years or if not decades, that you’re in these, in these businesses together. And that’s a much longer timeframe for much more to just

Mark: But also in those two, you’re with your partner on that expedition 24 7, which you never are with the bus, You know, which, and that extends the timeline for

Steve: Right.

Mark: thing in a way. Um, but also yes, things to accrue and external circumstances. Um. it, it allows a lot longer period of time for external circumstances and outcomes to influence people’s character and the behavior and what they And

Steve: And to people to change.

Mark: change. And people change. Yeah. And I mean, I’ve seen recently, it, you know, whether it’s miscommunication or change in, you know, whatever, it’s like, man, this is this business partnership. You know, we are no longer compatible together. And I don’t have the requisite, um, you know, again, lexicons limited In how this will end.

Steve: Yeah. And success, I think, changes people more than failure does.

Mark: I think failure changes people in a good way. Success can change people in a bad

Steve: Yeah.

Mark: In, in, the sense of like, oh, there are certain character, you know, human nature, you know, characteristics of our human, of our nature as human beings. And, um, you know, often failure leads to striving. Not

Steve: So, uh, yeah, it’s a cycle of self-reflection, improvement, striving to fulfill that. By filling in the gap that you identified.

Mark: And then sometimes, you know, success. Well, man, I,

Steve: I’m the shit.

Mark: I’m the shit, Exactly. you know? Yeah. Maybe I am an influencer, maybe I am a leader. These people are all listening to me. That makes me, you know, they wanna follow. That makes me a leader, not necessarily true.

Steve: Mm.

Mark: um, or wow, I can make, if I just, I can make my slice of the pie bigger. By doing X. I can, um, yeah, I, I don’t know that, um, I, I, I think success comes as a equal blessing and curse in a way because but it’s super easy to, you know, um, even in the climbing context, it’s like, did you know, were you really that good? Or did you just get lucky? You know, there would be the thing, you know, in business, am I, are we, you know, am I really this good or is it an accident of circumstances, timing, et cetera, where the thing that I said and did happen to ring the bell in the

Steve: yeah, And, and more than one thing could be true at once.

Mark: is true. Yeah.

Steve: so, and I, and I think too, like one of the things that I think with, for me, with having like learned about. Partnership through climbing, as you said, in a very simplistic way. And in, in, in business. The rope isn’t actually really there. Like you can actually cut the rope and nobody dies. Yeah. In climbing, like it would be morally unconscious. Unconscious. unconscionable, unconscionable. It would be morally unconscionable to cut the rope and it never happened. Nobody ever did that.

Mark: Uh, there was, there was the one time was in the book and in the movie. Yeah. But no, there was two times, ’cause it happened in the Iger sanction. Ger

Steve: sanction. What was the other time? Oh, touching

Mark: the void.

Steve: right.

Mark: One was fiction. One actually fucking happened.

Steve: One happened. Yeah. And so. Like, I think I thought that that metaphorical rope was the same as the physical rope. Like you could just never, you could just never do that. Yeah. Like nobody would ever do that, or just, I just literally couldn’t imagine that anybody would like, just reach out, like slice that rope metaphorical or physical, because my experience was only with the physical. Yeah. and, and, and and, in all fairness, like life, I, I get it. Like, shit ain’t like that.

Mark: I mean, and, and just think of, you know, how the, the, you know, after Joe Simpson survived, you know? And, and that sort of thing. And everybody’s like, I can’t believe Simon, I think, uh, yeah, I can’t believe you fucking, you know, you do that or whatever. He’s like, dude, I couldn’t pass. You know, there’s no way to pass the knot. I’d, you know, that I would, it, I mean, I have a decent amount of forgiveness. You just imagine sitting in that situation, where I can sit here and freeze to death, hopefully. Um, I freeze in place, I guess, and he freezes in place. there. Just hanging there and I’m just in this fucking bucket seat in the snow. because that’s all we got. And, And, it’s like, man, what a horrible moral dilemma to be confronted by. And yeah, again, a lot of forgiveness for that situation because I am about to do the unconscionable. This is me seeing me doing the unconscionable right now. I am flipping open the Swiss army knife. I am, I’m just, all I gotta do, it’s a rope under tension and I just gotta tap it and it is fucking gone.

Steve: Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

Steve: Hard to imagine. Uh, and that’s also why the story is so fascinating, right? Like, I mean, ’cause we, we all just wanna know what that was actually like to have actually done that and you Yeah. And,

Mark: and all of the weight associated with that severing of the rope that then we carry into a business relationship where the, the weight, and as you said, the consequences do, do not exist. And people are just willing to, ah, Yeah, just cut the rope, walk away,

Steve: fine. Mm-hmm.

Mark: Take my ball, go home, without

Steve: Hmm. Yeah. And I, and I, and I think also to play devil’s advocate and not just give everyone like carte blanche to go cutting metaphorical ropes, I think that there’s a, the, the person who cuts the rope has a large moral responsibility to do it well.

Mark: Yeah.

Steve: And we’ve, we’ve all cut the ropes and I’m not gonna let myself off the hook and I’m not gonna blame anyone else. Like, it’s not a, again, it’s not a blame thing here. It’s, it’s just that that’s one of the lessons. Yeah. That it’s really hard to do that. Well, I mean, Simon and, I mean, I think that’s not the best. Simon Yates, I don’t think that’s the best analogy here, because, you know, he is like, damned if he does, damned if

Mark: yeah. Oh yeah.

Steve: there’s no, there’s no, there’s no right in either choice. And there never would be. And so it’s really black and white, but when we’re talking about relationships and human beings that are gonna continue to move forward with their lives one way or another, um, and, and assuming that that’s, you know, we usually get into these relationships with people we deeply care about. Deeply respect, in many cases. Deeply love.

Mark: Yeah.

Steve: If you, if you don’t, if you don’t do that well, like, then who are you? Like what, what? Like what are you, and you know, maybe you’re just the core of original sin. Maybe you’re, maybe we are just at our core, evil. I don’t know. I don’t think so.

Mark: Do you wanna just end the podcast on that? That

Steve: No, dude, we’re just getting warmed up.

Mark: Okay. Okay, ‘ Good. cause wow. Yeah,

Steve: the uh, yeah, while we’re going down rabbit holes, ’cause you brought it up and I think it’s really interesting what you said, like, just because people are following me. It means I’m a leader now. But it, as you said, it doesn’t necessarily, and this is, this is something that we’ve talked about, uh, the last 24 hours in our, all our little side conversations. And I find it super interesting that we’re coming to similar conclusions as both having moved past the, the climbing parts of our lives and also both realizing, or putting words in your mouth here, but I think we’re both realizing a similar responsibility or feeling of maybe agency and, and responsibility, I think is a good word to continue to lead. And I don’t think that that’s the only reason that we can lead is because we’ve been on the path and we know it and we know like what happens at all the various pitfalls and. The, the job of the leader is to not like, you know, keep the followers outta the pitfalls. ’cause the followers have to, you know, as, as Vince Anderson loves to say, the burnt hand teaches best. And to a large extent, that’s, that’s generally true for I, I do believe that as a father, I maybe rely on that too much sometimes, but I, I do think that, you know, knowing where the pitfalls are, knowing how to, again, it comes to coaching, like coach people through those things and, and be a resource and make ourselves available and not just like, crawl off into the desert and disappear. Is it, you know, I think it’s, it, it’s a really interesting challenge.

Mark: Oh, I, I think so. And, and you know, it’s inter something that, uh, I’ve realized in the last few hours is, uh, you know, when we were talking about beyond the mountain. And then I’m thinking now of Alpine mentors.

Steve: Mm-hmm.

Mark: and I’m. kind of wondering if, uh, not to turn a question back around or anything, but wondering if in both of those circumstances, you know, almost an attempt at formalizing, um, your relationship, first your relationship with climbing and then formalizing the leadership and educational aspect of it, if, um, those were, both of them were too far ahead of their

Steve: Yeah.

Mark: Like, and, um, maybe we’d talk about that, you know, at some point, but I’m, uh, and when we talk about, you know, the, the responsibility of passing on knowledge, I, I think almost now, um. I would use the word the term duty. I mean, they’re kind Similar thing. Yeah. Um, a little

Steve: a little stronger. Yeah. It

Mark: two syllables. you know, it’s, And, and, um, and, and it’s something, and, and this idea of sort of, you know, stewardship not only of the act of the resource, but of the activities. Uh, I think it’s, I, I, yeah. Crawling off disappearing into the desert or whatever, and not sharing anything is an absolute abdication of responsibility and, and a disregard for duty. Like, not every, um, you know, not everyone survived the things that we Did for in you know, for whatever reason being survivors confers to, to, to educate, to lead, to inform. Make oneself available to people who are, uh, and, I, and I want to, I’m just, you know, following in the footsteps, but I’m just, saying, no, it’s following a path that we also walked. But, You know, we didn’t make the path. We were just on it. Now other people are on it, and that is a, uh, I, I mean the, uh, it’s pretty easy. It would be pretty easy to sort of, you know, Ted Kaczinski style, just piece out disappear. um, it.

Steve: Thought about it.

Mark: Just, oh, Yeah. yeah.

Steve: lie.

Mark: And, but then to, uh, have one conversation with one person that shows you, um, that, that, that informs you, like, oh, I can make a difference. I can, you know, in inform, I mean, I’m, I. am. Absolutely. You know, when I, uh, kind of, you know, was outta the climbing community for a long time, disregarding it, et cetera, somehow found my way back in and then, you know, meeting Hayden Miller at a presentation that I was given here in Bozeman in 2022. And, you know, so at that point, he’s 20 years old, and, uh, I signed his copy of Kiss or Kill for him with the old Roger Baxter Jones, um, counsel, which was, you know, come back alive, come back, friends, get to the top in that order. And, and when his brother posted, you know, after Hayden was died, um, and, and his brother shared. that, That title page in that book with, you know, my admonition to him. ’cause apparently in 2022 I saw something of myself him. when Roger said those words to me before he died, uh, um, they affected me forever. And I think it’s, IM, you know, I thought it was important to like, maybe try and put something in proper perspective for someone who is thirsty beyond our capacity to understand thirst. ’cause we don’t remember how we were necessarily how hungry when we were 20, years old. And Just,

Steve: I kind of do, it was a little, it was pretty visceral.

Mark: I, I, don’t know how accurate my, my own memory of that, of that. It, it, You know it, but I

Steve: don’t mean to take us off on a side. Quest here,

Mark: but, but I did, you know, write this, you know, something recently, because, you know, when I came back from the first trip to the Alps in 84, um, IG you know, I, by the time I was, had been over there for two months, I, my fucking long hair and I had a mustache and a beard, you know, ’cause I would, et cetera. I get on the Swiss air flight in Zurich and one of the flight attendants, you know, I’d just, so, I just sold these route and, you know, I’d seen my potential. absolutely saw my life laid out before me and I knew where it was gonna happen. And I then I’d get on the plane in Zurich and one of the flight attendants mistakes me for Reinhold Messner, which is super weird because it, I like this. bit older than I am. Yeah. But, you know, I’ve probably had that, that look of, you know, with him, with the sort of plaid or tartan headband, um, you know, at the wild eye and wild-eyed and, and that sort of thing. And, and all of that. Like, I, I can feel that the culmination in that moment

Steve: Mm.

Mark: Of like, shit, I am gonna be

Steve: Mm.

Mark: I do. And, and I was absolutely thirsty for it. Um, but I, and I think, you know, helping, we do have a duty and a responsibility to, uh, help people manage their thirst if they’re coming, if they’re on that same

Steve: So, yeah. I had written this question, which was, which is, um, you know, when, when. The theoretical, not so theoretical in this story climber who hands you a copy of Kiss or Kill. And by the way, I just, for anyone who hasn’t read it, postal listeners have must read. And I think like any great work of art, I think it gets better with time. And I know you may disagree with that or, or maybe not. But um, but I think that that is certainly, uh, the case here. And, but they have, as you said, you called it thirst, but a willingness to sacrifice. Yeah. A lot. What do you, do you warn them off or do you recognize that a warning won’t matter or at least it will very rarely work?

Mark: Um, I. yeah, I’ve thought of since.

Steve: Speaking of duty,

Mark: speaking of duty, and, and, and, uh, you know, since October when Baylin was killed. I did have thought about this a lot. And wrote a little bit about it and just, I had to sort of personalize it because anybody, I know that, at that point in my own trajectory and life, anybody who tried to restrain me, I would respond by going harder. Yeah. You know, if anybody had said, Hey, whoa, kill your jets young man, you know, this ends in the, you know, you, with you hitting the fucking ground, you know, I’m like, yeah, I’ll show you. Which is also my relationship with my father. You know, it’s like I’ll, I’m gonna prove you wrong

Steve: or your relationship with original sin.

Mark: Yeah. I am. I shall

Steve: big air quotes original

Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, so how do we have this, I, how do you have the conversation where, you know I mean? And at, at some point, you know, when, I was in relationship, you know, when I, I consider that I’ve had three great mentors in, in Climbing, which is John Krakauer, Jeff Lowe, and John Bouchard. And at a certain point, you know, when Bouchard was watching my trajectory, you know, he, he, and, and he was familiar with Yukio Mishima’s book, sun and Steel, and he, you know, there was a moment he made a decision not to share that book with me because he said it would’ve been like throwing gasoline on the fire. 15 years later we were having the conversation about that, you know, his moment there. And I said, dude, I’d already read it. At that point the gas had already hit the fire. So, um, you know, that had already happened, but it was, but there was him making a conscious choice of how he was going to communicate, what he was going to share, what he was going to say. In order that I could continue on my trajectory but not death. And this, and, and maybe it’s it’s individual in, um, because after, you know, Hayden had done the reality bath and we met and we sat down and we talked about it. And then I’m, you know, over the next couple of weeks I’m going through my head like, how do I, is there a way, is there a place for me to, um, assist on this path without putting up barriers?

Steve: Something

Mark: like how, how would I talk to younger me in a way that helped me, you know, helped younger me achieve my potential and do what I wanted to do, but also be fucking paranoid enough. to, and lucky enough, which we, that’s the part maybe we don’t get to control. Um, like how, what are the words? How are, how, did, how do they sound? What do you,

Steve: did you, what’s your answer? yeah, no, I know. I mean, there is no answer to this.

Mark: I Exactly. And, and, and I don’t know, you know, given, like right now, okay, I’d sit down with, you know, Hayden as, as an example and have a conversation right now. if, You know, what would I say in this moment? Like, and I’ve

Steve: If you had a time machine and you could have, go back, gone back to, you know, a year and a half ago before when he was alive and talked to him for 15 minutes, what would you and I think, you know, we’re maybe overthinking it because you can, the, you don’t know the words until you put yourself there and the words have to come. You know, we, we’ve talked, you and I have had side conversations about writing and you know how you sometimes have to put yourself in a certain situation, and you were talking about writing around an image earlier today with me and, and sharing that story. And, you know, that’s a way of putting yourself in a frame of mind and a place in a time. And the memories come right. Like you think you don’t remember. And I think the same is true with some things like this and the words will come, but we have to put ourselves in the position, make ourselves available and show up.

Mark: Yeah.

Steve: And not like, you know, walk off into the whiteout or crawl off into the desert or whatever.

Mark: or whatever. yes. Insert disengagement metaphor here. Yeah.

Steve: Right, right,

Mark: I think it’s, it it’s true. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s just saying yes to, to a conversation. Uh, each time or, or making it, you know, known that, Hey, I’m willing to have a Or, you know, all of the talks that I’ve done recently, you know, the best, all I’m trying to get to with the presentation is the question Because this is the best, aspect of it. It can’t start there, You gotta like, get those people in a particular emotional Um, or whatever, Set the stage so that you can have the, you know, q and a. And, uh, and I, you know, and it’s hard. I mean, I, I remember when I was, you know, very young, my uncle took me to see a slideshow that John Roskelley gave at REI in Seattle.

Steve: Nice.

Mark: And it was Uli Biaho and Gasherbrum. And, and, and, you know, I was like, I was shaking. Thinking about asking a question. you know, As a, as a young man. And then my uncle took me up to like meet the man. And I, like, I, I, can transport my I know how that old original REI store smells. I know where the fucking whole thing went down. I remember distinctly some of these images. I remember Roskelley sitting there or standing there. And, um, and, uh, I think I’ve, I, I think we’ve had this conversation or, um, you know, because I had informed him about that, I had seen that and that was like basically one of the things that was responsible for launching Um, but just like, but he, there was not a, um, I didn’t, I, I did, I couldn’t hear him giving me permission to ask the question. Nice. Um, so I, I think that’s the important, you know, uh, uh, an important aspect.

Steve: Yeah. A hundred

Mark: of it is like, okay, set the table. Set the stage. Say that like, I’m here

Steve: opening conversation. yeah, yeah.

Mark: And to, and accept all questions. Yeah. You know, always, you know, because you like some of the very, you know, best, uh, engagements with a, a person come from, you know, wrapping your head around the question that you didn’t want to answer.

Steve: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, and I, I think that this goes to one of the things that I wanted to kind of bring out when we were talking about your writing and. It’s a theme that has come up a lot in this voice of the mountains exploration in the last couple years, is this whole understanding or idea of vulnerability as a strength, as requiring a lot of strength as, as a muscle that gets stronger as well. And I think that that’s, you know, the, this is another thing we’ve talked about inside conversations, but one of the things that I’ve had to, that’s been most difficult for me to overcome has been the pain of losing people that I’ve become close And opening myself up to new relationships with people who are engaged in Alpinism. Yeah. There was a long time I couldn’t do that, especially after Hayden died. Like I was completely shut down for that for a, a really long time because I just, I just couldn’t suffer that again. Like I was just, it was so, so raw and so I protected myself by withdrawing, You know? And, and that’s been a really hard thing to be like, okay, I like, you know, the person I want to become is through this discomfort. And to be just uncomfortable, I have to be vulnerable and I have to put myself out there, as you said, take all the questions that was really nice

Mark: and know you’re, by being that open, you are potentially setting yourself up that you wouldn’t volunteer for if you knew that it was know, gonna happen. And I think. I mean, I, that one of the essays in Kiss or Kill A Lifetime before Death was about me avoiding a relationship with Fred Vimal. Because, you know, when I met him and I knew what he’d done, I was like, you’re gonna burn in and I don’t want to like feel too much when that happens. And the potential for a wonderful relationship was there. I rejected it. happened anyway, sometime later. And then he, then he was killed in the mountains and, and I had to sit down and recognize oh, I have, I made a choice not to have a relationship with this young man because I was afraid of strongly. Some form of loss. And, well, you know, God dammit, we, it turns out we, we can survive That, that, feeling. Experiencing that thing. And I’m not saying willy nilly open yourself to all relationships with all, you know, people or whatever, but that was when it when became very apparent to me that I was essentially self-censoring, you know, life experience. And, um, and that I needed in order to become who I want to become and to ex, you know, experience all of, you know, the, the potential of what a human being can experience in the context of my existence. Um, I need to be open. I need to, I need to,

Steve: yeah.

Mark: You know, have those be willing to have those relationships without forecasting, becoming dependent on an

Steve: Oh, editing.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah.

Steve: I want to pivot to, it’d be, I feel like, would be remiss if we didn’t touch on Nanga Parbat because it’s a place where we both had, I would say, life changing experiences. There’s a particular moment I would like you to take us to, and you’ve written about it and told me about the story. I’ve heard it from Barry as well. But tell Barry Blanchard, but take me to four guys hanging on one ice screw in the middle of a descent of the Rupal Face hit by an avalanche. There’s, I mean, what four guys? That’s, let’s say 800 pounds of static force, plus the weight of the snow pounding on you for half an hour take. Take us to that experience.

Mark: Man, We

CTA: Thanks for listening to Part one of the Voice of the Mountains episode with Mr. Mark Twight. Part two is gonna drop seven days later, and we are going to pick right up with Mark’s incredible story of survival on the Rupal Face. But stay tuned for the end where we really get deep about what matters in our lives today. One of the most common questions I get is, how should I get started with training? Well, they say the first step is the hardest, so let’s make that easy. We are offering free four week samples of our most popular training plants for mountaineering, trail, running, climbing, and more. Go to uphillathlete.com/letsgo to sign up for our newsletter, and you will not only get monthly insights on training for uphill athletes, but you’ll also get a sample training plan. It’s totally free, so why wait? That’s uphillathlete.com/LETSGO.