Is that a threshold?

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  • #44610

    pre-story: I bought both uphill-athlete-training-books and work through the 2nd right now. Wondering if and how much I suffer from ADS …

    I still haven’t found the time and motivation to do the specific tests you suggest, and in no way I think that they won’t deliver the requested results 😉

    Yesterday I did some fast (in my world) mountain tour: around 20kms in sum, with 1600m up, up to UIAA II … basically a mix of some more or less flat run in the beginning, then a hefty ascent of maybe 40 minutes (steep walk), then the easy climbing to the top (another ~40mins) … then descend and up to a 2nd peak …

    I did that in a rather fast mode. No pauses until 1st peak aside from putting the poles away and catching breath. So I assume I mostly moved at or around my lactate threshold when ascending, right?

    Somewhere (Friel) I read that cyclists use time trials over 5 or 10k for determining that threshold, is that appliable to the described workout as well?

    Additional info:

    My Garmin F6 (used with chest strap) tells me these times in zones (for the described run):

    Z5 11%
    Z4 17%
    Z3 14%
    Z2 22%
    Z1 30%

    yes, these zones are still only calculated around a lactate threshold of 156 bpm. I am unsure if the Garmin software took that out of my training history or however that came into the game. Tried their own test lately, with every 4min running faster .. came up into the range of 165-175bpm … slowed down and the watch couldn’t determine the threshold … oh my.

    Maybe I should mention and/or repeat: male, 46, RHR around 40 (some days I also saw 38), max HR around 175 (approximately, to be updated some day).

    Thanks for any feedback, today I try hard to not do too much and take it easy 😉

  • Inactive
    Anonymous on #45727

    These are impossible to interpret without reliable threshold tests.

    As mentioned, use the tests you did already and test as suggested in the future.

    Don’t downplay your efforts. For 99.9999999% of the population, there will always be someone faster or stronger, and that is irrelevant to your progress. Compare yourself only to yourself and pursue a (very) long-term strategy. You’ll be amazed at the changes that you can make over 5-15 years.

    sgw on #45745

    Thanks for the positive words, you are absolutely right!
    Although I was hoping for more mid-term changes as well 😉

    Yes, I need more of the tests, I know, just an additional thought/question:

    I did lots of road cycling over the last years, that contained many hours of Z1/Z2 work. That should have built a rather good base, right?

    Anonymous on #45764

    I did lots of road cycling over the last years, that contained many hours of Z1/Z2 work. That should have built a rather good base, right?

    …for cycling, yes. But from what I’ve seen in clients, much of it will not transfer over to running. especially the durability component that is necessary for running.

    sgw on #45782

    That matches my impression as well. On the bike I have way more endurance than at running.

    Tried another run today, got too fast in the 2nd half (I was distracted).
    I just post the link:

    I feel as if I somehow improve over the last weeks, a bit more speed below AnT, I assume.

    sgw on #45890

    What about this one:


    Did it today morning, in a fasted state (cup of black coffee). Yesterday I rested after a rather intense tour the day before.

    Today I repeated that flat run, set an alarm at 139 bpm (to stay below that) and felt quite good doing that. I think that I am already “fat adapted” from my road cycling over the years, but it might be interesting to shift some of my runs into the morning when I can try them fasted. Normally I am not the morning run guy at all.

    Thanks for any feedback!

    Anonymous on #45891

    This looks good, and Pa:HR is only 2.2% so well within your aerobic threshold (AeT). (On flat runs, you can go by the Pa:HR metric that TP automatically calculates.)

    If you do another one, be sure to warm up gradually for 15′ before starting the 60′ test. Also be careful with the intensity at the beginning. There was quite a spike in this last test.

    sgw on #45892

    Great, thanks. I also used the mentioned “Cardio Drift” app on my watch, it shows Pa:HR updated every minute while I run. I noticed that it was <5% but decided to keep below those 139 bpm mostly (which so far is the lower boundary of Z3 in my watch).

    Should I adjust that zone boundary or threshold a bit higher?

    I plan to do more of these mostly Z2 runs for the next weeks, with one or two more intense days per week.

    Thanks for the help.

    Anonymous on #45918

    Should I adjust that zone boundary or threshold a bit higher?

    Yes. When drift is <5% that indicates your aerobic threshold, not anaerobic. Your AeT is the ceiling for Z2 while your anaerobic is the floor for Z4. So in between the two is Z3.

    sgw on #45923

    Great, feels like an improvement 😉
    I paused today and maybe try an AnT-test tomorrow.

    For now I use 140 bpm as Aet and 156 as AnT (156 somehow comes from the Garmin).
    Thanks a lot so far.

    sgw on #46125

    I decided to start following the suggested training plan for a level 1 runner targeting his first 50k run. Week 2, so not too much to tell so far 😉

    Maybe I should start a new thread but for now I just reply here.

    I wonder how to handle the “fun” tours while following the plan.

    I want to do this or that summit now and then, can’t stay in Z1/Z2 for weeks now … maybe I *should*, yes, but for example we have an extended weekend here this week and I’d like to drop in some “real” mountain when the weather is fine.

    on that day I won’t do any additional run, sure … how to handle these days?

    I know how I *would* approach that … do it, rest accordingly … do some easy day or days after that. But I would like to hear what the coaches say here.

    Anonymous on #47774

    Go slower? 🙂

    Below AeT you’re saving money; above, spending it.

    Eventually, if you build your base big enough, long days will rarely get into Z3. IN the meantime, you have to choose what to prioritize.

    sgw on #49384

    I re-read some of Scott’s replies now and then to learn and see if I improve or not.

    That observation definitely is true, the long runs rarely get me into Z3 now anymore.

    Seems a combination of:

    * learned to pace … run slower at first … getting faster with same HR over the weeks
    * body adapts … AeT moved up … more efficiency in movement

    As described in the books etc !

    Last week was the 2nd S-week in the 50k-runners-plan, and the long run wasn’t scary anymore:

    average HR was 143, some spikes (small ascents, and a sprint to the half marathon “line”)

    As I set my AeT to 142 this means my watch tells me I was in Z3 for 65% of the time.

    Is it just me wishing or doing wrong, or should I adjust AeT up a bit?

    Cardio Drift (from the app) was around 6% at the end, 5% and sometimes below before I did that HM sprint …

    The 2nd long(er) run was only 17k, I had to fight through a snow-covered bike path for the first half .. way more power needed, nice extra exercise, decided to return along the road then.

    Next week is another S-week, so I try to find out if and what to adjust, thanks.

    Anonymous on #49935

    If your zones are set correctly, then 65% of your time in Z3 is way too much unless it was a race.

    If you know your max, AnT, and AeT threshold heart rates, you can plug them in here:

    Uphill Athlete Training Zones Heart Rate Calculator

    sgw on #49937

    Yeah, that’s why I assumed and asked if my AeT might have moved up since I started all this. I *think* it’s maybe 142 or more. But yes, I need to do another test soon.


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