Zone 1 or 2 immediately after Strength Training

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    Topic
  • #57381
    asmiller0
    Participant

    Hello,

    I am a reader of TftNA and putting together my first official periodization plan for mountaineering pursuits. I have some endurance experience but never in a structured training plan and most of my adult life I have been following more Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy lifestyle.

    My question is: will zone 1 training be diminished if I do it immediately following 60 minutes of Max Strength training? I have been monitoring my heart rate the last couple weeks during strength training and it rarely gets into Zone 2 (because the sets are so short). Will this method provide the benefit of being in a fasted state as is recommended in the book?

    The reason is because I work over night and the most convenient time to train is shortly after I wake up (around 1:30 pm, before my kids come home from school). I don’t have a way to split training into AM and PM. Also, my gym (the only one with climber training tools) closes at 12 pm on weekends, a little early for my night owl schedule.

    Thanks for any input.

  • Keymaster
    Shashi on #57406

    Welcome to the Uphill Athlete forum.

    How many hours are you planning to train every week? If this is your first structured training cycle, you should be able to do strength and aerobic workouts on separate days and still meet your weekly training volume.

    Your body needs to recover after the Max Strength session and I don’t think you will have an optimal Z1 aerobic workout immediately after the strength session.

    Fasted training is only recommended for low-intensity aerobic workouts and not for strength training. I would recommend reading more about fasted training here.

    There is some good discussion on fasted training here as well.

    Participant
    asmiller0 on #57411

    Hey Shashi. Thanks for your input.

    To be clear, I have been following structured workout plans for close to 20 years now, but almost exclusively for weight lifting/ bodybuilding. It’s hard for me to give up all my strength training to replace it with just aerobic, but as the book says, “something has to give”, and I am willing to forego strength training to become a better alpinist. Total work out time per week is easily 8 hours or more with my long hike day and climbing day.

    I have always lifted 3 or 4 times a week. Currently, I am working with a trainer who specializes in rock climbing and he has me in the gym strength training 4 times a week. I started introducing zone 1 aerobic training again in 20 – 25 minute sessions immediately following each workout (total time in the gym is about 90 minutes). But after this week, my plan is to cut the strength training in half (2 days per week), as long as that will suffice for my upper body training– (I hired the trainer to help me get past my Medial epicondylitis, so I want to be sure 2 days per week will still help my “Climber’s Elbow”).

    Thanks again. I will look into the references you shared.

    Participant
    asmiller0 on #57505

    If I set out to do Zone 1 training, what is the effect if my heart rate elevates into Zone 3 for a minute or two throughout the training? Does that diminish the base training effect?

    Keymaster
    Shashi on #57541

    Here is a recent topic that might answer your question –

    Ok to spike into Z3?

    Participant
    asmiller0 on #57689

    One final question to help me understand. I’ve scoured 30 pages of the training forum and haven’t found a similar question. I still don’t have a concrete answer to my original question. Though I am taking the advice and splitting strength and aerobic days, I still want to understand the science behind the reasoning.

    If my outdoor climbing location has a 30 minute approach, would the hike in and/or out be a beneficial Zone 1 or 2 aerobic session if my heart rate was elevated during climbing?

    Thank you!

    Participant
    LindsayTroy on #57721

    My understanding is that whatever work you do first should be the main training modality. So if your goal is to improve strength, first do strength training then do aerobic training. However if your primary goal is to improve aerobically, then do your Z1/Z2 training first. You will be tired and less able to absorb the training doing one right after the other, which is why you want to do the primary training first. But that said, if you’ve been lifting weights for a long time, doing it after aerobic training should be fine to maintain strength without getting injured

    Keymaster
    Shashi on #57751

    Thanks Lindsay.

    If my outdoor climbing location has a 30-minute approach, would the hike in and/or out be a beneficial Zone 1 or 2 aerobic session if my heart rate was elevated during climbing?

    You can count the 30-minute hike in/out as part of your Zone 1/2. Can you clarify what you mean by hike in/out being beneficial with respect to heart rate while climbing?

    Participant
    asmiller0 on #57753

    Can you clarify what you mean by hike in/out being beneficial with respect to heart rate while climbing?

    Just like if I was training Z1/2 aerobic specifically to form my Base fitness, it would be detrimental to the Base training to go into higher heart rate zones. I just want to know if a high heart rate just before starting a Z1/2 session would have that same negative effect in regards to BASE fitness. Or is a 30 min Z1/2 session beneficial to Base no matter when it’s done.

    Thanks Sashi and Lindsay for your feedback..

    Keymaster
    Shashi on #57796

    The 30 min Z1/2 session as part of the hike in/out would still be beneficial. I would think that the 30-minute hike in would probably be better as you are fresh and not as exhausted relative to hike out.

    Participant
    Mariner_9 on #57819

    “I just want to know if a high heart rate just before starting a Z1/2 session would have that same negative effect in regards to BASE fitness”

    My approach was the same as Linday’s, so on strength training days (either general strength or max strength), I would do the strength training first then the aerobic base training (stair climbs).

      My HR generally came back down fairly quickly and so I wasn’t going into the aerobic base training with an elevated HR

    .

    Also relevant: the aerobic training after strength training was only twice per week and a total of two hours, so was a relatively small portion of my overall training volume.

    HTH.

    Spectator
    Scott Johnston on #57840

    Sorry I’m late to this discussion. I want to address the original poster’s question.

    My question is: will zone 1 training be diminished if I do it immediately following 60 minutes of Max Strength training?

    The short answer is “NO” the training effect of your aerobic base training will remain the same if you do it immediately after a strength workout. BUT and I think this might be more important to you. The Z1 run WILL diminish the training effect of the strength workout.

    A little, very little, science: Training in the lower intensity zones 1 and 2 triggers a cascade of effects known as the AMPk (Adenosine Monophosphate Kinase) pathway. This results in a bunch of changes at the genetic level whereby there is an upregulation of the genes responsible for mitochondrial biogenesis, aerobic enzymes increased capillary density in the working muscles and more. All these lead to an increase aerobic capacity of those muscle fibers.

    The cascade that gets triggered by strength training is very different. It is known as the mTOR pathway. It upregulates genes associated with improved neurologic signal transmission to the muscles, increases muscle fiber size and number.

    Well, it turns out that the AMPk pathway also has a dampening effect on the mTOR pathway. Such that the full benefits of the strength work are not realized. This is what weight lifters and body builders do not run. Engaging in extensive bouts of aerobic exercise is counter productive for them. The opposite effect of mTOR dampening the AMPk pathway seems to be no where near as strong.

    This is what we typically separate the strength on different days from the aerobic base work. Or at least by several hours.

    I hope this helps.

    Scott

    Participant
    asmiller0 on #57841

    it turns out that the AMPk pathway also has a dampening effect on the mTOR pathway… The opposite effect of mTOR dampening the AMPk pathway seems to be no where near as strong.

    Thank you, Scott! That is exactly the information I was looking for and the science is fascinating. A follow-up question: Does the dampening effect on the mTOR pathway only last for a short time (few hours) or does it effect the entire training for a bodybuilder?

    Thanks everyone for your input and sharing your experiences. For the most part, I am separating my workouts completely now, but it’s good to know that I can address weak areas in short duration before an aerobic session if I am crunched for time.

    Participant
    nalle4 on #60616

    How about the opposite, how does some strength/weight lifting after an 1 hour Z1-2 endurance session affect the training effect?

    I almost always do my strenghth training after endurance sessions, should I stop doing that? (My priority is endurance)

    Keymaster
    Jane Mackay on #60618

    Nalle4, from what I understand after three rounds of the Female Uphill Athlete group training programme (coached by Carolyn and Maya), if you do strength after aerobic, you will get less benefit from the strength training bc you will already be fatigued. (If I got this wrong, it’s not Carolyn and Maya’s fault – it’s the fault of my memory!)

    Also, now taking into account what Scott wrote, it seems you will definitely get less benefit because the dampening effect of the AMPk pathway on the mTOR pathway lasts for several hours (I infer from Scott saying they always separate strength and aerobic by at least several hours).

    In fact, Carolyn advised us even not to do a full PT session on the aerobic days but instead to work it in on the strength days.

    Participant
    nalle4 on #60628

    Thanks for the reply, do you recall if they mentioned wether the dampening effect was local or systemic (i.e only in local muscle groups affected by the training, or has it a dampening effect on the whole body).

    I mainly do a short (20 minutes) upper body strength training session (dumbbells, chins, dips) after easier aerobic sessions to stay fit for some occasional ice climbing, since I dont want to waste a dedicated session. Perhaps I need to rethink about this.

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