JasperI suffer from tight hamstrings. Maybe it is anatomical, or maybe it is from too much skiing. I try to stretch and roll them after, or before, every ski. When I take rest days I usually tread water in a hot spring.
Does anybody have any exercises or stretches that work wonders on the hams?
If not I might just move to Spain and eat jamon de bellota for the rest of my days.
Posted In: General Training Discussion
Sit on the floor with legs straight out in front of you, bend one leg back at the knee so your foot is near your butt but your knees are side by side. Hands behind you on the floor and lean back as much as you need for the stretch.
I’m not sure what this stretch is called but it is great form my hamstrings.
Do hip opening stretches too and don’t just do it when you ski, do it twice a day (ideally…) all year long.
I was not able to touch my toes for my first 20-odd years. By my late-20s I was able finally able to get there. I did it with foam rolling (hamstrings, quads, calves, IT band, glutes), full ROM movements under load (butt-to-heels squats, single leg DL, RDLs, etc.), and dynamic stretching.
Due to some knee injuries, I no longer do heavy deep squats but I still do the rest along with unweighted (body weight) deep squats and I’ve started doing yoga, which has been great! At this point, my glutes, hips, and calves that are relatively more tight than my hamstrings.
Looking back, though, I don’t think my tight hamstrings were limiting me at all, it was partly just my own desire to be able to touch my toes.
Tight hamstrings can also a result of shortened quads. With quad dominant sports like skiing, the hips and quads get shortened, so the hamstrings must respond by lengthening. When you stretch your hamstring does it help? Foam rolling is a great way to work out tension in the hip flexors that ultimately relieves tension in the hamstrings: https://uphillathlete.com/foam-rolling-why-how/
Low back tension can also contribute to tight hamstrings, so maintaining good core strength and spinal mobility is also helpful.
Finally, I see a lot of people with this kind of tightness when they spend too much time above aerobic threshold, so taking a look at your training zones and ensuring you’re spending the majority of your training time at an easy enough effort could help.
In my experience it’s not the muscles that need stretching (is that even possible? discuss), but the fascia. Hamstrings are part of what the fascia experts (Robert Schleip, Tom Myers) call the “superior back line”. This runs from under the feet to over the top of the head. Here’s a “magic” trick: assess how far down your shins you can get in a relaxed standing “touch your toes” stance. Repeat a few times to get max (without forcing). Now get a tennis ball and stand on it (one foot at a time!). Roll it under your feet. Work the sore spots. Retest.
You will notice your hamstrings have “lengthened”. I don’t know whether this enances performance or not, but I take it as “proof of concept” = I’d suggest to NOT try “stretching”/mobilising your hamstrings in isolation. Get in positions where you can impact the whole back line.
SimonM
I’d 2nd this!
Hereâs a âmagicâ trick: assess how far down your shins you can get in a relaxed standing âtouch your toesâ stance. Repeat a few times to get max (without forcing). Now get a tennis ball and stand on it (one foot at a time!). Roll it under your feet. Work the sore spots. Retest.
You will notice your hamstrings have âlengthenedâ. I donât know whether this enances performance or not, but I take it as âproof of conceptâ = Iâd suggest to NOT try âstretchingâ/mobilising your hamstrings in isolation. Get in positions where you can impact the whole back line.SimonM
I used to have a “tight” hamstring problem. I spent a year stretching and foam rolling for up to an hour a day, using lacrosse balls and other implements. I had read Kelly Starrett’s Supple Leopard, Desk Bound, and Ready to Run books (A popular Physical Therapist in the Crossfit community who has grown very popular in the “Mobility” community). I thought it was helping me at first, but never could quite get to where I wanted to be with my hamstrings, and also my squat depth – one of my many “mobility” goals at the time.
Below are some of my thoughts after several years of working through this. The thoughts are likely to be considered controversial by some (many?). I’m certainly no expert and don’t claim to be. However, you can take this as some information to be considered and either accepted or tossed away. Sorry this post is so long, but I felt like I need to write this much to do the topic justice. I’m not affiliated with Uphill Athlete, other then as a very satisfied client.
Towards the end of my “mobility” year, I found two medical doctors who coach strength training online and were focusing a lot of time on helping people with pain (both from sport and non-sport related issues) through education and something called the “Biopsychosocial” model – opposed to the traditional “Biomedical” model. They talked a lot about what scientific research (mostly meta analysis – a review of several studies on a specific topic including the methodology of said study) was showing vs what the medical education programs, physical therapy education programs, etc. had historically taught. I was very interested in this approach. Scott Johnston’s scientific approach in TNFNA was part of the lunre for me as well and I tend to favor this kind of thinking.
These two Medical Doctors made several comments during online live Q/A sessions over the next year regarding stretching and foam rolling for: a) performance, b) recovery, and c) injury prevention – not being backed by any modern valid scientific study. The ability of stretching to improve: d) flexibility – came with some important considerations to be aware of. When I heard that, I thought they must be “nuts” and I mostly ignored the idea for many months. After all, I had been told to stretch since I was in primary school physical education class, and through my entire life (42 years now). Everything you read online is all about “mobility” and how important it is. In the meantime I continued to heed their advice in other areas of strength training and pain issues that were helping with my Uphill Athlete training. I told myself after all “we can’t all be right all the time? “. After some time building some trust in them, and recognizing that I hadn’t made much real progress in the past year with al my “mobility” work, I finally broke down and read an article they recommended that reviewed and summarized several peer reviewed scientific studies and some case studies. The article wasn’t written or affiliated with these two Doctors, but they felt the information in it was mostly well supported by science (they say disregard the muscle knots – there is no proof of such and the article alludes to as much). I don’t know If I’m allowed to link outside sources in these forum posts, but I’ll try: http://www.painscience.com/articles/stretching.php
It wasn’t something that happened over-night, it was a multi-year journey. In the end, I have not stretched or foam rolled in almost a year. I have been training under Uphill Athlete protocols for about 4 years and I am currently training for a 50 mile trail race. I run six days a week, about 60 miles a week at the moment, two days strength training, a couple days for an hour at the climbing gym. This has been my best training year so far. I attribute much of that to building up work-capacity over the past several years, and also to UA training plans and coaching that is better modulated my workouts then I did on my own. However, understanding the Biopsychosocial model and how it affects my body has been huge in regards to non specific-pain that pops up from time to time when training high volumes or even just living life.
In the end, I learned the power of the “Psychological impacts” (self-talk and perceptions) and “Social impacts (what professionals, doctors, friends, and others say to you) has a huge effect on outcomes. I learned to stop telling myself “that my muscles are tight”, and that I need to “improve my mobility” to reach a certain goal. Instead I say strength is specific, and my body learns neuromuscular patterns through practice. I started squatting more and trying squat variations, and soon I was hitting my depth in just a few months.
My hamstrings can still have a “tight” sensation sometimes after long workouts or big training weeks. I know it will go away in a day or two and I don’t fret about it. I still do warm-ups before any workout. My warm-ups just look like easy or light versions of whatever exercise I’m about to do. A 5 minute walk can do more for me then any amount of stretching and foam rolling when I’m feeling “tight” or sore from a hard workout and have been sitting at my desk for too long.
Great stuff, crambida!
I will say this: if you are doing 2 x 1 hour a week at the climbing gym, you are “stretching” and doing mobility work without having to think about it :).
The article you linked to is not a good one, imo, although I can understand why it put you off “stretching”. In the first place, this is someone who chooses not to believe anything that hasn’t been “proved” by a journal article, or mostly, in this case, by meta-analyses. When he looks outside the journals he firstly quotes “…many Kenyans don’t stretch”, but also has an anecdote about Kenyans laughing at Kipchoge while they (and he) stretches.
I was “just” in Kenya for three weeks – Kenyan elite runners “stretch” a LOT – both dynamic (mostly) and statically.
Same opening quote: “Why was legendary coach Arthur Lydiard not a fan of stretching?” Arthur was not a fan of conventional “stretching”, but he was a HUGE fan of mobility and dynamic stretching: he had a hill drill (taught at Lydiard Foundation courses to this day) designed SPECIFICALLY to stretch the calf muscles and tone the Achilles tendons. There’s never been a journal article written on that.
Apart from these and other inaccuracies, my biggest beef with the article is that the guy has managed to write going on for 18,000 words on “stretching” without mentioning fascia ONCE. Incredible! So I can’t take it seriously at all.
As the quote from David Moorcroft’s coach makes clear, runners in particular have to balance the need to restore the range of motion they need to function efficiently, without losing the essential rigidity they need for power transfer, or “recoil”. Kipchoge has that perfectly, and the Kenyans in general have much more of it than “we” do – they don’t run like “us”.
I used to think, like this guy and those he quotes, that the best “stretching” for running was sprinting. Then I found out that 100m and 200m sprinter Michael Johnson (four Olympic golds, multiple world records) HEAVILY used the Active Isolated Stretching system of Aaron Mattes – one of the systems of “stretching” dismissed by your painscience guy. The elite physio Gerard Hartmann reports: “For instance, behind the glamour of the amazing Michael Johnson is a warm-up routine that has 40 minutes of isolated stretching as the main ingredient. Eighty percent of Michael’s pre-race warm-up is done stretching on a treatment table – with very minimal running before going onto the start blocks.”
My point is, there is “stretching” and then there is movement stuff that works..I guess we all have to find what that is for ourselves.
Simon.
Hey Simon,
I appreciate you taking the time to read though all of my post and the summary article as well. I also appreciate how cordial your response is, it’s nice to be able to have a reasonable discussion of differing view points – on the internet of all places đ .
I have some thoughts and questions. I’m not sure I understood all your points fully, so set me straight where I missed something.
I get the tongue-in-cheek thought regarding climbing be stretching, but I think that is an example of where we have to define what “stretching” is. If we define all movement as stretching, then it’s hard to isolate what helps and what doesn’t. I’m referring to stretching as defined by one of the three common categories:
Static: place the muscle in a lengthened position and hold this position; often held at an uncomfortable but tolerable end range of motion between 10 and 30 seconds.
Dynamic: utilizes active muscle contraction and momentum to lengthen muscle without holding the end-range position.
Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation (PNF): there are 2 types typically utilized, âcontract-relaxâ (CR) and âcontract-relax, agonist contractâ (CRAC)
CR: muscle being targeted is brought to end-range where resistance is felt. The person being stretched then actively contracts against resistance (isometrically), and then the targeted muscle is taken into a new position of limitation.
CRAC: same as CR but instead of targeted muscle being contracted, the opposite muscle group is contracted against resistance. Then, the targeted muscle is taken into a new position of limitation.
I don’t think my time at the climbing gym fits in any of these three categories. Nor do I put my body at the ends of my range of motion any more climbing then my time running down a trail or strength training at the gym.
The article didn’t put me off of stretching. The scientific research on the effects of stretching for Performance, Recovery, Injury Prevention, and Increased Flexibility did. The article is just somewhat convenient as it quotes the science and has direct links for anyone who wants to view the studies first hand. It was a very long and difficult process for me to overcome the narratives I had heard my whole life that stretching was important. It took much more education on the matter, over a long period of time, for me to arrive at my current understanding. As the science is updated on these matters, I will of course revise my position.
The text regarding “Why Kenyan’s don’t run” is not part of the summary article or it’s analysis. That text is a block quote comment from “Bob Cooper, Runnerâs World Magazine” and is properly sited and linked in the authors citations. I don’t know much about Kenyan Runners in regards to stretching – but the disagreement you have would be with Bob Cooper at Runners World, not the science that the summary article reviewed. Ditto on Lydiard as well.
I’m confused about your comment “this is someone who chooses not to believe anything that hasn’t been “proved” by a journal article, or mostly, in this case, by meta-analyses”. That’s how science is supposed to work. Maybe I’m mistaking your point here? In Science, we make a hypothesis, like “Stretching improves performance and prevents injury”, and then we design a study to prove this. If were successful, we try to replicate our study again. If possible, we get other scientists to test our hypothesis as well. A meta-analyses is the gold-standard in research as it compares the results of many studies and evaluates the methodology as well. All of the studies that had been conducted and verified showed no benefit for performance, recovery, or injury prevention in comparison to the control groups. The studies did show a small increase of range of motion that would last for up to 36 hours, essentially saying you have to repeat the stretch regularly to maintain the increase. Further, studies showed that this increase seems to be related to improvement in pain tolerance to the stretch through repeated bouts, and not elongation of muscle fibers.
The other things you mention are anecdotal, not scientific. The anecdotal can be helpful in explaining things when backed by evidence, but on it’s own it’s not very helpful in understanding what is going on to drive an outcome.
There are tons of amazing athletes who swear by stretching. However, does that mean that stretching is getting them that performance? Those athletes and coaches were/are subject to the same information, narratives, and education on stretching we have been subject to.
The science on fascia stretching, muscle knots, adhesions, or myofascial trigger points is not good either. It is, however, a very lucrative way to make money. I spent a lot on it myself.
The one area we seem to agree on is “movement”. Movement is a useful way to warm-up for exercise and makes us feel better when we have been stagnating at a desk or standing position for periods of time.
Even if we didn’t change each others minds, we certainly better off for this healthy discussion.
Peace,
David
Hey David!
Yes, how fantastic to be able to have a collegial discussion!
You are obviously a far better climber than me (actually, probably not all that hard!) if you can spend time on the wall and not hit your end-ranges. But OK. And yes, I found myself putting “stretching” in quotes all the time, because there are SO many varieties, including yes, “movement”.
The text regarding “Why Kenyan’s don’t run” is not part of the summary article or it’s analysis. That text is a block quote comment from “Bob Cooper, Runnerâs World Magazine” and is properly sited and linked in the authors citations. I don’t know much about Kenyan Runners in regards to stretching – but the disagreement you have would be with Bob Cooper at Runners World, not the science that the summary article reviewed. Ditto on Lydiard as well.
My disagreement IS with the painscience author, since he has used that quote – right up front – to bolster his arguments. He’s introduced false information to set the scene for his 18,000 words that follow. Later he has another quote/anecdote that contradicts that first quote. So, putting the “science” on one side for a moment, he’s already lost credibility: he doesn’t know the subject.
I’m confused about your comment “this is someone who chooses not to believe anything that hasn’t been “proved” by a journal article, or mostly, in this case, by meta-analyses”. That’s how science is supposed to work. Maybe I’m mistaking your point here? In Science, we make a hypothesis, like “Stretching improves performance and prevents injury”, and then we design a study to prove this. If were successful, we try to replicate our study again. If possible, we get other scientists to test our hypothesis as well. A meta-analyses is the gold-standard in research as it compares the results of many studies and evaluates the methodology as well. All of the studies that had been conducted and verified showed no benefit for performance, recovery, or injury prevention in comparison to the control groups. The studies did show a small increase of range of motion that would last for up to 36 hours, essentially saying you have to repeat the stretch regularly to maintain the increase. Further, studies showed that this increase seems to be related to improvement in pain tolerance to the stretch through repeated bouts, and not elongation of muscle fibers.
The other things you mention are anecdotal, not scientific. The anecdotal can be helpful in explaining things when backed by evidence, but on it’s own it’s not very helpful in understanding what is going on to drive an outcome.
I understand your point of view about how science is “supposed” to work. In my field (medicine/health) it is now widely accepted that “science” and the process of peer-reviewed “scientific” publication is now so corrupt/broken that there is less than a 50% chance that the results of any randomly chosen scientific paper are “true” (Google John Ioannidis for more on this).
@cramblda, you seem to be saying you have given up on stretching and that it doesn’t help flexiblity, but the link you posted to explain why it doesn’t do anything says:
There is really only one stretching benefit that seems to be clear and (almost) uncontroversial: it does actually increase flexibility. Even just plain old static stretching. For whatever itâs worth, people do seem to be more flexible when they stretch regularly for a while. Real elongation of tissue is elusive, and hard to sustain; but it can be done. The phenomenon is widely observed, and seems to have been confirmed by experiments.
Does that fit with your understanding?
Personally I don’t care about most forms of flexibility, but my hamstrings make it almost impossible for me to pike, which means I’m mechanically incapable of performing an L-sit, good hanging leg raise, or indeed even just sitting on the floor upright with my legs straight.
@Jasper, one thing I did hear from a PT was that for a good improvement in flexibility, it’s important to massage, foam-roll, or otherwise “work” the muscle before you stretch it. Something about the limit of elongation actually being partly neuromuscular, i.e. your nervous system preventing it from stretching any longer, which the foam rolling temporarily interrupts.
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