Be Gentle With Failure

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:29:03 Steve She is enough. She’s too scared to climb outside. She’s too heavy to climb hard. She’s only sponsored because she’s cute and blond. These are all things that have been said about today’s guest, a guest that throughout her 25 years of climbing has sparked derision with every competition, winning insult with every first female ascent and doubt with every groundbreaking accomplishment. 00:00:29:05 – 00:01:04:15 Steve And most painfully, she has been horrifically bullied by climbers. By climbers, our own community. Misogyny in climbing is something that has surfaced before on Voice of the Mountains. And in this case, it wasn’t the bullying, but the fact that the bully felt supported by his community, our community that rang the alarm bells for me. It was 2018, and after enduring eight years of online bullying, culminating in a photo of her face onto an obese woman in a bikini, Sasha DiGiulian exposed Joe Kinder. 00:01:04:17 – 00:01:28:23 Steve Frankly, I’ve never met a climber that inspires so much disdain because Sasha DiGiulian is one hell of a good rock climber. And in my estimation, there are few sports as tough as rock climbing. The kind of climbing where waiting the first holds cousins searing pain in your fingertips and the shoes you wear are so painfully tight you can only stand to have them on for a few minutes at a time. 00:01:29:00 – 00:02:02:17 Steve What Sasha shares with us today is her humanity and core to the mission of Voice of the Mountains is to show that the best climbers in the world are as human, as emotional, as warm as you are, and as I am. Yes. Sasha gets scared. And yes, Sasha is strong. And yes, Sasha is sponsored by the biggest brands in climbing and she owns her own nutrition company and she’s a United Nations goodwill ambassador. 00:02:02:19 – 00:02:33:14 Steve You see the world from your point of view. We all do. The default setting for humans is to be egocentric. That’s totally normal. But when a petite blond climbs better than 99.9% of the rest of climbers, it can bring out the worst of that egocentrism, protecting our individual egos is what enables the rise of sometimes ugly behavior, including abhorrent bullying. 00:02:33:16 – 00:03:04:12 Steve Listen carefully today and you will hear in her voice how much she cares and how hard she works. Listen to her tone and you will feel her utter humanity. And if you can park your ego long enough to see that your belief in the talent of others is your ego’s way of excusing your lack of prioritization of your own goals, you will feel her obsession, her drive and her focus. 00:03:04:14 – 00:03:37:21 Steve Humanity is fallible. That much Sasha story clearly shows us. But obsession, more often than not, has at its source the coyote of modern times, the devil on your shoulders. The inner critic is so important because it is that voice whose whispers are the source of insecurity, the need for approval, and the relentless bombardment of the message that she is not enough. 00:03:37:23 – 00:04:15:09 Steve My challenge to you today is to become Sasha, to listen to her as if you are Sasha. Give up your world view and see the world as Sasha sees it. And try. Please try to wrap her and yourself in the soft blanket of understanding, appreciation and respect to her that she is enough. From uphill athlete. I am founder and CEO Steve House and this is Voice of the Mountains where we explore the philosophy and humanity of mountain sports. 00:04:15:11 – 00:04:36:04 Steve This is where we will ask ourselves who we are, what we learn, and who we want to come out of our adventures. I’m your host, Steve House. Today, I’m joined by one of the most accomplished young climbers on the planet, Sasha DiGiulian. Sasha fell in love with the sport at her older brother’s birthday party at a climbing gym when she was six years old. 00:04:36:06 – 00:05:08:08 Steve Within a year, she was competing and by the time she graduated from high school, she was red, pointing five 4/10. She continued climbing while a student at Columbia University and rattled off several U.S. and Pan-American sport climbing championships, adding a world championship gold medal in the all around in 2011. Sasha has dozens of first free ascents around the world to her name and however impressive Sasha is on the rock, she may be even more impressive off of it. 00:05:08:10 – 00:05:31:03 Steve She’s a filmmaker, an activist and an author. Last year, she published her memoir. Taking the Lead, hanging on, letting go and conquering life’s hardest climbs, which is a poignant, candid and beautifully written look into some of the challenges she has faced, including a grueling series of surgeries to reconstruct her hips, which threatened to take climbing away from her. 00:05:31:05 – 00:05:53:21 Steve Most recently, she was featured in a really beautifully done documentary put out by Red Bull Media House called Here to Climb. And that film touches on so many of the interesting topics that I want to explore with Sasha today. And like so many climbers. Sasha has firsthand knowledge of the sport’s inherent dangers and tragedies, which she bravely shares. 00:05:53:23 – 00:06:21:10 Steve And like too many women in our sport. Sasha has had unfortunate firsthand experiences with some of the chauvinistic gatekeeping, which sadly is still prevalent in climbing as well as in our wider culture. Sasha has navigated these trials and challenges with both grace and self-awareness. Being that I’m a climber who’s becoming a bit long in the tooth, I am relieved knowing that with Sasha, the future of our sport is in strong and introspective hands. 00:06:21:12 – 00:06:24:23 Steve Thank you for being here, Sasha. I’m super grateful for you coming on today. 00:06:25:00 – 00:06:28:09 Sasha Hey, thanks so much for having me on today. 00:06:28:11 – 00:06:51:06 Steve Well, before we get started, I just want to be really honest about why I invited you to be on the voice of the mountains. One you’ve experienced a lot, but I’ve just long admired from afar how you’ve managed yourself through all kinds of situations. And I can’t wait to ask you some of these questions. And here are some of the ways you’ve processed some of these things. 00:06:51:08 – 00:07:11:08 Steve The second one is that you’re a lot younger than I am. You’re roughly 20 years younger than I am. And that and I think how you came into the sport and being a woman in the sport gives you perspectives and viewpoints that frankly, I just simply can’t or don’t see. How does that land on you when you hear about those things? 00:07:11:10 – 00:07:32:13 Sasha Yeah, I know that sounds great, and I’ve always really looked up to you and your career, so I’m really honored just to chat. And it’s natural that there’s changes that happen in climbing over even a five year span. So 20 years that make sense that there would be differences in experience as well? 00:07:32:15 – 00:08:01:11 Steve Yeah, absolutely. The theme of our conversation today is be gentle with your failures, experience the fear, feel the euphoria, longing to come back to these ideas with you throughout the show and dig into the relationship that we’ve all had between these three experiences of failure, fear and euphoria. And so any time that something comes up for you around those ideas, that’s the signal to sort of dig in. 00:08:01:13 – 00:08:21:20 Steve I wanted to ask you, because I think you’re one of the first generations of climbers that came into the sport through the climbing gym and not through outdoor climbing. How do you think that has shaped your perception of the sport differently than maybe in my generation, where we learned, you know, outside? 00:08:21:22 – 00:08:58:10 Sasha Yeah, I think that first of all, getting involved in climbing through a climbing gym shows the wide possibility of climbing growth and legs. Why has it really grown over the last ten, 20 years? I’ve been climbing for 25 years now. But the fact that I could grow up in a city and come from a family that knew nothing about climbing, I didn’t even know that it was a competitive sport yet. 00:08:58:10 – 00:09:35:22 Sasha Find my way in this sport and making a profession out of it is, I think, just a really cool indicator of the climbing gym industry’s growth and capacity to really build this sport beyond what it traditionally existed as, which was like you knew about the outdoors, you had some sort of background, there is someone to take you. And so the way in which climbing gyms make climbing possible for kids like me who came from urban environments is pretty exciting. 00:09:35:22 – 00:09:53:15 Sasha And I think it’s also why we’ve seen that trajectory of so many more climbers start getting into it because it’s approachable. It’s like you don’t have to have this wide swath of knowledge in order to participate and then you can learn on the go. 00:09:53:17 – 00:10:11:02 Steve Yeah, and it’s continuing to just explore it, I think. I read that there’s like 300 new climbing gyms opening in North America just this year, that every town, bigger than 10,000 people now is getting a climbing gym, which just takes it literally almost to everyone, right? 00:10:11:04 – 00:10:42:00 Sasha Yeah, When I was like six, seven, eight, my mom would drive me up and down the East Coast, going to climbing gym competitions like I grew up in the D.C. area. So from Rhode Island, Boston down to like Richmond, climbing gyms were so off the beaten path in many cases. Yeah. Yeah. I was just in San Francisco for work and I just walked down the street to like a super busy urban area. 00:10:42:00 – 00:11:03:18 Sasha And there is a climbing gym. Yes, go in and off the busy street. It’s right there. It’s very easy to get to. And so there and even just that change from like warehouses off the side streets to like right center fixtures, I think enables climbing to have more awareness and more participation as well. 00:11:03:20 – 00:11:25:04 Steve Yeah, that’s so true. Like, I remember being to some of the early climbing gyms and they were in sketchy neighborhoods like they were places you were not so sure you wanted to be at night times. You know, I know you wrote about it in your book, but since this is, you know, almost the 2024 Olympics, and by the time we hear this, the Olympics will have happened. 00:11:25:06 – 00:11:31:13 Steve Can you give me your thoughts about having sport climbing in the Olympic Games and how it’s being contested in the Games? 00:11:31:15 – 00:12:16:17 Sasha I’m sort of also excited to see that climbing is just occupying that global stage that’s so important in the world of sport. And it’s just a real signal of the growth that climbing is going through. I worked with the IFC as an athlete representative after my competition era and my job is really to help advocate and make sense of climbing to broader organizations like the IOC, the International Olympic Committee, and that was during the time 2012 to 2016 that climbing was just like making its entrance into the debut of this for existing. 00:12:16:17 – 00:12:54:07 Sasha And that announcement happened in Rio at the Olympics in 2016. I actually got this privilege to like go and be on air kind of talking about climbing and what it meant to be in the Olympics, but also what it is as a sport. Its contest especially was for Tokyo because unlike in traditional competition format for climbing historical routes, speed climbing, lead, climbing and bouldering to start were all kind of just bunched into one. 00:12:54:09 – 00:13:23:23 Sasha And you’ve got speed climbers competing against boulders and that’s totally not normal for competition climbing now going on. What we’ve seen in Paris is that speed climbing is separate from lead climbing and bouldering, which is, I think, a much more natural way to showcase the sport. In an ideal world, we have a three metal discipline and a sport where there’s sport climbing, bouldering and speed. 00:13:24:00 – 00:13:57:02 Sasha But what it means for the sport is more youth participation, more government support, which is huge, more recognition in general, more possibility for young climbers to sign big endorsement deals that enables them to do what they love more and broader and and really push this ethos that I think is incredible about climbing, which is how much you can grow on a personal level and what climbing creates for this connection for the outdoors. 00:13:57:03 – 00:14:26:08 Sasha Because the indoors is a great bridge to the outdoors. It’s how I got into climbing outside through competition. And I do think that climbing is when there’s a sport where you create this really genuine connection for why you care about the environment. Because these places that climbing takes you beyond the competition space are really majestic and sublime and you really notice the changes firsthand. 00:14:26:10 – 00:15:00:12 Steve Yeah, that’s so true. And I love the idea that we’re getting more people outside. I think that there’s, you know, the traditionalist and I would say a lot of people of my generation and older who would be negative and they’d be saying, oh, you know, now the crags are all too crowded because there’s all these people climbing and, you know, all that kind of, you know, you’re smiling because, you know, like this, this narrative that sometimes push without seeing that like, hey, we’re you know, if you love climbing, what does it say about you that you don’t want to share something that you love with other people? 00:15:00:13 – 00:15:08:03 Steve If this is such a wonderful thing and you love it so much, then what right do you have to keep it to yourself and keep other people out of it? 00:15:08:05 – 00:15:39:08 Sasha It’s such a microcosm for life, right? Like it was the first one here. And who gives you the jurisdiction to say this is mine? Like our planet is shared by everyone and we should want everyone to enjoy it. But yeah, I’m smiling because it’s such a thing that climbing goes through. I know that in other industries, it’s like in the surf world, local only and kind of gatekeeping waves and stuff like that is prevalent too. 00:15:39:08 – 00:15:57:06 Sasha But I do think that climbing is unique because there’s so many new areas to go and develop and explore. And so when I hear people complain about like, you know, the Red River Gorge being overcrowded now, like, yeah, of course it is leg as. 00:15:57:06 – 00:15:57:18 Steve It should be. 00:15:57:18 – 00:16:22:12 Sasha Of course it is correct. But there’s also so many incredible places that I’ve gone to even just this year like that. I’m like, I didn’t see a single person. And then, yeah, maybe I had to bring it adrenaline, bullets and new lives and stuff like that. But what a cool experience to then be able to see an economy, like in Columbus. 00:16:22:12 – 00:16:47:17 Sasha I think it’s a really great example of just an economy being built because of the legacy that climbers have built there and brought so much international tourism to you. I do think that climbing is this great vehicle for eco tourism growth as well and helping areas like get new traction off a former industry that maybe wasn’t as sustainable. 00:16:47:19 – 00:17:12:23 Steve One of the things that I think has been really inspiring for me to watch your career has been what you’ve done, not just as a climber, but also as a woman. And this is something that you’ve written about. And in your book, I’ll read a passage she wrote: As a woman in climbing, I occupied two worlds, one defined by strength and grit, the other by beauty and traditional ideas of femininity. 00:17:13:00 – 00:17:43:07 Steve It’s something I still struggle with. And yet you write that. But then and yet you’re part of your big part. I think of all of the making, all the good things happen that you’re just talking about, whether it’s creating a model for eco tourism in a remote island in Greece that has probably almost no other industry to, you know, just make helping get the climbing as a sport and back into the Olympics, all of these things. 00:17:43:07 – 00:18:15:10 Steve And so when I read this, I guess I have to challenge you a little bit and say, like, if you feel like you’re occupying these two worlds, do you also feel like you’re occupying them? Is it a co occupation? Is it a peaceful occupation where you’re comfortable in both and yeah, maybe they are slightly different value sets, but you certainly, at least from the outside, seem to be comfortable in that and leverage it into these other things that are much bigger than yourself, frankly. 00:18:15:12 – 00:18:43:23 Sasha Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting question because my entire career I kind of was cutting against some sort of gray and I didn’t want to be cutting against that. For some reason. I caused a lot of friction, and I think it’s because I am just different. And now luckily that’s more common in climbing. Like we see more people come from a myriad of different backgrounds. 00:18:44:02 – 00:19:15:17 Sasha I think we can only keep increasing and making the sport more approachable for everyone. But my entire existence in climbing, I felt like an outsider and like even I would do climbs that would be recorded and super cutting edge and then have people throw rocks at it and like almost try and find no diminishing aspect to bring down my success. 00:19:15:19 – 00:20:01:16 Sasha And I don’t know if that’s because I’m a woman in the sport that maybe didn’t look the traditional part of what climbing had seen or like how in the world could someone climb 5.14 with nails painted pink? Why would that distract me from doing those climbs? But I think a lot of that resistance came from the fear of the unknown and maybe the fear of the sport changing from a way that, as you mentioned, like some of the traditional gatekeeping side of the sport, felt challenged and like they could be edged out of their traditional space and ownership. 00:20:01:18 – 00:20:30:00 Sasha But the beauty of it is like I can climb and not infringe on someone else’s ability to climb, like just because I’m over here doing my thing, it shouldn’t be like, Oh no, you’re, you’re changing climbing for me. And I think that it’s something that I am always trying to get to the bottom of because I’d love to feel like I fit in or have my place. 00:20:30:00 – 00:21:04:05 Sasha So to answer that question, I think maybe it’s an answer as like not necessarily fitting in in either, but trying to really lean in to who I genuinely and just naturally am and creating that space for the next person that’s like me or feels like me to feel like they have that model to look up to us like it’s okay that I am not one certain way because humans are full of dimension and have the capacity to be more than just one thing. 00:21:04:05 – 00:21:31:15 Sasha And I think that that’s like the beauty of humanity too. So yeah, I think that as a culture within climbing, we could all do a better job of just being a little bit more welcoming to differences, knowing that it’s not a scarcity model mindset. Like just because I introduce a new corporate sponsor to the world of climbing doesn’t mean that that’s all negative. 00:21:31:17 – 00:22:00:12 Sasha Like that creates an industry for the future generations of climbers to be actually saving money and putting away investments and making a lucrative career for the future. And then hopefully the next generation just continues to build like a snowball effect rather than because this person over here has this. That means like that it’s all taken and no one else has that opportunity. 00:22:00:14 – 00:22:18:11 Steve You started this response by saying that you’re different and you’ve always against the grain. Can you tell me a little story from your childhood or your past? Like that would illustrate that like, how did either you feel different or how did you perceive yourself as different? 00:22:18:13 – 00:22:44:00 Sasha Well, I do know, like I kind of my first 5.14 when I was 18 years old, and it was during this year that I had taken this gap between graduated from high school, I did early decision application to Columbia University and I decided to defer my acceptance for a year and just focus on climbing, which I was like, Oh wow, I can climb really hard when you just focus on that. 00:22:44:02 – 00:23:21:07 Sasha But education was always a big part of, you know, just my upbringing and my dad for instance, didn’t really connect with climbing, like he didn’t really understand the sport, but he understood like, I need to go to an Ivy League education for whatever reason. And when I made that decision that I’d go back to school and balance climbing and education, I was met with so many friends, like for such a surprising amount of people that were so shocked that I would throw away my climbing career for university. 00:23:21:09 – 00:23:55:02 Sasha And at the time, like even one of my primary sponsors, Red Bull, and have been working with since I was 17, I was the first active athlete that they had in university at the same time. And I think that that was just like a shift in the industry and a shift in the way that we saw that you can do school while also upholding this role as a professional athlete, though that’s not to say like I didn’t, you know, have ups and downs, like no midterms. 00:23:55:02 – 00:24:21:18 Sasha It was always so hard to balance studying with maintaining a prominent stance and climbing really hard. And and to your point of like gentle with failures, I definitely had to learn to be a little bit more gentle with myself over This is a really busy, crazy time of life. Let me be a little bit more gentle over my performance expectations. 00:24:21:20 – 00:24:30:15 Steve Yeah, that’s a very mature thing to learn at that young age. I would say like I didn’t learn that until I was double. That is probably. 00:24:30:17 – 00:24:34:18 Sasha I learned that too. Only in hindsight. 2020. 00:24:34:24 – 00:24:58:24 Steve I want to ask you a question that, you know, I’m sure you get asked all the time. What advice you would give to younger women climbers trying to find their way in climbing. But I would actually like to ask the question in a different way. I would like to know what advice you would give to men, young men, but also older men like me, who look back at the chauvinism in our sport and are saying, I don’t want to be like that. 00:24:59:04 – 00:25:12:17 Steve I am saying that we don’t want it to be like that anymore. What can we do? Whether it’s my generation or the younger generation as men to support women in climbing in a healthy way? 00:25:12:19 – 00:25:44:10 Sasha I’m so glad that you asked that, because I think that I’m a staunch feminist and that’s under the pretense that feminists just believe that women and men should have equal opportunities. And I think that men are so vital for society and so vital in climbing. They’ve done so many incredible things within our sport. And so I think that the conversation needs to have this like, what can I say to younger boys to get involved? 00:25:44:10 – 00:26:14:10 Sasha And I think that that’s, first of all, believing what men are and embracing who they are and not questioning them means going out and respecting women as individuals within the sport. Just as much as you’d treat another male climber, like if you go climbing on a multi page with a woman, like be trading leads, like why would one person be the only one who’s leading or like one person take on that role? 00:26:14:10 – 00:26:44:04 Sasha If I was even climbing the other day, this is kind of tangential but related and like someone started yelling at me when I was flashing a V8 and I’m like, I’m on the wall. I’m like this person, like, telling me what to do. This is so bizarre. So I think that, like not assuming that you need to coach a woman up the wall, it’s just very basic to just treat a woman like you’d treat a man in a similar way as just another person. 00:26:44:06 – 00:27:11:20 Sasha I think that that’s really important because we’re all individuals trying to do our best. And climbing is such a unique sport. It’s kind of what my article that I just published in the New York Times is about is just that the uniqueness of women’s capacity to perform just as much as men have that capacity to perform is a really unique quality of the sport. 00:27:11:22 – 00:27:42:09 Steve And I would say not just climbing but any ultra endurance events. You know, you’re watching this in ultrarunning, you’re seeing this an alpine is where it’s kind of like the longer and the more endurance the event, the more sort of the starts to become. Even in terms of the differences, the performance differences between genders. But one thing I want to before it escapes me, reiterate what you said is that you want men to just treat women how they would like to be treated. 00:27:42:09 – 00:28:08:16 Steve And it kind of comes back to the golden rule all the time, right? I think that we need more male feminists, especially in our sport. So it’s been hard, I can say, speaking from my experience and speaking as someone who has a very strong mother in my life and who raised a feminist boy, that made it very clear that you know her profession was just as important as my father’s profession. 00:28:08:16 – 00:28:41:04 Steve And, you know, just the whole way I was raised around this, it’s been strange. And I’d say one of the things and this comes back to this core idea of justice, like there’s so many times in life where you see something done to someone, like, for example, a man treating a woman without, you know, the appropriate respect or shouting better when she doesn’t ask for it or something like that, and then not saying something because it doesn’t affect you. 00:28:41:09 – 00:28:59:22 Steve Right. Like we were able to kind of turn away and pretend it didn’t happen. But I think what we need is more people walking up to it and saying, hey, you know, and Will Gadd, when I talk to him, he had a great way of saying this, like not calling people out, but calling them in, like saying like, why is it that you feel like this climber needs better right now? 00:29:00:02 – 00:29:24:03 Steve Because I didn’t hear her ask for that. And it looks like she’s doing pretty good. Maybe she wants to actually try to flash it and actually kind of step up and be a little more proactive in all these little ways because it adds up a lot, I think, and just the whole vibe around the community. I don’t need to tell my horror stories of having witnessed things in my years. 00:29:24:03 – 00:29:27:07 Steve We can do a lot better. 00:29:27:09 – 00:30:14:19 Sasha Yeah, yeah. No, I think that the importance of it is like it’s not just to, you know, a gender bias thing. I think that the golden rule, as you noted, is just with the most important take home as it’s like just treat people as equal and respect them and lead with good intentions. And to your point, no on like men standing up for a woman in times that I’ve gone through that have been extremely difficult in the community, the men that have come to me and checked in, it means a lot when someone says like, Hey, you have my support, because it’s like that extension of climbing, not being gender eyes is just 00:30:14:19 – 00:30:31:24 Sasha like an extension of like we’re here for fostering a good community that treats people well. And so if someone can extend that arm and really reinforce that ethos regardless of your gender, I think that that goes a long way. 00:30:32:01 – 00:30:53:21 Steve Here that, guys, that’s what we’re going to do. I think a lot of people, when they look at someone like you who’s been very successful and it’s also because of that success, oftentimes very public, they think that you don’t have feelings or you aren’t human or that you don’t matter or you’re just sort of this inanimate target that they can, you know, throw darts at. 00:30:53:21 – 00:31:16:14 Steve And, you know, they don’t really forget that you’re actually a person that feels, you know, pain and disappointment and anger and all these other other things. And when we as a community do that, we take down so much more than just that person that we’re targeting. We take down like the whole thing we’re trying to construct here as a community. 00:31:16:14 – 00:31:44:23 Steve And this is what this podcast is actually about. Like, this is where I think Mountain Sports have such an incredible opportunity, and I’m kind of using the broad paintbrush of running and mountaineering and rock climbing and skiing. I think they have so much to teach the rest of humanity because by their nature they’re not necessarily competitive. We’ve been talking about competition, climbing, but that’s sort of this tiny niche within all of these sports and, you know, skiing has competition, etc.. 00:31:45:00 – 00:32:20:02 Steve But all of these sports are all about this process of growth and trying to get better and trying to find the best performance that you have in the thing that you’re trying to do. And it’s not actually about the performance, it’s about who you become to execute that performance. And that’s what life is. Right? And so much of at least North American or Americans kind of society, it focuses on competition and who’s the best and who has the most money or who has the first place, whatever. 00:32:20:04 – 00:32:45:09 Steve And we forget that it’s really the process behind those achievements and who we become behind those achievements that is so important. And if we’re taking potshots at someone like you who is because you’re a shiny target, that destroys the whole ecosystem, that allows all of us to become better versions of ourselves. And so it’s really important we don’t do that. 00:32:45:09 – 00:32:45:24 Sasha Totally. 00:32:46:02 – 00:32:50:02 Steve Sorry, that’s my get off my campaign all by myself. 00:32:50:04 – 00:33:12:04 Sasha You know, I think that like setting the table of like, what’s the energy that we’re putting into this community is important. And so there’s no reason to inject it with negativity. And of course, that’s like a rose colored glasses optimistic way of looking at it. But there’s no reason to not strive for that. So yeah, I completely agree. 00:33:12:06 – 00:33:36:16 Steve I think people who have not done hard rock climbing and I’ve never done roots the grade that you’ve done, but I’ve attempted hard rock climbs and I’ve tried my hardest at hard rock climbing, and people who haven’t done that don’t realize how freaking painful it is. It hurts your fingers, it hurts your toes, the movements are just awkward and difficult. 00:33:36:16 – 00:33:59:07 Steve I mean, that’s all these things are. What makes climbing hard and doing hardship means that you’re going to experience failure and I know in this stage of day and age, it’s a bit of a trope to sort of embrace failure and all that. But there is a difference between not trying hard failing and trying their hardest and then being gentle with that failure. 00:33:59:09 – 00:34:23:18 Steve And those are two very, very different experiences. And when I came up in climbing, nobody talked about being gentle with failure. Failure was the big F. It was really bad. And if you fell off or if you didn’t read a point or you didn’t get to your summit or whatever, like you had slink away like it was, it was a terrible thing. 00:34:23:20 – 00:34:38:16 Steve And we are, I think, changing the discussion around this a little bit. But I think that you must have so many experiences. You tried really hard and failed at something. She tells a story from one of those. 00:34:38:18 – 00:35:08:04 Sasha Yeah. I think the irony of climbing, right? Like if you’re pushing yourself to your limit, then you’re falling all the time and you’re constantly dealing with that big ass of like, not reading, pointing or even just a trip going totally sideways. So I guess like one of the one of the trips that is in here to climb in the documentary is this trip that was a total failure on the surface. 00:35:08:06 – 00:35:35:15 Sasha It was like we couldn’t actually get it. And speaking of support for women and climbing, I couldn’t get the support. rallied around financial support conducting this like an all female expedition to this remote island in Africa, called out to me. And so I was like, Well, I have savings. Like I’ll just finance a project because I think it’s really cool and, and all of that. 00:35:35:15 – 00:36:01:13 Sasha So that already kind of heightened this amount of risk that I’m putting on the table because I was like, okay, I’m going to like to pay for everyone to get there and pay them to create this photography and the video content. Hopefully going to produce. And then everything went sideways. We went and we arrived and like the rock was way worse quality than we thought it was going to be. 00:36:01:15 – 00:36:33:19 Sasha The team dynamic was starting to splinter over, just like risk assessment and whatever everyone felt comfortable with. It was really challenging circumstances to stay in. We are just camping at the base of this jungle peak. It was like a volcanic plug for over three weeks in the rain. There’s no relief. There’s just lots of dirt and heat and humidity and poisonous spiders and poisonous snakes surrounding you. 00:36:33:21 – 00:37:00:12 Sasha So like, there’s never a moment where you like this is beyond type to find like this is actually really enjoyable, but All of those kinds of factors aside, what ended up happening was like we did not succeed on what I really wanted to do. It’s like to free this 5.14 multi pitch climb that existed there and it became very obvious that that wasn’t going to happen pretty early on. 00:37:00:14 – 00:37:23:17 Sasha It was a mixed climb. So all of the gear placements were horrendous because it was just like a waterfall. Like by the time that I was making more progress on the climb, I would climb without a chalk bag because I was like, my chalk bag will just fill up like a watering pouch with like this white paste and better off just not using chalk. 00:37:23:19 – 00:37:52:04 Sasha But after that, and we like, like, don’t succeed on this climb. And whenever we come back, I have this, an immense amount of, like grief almost because leading up to a climb, you kind of plan out everything like it’s your focus. It’s what you’re logistically planning for physically training, for mentally preparing for. And then it’s this loss. 00:37:52:04 – 00:38:14:13 Sasha And I feel that grief actually after success climbs, too. But it’s like this empty space that is no longer there. And then you’re like, Oh, wow, it’s over. Like the end. This was the verdict. And so how you navigate past it, I think is really interesting because to your point on this like gentle with failures, I think I could really be better at that. 00:38:14:13 – 00:38:44:05 Sasha I’m a horrible critic of myself and the words that we do tell ourselves like do permeate into our psyche as we navigate the world. And so I think that’s something that I’m working on. But similar to grief in the way that I deal with losing people that I love or animals that I love, I try to allow myself like this space to mourn for it. 00:38:44:07 – 00:39:11:00 Sasha And so maybe this is dramatic. That’s like your sport climbing, like failing to read, point it. But coming back from a trip in Africa, I’m going to allow myself to be sad. And this is on a spectrum of grief, like losing a parent or a spouse is obviously going to be very different, but it still needs this time of reflection and consideration of what that space really is. 00:39:11:02 – 00:39:36:13 Sasha And then there’s like that time to start moving forward. And it’s like, what do you fill that space with moving forward that enables you to at least move through what sinking sand can feel like? Like when I’ve lost people that I love or when I’ve had a failure on something that I really cared about? You can kind of fall into this cycle of apathy almost, or at least I have. 00:39:36:13 – 00:40:08:24 Sasha That’s just like feeling down and really sad about it. And so that’s when I need something to look forward to, to kind of bring me out of that despair. And so it obviously is pertinent to like a case by case basis. But for me that’s always been kind of the way that I can move forward and take from like a physical failure like this versus like a loss of someone, it’s like you can analyze what went wrong, what ways I could have been better. 00:40:09:01 – 00:40:32:23 Sasha There was tension because I thought there is a way to still like to navigate the weather and kind of had this optimistic perspective staying for longer to wait out the weather. But it was hard to stay there and be there for a longer period of time, and that was not what my partners wanted. So I think that is like a friction of team dynamic as well. 00:40:33:00 – 00:41:05:08 Sasha I learned from that trip that I’m going to know my climbing partners very well before I go on a trip with them because when we left and this I carried into Rio with Brett and Matilde was like, Let’s be vividly clear about what we each see as a success. And like we have different intentions and different expectations. So like, let’s all be aware of them going in so that when things go sideways, we’re actually talking, we have like a base to go back to. 00:41:05:08 – 00:41:46:22 Sasha It’s like, okay, so like mentality, you really wanted this to happen and this is like, how can we get back to that base and find a way in which we can all be satisfied with the end result? And that may I’m right. You look like it was. It was different ways, like dealing with Matilde and I both sent the crux pitch of the client, and I know that Brett went into the climb feeling really like uncertain whether she would climb her hardest red point on this trip, which was the single pitch and and then felt like she was quite close to it. 00:41:46:22 – 00:42:15:07 Sasha And so dealing with that failure of not sending it, but still communicating that we were like a team and we all did it together, I think that there’s just like always friction points of learning from trips to where I can only control myself in the way that I react to it. So it’s always going to lend its way to like lessons to reflect on in that process of dealing with things like what acute failures or massive failures look like. 00:42:15:09 – 00:42:38:19 Steve Hmm It’s interesting that you brought this up and if any of you are listening go watch here to Climb. I made some notes about this part of the film because, you know, I could just feel your mind and your sort of life force, if you will. You just wanted that objective. So bad. And I you know, I lived in that for years. 00:42:38:19 – 00:43:07:06 Steve I like to totally recognize myself in you in that part of the film. You know, I think that that’s part of the experience. It’s people who are really great at something. That’s how they show up. They’re super intense. They want to really it doesn’t always make sense to people who don’t have that same internal experience. And, you know, we’re outsiders in some ways and everyone is different, right? 00:43:07:07 – 00:43:17:22 Steve Like I’ve been on the other side of that, too, where I’ve been on trips where my partner wanted it more badly than I did. It can go different ways, but, you know, was I projecting or did that how it was that how it felt to you in Africa? 00:43:17:23 – 00:43:38:23 Sasha Yeah. No, I’m smiling because I’m like, Wow, you see me today. So it’s really hard. It’s really hard to feel like you’re being held back by a partner that you’re on a trip with. Yeah. And then it’s like at the end of the day, to your point, it’s like, what? What’s humans do? We come off the climb. And where does that matter? 00:43:38:23 – 00:44:16:07 Sasha It’s like I quickly realized, like, I can’t push someone’s limits of risk tolerance. Like, that’s totally inhumane to do. Yeah. And God forbid anything happens if you did like it. But to the point of, just like the theme of growth and women entering the climbing space and stuff like that, as my experiences up until that point, we’re always with male climbers on big wall climbs that had actually like greater spheres of what they are willing to risk than I did. 00:44:16:09 – 00:44:40:03 Sasha So it was almost like a switch where I had never been held back by a variable like that. It was always like, push it to the limit. And maybe naively, like me not knowing even some of the risks that I was taking because I was with climbing partners who may have been like, willing to hang it out there a little bit more than I even knew would be a good idea to. 00:44:40:05 – 00:45:00:04 Sasha But I’ll say, like I was learning in that way, like, Oh, wow, I could. I could be willing to take on more risks than this person. And like, how do I deal with that? Well, so see, like this aspiration kind of just like, wither away into not possible for this time. 00:45:00:06 – 00:45:08:20 Steve So, Sasha, where does that come from? Where does that drive that that I saw in you? What is at the root of that? 00:45:08:22 – 00:45:41:09 Sasha I think I’m just curious, like what is possible. And if I think that something’s possible, it’s really full commitment to find out, I guess. And me being in control of how I can go about achieving a climbing goal. Normally climbing. Yeah. If you’re like with a partner, then you both need to be in that alignment. But my background came from single pitch climbing and competition climbing. 00:45:41:09 – 00:46:06:04 Sasha And like if you want to go and climb a really hard route, like you just need a train, you know, like mentally be prepared. And that’s kind of like an easy recipe. So I think translating that into other aspects of even growing sandbars, I’m like, I know that this is like an idea that we need and I see it and visualize the success of it. 00:46:06:06 – 00:46:32:17 Sasha But then how do you get from like A to Z? And so much of that is like in the minutia of learning and trying things. But I think that once you set your mind on something and you mentally believe that it’s possible, there shouldn’t actually be many variables to hold you back because we’re I mean, the possibility of what we can achieve is pretty infinite if we just navigate it correctly. 00:46:32:19 – 00:46:35:18 Sasha Obviously you’re like, I fail all the time. 00:46:35:20 – 00:47:03:18 Steve So yeah, and I think this is just a failure. You know, I remember a famous quote from Rafael Nadal, the tennis player. He said, like, you know, you lose 50% of the points. He’s talking about tennis. But if you talk about hard sport climbing, I mean, you lose like, you know, 999 to 1, right? Like, I mean, it takes four to read pointing out a hard project. You fall, it’s not 5050 5050. 00:47:03:18 – 00:47:28:22 Steve That would be amazing right? Yeah. Yeah. I want to dig in a little more. So what I heard is that curiosity drives you, that you have a vision for something, whether it’s climbing or sandbars. And as soon as you see that vision, you know that it’s possible to achieve it. What is it that allows you to see the need for another sports bar? 00:47:28:24 – 00:47:57:02 Sasha I think that I am just really passionate about climbing and I’m passionate about entrepreneurship and maybe that. Like obviously you know better than anyone. So I don’t need to, I swear to you. But when you feel really passionate about something, it’s what you want to do. And then you’re going to pour in all that you can towards seeing if it’s possible. 00:47:57:04 – 00:48:22:13 Sasha And I think that in the different chapters and experiences that I’ve had with climbing as well as different chapters outside of climbing, it’s like this is what gets me super excited. And when showing up feels like you’re doing what you really want to be doing, it’s not like I’m punching in a card like, Did I show up to my training? 00:48:22:15 – 00:48:48:17 Sasha I just want to climb that side. And I love that feeling when I’m climbing. And it’s like finding out if I can do something really hard. It’s and that doesn’t always exist in me either. Like There’s grace. It’s my year where I actually don’t want to be, like, bleeding from all of my fingertips and like, just like, having a horrible time, like, just, like, smacking myself on the wall all the time. 00:48:48:17 – 00:49:11:19 Sasha Like it’s fun to do moderate climbs and climb for a volume or change things up to. I think it’s just very dependent on what I feel really excited about. And then not letting the blinders of doubt get in the way. Like just kind of like fixating on like this is the direction that I’m going. I don’t know why I couldn’t do it. 00:49:11:19 – 00:49:34:13 Sasha And getting into that mindset of like and I’m going to apply myself and find out, I guess for me, like where that comes from is just feeling really excited and passionate about what I’m doing because you can’t climb well, it’d be like a death sentence to like, do what I do, like climb every single day and have done it for so long. 00:49:34:13 – 00:50:07:13 Sasha If you didn’t like climbing, like, you would be very miserable. So it’s all very contingent on what you as a human like to do. And then the more you like it, the more you’re going to keep showing up for it. The second that you don’t like it as much, I think that’s when, like you see that trajectory of wanting to participate in it and then seeing the fruits of the labor and like the success or whatever you want to call it, like reflect on that as well. 00:50:07:15 – 00:50:52:16 Sasha But I think when I’m climbing well or when I feel like I’m climbing well, it’s so baked into this feeling of just sublime happiness with myself. Like there’s no feeling like it, like to get to the top of a climb that you’ve really, like, dreamed of doing. Like you feel physically satiated, mentally satiated. And I would argue to say that like that euphoria that you feel is hard to find in other aspects of life, like even when I, you know, on paper succeeded in some other avenue, it doesn’t feel like it feels like being the change to your project. 00:50:52:18 – 00:51:09:07 Sasha I don’t know, maybe that changes, but I think that it’s something that’s pretty peculiar about climate as well as like that just and maybe that’s what you achieve as an athlete and it could be copy and paste into any sport of like just total bliss. 00:51:09:09 – 00:51:40:22 Steve You know, you said in the beginning of our discussion of our conversation, you said that, you know, you you’ve always felt different, that you much of your career, you’re kind of against the grain and you are a person who shows up and has a vision and as you put it, puts on these blinders. You don’t see the doubts and go and make it happen through passion, through just showing up as Sasha DiGiulian in your most authentic self, right? 00:51:40:22 – 00:52:05:05 Steve Like what I like about your answer is because you know, that’s what I hear is you’re just doing you this is who I am and this is how I shop and this is what I care about and this is what I see. And you’re making that happen. They’re exercising your agency in the world. And I think that, you know, back to our thread about treating others how you would like to be treated. 00:52:05:07 – 00:52:28:15 Steve There are a lot of people who can’t do that for themselves. They can’t show up as their true selves. They don’t feel comfortable. They’ve been told they’re inadequate, that they’re, you know, not worthy for whatever reason. They got that message somewhere. And so when they see someone who is showing up as themselves and being successful at it, it causes them to just go crazy, right? 00:52:28:16 – 00:52:52:13 Steve Like they can’t handle it. And it’s not about you or about me, it’s about them. And I hope that, you know, you are doing that and showing up as you exercising your agency in the world, that you know, that just that for me creates more light, you know, And then there are people that will respond with negativity. But that’s not about you. 00:52:52:13 – 00:53:18:08 Steve It’s about them. And that, you know, we all need more light. And, you know, you talked about joy because we’ve sort of been pulling in these threads like failure of fear a little bit and joy. And one of the themes that has come up time and time again in these conversations has been this idea of integrating different experiences into the same human experience. 00:53:18:10 – 00:53:49:11 Steve And, you know, as you said a couple of times and I’ve pointed out that rock climbing can be extremely painful, especially hard rock climbing. And like you just described, the sort of euphoria that you feel after that you don’t even know is possible in any other kind of form of sport. Or maybe it is, but you don’t have an experience that and you’re experiencing in that moment, in that single climb, you’re probably experiencing pain, you’re probably experiencing fear on some level, if nothing else. 00:53:49:11 – 00:54:12:13 Steve The fear of failing and some quotes in air quotes. And then you’re experiencing joy when you do it, I want to make sure that we remember as a community to recount. We remember the experiences of euphoria and not always just talk about the pain and the suffering and the fear, but the joy and the laughter and the euphoria. 00:54:12:13 – 00:54:29:10 Steve That’s a lot of the light that keeps us all afloat and keeps us going forward and driving and these things. I mean, as a small business owner, I sometimes have days where I’m like, Oh my God, Like I was staring into the abyss, like, wondering how this is all going to work out and wondering and doubting all my decisions. 00:54:29:12 – 00:55:01:02 Steve And then other days I get like an email from an athlete who has just done their climb or their race or whatever, and they’re so happy. And it was this huge thing that helped them achieve something in their life. And it’s like, okay, yeah, it’s totally worth it. Like, you know, and, and both are true. And so many times we are trying to have this conversation where we’re acting as if they’re different experiences, fear and joy and or pain and joy and actually can be part of the same experience. 00:55:01:04 – 00:55:22:00 Sasha That’s like the yin and the yang. Like if you don’t have the down, you don’t have the up. Yeah. And you need that duality. It’s like the pain and the euphoria, the suffering, the joy, like all of that. I mean, it’s kind of like if you are, if you were given a platter of chocolate every night. Yeah. 00:55:22:02 – 00:55:57:19 Sasha You wouldn’t find it as a tree when you got that piece of chocolate. Like it’s, I think it’s like everything is in juxtapositions of like just moderation, but also like that balance of, like the bliss that you feel at the top of the climb is because it provided all that trouble to get there. Yeah. And the unknown. And so I think that, like, the bigger the reward comes from, like the, the higher amount of like you wanted it and you suffered through it and like you tried hard and you applied yourself and you sacrificed. 00:55:57:21 – 00:56:08:14 Sasha And when you sacrifice something so much and then you realize that success at the end of it, whatever that looks like, I think that that’s all the sweeter. 00:56:08:16 – 00:56:22:13 Steve What would you say to that person that can’t get past the doubt? They maybe have the vision and they see the steps, but they’re sort of frozen. I think a lot of people find themselves there. Yeah, I’m sure you have at some time or another. 00:56:22:18 – 00:57:00:04 Sasha I do for sure. And I think that that’s where setting a smaller goal might help, like having something that’s going to bring that sense of achievement that maybe is like shorter forecasted when you like if you’re setting out this big training program and you’re like at the end of the year in January or December, I want to do this, but there’s no clear line of sight towards getting there, then the doubt can become very loud versus if you get give yourself like those little wins along the way. 00:57:00:06 – 00:57:13:24 Sasha I think that feeling that can can really bring in like that resurgence of feeling like you’re on the right track or feeling like you’re getting something out of all the discipline that you’re showing up to each day. 00:57:14:01 – 00:57:36:19 Steve I’ve done a lot of work, you know, I’ve had throughout my adult life struggles with depression. And one of the things I learned in therapy at one time was this idea of just doing the smallest possible thing. And often what that is for me when I’m in my funk is just like just cleaning the house, just and sometimes cleaning the house is too much. 00:57:36:19 – 00:57:59:03 Steve It’s just like, okay, just going to tidy up the area around the couch or I mean, I’m going to actually do the dishes, you know, just it’s like, what is the tiniest little positive action that you can take? And it’s amazing how many times in my life cleaning the house has kind of been the thing that got me out of, you know, a depressive episode before it got bad. 00:57:59:03 – 00:58:18:23 Steve And I think it’s the same with these goals. Just find the smile and sort of what you were saying. Just find that smallest right action that you can take towards that goal. And then the next one, and then the next one and then the next one. You know, as long as it’s aligned with where you want to go, that’s so powerful. 00:58:19:00 – 00:59:00:19 Sasha I also feel like getting out of that funk, like getting out of because I too can relate to that statement. And like during my hip surgeries, were some of the darkest times for me because like, I’ve got this background of doing sports every single day and like having movement. So part of my life and then all of a sudden there was like five surgeries deep and six months completely off exercise and like, you don’t see that light like, and you have to create that light for yourself and see those the, the ability to like I mean, it was when I wrote my book and when I really laid the foundation for bars was like, 00:59:00:21 – 00:59:28:24 Sasha I can’t do anything else. I need to create joy. But yeah, it’s also stepping out and spending time with people that you love I think is really important. Like even if it’s like going and meeting a friend for a coffee when like, you don’t want to leave your house because you feel really sad and down and, and all of the things that can come with depression or just even just like mental funks, the way in which we interact with, like you said, cleaning your house. 00:59:28:24 – 00:59:58:22 Sasha Like, I think that clutter can be really dissolved, contagious. I think that lack of human connection can be disadvantageous towards getting out of it too. Like our world is so connected but disconnected at the same time. Like me talking to someone on Instagram is not me talking to someone. And I think remembering that and like the relationships of like, imagine if we just like, didn’t have dinner in person with people or like things like that. 00:59:58:22 – 01:00:17:20 Sasha Like how depressing. And so remembering that like human connection and, and, and doing things with others. I think that’s why at the time of COVID was so challenging for a lot of people outside of health scares, just like lack of connection. And that breeds so much animosity too. 01:00:17:22 – 01:00:44:10 Steve Yeah. You know, professional climbing I think is something that, well, first of all, it didn’t even exist when I was some 20 something years old. And, you know, now it is a thing and it’s intense. It’s hard. I think people look at it from the outside and think, oh, I like these people. They just get of course they’re good. 01:00:44:10 – 01:01:09:08 Steve They just get to climb all the time or whatever. But I think few people realize how much actual work goes into being a professional climber. And I’m talking about the work of emails of being in the airplane, going to events, you know, doing the product feedback, going for pictures, like all the things that are just actually not climbing or training for climbing what you’re doing. 01:01:09:10 – 01:01:14:04 Steve How do you keep that joy in that laughter alive in that intense world? How do you do that? 01:01:14:06 – 01:01:32:08 Sasha It’s funny that you outline that because I feel so connected to that statement right now. Just I’m sure coming off of a film tour where like, gosh, I would love nothing more than to be what you guys think of. Just all you do is climb rocks and like, now it’d be fantastic. I would love that. 01:01:32:08 – 01:01:33:04 Steve Sign me up. 01:01:33:06 – 01:02:16:04 Sasha But also like, yeah, yeah, exactly. I think that that’s what you do when you’re not a professional climber. And then I’m like, I’m so excited for when I can be providing this job for myself that also doesn’t come with the accessories of being a pro climber. But what I will say to answer the question is like when I go and I get to interact with a lot of young climbers, a lot and I get to see that that excitement and that fire and not like just like permeability of like taking what your presence, what you’re saying and like with the way that you’re approaching climbing or are talking about something else and like 01:02:16:04 – 01:02:38:21 Sasha absorbing it and and you can see that that is affecting the young boys and girls of the future. Like, that’s a very palpable feeling for me that I feel very purpose driven after like why was I one of my last stops here to climb the film tour? And there is like a group of young girls who came out. 01:02:38:21 – 01:03:08:23 Sasha There’s like nine of them and they all came together and one of the little girls, well, first of all, they all wore pink, which was really sweet. And they’re like, like, embracing that feeling. So confidence and like, this is very cool. Like, I would have been shy to do that before. But then one of the little girls in the audience after the film died was like, Do you still feel like you have a connection with your dad? 01:03:09:00 – 01:03:17:15 Sasha And does he interact with you in any way? Is now that he’s past? And I was like, this question came from a nine year old. 01:03:17:17 – 01:03:18:16 Steve Wow. 01:03:18:18 – 01:03:48:03 Sasha Like, what a crazy thing. And I think that just like the level of awareness and the interaction and like minds of our young coalition of people is just exciting. It’s like we can see the work that we’re putting in towards making climbing this more approachable, more welcoming place to be reflected. And just like the youth and the thoughtfulness and all of that, it does excite me a lot. 01:03:48:03 – 01:04:01:19 Sasha It makes me feel like I don’t know what the future looks like in climbing, but I know that it’s super bright and I know that what we even seemingly think is possible or not possible right now will be totally redefined. 01:04:01:22 – 01:04:20:16 Steve Yeah, for sure. In my generation the idea was to do the hardest climbing you could and not talk about it. Ideally the most dangerous climbing you could do, and then sit back and sort of wait for people to kind of go out and do it and then be like, Whoa, that guy was really hardcore because he did this thing. 01:04:20:16 – 01:05:01:03 Steve We tried to do it, but we couldn’t do it or we fell off or it was too dangerous or whatever. And now we’re in this place and I think maybe this is partially social media, but it’s also partially just culturally where we are, where we’re much more transparent about our process. And I just want to say, you know, you know, you’ve taken such an honest path and whether it was calling out the bullying, you’ve dealt with to inviting people in as you go through these challenges, like, you know, your surgeries and and then coming out of that, having created like a company and doing some of these things and let’s face it, like 01:05:01:05 – 01:05:26:14 Steve Sometimes all of us are wrong and nobody’s perfect. And I just think it’s really brave what you’ve done in so many ways. And I think that if these nine year old girls are seeing you go through, you know, that’s quite an example that you’re giving them through, you know, not just your climbing, but how you’re dealing with this really serious adversity. 01:05:26:16 – 01:05:29:13 Steve How are they going to build on that? 01:05:29:15 – 01:06:01:03 Sasha I see a two fold I’m sorry. It’s like one take in the history of climbing because Lynn and I have talked about that a lot. Lynn, who’s also in the film of just like the difference in the generational way in which, like we even share about our climbs and I actually talk about this with the other women who are part of the Women’s Sports Foundation too often because women in the sports landscape have never had the same media platform as men in sports. 01:06:01:05 – 01:06:31:09 Sasha And so now that we have social media to share our adventures, to share what we’re achieving, I would say that, like you do, become your own type women in a way, like you’re sharing achievements, but also like it’s interesting because finally you can and finally you can create your own audience who actually cares about it. And maybe in the past, like a lot of a lot of female climbers go and achieve these great things. 01:06:31:14 – 01:06:52:05 Sasha Yet then someone over here who’s like a male climber is going to be written about and like his climb will be what’s at the center of the magazine. And sometimes I’ve heard the critique over like, is it cool that we’re now hyping our climbs? If you have to be your own advocate to share what you’re achieving, then go ahead and do it. 01:06:52:05 – 01:07:15:12 Sasha Like creating your own sphere of people that connect with your journey. And so to parlay that into the second half of the answer, it’s like, what can I provide for the young girls who look up to me? I can provide this space that’s welcoming, this space that’s like you’re embraced, you have a place to go and be your best self. 01:07:15:12 – 01:07:49:10 Sasha Go and pursue being a track star while also a professional climber. Be, you know, a pianist or a violinist, and also care about the outdoors, like creating a multi dimensional existence for yourself. And don’t be afraid by the fact that so many people will tell you like you can’t do that because the haters can be so loud. But then the positive echo chamber of support can also grow and be louder. 01:07:49:12 – 01:08:15:03 Sasha And so I think that, like I would love to create an antidote to the negative. And I know that in my career like I’ve, you know, read it because we’re all like permeable all and I read things that people say that are meant to like this notion of like, oh, it’s all sunshine and rainbows and like, almost like knocking me for being too optimistic. 01:08:15:03 – 01:08:36:17 Sasha And I’m like, it’s not a book. I think that what we choose to share is going to be a filtered version of what we do share. And I try to be as honest and transparent as possible, but I’m not going to be constantly playing in the negative or like what these hard situations that we all go through are. 01:08:36:19 – 01:09:11:02 Sasha And that’s something that I think I could do more of maybe like ADD, but anyways, to the point of like when we think about anything, my mindset has always been like focus on the positive, focus on what you can control and focus on. Like a way in which to lift up the future rather than try and knock down any sort of excuses as to what’s holding you back is the more you focus on that, then the less you can actually just grow and like the more free you can be from the noise. 01:09:11:04 – 01:09:45:00 Sasha So I don’t know a space, ideally for Fred, the youth and for even people who are older than me, just to feel like they have that voice and they have the support and they have a platform I think is really important. And it’s something that I didn’t really look up to in climbing when I was growing up because I didn’t necessarily find that point of connection and like point of, of near emulation, like, of just like this person is putting out this to their audience. 01:09:45:00 – 01:09:52:09 Sasha And I want to, I want to like, embody that ethos and also have that for myself in my own creative, personal way. 01:09:52:10 – 01:10:10:03 Steve So you’ve done so much in your life. You’ve been a national champion, you’ve climbed these incredible roots, you’ve written a book, you’ve produced a film, you’re a successful entrepreneur and Boris and perhaps you’re too young to have given this much thought. But how do you want to be remembered? 01:10:10:03 – 01:10:37:20 Sasha Sasha I think that I’d love to be remembered as someone that made the outdoors and climbing in general lifted and more welcoming. And if I can extend some fraction of inspiration that I’ve gleaned from the female athletes that I look up to, then that’s incredible. But I don’t know yet. Like, I don’t know how I’d want to be remembered. 01:10:37:20 – 01:10:57:15 Sasha And I hopefully just act like a good person and steward for the community because there’s always going to be people that and hopefully, hopefully so below any sort of achievements that I’ve had in my career of the water to near irrelevancy. But that’s progress in the sport. So that’s very exciting. 01:10:57:17 – 01:11:06:01 Steve You cheer for that, right? You root for that. How can our listeners connect with you and follow you on social media and so on? 01:11:06:07 – 01:11:13:03 Sasha All my social activities are very simple. It’s just my name, Sasha, to join on. I’m even on TikTok now. 01:11:13:05 – 01:11:32:19 Steve All right, so we got Tik Tok, Instagram, all those, all the socials. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for the time today, Sasha. It’s been a really great conversation and I’m sure that you’re going to inspire a lot of people and teach a lot of people a lot of wisdom in this conversation today. So thank you very much. 01:11:32:21 – 01:11:39:15 Sasha Yeah, I appreciate you having me on. I feel like we could talk for ages, so I really appreciate the conversation. 01:11:39:19 – 01:12:08:08 Steve I’m sure we’ll speak again. Okay. Voice of the Mountains is a production of Uphill Athlete Inc. Our producer is Alyssa Clark, Sound Engineering and editing is done by Christoph Lukasser, voice of the mountains is scripted and hosted by me – Steve House, with research and writing help from Jamie Lyko. Thank you for listening to Voice of the Mountains.