Incline vs. Flat Training

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January 3, 2021 at 2:11 pm #48771

Devin Geoghegan
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Hi,

Curious about other’s thoughts. I read a lot about how people log tons of miles running ~flat terrain. A lot of training “manuals” / “plans” focus more on hilly / inclined terrain / treadmill. Given many of us target heart rate training, and slow twitch vs. fast twitch fibers, wouldn’t walking on steep 10%++ treadmill settings at various speeds (walking up to running) be far more specific to mountaineering than flat running assuming you hit the same HR Zones?? Also, the incline triggers more muscles and is less impactful on joints. I ask b/c I am an inefficient runner, but pretty efficient at incline loaded pack hiking. (80% of my miles are walking / incline walking / loaded pack training) For example, depending on how “fresh” I am, a 5 mph 5 mile run will have my HR btw 135 and 170 (170 usually post heavy leg weight days), whereas in time trials carrying 50 lbs on 20% grade terrain I can ascend ~1,350 ft in just under an hour at an average HR of 110. http://tpks.ws/QZCZGPM42R2YPTI4FEYTRMETSU

Sincerely,
Dev.
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Posted In: General Training Discussion

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Dada on January 4, 2021 at 12:13 am #48780

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bback on January 4, 2021 at 8:08 am #48784

Around here I’ve only heard people talk about flat running for very specific reasons(recovery, speedwork, workout before a hard effort[volume], etc). Otherwise, It’s rolling hills to steep depending on where one is at in a training plan and what energy system is being trained. That seems to be the same for when a person starts using loaded pack training.

As I understand it (I’m a nobody and could be wrong), the difference between the workouts is the energy system. So what rolling hills means to each person is unique to them and their fitness for z1 or z2 while still having the ability to recovery between workouts.

You talked about inefficient running. Does your goal event require efficient running? Mine doesn’t. I just shuffle jog like a high speed mental ward patient to get my heart rate up to z2. With the rolling terrain outside my front door I have trouble getting to z2 in a 1.5 hour walk/hike. If I add a pack to get my heart rate up I end up making every workout a strength workout due to the weight being so high. Thus I would not be working the correct energy system and have zero recovery.

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Devin Geoghegan on January 4, 2021 at 9:36 am #48787

No, nothing I’m training for requires running…I hear about flat running on other forums…funny “high speed mental ward patient”…I agree with what you said…flat running is also just so much harder on your body than uphill running or uphill walking…I find a Z2 or 3 flat run takes more time to recover from than either uphill running or walking…as you said, other than needing to run flat to get into a specific zone, its not as fruitful for mountaineering…uphill or incline treadmill just activates more muscles…

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Anonymous on January 17, 2021 at 7:06 am #49356

…wouldn’t walking on steep 10%++ treadmill settings at various speeds (walking up to running) be far more specific to mountaineering than flat running assuming you hit the same HR Zones??

Yes, but go steeper. 10% is pretty low-angle. I think you need to be above 20% for it to be mountain-specific.

The biggest reason to mix it up with outdoor runs (flat or otherwise) is mental. I love using a treadmill for intensity (much more precise), but easy steady-state sessions are a killer. Putting in a lot of hours on a treadmill would be tough.

I ask b/c I am an inefficient runner, but pretty efficient at incline loaded pack hiking.

This is pretty common in uphill sports. The repetition and impact is harsh in flat running. It’s common for mountain athletes’ CV fitness to improve well ahead of their flat running strength. That leads to “easy” runs from a CV perspective being brutal on the legs. The heart and lungs are unphased, but the legs get beat up.

The solution? The fast mental patient approach.

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Devin Geoghegan on January 17, 2021 at 9:17 am #49367

Thank you Scott. That makes sense. After recovering from lower left leg paralysis and emergency spine surgery in June 2017, running outside is jarring, so I only run on a treadmill w/extra “cushion” or shock absorption. I’m working under the assumption that time in a given heart zone is more important than speed or miles in that heart zone. My AeT is ~152 / AnT is ~172 / MHR >180 (42 yrs old), 11.6% apart, so I have a little more AeT vs. AnT to compress w/Z2 training, which seems a better goal than running speed. I spent ~70% of 550 hours training in 2019 in Z1/2 to rebuild after years recovering from surgery et al.

Participant

frnkr on January 18, 2021 at 10:46 am #49452

@scott I’m exactly in that situation: I cannot increase much more running or incline walk on a stepper machine due to the leg recovery so I’ve been playing with the idea of adding more xc skiing into my training in the form of afternoon sessions (I usually do my cardio in the morning). Xc skiing is easier for my legs and especially on double poling it’s more work for my upper body and CV.

What do you think abt that and any idea how much that translates into running overall?

My thinking goes that logging more base training anyways increases my fitness and thus it is beneficial. Also, by doing ME program starting next month or so I can then increase running near summer and benefit from my increased base ?

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juskojj on January 26, 2021 at 12:43 pm #49780

So what are us flat landers supposed to do to train for mountains?

Participant

Devin Geoghegan on January 26, 2021 at 12:49 pm #49781

Stairs, incline treadmill w & w/o weighted pack, box step-ups / downs, squats, lunges, reverse lunges (both weighted), focus on single leg over double leg where possible (e.g. pistol squats)…I also really like deadlifts and Russian kettle-bell swings for posterior chain work…for the heavy loads a lot of lower and upper back work, but often I read about peeps who ignore chest b/c its not “functional,” but if you workout the back muscles you need to develop the offsetting chest muscles for balance / health. Working out one set should be complimented by the opposing set.

Participant

Lyle F Bogart on January 27, 2021 at 12:53 pm #49868

juskojj–
I’m fortunate enough to live near some fine mountains, but time often prevents me getting there. In order to improve my uphill capacities, I will often do a long (~5 miles) tire drag (standard light pickup truck or SUV type tire–30-ish pounds) on flattish or rolling roads. This can be made more or less easy with the use of trekking poles (easier on the legs, higher cardiorespiratory demand) or without poles (harder on the legs, and, for me, lower cardiorespiratory demand). Also, I like to use a chest/shoulder harness for dragging as this engages the core muscles considerably more than a wait/hip belt. Great fun 😉

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Anonymous on January 28, 2021 at 6:37 am #49927

@devin-geoghegan:

I’m working under the assumption that time in a given heart zone is more important than speed or miles in that heart zone.

Sort of: It’s actually time at X speed that is the most relevant. The “external load” (speed, weight, etc) is the ideal thing to monitor, but because of variations in terrain, mountain athletes need to substitute heart rate for speed. That is until a real power meter for uphill sports is available. (No, Stryd is not it. Its algorithm for mountain sports is too variable.)

But…

My AeT is ~152 / AnT is ~172 / MHR >180 (42 yrs old), 11.6% apart, so I have a little more AeT vs. AnT to compress w/Z2 training, which seems a better goal than running speed.

…you are correct. Focus on improving your metabolism (expressed by heart rate thresholds) before working on speed. Eventually, changes in heart rate will stop. At that point, speed/pace should be the focus.

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Anonymous on January 28, 2021 at 6:40 am #49928

@frank:

I’ve been playing with the idea of adding more xc skiing into my training in the form of afternoon sessions (I usually do my cardio in the morning). Xc skiing is easier for my legs and especially on double poling it’s more work for my upper body and CV.

Awesome. If running is not a performance focus, then I think that you could do all of your base training with XC if you like. It’s an awesome weight-bearing activity (maybe the best?) and working upper and lower is very relevant for mountain sports.

…so I can then increase running near summer and benefit from my increased base?

That sounds like a good plan. If running performance is really not a priority, you could even substitute roller skiing for running. However, there is value in the strength effect that comes from running.

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Anonymous on January 28, 2021 at 6:44 am #49929

@juskojj:

I grew up in Saskatchewan, so I speak from experience when I say that (depending on your life constraints), these are how I would rank your options:

1) Move to the mountains. There are no substitutes for immersion, not only with terrain but culture and tribal knowledge.

2) Use a mix of treadmills, tall buildings, small hills, and (probably the best) XC skiing. (Take lessons for the latter if necessary.)

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